Dual Citizenship

[Maestro]

In a number of recent posts in this forum, I read that since a few years ago the Thai government officially allows and recognises dual citizenship, i.e. a Thai citizen may, in addition to his Thai passport, legally have, in addition, a passport of another country.

Today, I read the following:

Malaysian investigators will probe claims that some of those who fled across the border hold dual citizenship, a status that both Thailand and Malaysia do not recognise, the newspaper said.

(Source: The Nation)

I am inclined to think that the reporter of Malaysia’s Star newspaper got it wrong. Did he?

What is the law, what section of the law, that permits dual citizenship for Thai nationals?

Edited September 15, 2005 by maestro

[Rinrada]

Looked into this in the past and basically it was a case of letting sleeping dogs lie.

There appears to be nothing in Thai Law that states that Thai nationals are allowed duel citizenship.

On the other hand there also does not appear to be anything to the contrary....M.P.rai etc..

Khun wife has both little red books and on entry to LOS its smiles all round when she hands her T pp to immigration.

When visiting anywhere else...Europe,US,Hong Kong, Auz,Japan...Upper Volta etc...its the errr wont say real pp she uses....but the more acceptable UK/EU one for more immediate/easier entry clearance....

Brit Guv.dont mind

[Mr Red]

Same situation here -- the better half just renewed her Thai pp through Washington embassy (after being expired 33 years) and this trip back in November, it will be the test: Thai pp on entry to LOS, US pp on entry to US.

Obviously, since Thai embassy re-issued pp they don't have any objections to dual citizenship. US does not advertise it, but they don't object either.

[singa-traz]

In a number of recent posts in this forum, I read that since a few years ago the Thai government officially allows and recognises dual citizenship, i.e. a Thai citizen may, in addition to his Thai passport, legally have, in addition, a passport of another country.

Today, I read the following:

Malaysian investigators will probe claims that some of those who fled across the border hold dual citizenship, a status that both Thailand and Malaysia do not recognise, the newspaper said.

(Source: The Nation)

I am inclined to think that the reporter of Malaysia’s Star newspaper got it wrong. Did he?

What is the law, what section of the law, that permits dual citizenship for Thai nationals?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Some clarification here:

Thai Nationality

Some countries will require that you renounce your nationality before getting a new one. Not Thailand.

When they say "not recognise dual citizenship", it probably mean that there is no special status for dual-national, and they view dual-national as THAI.

[singa-traz]

Thailand’s Nationality Act B.E. 2508 as amended by Acts B.E. 2535 No. 2 and 3 (1992)

[lopburi3]

Malaysia does not accept dual nationality. Thailand had tried to use this as an reason not to recognize such dual citizenship (only for Malaysia) but do not believe it has been accepted as a legal policy to the extent of removing Thai citizenship from anyone.

[muldoon]

My mother has thai and NZL passports...never had any issues AFAIK.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Most countries permit duality these days unless citizenship has been formally renounced.

[Maestro]

Thailand’s Nationality Act B.E. 2508 as amended by Acts B.E. 2535 No. 2 and 3 (1992)

Singa-traz, I don’t know how you found that web page with the English translation of this law, but you are great!

Interesting to see the difference between the Thai woman acquiring dual citizenship through marriage to an alien, and the child of a Thai mother and alien father acquiring his father’s citizenship, in addition to the Thai nationality, on the basis of his father’s country’s laws.

The Thai wife retains her Thai nationality unless she formally renounces it (Section 13 of Thailand’s Nationality ACT B.E. 2508)

The child who, after turning 21 years old, wishes to retain his father’s nationality must offer to the Thai government to renounce his Thai nationality and the Minister can, at his discretion, chose to accept or refuse this offer (Section 14)

And Section 17 explains why my son, now 27, some years ago upon entry into Thailand with his Thai passport, was asked by the immigration officer at Bangkok airport to show also his other passport, and luckily my son responded “What other passport? I haven’t got any”.

Interesting also how much according to this law “shall lie with the discretion of the Minister”. Corruption opportunities written into the law, it would seem.

[Maestro]

"Life is hard ... and then you DIE !"

Printed on one of my sons’s T-shirts:

“Everybody wants to go to heaven…

…but nobody wants to die.”

