G/F'S Name On Title Deed (Chanote) Land Office Keeps Saying 'Mai Dai'

[bifftastic]

Hi there,

I need some adivce please, I find myself in a strange situation.

Well, strange to me as I wasn't expecting it!

Just bought a house, small bungalow up in Chiang Saen, for 350,000 baht. Had a pre-sale agreement which was all signed up by the g/f, got all the money together, handed it over, papers all signed up, local officials, witnesses etc. Chanote handed over, so far so good.

G/f went to the land office to have her name put on the Chanote (adding an usufruct later when I go to Thailand in April)

Land office said 'mai dai'

They won't, apparently, put her name on it until I sign paperwork saying I understand it's her money, I can't have any claim on it etc.

Now, I would expect this if we were already married, due to the conflict in the laws regarding 50/50 split in assets if/when divorcing and the inability for foreigners to own land in Thailand.

I wasn't expecting it in our situation because we're not married yet.

We need to have her name on the Chanote asap as we need to borrow some money from the bank on the strength of it.

I've been in touch with friends in Bangkok who's family have done many land transfers in the past, know officials in the department, reasonably high up, who say that the reason is because it's shared savings ie. the money came from outside Thailand, but they also add that the amount for which this is necessary is 2million baht and upwards and they don't understand why this particular official is insisting on my presence before the Chanote can be in her name.

So, back and forth to the land office, a couple of phone calls from the friends in Bangkok to said office...

'mai dai' !!!

The suggestion I have been left with, (other than flying out to Thailand just to sign a piece of paper then fly back to the UK!) is to have the aforementioned paperwork signed (by me) in front of Thai officials in the embassy or consulate here in the UK then sent over.

I've had a quick look on the Thai embassy site here in the UK and can't see anything regarding this.

Does anyone have any experience with this?

I'm guessing the official in the land office in Chiang Saen is sticking to her guns because that was the first thing she said and she doesn't want/like anyone telling her different, which I kind of understand, but that still leaves me with the problem at hand, how to get this done without actually going over there for three days!

Any help appreciated, please try and avoid 'why don't you rent' 'don't borrow the money' 'she's only going to rip you off anyway' type of responses

Thanks in advance,

Biff

Oh and just to add, my initial thoughts were "land-office lady is thirsty for some tea'' but it seems from the phone calls today, that this is not the case!

Edited March 2, 2011 by bifftastic

[bifftastic]

I've since found this http://www.thailawonline.com/images/documents/Principle_for_Acquisition_of_Land[1].pdf

In which, item 3. seems to cover my situation, I'd still very much appreciate any advice from those who have experience of this process

Edited March 2, 2011 by bifftastic

[ESB7]

As the official in the land office dosnt know you from Adam, get your wife to take any foreign man and sign the document.............job done

[PattayaParent]

How do the land office even konw she has a Farang boyfriend??

[bifftastic]

As the official in the land office dosnt know you from Adam, get your wife to take any foreign man and sign the document.............job done

It's an option I suppose, thanks

[bifftastic]

How do the land office even konw she has a Farang boyfriend??

Dunno, maybe they asked her and she told them.

Anyway, that particular cat is out of the bag now, unfortunately.

Anyway, I'm off to the Thai embassy on Monday to try and get it sorted out.

Thanks for the replies so far

[Khun Jean]

Classic case for a request for tea money, up to you if you want to spend it. As the chanot can not be transfered i would cancel the sale and get your money back. Maybe the seller will try to help you get it transfered.

[bifftastic]

Classic case for a request for tea money, up to you if you want to spend it. As the chanot can not be transfered i would cancel the sale and get your money back. Maybe the seller will try to help you get it transfered.

That's what I thought at first, but it's not. and anyone requiring any thirst quenching by way of tea, will be doing so at their own expense. Ms Tastic even mentioned that it may be possible to 'pay our way through' this problem but said it was a very bad idea, it would set a precedent, and any time we wanted anything done at the land office, or pretty much anywhere else (it's a small place and word get's around, you know?) we'd be paying through the nose. Mai Ow!

