jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) NHK reported two fire trucks... Kyodo is reporting six. SDF trucks join choppers in dousing crisis-hit Fukushima reactor TOKYO, March 17, Kyodo Fire trucks of the Self-Defense Forces joined Thursday evening in an unprecedented mission of pouring water onto a crisis-hit nuclear reactor in an effort to cool down its apparently overheating spent fuel pool that could emit highly contaminated radioactive materials. While authorities continued to grapple with the nuclear crisis at the Fukushima No. 1 [Daiichi] power plant, efforts to bring electricity to the plant also accelerated in a bid to restore the lost cooling functions in many of its reactors following Friday's earthquake and tsunami that crippled the plant. But Tokyo the same day had to try to allay growing concerns over the crisis as the United States advised their nationals living within an 80-kilometer radius to evacuate as a precaution while the official evacuation area is a 20-km radius, apparently with little effect as South Korea, Australia and New Zealand followed suit with the advisory. ''The highest priority now is to pour adequate water onto the No. 3 and No. 4 reactors, especially in their spent fuel pools,'' said Hidehiko Nishiyama, a spokesman of the government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency. Two Ground Self-Defense Force choppers dropped seawater in a 7,500-liter bag four times each in the morning on the No. 3 reactor, an operation on which Defense Minister Toshimi Kitazawa said in Tokyo, ''We decided to do this because we thought that today is the time limit.'' The 12-minute operation was followed in the evening by the shooting of high-pressure streams of water by six SDF fire trucks. A water cannon truck dispatched by the Metropolitan Police Department also began spraying water, but suspended the work later, the National Police Agency said. MORE: http://english.kyodo...1/03/78986.html Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 How do we know there's not already a core meltdown at one of the reactors. #3 seems to be the most dire, as it's the one with plutonium, and has had a steady stream of smoke/steam coming out for days. the most dangerous are unit 3 and 4(the rods lay open in the storage vessel) It's possible that ignation has triggered a meltdown already. The French have offered to treat people with radiation issues in France. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brahmburgers Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 This time last year, the Reds started taking over downtown Bangkok. 11 months before that they gave us a preview, after coming up from making a mess in Pattaya. For whatever it's worth. Not too many dull moments - residing in Asia these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Second attempt to spray water over unit 3 and 4. First attempt didn't work. SPON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 TEPCO news conference via NHK: Radiation levels at the plant 3.786 milli-sievert per hour at 9:30 pm Japan time 3.750 milli-sievert per hour at 10:30 pm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 French airforce flew 250 people to Seoul. More to follow ... SPON Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crushdepth Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) See below - is this interpretation of what Tepco has said correct? More remarkably, the Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco), which owns the power station, has warned: "The possibility of re-criticality is not zero".If you are in any doubt as to what this means, it is that in the company's view, it is possible that enough fissile uranium is present in the cooling pond in enough density to form a critical mass - meaning that a nuclear fission chain reaction could start. - BBC News Emphasis is mine. There is a good photo of the reactor buildings on the link, which shows that #4 has been reduced to a skeleton as well. Edited March 17, 2011 by Crushdepth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 "The possibility of re-criticality is not zero". can somone translate that? Although I'm aware that there are many wordgames, this one is the top I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) Relief supplies left undelivered from firms to quake-hit areas OSAKA, March 17, Kyodo News Many relief supplies offered by food makers and other firms to areas struck by last week's devastating earthquake in northeastern and eastern Japan have not yet been delivered, sources familiar with the matter said Thursday. The situation was attributable to confusion in commodity distribution and difficulties in making arrangements between the government and quake-hit areas, the sources said. Nissin Food Products Co. said Sunday it will supply 1 million cup noodles to quake-hit areas but has been able to send only 600,000 so far. Its rival Acecook Co. also decided Monday to supply 120,000 cup noodles, but has not been able to send any yet. Wacoal Holdings Corp. has also decided to supply about 30,000 items of underwear, while the Ezaki Glico Co. group offered powdered milk and retort pouch foods, but they are still waiting for the government's instructions to actually ship them. Relief supplies are sent by the government through arrangements with the Self-Defense Forces and others after checking lists for such supplies and demand from quake-hit areas. Executives at manufacturers complained about the government's sloppy responses to offers of their