[samran]

Thailand’s Nationality Act B.E. 2508 as amended by Acts B.E. 2535 No. 2 and 3 (1992)

The child who, after turning 21 years old, wishes to retain his father’s nationality must offer to the Thai government to renounce his Thai nationality and the Minister can, at his discretion, chose to accept or refuse this offer (Section 14)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fortunately, there is no way this clause can be enforced. Firstly Thailand has no juristiction over other nations affairs; so it can't say "if you want to keep your fathers citizenship, you have to renounce Thai citizenship". Any country that allows dual nationality (eg Australia, US, UK) will obviously say that one's right to keep that citizenship is not reliant on wheter or not they choose to keep Thai nationality.

The second obvious question is, "well what if I don't renounce my Thai citizenship, what are you (the Thai government) going to do about it?"

The answer is they can do nothing. Nowhere in the law is there any recourse for the Thai government to take away ones citizenship should the chose not to renounce their fathers nationality between the ages of 20 and 21.

The third reason, which has yet to be tested, though I suspect it might have to be, is the Thai constitution, which prohibits discrimination between Thai citizens. In this case, they can't on one hand let some Thai's keep their nationality yet force others to renounce it.

The fourth reason, is simply that too many children of powerful Thai's have dual nationality, including Dear Leaders son, who was born in the US and therefore is a US citizen. Other notables include Tiger Woods who was offered a Thai passport (though didn't accept) and many other children of 'hi-so's' who I know who happily travel on their EU/US/Australian PP's at any opportunity.

[Thaicoon]

I have been told if you are a child you can have dual Nationality up to the age of 16, for a Thai adult, if a Thai has i.e a British passport and a Thai passport and they own property in Thailand, if the thai Government finds out, they can no longer own property in there home country, i think i am right, replys please.

[lopburi3]

I have been told if you are a child you can have dual Nationality up to the age of 16, for a Thai adult, if a Thai has  i.e a British passport and a Thai passport and they own property in Thailand, if the thai Government finds out, they can no longer own property in there home country, i think i am right, replys please.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You are wrong.

[Nordlys]

I have been told if you are a child you can have dual Nationality up to the age of 16, for a Thai adult, if a Thai has  i.e a British passport and a Thai passport and they own property in Thailand, if the thai Government finds out, they can no longer own property in there home country, i think i am right, replys please.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I bought a property (condo) solely under my name three years ago without TT3 by producing my Thai citizen ID card at the land department office. And when I had my Thai citizenship card renewed the year before that, Khet (amphor) Pathumwan office asked me why it took me so many years after the expiration that I came to renew my Thai ID card which as a Thai citizen under the law I have to carry with me at all times and was required to renew swiftly. I told them I've been away from the country (for 15 years). How did I prove that? With my Japanese passport.

[Maestro]

Thailand’s Nationality Act B.E. 2508 as amended by Acts B.E. 2535 No. 2 and 3 (1992)

The child who, after turning 21 years old, wishes to retain his father’s nationality must offer to the Thai government to renounce his Thai nationality and the Minister can, at his discretion, chose to accept or refuse this offer (Section 14)

Fortunately, there is no way this clause can be enforced. Firstly Thailand has no juristiction over other nations affairs; so it can't say "if you want to keep your fathers citizenship, you have to renounce Thai citizenship". Any country that allows dual nationality (eg Australia, US, UK) will obviously say that one's right to keep that citizenship is not reliant on wheter or not they choose to keep Thai nationality.

The second obvious question is, "well what if I don't renounce my Thai citizenship, what are you (the Thai government) going to do about it?"

The answer is they can do nothing. Nowhere in the law is there any recourse for the Thai government to take away ones citizenship should the chose not to renounce their fathers nationality between the ages of 20 and 21.

I see it differently. The Thai government does not say “If you want to keep the Thai nationality, you must renounce your father’s nationality.” It says that if you wish to keep your father’s nationalty, you must renounce your Thai nationality, i.e. the Thai government reserves the right to take away the Thai nationality.

Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1)      He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2)      There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality,  or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

Whether the Thai government chooses to enforce this clause or not is another question, but they did seem to try and catch my son on this.