The Chanote can be transferred but not without my signature. Get my money back? Seriously?

Even if the seller still had the money, which I very much doubt, the sale has happened, gone through, done, dusted, signed for, witnessed, money changed hands.

The seller is now out of the picture.

As far as the land office is concerned, the only thing they are interested in is the declaration that the funds used in the purchase are legally recognised as my g/f's and not mine.

I'll see what happens on Monday at the Thai embassy in London.

[JimGant]

Even if the seller still had the money, which I very much doubt, the sale has happened, gone through, done, dusted, signed for, witnessed, money changed hands.

The seller is now out of the picture.

(Sorry, the following has nothing to do directly with your problem -- I think -- but your narrative did raise a question or two.)

My understanding, second hand from my wife, is that, until the chanote has been endorsed over to the new buyer, the sale hasn't totally gone through. And, the seller (or his Power of Attorney) has to accompany the buyer to the Land Office to accomplish all the paperwork, to include the last step of chanote endorsement.

So, when you say "G/f went to the land office to have her name put on the Chanote," you're not saying she walked the chanote into the Land Office solo, are you?

Is the seller really out of the picture? What if the Land Office won't accept your claim that the purchase money was not yours? And thus will never endorse the chanote over to your g/f...

Again, my understanding of this kind of situation (albeit rare)is that the sale is thus not final if the chanote cannot be endorsed over to the new owner (or mortgage holder). And, hopefully, the money is being held in escrow somewhere -- until such endorsement takes place (unfortunately, you indicate otherwise).

Uh, all this information is being fed to you by your g/f?

[bifftastic]

Interesting, thanks for posting.

What we had was a pre-sale agreement, 100,000 baht was paid, the document was witnessed by Pu Yai Baan, neighbours etc. signed by both parties. The remainder was to be paid by a certain date, this was all done. That's what I'm referring to when I say 'signed done and dusted'.

It may well be that the seller needs to be there too, in order to finally endorse the transfer, I'm not sure, he may have completed that part of the procedure already leaving only the name transfer (and this pesky 'confirmation' by me) remaining. If not, he doesn't live very far away.

So, to that extent, yes, I suppose the seller is still kind of involved, as his name remains on the Chanote, however, I'm fairly sure he would have little influence over the land office.

No, it's not all being 'fed to me' by my g/f, my friend in Bangkok (who previous to all this has never spoken to my g/f) has spoken to the land office herself, taken advice from her father, spoken to her father's friend in the land office in Bangkok and verified/clarified the situation, both to me and my g/f who is doing all of this kind of stuff for the first time, which is why I thought, at first, this was a 'tea' request.

I can see no real benefit for my g/f in all this, she wants her name on the Chanote.

Just to re-iterate, the land office do not need any kind of proof other than my signature/passport copy etc., the problem with that is geographical distance.

[PattayaParent]

How do the land office even konw she has a Farang boyfriend??

Dunno, maybe they asked her and she told them.

Anyway, that particular cat is out of the bag now, unfortunately.

Anyway, I'm off to the Thai embassy on Monday to try and get it sorted out.

Thanks for the replies so far

So your GF only needs to go back to the land office and say 'no Farang boyfriend now, I have his money so don't need him' and there should be no problem with the transfer?

After all, not like they won't have heard it before?

[JimGant]

Biff, I would think you're good-to-go -- once the Land Office gets your 'it ain't my money' letter. What's ironic is, you're coming up against the requirement for married couples -- but you're single...! But shortly, when you try to record on the chanote your usufruct or lease, if married, they might deny that -- because once married, the usufruct or lease can be abrogated by one or the other married partners -- so the Land Office regards such as moot. Man, what a minefield.

In my situation, the wife never changed her ID card from "Miss" when we married 31 years ago -- too many hassles requiring the husband's signature. Plus, she never changed her last name, so no illegality with the name.