firms' relief supplies to the quake-hit areas. http://english.kyodo...1/03/78996.html Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 NHK now re-running recorded broadcast from earlier in the evening... Still warning of potential Tokyo power blackout..even though their live broadcast already called off that alert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crushdepth Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Translation: It might be a nuclear bomb. That's according to several definitions of nuclear criticality that I looked up. But I do find it hard to believe anyone would be quite so stupid as to put enough fissionable stuff that close together. So, someone tell me this is wrong. Please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) Opposition chief hints at difficulty promoting nuclear power plants TOKYO, March 17, Kyodo The head of Japan's main opposition Liberal Democratic Party said Thursday it will be ''difficult'' for the country to keep its nuclear power policy, following accidents at the quake-hit Fukushima No. 1 nuclear power plant that have sparked fears of possible radioactive contamination. ''It will be extremely hard (to find) locations for nuclear plants hereafter,'' Sadakazu Tanigaki told a news conference, suggesting that the LDP, which had ruled the country almost continuously for more than half a century until 2009, will review its policy of increasing such plants. ''Our party must draw up new measures after analyzing data based on this accident,'' said Tanigaki. More than 50 nuclear plants were built under the LDP administration, which had touted that the country's power plants were absolutely safe. Bearing in mind that the nuclear plants are a major source of electricity, Tanigaki stressed that Japan needs to think deeply about its supply of power since it hinges on the people's lifestyle and the country's industry. The LDP in its manifesto for the 2010 House of Councillors election espoused increasing nuclear plants, saying that such plants are necessary to solve global warming and meet the demand for power. Tanigaki said that setting up the plants was one solution to global warming based on the country's energy situation. Some LDP lawmakers, though, are likely to show caution about deciding on a blanket refusal to set up nuclear plants. http://english.kyodo...1/03/78993.html Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) Kyodo News - 8:37 pm Japan time - 6:37 pm Thai time Radiation level rises after water shot at troubled reactor: TEPCO Also: SDF to drop water by choppers, trucks again Fri.: ministry Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) Translation: It might be a nuclear bomb. That's according to several definitions of nuclear criticality that I looked up. But I do find it hard to believe anyone would be quite so stupid as to put enough fissionable stuff that close together. So, someone tell me this is wrong. Please? What is missing here is the 'sudden pressure' component of a bomb. If the containment vessel steams up and breaches it still won't be the same as compressing a ball of uranium or plutonium with a perfectly calibrated surrounding high explosive charge detonated at the exact right sequence that causes it to evenly reduce it's size by orders of magnitude until it must re-expand in a super critical state. Edited March 17, 2011 by animatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crushdepth Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I wouldn't have believed it or been concerned about it, except that it's the owners that said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Translation: It might be a nuclear bomb. That's according to several definitions of nuclear criticality that I looked up. But I do find it hard to believe anyone would be quite so stupid as to put enough fissionable stuff that close together. So, someone tell me this is wrong. Please? It won't explode like a bomb. It comes silent and to releases lots af radioactivity and heat. Through the heat that is going to be released is unlikely to ignite the neighbouring rods. The only danger is that the area is off limits so the remaining rods will heat up and ignite by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Puschl Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Disclaimer: Off topic post concerning image viewing problems jfchandler, thanks for your effort, you're doing a great job. I too can't view your attached images. It might be that you exceeded the allowed disk space quota. You can check by going to My Settings in the top bar, and then in the side bar select Manage Attachments If you reached your attachment limit, you could either delete old files, or go from uploading images to linking external images. By uploading images you make sure that they will be available until you delete them yourself. That's what happens if you drag&drop or copy&paste the image into the editor. To link the external image, right click the source image (in your browser) and select Copy Image Address (or similar, depending on OS and browser). Then click the Insert Image icon in the post editor, right click the image URL textbox and select Paste. Linked images don't put load on the thaivisa.com server because your browser fetches the image from the original source (example below: http://www.thairath..../o2/420/555.jpg), but they disappear if the original source disappears. It's good to attach images coming from dynamic pages and from servers that should not be bombarded with unnecessary traffic at