[Nordlys]

And Section 17 explains why my son, now 27, some years ago upon entry into Thailand with his Thai passport, was asked by the immigration officer at Bangkok airport to show also his other passport, and luckily my son responded “What other passport? I haven’t got any”.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My brother who like myself also a dual citizenships holder was asked to produce the other passport at Don Muang when he entered the country with a fresh new Thai passport without any stamp (because he used the other passport to to leave the country of the point of departure) and was not allowed entry to Thailand with a Thai passport.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Nordlys

[samran]

And Section 17 explains why my son, now 27, some years ago upon entry into Thailand with his Thai passport, was asked by the immigration officer at Bangkok airport to show also his other passport, and luckily my son responded “What other passport? I haven’t got any”.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My brother who like myself also a dual citizenships holder was asked to produce the other passport at Don Muang when he entered the country with a fresh new Thai passport without any stamp (because he used the other passport to to leave the country of the point of departure) and was not allowed entry to Thailand with a Thai passport.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This happened to me when I entered on a new Thai PP obtained in Canberra. Luckily I had my expired Thai PP with me, and they stamped me in on that. It appears from others who have PM'ed me, that the reason for this has less to do with the nationality law, and more to to with the adminstrative inconvience of stamping 'in' a blank Thai PP that hasn't already been 'checked out' from the country. The computer system doesn't like it.

Some other posters who have PM'ed me here have simply been insistant on being stamped in as a Thai, and have always succeded. My mother in fact has plonked down her Australian and Thai PP's down to the immigration officer at BKK and asked which one was best to enter on. They took the Thai PP and told her to enter on that one.

I see it differently. The Thai government does not say “If you want to keep the Thai nationality, you must renounce your father’s nationality.” It says that if you wish to keep your father’s nationalty, you must renounce your Thai nationality, i.e. the Thai government reserves the right to take away the Thai nationality.

Section 17. With respect to a person who has Thai nationality, by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father, his Thai nationality may be revoked if it appears that:

(1)      He has resided in a foreign country, of which his father has or used to have nationality, for a consecutive period of more than five years as from the day of his becoming sui juris;

(2)      There is evidence to show that he makes use of the nationality of his father or of a foreign nationality,  or that he has an active interest in the nationality of his father or in a foreign nationality;

Whether the Thai government chooses to enforce this clause or not is another question, but they did seem to try and catch my son on this.

Mestro's point however is an interesting one. I have dusted off the Thai language version. Section 17 appears in the original 2508 legislation and has survived 2 subsequent amendments and the translation is true to the Thai version.

I still tend to think that simply can't be enforced for many reasons, mainly based on bits of knowledge that I have picked up along the way. In no particular order:

1) I once asked a person who worked at the Council of State who I believe helped draft the new constitution (a very urbane Oxford educated chap) who told me most Thai laws are very badly drafted (basically to keep various pressure groups happy), and subsequent amendments can even muddle the situation even more and often be contradictory – as in the case of this legislation.

2) Based on my experience in working for the Thai government, given the usual hazey or contadictory nature of these things, interpretations of rules are based on the latest versions/addition to those rules as they tend to reflect contemporary thinking in government. Thus precedence will be given to the latest set of rules. In this case, section 17 was part of the original 2508 draft while section 14, which allows some leeway in the matter was part of the 2535 amendments. Thus, purely based on my experience, 2535 amendments will take precedence.

3) Put simply, I have been told countless times by embassy officials that dual nationality is not an issue, and I have renewed my Thai passport many times with the embassy in full knowledge of my Australian citizenship. Call it precedence, but there simply doesn’t seem to be a problem any more.

4) Thai authorities simply have an irritating habit of having power trips, and some unfortunately like to use this for various reasons. Standing firm but polite against them usually wins the day. In Maestro’s son’s case (which has happened to me on occasion) I would respond with “if the Thai embassy feels happy to issue me with this passport who am I to tell them that they are wrong? Pulling rank vicariously between Thai government departments always works.

5) TIT. Nuff said.

[Nordlys]

And Section 17 explains why my son, now 27, some years ago upon entry into Thailand with his Thai passport, was asked by the immigration officer at Bangkok airport to show also his other passport, and luckily my son responded “What other passport? I haven’t got any”.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My brother who like myself also a dual citizenships holder was asked to produce the other passport at Don Muang when he entered the country with a fresh new Thai passport without any stamp (because he used the other passport to to leave the country of the point of departure) and was not allowed entry to Thailand with a Thai passport.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This happened to me when I entered on a new Thai PP obtained in Canberra. Luckily I had my expired Thai PP with me, and they stamped me in on that. It appears from others who have PM'ed me, that the reason for this has less to do with the nationality law, and more to to with the adminstrative inconvience of stamping 'in' a blank Thai PP that hasn't already been 'checked out' from the country. The computer system doesn't like it.