When she bought our land -- 10 years ago -- it did come out at the Land Office (Doi Saket) that she was married to a farang, but certainly had no desire to change all her documentation from Miss to Mrs (Ms designation not yet available). The agent, unlike yours, was -- and remains -- efficient, smart, and helpful. He asked: "Could you afford this land without your husband's assets?" Yes, she answered truthfully (she worked 30 years in the States -- and has a bigger SS check than I do). No further questions. (And no required letter from me certifying 'it's her money, not mine.')

The above fits with the following info in the link you furnished:

In case a Thai who has

legal or illegal alien spouse, if a

Thai could show the evidence

indicates that the spending on land

is sin suan tau or personal asset

according to section 1471 and

section 1472 of The Civil and

Commercial Code, the competent

officer could registers rights and

juristic act for a Thai without

testimony form of Thai nationality

and an alien spouse according No.1

– No.3

Anyway, I'm perfectly content with the way things turned out, including my 30-year lease (nicely greased by the same agent at the Land Office - no lawyer needed nor wanted).

I'm sure, Biff, just a minor speed bump for you. It's tough when the timing for your Land Office agent coincides with menopause...

Edited March 5, 2011 by JimGant

[bifftastic]

Biff, I would think you're good-to-go -- once the Land Office gets your 'it ain't my money' letter. What's ironic is, you're coming up against the requirement for married couples -- but you're single...! But shortly, when you try to record on the chanote your usufruct or lease, if married, they might deny that -- because once married, the usufruct or lease can be abrogated by one or the other married partners -- so the Land Office regards such as moot. Man, what a minefield.

In my situation, the wife never changed her ID card from "Miss" when we married 31 years ago -- too many hassles requiring the husband's signature. Plus, she never changed her last name, so no illegality with the name.

When she bought our land -- 10 years ago -- it did come out at the Land Office (Doi Saket) that she was married to a farang, but certainly had no desire to change all her documentation from Miss to Mrs (Ms designation not yet available). The agent, unlike yours, was -- and remains -- efficient, smart, and helpful. He asked: "Could you afford this land without your husband's assets?" Yes, she answered truthfully (she worked 30 years in the States -- and has a bigger SS check than I do). No further questions. (And no required letter from me certifying 'it's her money, not mine.')

The above fits with the following info in the link you furnished:

In case a Thai who has

legal or illegal alien spouse, if a

Thai could show the evidence

indicates that the spending on land

is sin suan tau or personal asset

according to section 1471 and

section 1472 of The Civil and

Commercial Code, the competent

officer could registers rights and

juristic act for a Thai without

testimony form of Thai nationality

and an alien spouse according No.1

– No.3

Anyway, I'm perfectly content with the way things turned out, including my 30-year lease (nicely greased by the same agent at the Land Office - no lawyer needed nor wanted).

I'm sure, Biff, just a minor speed bump for you. It's tough when the timing for your Land Office agent coincides with menopause...

Thanks Jim, yes I've been informed that it's an unusual request, the people in the Bangkok land office couldn't believe it, mainly because of the small (to them I guess) amount of money concerned, they said the rule applies to purchases over 2 million baht, but I guess, up in the sticks, that doesn't apply.

What I read into 'legal or illegal spouse' is that they can apply this rule to what we in the UK would refer to as 'common law' partners, not officially married but viewed as such by the authorities. As for evidence that the finances are 'sin suan tao', there isn't any, hence, I think, the problem. This was, ironically, one reason we didn't get married before the house purchase!

My friend has since been on the 'phone to the office in Chiang Saen and confirmed that they will accept my letter, signed by a Thai official in this country, and had a pop at them for not suggesting it themselves!

So, I think you're right, I'll be 'good to go'

I'll post here after my visit to the Thai embassy, hopefully this thread will become useful for anyone in a similar position in the future

Edited March 5, 2011 by bifftastic

[seaeagle]

I think my situation was similar when we bought our first place over here back in 2003.

Now, all the following assumes the premise that you're pretty well sure to lose property if you put it in your Thai partner's name and things don't work out. So, using that logic, what's the harm in putting it in another Thai persons name? Read on.........

1) I was in UK and wife came to buy a place we'd had our eyes on.