this time (read: needed by the people IN Japan), and to link to images coming from foreign news channels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crushdepth Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Ok so 're-criticality' might not mean a bang, more like running the reactor again but with the core *outside* the box? That would suck plenty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) White House Press Briefing Statement on Fukushima -- March 16, by Press Secretary Jay Carney On a separate issue, the Chairman of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, Greg Jaczko, came to the White House today to brief the President. He gave the President an update on the deteriorating situation at the nuclear power plant in Japan. Others in attendance at the briefing included National Security Advisor Tom Donilon, Homeland Security Advisor John Brennan, Deputy National Security Advisor Denis McDonough, White House Chief of Staff Bill Daley, and John Holdren, the Director of the Office of Science and Technology Policy.In the briefing Chairman Jaczko updated the President on the status of the reactors at the plant in Japan and on additional protective measures the United States is taking to ensure the safety of American citizens in that region of Japan. He informed the President that it was his recommendation -- and this recommendation has turned into the advice of the State Department -- that American citizens in Japan evacuate -- those American citizens who are within a 50-mile radius of the reactors evacuate from that area. This is the same advice that the NRC would give if this incident were taking place in the United States, to evacuate beyond a 50-mile radius. Q Jay, is the White House satisfied with the quality and quantity of information coming from Japan about the situation? MR. CARNEY: Steve, yes. The fact is that it is the information that our independent experts are getting in Japan that led to the recommendation by the NRC that American citizens be evacuated beyond a 50-mile radius. It is obviously a very fluid situation and everybody is searching for the most -- the best information available in a crisis situation. Obviously, the Japanese who have the lead on this, as this is a crisis in their country, are working very hard to get the best information possible. And we are working alongside them to get that information and then evaluate it independently to make the kind of recommendation that NRC Chairman Jaczko made and that the State Department is following. Q And are you satisfied with how they're handling it? Because it seems to be spiraling out of control. MR. CARNEY: It is a crisis situation, Steve. I would remind you that the lead in dealing with the crisis is the Japanese government. We are aiding and assisting in every way we can, and we have a team of people there with a variety of special capabilities. We have offered equipment and we are working with the Japanese who have the lead on this very critical situation. Q And one more thing, that you said you've offered equipment, but have they accepted it? Are they accepting all the U.S. offers for assistance? MR. CARNEY: I think I mentioned yesterday some of the equipment that they have accepted. I'm not aware of any offers that have been -- not taken up. So I think that we are working as hard as we can, our experts in Japan, on this and helping the Japanese as best we can, and offering all the technical advice and equipment that we can to help them deal with this situation. Q And just a point here. Up to now the United States has been saying U.S. citizens should follow the instructions that are coming from the Japanese government. Now it appears that you're saying listen to the NRC. Which way is it? I mean, are they -- MR. CARNEY: Well, this is new information. When the situation was what it was the other day and yesterday, based on the data that the NRC was analyzing, their advice was in agreement with what the Japanese government was saying, and therefore, our advice was the same. And therefore, we told American citizens to follow the instructions of the Japanese government. We are now saying, based on our independent analysis of the deteriorating situation -- we all have watched on television and read about the damage at the various reactors and the potential for emissions -- based on that new information, the new data, the independent analysis, the NRC is now advising an evacuation beyond a 50-mile radius. So because that -- the advice is no longer in agreement, we are obviously advising American citizens that they listen to the NRC and the State Department. Q Jay, doesn't that raise a big question? I mean, do you still have confidence in what the Japanese government is saying, if you are saying their advice doesn't go far enough? MR. CARNEY: I'm not sure of the nature of your question. We -- the Japanese government -- this is an incident that's happened in Japan. The Japanese government is evaluating the data; we are evaluating it as well, and we are making an independent recommendation for American citizens. It's not a question of -- again, to make it clear, this crisis is happening in Japan. So obviously the Japanese government has the lead here with regards to dealing with the crisis and advising its people. We have a lot of Americans in Japan, and when the data that we receive is analyzed independently, we're going to give advice based on our analysis. And that's what we're doing today. http://www.whitehous...