Some other posters who have PM'ed me here have simply been insistant on being stamped in as a Thai, and have always succeded. My mother in fact has plonked down her Australian and Thai PP's down to the immigration officer at BKK and asked which one was best to enter on. They took the Thai PP and told her to enter on that one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But how do I convince the immigration officer at the Don Muang to do that when they are insistent on having it stamped on my other non-Thai passport? I mean it's hard to argue I don't have one, for if it's not for the other passport I would not have a blank Thai passport on arrival without any trace of departure to begin with. Maybe I should take a round trip in and out of the country with a blank Thai passport first, then on the next trip I should leave the country with Jap. passport, and back to Thailand with a Thai passport, so at least my Thai passport is not blank when I reenter Thailand (while using the other passport to leave the point of the departure). That is of course if they really don't check the stamp trail.

[singa-traz]

...

But how do I convince the immigration officer at the Don Muang to do that when they are insistent on having it stamped on my other non-Thai passport?  I mean it's hard to argue I don't have one, for if it's not for the other passport I would not have a blank Thai passport on arrival without any trace of departure to begin with.  Maybe I should take a round trip in and out of the country with a blank Thai passport first, then on the next trip I should leave the country with Jap. passport, and back to Thailand with a Thai passport, so at least my Thai passport is not blank when I reenter Thailand (while using the other passport to leave the point of the departure).  That is of course if they really don't check the stamp trail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wouldn't it be difficult to a Thai (as you are), to apply for a Visa for Thailand at the Thai Embassy of your country where you were previously living?

See point 4 in Samran's post.

[samran]

But how do I convince the immigration officer at the Don Muang to do that when they are insistent on having it stamped on my other non-Thai passport?  I mean it's hard to argue I don't have one, for if it's not for the other passport I would not have a blank Thai passport on arrival without any trace of departure to begin with.  Maybe I should take a round trip in and out of the country with a blank Thai passport first, then on the next trip I should leave the country with Jap. passport, and back to Thailand with a Thai passport, so at least my Thai passport is not blank when I reenter Thailand (while using the other passport to leave the point of the departure).  That is of course if they really don't check the stamp trail.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You travel on your Japanese passport into and out of Thailand. Is that correct?

I don't know what you can do there...my advice is always to be in thailand on the one passport!!

Your idea won't work though . As a Thai, when you leave the country, the TM form will be stapled for used for when you return into the country and they will stamp you in next to your departure stamp.They will want to see the stapled TM form you used on departure in the PP, and the corresponding exit stamp. If you eventually start travelling on your Thai PP, you are still going to appear to be in the country as a Japanese citizen as you still haven't left on that, and if you let your visa's/work permits lapse there....you could end up overstaying!!

If you are very keen on starting to use your Thai PP and ending the need for work permits and visa extensions for your Japanese one, I could suggest something highly dodgy, but it could work: Getting stamped out simulateously in both passports. This will end your time in Thailand as a Japanese citizen, and begin your new and improved live as a Thai This could work by taking a visa run to Poi Pet.

From the reports of other people here, immigration at Poi Pet is crazy given the amount of people needing to cross. And there are also two seperate lines, one for foreigners, one for Thais to get stamped out of the country. This confusion may work in your favour.

First line up in the Thai line, get stamped out of your Thai PP. Go outside, change your T-shirt and put on a pair of sunglasses to look different and then pretend you forgot something in the Thai departures office. Then jump into long foreigners line, getting stamped out of the country on your Jap. Passport. This could work as the immigration officers will be different and won't notice you if it is really busy (and by all reports it is.

Head over to Cambodia, getting stamped in and out on your Thai Passport, and then re-enter on your Thai passport. Viola, you are back in Thailand as a Thai.

As I said, it could work if you use the confusion to your advantage.

[PETERTHEEATER]

Same situation here -- the better half just renewed her Thai pp through Washington embassy (after being expired 33 years) and this trip back in November, it will be the test: Thai pp on entry to LOS, US pp on entry to US.

Obviously, since Thai embassy re-issued pp they don't have any objections to dual citizenship.  US does not advertise it, but they don't object either.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which brings up the question of International Flights. If the dual PP holder entered Thailand on a Thai PP then they must leave on the Thai PP. However, the carrier airline as part of the check-in process will be looking for a valid PP of the country to which they are carrying the person, or a vaild visa for that country in the Thai PP.

The usual procedure would be to show the airline rep the other PP but would they then freak out at two PPs and run and tell the Immigration?.

Rhetorical question for posters. what do you do?

[lopburi3]

You show airline both passports. Done everyday and nobody freaks out.