2) She came across the problem of buying something, where i had to sign the usual disclaimer.

3) option was to send the stuff to me in UK, get it witnessed etc down in London, send it back to thailand. Far too long in terms of time!

4) So, I suggested that the property be bought in Mother-in-Laws name. Therefore, father-in-law could very easily sign the different disclaimer they want when a married Thai wife wants to purchase land without the name of the Thai husband involved.

5) Upshot was that freehold was easily and quickly bought in M-I-L's name. I got the usufruct from M-I-L. Then, when next we both returned to thailand, the property was transferred between mother and daughter, with very small tax payable due to it being a 'family' transaction.

6) End result is wife has title, and I have usufruct.

Give that 'work-around' some thought. May work in your circumstances.

[bifftastic]

Thanks, that's the second option. If this trip to the embassy doesn't bear fruit, the house will be put into her sister's name then transferred again once I arrive.

I didn't realise there was less tax on an 'inter-family' transfer! Cool

I would get the Mil to do it, but she's too far away...not a bad thing in the long-term I believe

Edited March 6, 2011 by bifftastic

[seaeagle]

Thanks, that's the second option. If this trip to the embassy doesn't bear fruit, the house will be put into her sister's name then transferred again once I arrive.

I didn't realise there was less tax on an 'inter-family' transfer! Cool

I would get the Mil to do it, but she's too far away...not a bad thing in the long-term I believe

You say something that I'm not sure about. Don't assume that it's also a low tax for a transfer between sisters. They could view that differently than a mother - daughter transaction. The latter is viewed as passing it between generations, and I'd bet the former would be viewed as a 'business' transaction, charged at the usual tax rates.

My M-I-L lives 2 days drive away. Still too bloody close for me!! But, by insisting on driving over 2 days, rather than bust a gut in 1 day, it does shave 4 days off a 2-week holiday! Ha, ha.

[bifftastic]

Ah yes, good point, thanks, I'm off to the embassy now, so, hopefully it will be sorted that way.

We've only got a Fino so I reckon it would take us a week to go see 'mum' downside is, she'll come and see us!

[Khun Jean]

I think my situation was similar when we bought our first place over here back in 2003.

Now, all the following assumes the premise that you're pretty well sure to lose property if you put it in your Thai partner's name and things don't work out. So, using that logic, what's the harm in putting it in another Thai persons name? Read on.........

1) I was in UK and wife came to buy a place we'd had our eyes on.

2) She came across the problem of buying something, where i had to sign the usual disclaimer.

3) option was to send the stuff to me in UK, get it witnessed etc down in London, send it back to thailand. Far too long in terms of time!

4) So, I suggested that the property be bought in Mother-in-Laws name. Therefore, father-in-law could very easily sign the different disclaimer they want when a married Thai wife wants to purchase land without the name of the Thai husband involved.

5) Upshot was that freehold was easily and quickly bought in M-I-L's name. I got the usufruct from M-I-L. Then, when next we both returned to thailand, the property was transferred between mother and daughter, with very small tax payable due to it being a 'family' transaction.

6) End result is wife has title, and I have usufruct.

Give that 'work-around' some thought. May work in your circumstances.

This is exactly how i did a few land transfers. mother in laws name on the title, i a usufruct and my wife in her mothers will to inherit the land. Very efficient and a low cost option as the usufruct is only 100 baht. My wife happy, mother in law happy and me happy.

Now after 10 years marriage though i just sign the paper and my wife has it in her name directly and sometimes we include the children on the chanote if we plan to keep the piece of land a long time.

To the OP, all my transfers where done at the landoffice and money exhanged hands after the chanot was transfered and the usufruct was registered. You are now in a situation were some bad luck can cost you your downpayment. It is always a bit of a gamble, but this one could have been done better. We always learn for the next time.

[bifftastic]

I think my situation was similar when we bought our first place over here back in 2003.

Now, all the following assumes the premise that you're pretty well sure to lose property if you put it in your Thai partner's name and things don't work out. So, using that logic, what's the harm in putting it in another Thai persons name? Read on.........