-carney-3162011 Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tywais Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Translation: It might be a nuclear bomb. That's according to several definitions of nuclear criticality that I looked up. But I do find it hard to believe anyone would be quite so stupid as to put enough fissionable stuff that close together. So, someone tell me this is wrong. Please? Earlier today I posted 3 articles explaining why it can't go nuclear in terms of nuclear explosion that we think of from a bomb. Posts start here I suspect there was some misunderstanding or communication problem being passed to the news. Going critical also means that fission (neutron production) has started and can self-sustain. This will cause enormous amounts of radiation (neutron) and heat and runaway until fuel exhausted, melted completely or combinations. Some light reading here > Critical Mass and Criticality accident Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) NHK just updating on the truck based water spraying, saying it's concluded/finished for tonight with the use of 30 tons of water on Reactor #3. Says 5 fire trucks in total were involved, including two larger ones each holding 10 tons of water apiece and able to spray the water a distance of 80 meters. Says the ground based spraying concluded at 8:09 pm Japan time / 6:09 pm Thai time. Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckamuck Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The problem I fear coming is that if the rods in the cooling pool decay enough to lose their metal shielding, the uranium pellets will tumble out and make a pile on the floor of the pool. At that point if there was a chance for them to begin a chain reaction, this is when it would happen. And although this would not make a nuclear bomb style blast, it would create a tremendous amount of radiation. Just being exposed they would make a lot a lot of radiation even without going critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) I switched from TV's advanced/Flash based uploader to the basic uploader...which seems to be more about attaching a file... Is this viewable now? Any difference using the different upload method.. These are video screen captures via jpg... There's no external source that can be linked to..other than the capture file saved on my PC. Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWalkingMan Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I switched from TV's advanced/Flash based uploader to the basic uploader...which seems to be more about attaching a file... Is this viewable now? Any difference using the different upload method.. These are video screen captures via jpg... There's no external source that can be linked to..other than the capture file saved on my PC. I can see the picture. That truck is normally used for airport fires and can shoot water up to 80 meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James3212 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Nope, still not working for me... Try to inline them if possible or post somewhere online then link to it if its not too much of a trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) NHK warning of another possible earthquake coming... Tokyo and Chiba. Apparently they have some kind of advance warning system... Reporting tremors in the studio... magnitude 5.8 in Chiba area off the coast... 9:32 pm Japan time. Says no tsunami risk from this aftershock. Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The problem I fear coming is that if the rods in the cooling pool decay enough to lose their metal shielding, the uranium pellets will tumble out and make a pile on the floor of the pool. At that point if there was a chance for them to begin a chain reaction, this is when it would happen. And although this would not make a nuclear bomb style blast, it would create a tremendous amount of radiation. Just being exposed they would make a lot a lot of radiation even without going critical. ... they are going to melt through the pool within 24 hours and reach groundwatrer at some point or even the sea/ocean depending on the geological constellation. Only when the buning mass reaches the heat within our planet things will have stopped. Before that we're exposed from high to highest radiation in various forms. The plutonium uranium mixed rods are the most dangerous. When it reaches the ground water or sea water our food-chain will affected (sea-food will be out of question for a large area) and for the years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Correct, the NHK broadcast mentioned that the larger trucks are the same ones used for airport firefighting... I switched from TV's advanced/Flash based uploader to the basic uploader...which seems to be more about attaching a file... Is this viewable now? Any difference using the different upload method.. These are video screen captures via jpg... There's no external source that can be linked to..other than the capture file saved on my PC. I can see the picture. That truck is normally used for airport fires and can shoot water up to 80 meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdietz Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) 21:32 Kanto earthquake Japanese Scale J4, Magnitude M5.8, no Tsunami warning. Epicenter Chiba depth 40km. Edited March 17, 2011 by Jdietz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Magnitude map for the recent EQ: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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