1) I was in UK and wife came to buy a place we'd had our eyes on.

2) She came across the problem of buying something, where i had to sign the usual disclaimer.

3) option was to send the stuff to me in UK, get it witnessed etc down in London, send it back to thailand. Far too long in terms of time!

4) So, I suggested that the property be bought in Mother-in-Laws name. Therefore, father-in-law could very easily sign the different disclaimer they want when a married Thai wife wants to purchase land without the name of the Thai husband involved.

5) Upshot was that freehold was easily and quickly bought in M-I-L's name. I got the usufruct from M-I-L. Then, when next we both returned to thailand, the property was transferred between mother and daughter, with very small tax payable due to it being a 'family' transaction.

6) End result is wife has title, and I have usufruct.

Give that 'work-around' some thought. May work in your circumstances.

This is exactly how i did a few land transfers. mother in laws name on the title, i a usufruct and my wife in her mothers will to inherit the land. Very efficient and a low cost option as the usufruct is only 100 baht. My wife happy, mother in law happy and me happy.

Now after 10 years marriage though i just sign the paper and my wife has it in her name directly and sometimes we include the children on the chanote if we plan to keep the piece of land a long time.

To the OP, all my transfers where done at the landoffice and money exhanged hands after the chanot was transfered and the usufruct was registered. You are now in a situation were some bad luck can cost you your downpayment. It is always a bit of a gamble, but this one could have been done better. We always learn for the next time.

Thanks for the input K Jean, I agree, this could have been handled better. This is a first time think for both me and my g/f, I'm also not there, which doesn't help either!

Mother in law is quite a long way away so I think it's going to be sister in law.

I realise that the tax will probably have to be paid twice but it appears that that's the best way to proceed for now.

[bifftastic]

As a couple of people have mentioned, this could have been handled differently, and perhaps better.

I went to the Thai embassy in London today. The person I spoke to there also expressed surprise that the land office had asked for the confirmation letter.

He said

"So, you married?"

"no" I said.

"Oh you don't need the letter, only if you're married"

"yes, I know, but the land office want it anyway, let's say I'm married"

"ok show me marriage certificate" he said, smiling.

"mai mee khap"

He smiled some more....

"ok never mind"

Turns out, on the letter it refers to 'registered or unregistered spouse' which, I believe is like a common law partnership in English law.

Anyway, it turns out that it's not such an easy process, here's what I would have to do.

Take my passport to a solicitor, have him notarise a copy of it signed by me.

Send that copy to the FCO (Foreign and Commonwealth Office) Legalisation department, which isn't in London, it's 50 miles away!

Wait for them to send it back, go back to the Thai embassy and then get the conformation letter filled out and stamped.

Send the conformation letter to Thailand for my g/f to sign at the land office.

Too long!

If I'd known they were going to ask for all this I could have been better prepared, but all the information I had up to this point led me to believe that, as we're not married, there would be no need for any of this. Indeed, all the Thai officials I and my g/f have spoken to (except, of course, the one that actually matters, in the land office!) have also expressed surprise that this has been asked for.

I guess it goes to show again, that every government department, or bank or shop, or basically anything in Thailand, can have it's very own interpretation of how things should be done.

So, I hope this thread may prove helpful to others who may find themselves in a similar situation.

Expect the unexpected!

Biff

[JimGant]

I guess it goes to show again, that every government department, or bank or shop, or basically anything in Thailand, can have it's very own interpretation of how things should be done.

Yeah, the "my rice bowl" concept. Very frustrating.

Now what -- sister-in-law route? Actually, this is probably the better route, if your Land Office grouch insists you're married, since she could then refuse to register the usufruct using the "being married means usufruct (or lease) contract can be abrogated; therefore, it's meaningless to endorse such on chanote." (This scenario has surfaced in several other threads.)

Does S-I-L have a Will? If not, she can write one in her own hand, which would be legal -- leaving "her" land to her sister. And if she does already have a Will, writing something in her own hand about the separate issue of "her" land to her sister would probably be treated as a codicil... Don't know. But better than nothing, especially when factored in with the probability she'd croak before the land could be transferred to your g/f...

[bifftastic]

Yeah, sister-in-law route it is I think.

Interesting you should mention about the possibility of an usufruct not being registered on the property if we're married, or at least married in the eyes of Land Office Grouch!

There's been a thread on the Chiang Rai forum about usufructs and most of the folks who chimed in were saying it was done very easily, they are all married I believe, and the land office (possibly 'sans grouch') in their respective Amphur, just went ahead and did it, for very few Baht indeed!

It occurs to me that when the land is in S-I-L's name, it should be easy to transfer it to g/f's name as the question of where the money came from could be answered "there was no money, my sister gave it to me"

Who knows? Maybe It's wishful thinking that anything could be straight forward when government officials of any country are involved!

The will is a very good idea, I doubt she has one, but she will have soon!

Cheers,

Biff

[JimGant]

Biff,

Here's what I saw in a previous thread:

Both at the land offices in Sichon and Khanom (in Nakhon Si Thammarat district) we have experienced that I cannot lease the land from my common law wife, because we live together, even we're not legally married.

See post #38, HERE

I also saw somewhere that Land Offices would not register usufructs for married couples, i.e., usufructs and leases were treated the same. Cannot find that thread, however.

Suffice to say, S-I-L route should be looking better and better...

[bifftastic]

Biff,

Here's what I saw in a previous thread:

Both at the land offices in Sichon and Khanom (in Nakhon Si Thammarat district) we have experienced that I cannot lease the land from my common law wife, because we live together, even we're not legally married.

See post #38, HERE

I also saw somewhere that Land Offices would not register usufructs for married couples, i.e., usufructs and leases were treated the same. Cannot find that thread, however.

Suffice to say, S-I-L route should be looking better and better...

Hmm, I reckon we'll just have to 'suck it and see' on the usufruct. The main reason for wanting it is for the unpleasant possibility that my g/f-soon-to-be-wife dies before me when the children (who will inherit the house) are not of an age to look after it and themselves. If we end up divorcing then, given the location and the circumstances, I'll end up with what I ended up with here in the UK, ie bugger all! not a problem for me, I have followed the much-given advice and invested only that which I am prepared to walk away from!

As I mentioned before, this whole thing highlights the fact that nothing is written in stone (or, it seems, law!) and things are done differently in different places.

For instance, the whole, opening a bank account thing, I asked in the local Bangkok Bank branch about opening an account (g/f in tow), bearing in mind the many many threads/posts here on TV about this subject was expecting all the previously mentioned responses from 'mai dai' to 'dai' via 'only with non imm visa' '30 day stamp is ok' 'work permit only' and everything in between! What I wasn't expecting was "ok can, after you marry, show paper for get marry then can open for you, mai mee ban haa na ka"

And, as I am experiencing now, once the first response is given, there's no changing of the mind.

So, with regard to the usufruct, I will approach it from the angle of protecting the children's inheritance rather than my investment, and see what happens.

Sister-in-law route is definitely the first port of call, I doubt very much if the future Mrs Tastic will be happy to let it stay in her sister's name for too long! We shall see what we shall see. I'll be happy if the whole thing is done and dusted in time for us to get married.

Thanks again for all the input, I'll let you know what happens.

Biff

Edited March 8, 2011 by bifftastic

[Khun Jean]

They do something that is clearly against the law by denying a transfer of the land. Your girlfriend is not your wife and as such will be the sole owner of the land. No problems whatsoever with that, it is even confirmed by many other officials.

It has to be a case of 'tea money' or even more dreadful the 'loss of face'.

The first one is easy to handle, wave a few baht and see how they respond. I bet it is the face issue. This makes it for a Thai in an official position impossible to admit their wrong doing. ( Is this person working there everyday? Can not 'arrange' for a day off. )

The problem in this case is that you will need them again later. Using the sister in law will be seen as going around a decision that was made by the official, they already know that the money originates from you so transfering it to your sister in law is a little too obvious. This will cause more loss of face, and even more lack of service later. If you want a usufruct on the land, good luck with that, i can almost guarantee it that will be a problem.

In this particular case i would follow the officials demands, even if it is a hassle. Produce the paper and get it done the way it was decided by the official. However just as a counter i would add the usufruct right away. (Give some, get some). No loss of face in this situation, maybe even go sofar as saying they were right and you were wrong all the time. This will help you with future dealings, and that is what is most important!

Edited March 9, 2011 by Khun Jean

[bifftastic]

Yes, I believe it is the 'loss of face' phenomenon. We'll see what happens when we try to get the Chanote put in her sister's name, then take it from there.

It's true I will need their services again, and this hasn't got off to a very good start!

[bifftastic]

Spoke to the mrs today, it was the land office official who suggested putting the Chanote in her sister's name! So we shouldn't have any problems with that.

Seems strange to me, they still know where the money's coming from but, as sister-in-law doesn't have a boyfriend or a husband, this seems to be something that the land office are ok with!

I do think the 'loss of face' issue has reared it's head in all this. Once she's said 'mai dai' she won't go back on it. but has come up with this 'workaround'

[seaeagle]

Spoke to the mrs today, it was the land office official who suggested putting the Chanote in her sister's name! So we shouldn't have any problems with that.

Seems strange to me, they still know where the money's coming from but, as sister-in-law doesn't have a boyfriend or a husband, this seems to be something that the land office are ok with!

I do think the 'loss of face' issue has reared it's head in all this. Once she's said 'mai dai' she won't go back on it. but has come up with this 'workaround'

Okay, that's fine as a workaround. Consider a bit of belt and braces here. It'll only cost a few baht, but could save everything.

1) Employ a lawyer to get a simple contract drawn up whereby the sister undertakes to transfer title to your mrs within, say, 12 months. By getting this written down, if she plays hard-ball for any reason (as yet unknown. if you get my drift) you have some legal redress.

2) Get your sister to make a will, willing said land to your wife. If she dies in the meantime, it's 'lost' within the whole extended family, and could be a bugger to resolve.

Just a point on any future usufruct. Get it either from your sister before transfer, or from your girlfriend before she becomes your wife. Getting the usufruct may be a problem you've already come up against, but where 'we' can't bang the table and say "the law is the law - do it", a lawyer can. Even a mai dai land official is usually flexible in the face of a lawyer.

[bifftastic]

Thanks for the advice there, I'll get that sorted asap

I definitely think I'll be going in that particular land office with a lawyer in tow when it comes to the usufruct and the transfer of the title to my g/f (who already has what we in England call 'the raging hump' with the aforementioned L.O.G or Land Office Grouch)

L.O.G has claimed to 'only want to help protect Thai people'...against what exactly? Presumably, evil foreigners who want to buy land and give it to people who otherwise would have none!

[seaeagle]

Thanks for the advice there, I'll get that sorted asap

I definitely think I'll be going in that particular land office with a lawyer in tow when it comes to the usufruct and the transfer of the title to my g/f (who already has what we in England call 'the raging hump' with the aforementioned L.O.G or Land Office Grouch)

L.O.G has claimed to 'only want to help protect Thai people'...against what exactly? Presumably, evil foreigners who want to buy land and give it to people who otherwise would have none!

Again, just suggesting a more subtle approach. A bit less 'in your face' for those that don't like 'losing it'....................

I'd suggest keeping clear of the LO. Use the lawyer, get the usufruct prepared and signed, and just let him go and register it on his own. That gives less opportunity for stone-walling by the officials, as they've only one person to deal with - a Thai, and a Thai lawyer at that.

He won't want to waste him time on a fruitless visit to the LO, so he'll have done his groundwork and phone calls before hand, and will include any 'extras for the LO staff' in his fee. It's very quick to register, and he may even return with the chanote already noted with your name as usufructuary.

It's probably no big deal if you're there for the transfer or not. Your occupancy is fully secured now (with the usufruct) anyway, so I'd be letting the girls sort it between themselves, and just sit outside in the car with the air-con on!