Come On Ladies, Let's Talk Reality

[seonai]

Hey there ladies, girls and females... let's get this forum up and running.... I log in briefly late at night due to work pressure and what do I see.... cosmetics?????? I mean PLEASE....... there is so much more to discuss. Only last night I had a huge debate with Farang males about the fact that Farang males have forgotten how to treat Farang females while living in Thailand...... any ideas???????

Seonai

[loong]

Size - Does it really matter?

(please say no)

[seonai]

Loong what do you mean? Size????? I didn't mention size???? Or did I miss you joke????

[seonai]

size would be far more interesting than L'oreal and Body Shop

[khall64au]

Methinks Loong is looking for re-assurance that small willy's really do count!!!

[loong]

Sorry , I thought you were bored with topics like cosmetics and wanted a topic you could get your teeth into (not literally I might add!!)

Besides as you get more men looking in here than women.....AND they want to know the truth!

Does size matter

(anyone post yes - goes on my ignore member list) (ignore member? Freudian slip - oops)

[seonai]

it's what you do with it baby, size never came into it........

How did we get to this level......

From cosmetics to willys......

[loong]

it's what you do with it baby, size never came into it........

How did we get to this level......

From cosmetics to willys......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gooood start

How did we get to this level, well sometimes things pop up unexpectedly

[khall64au]

But not always the ones on your level....

[thohts]

Hey there ladies, girls and females... let's get this forum up and running.... I log in briefly late at night due to work pressure and what do I see.... cosmetics?????? I mean PLEASE....... there is so much more to discuss. Only last night I had a huge debate with Farang males about the fact that Farang males have forgotten how to treat Farang females while living in Thailand...... any ideas???????

Seonai

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Was your debate conclusive?

[britmaveric]

Seonai - topic you had a debate about, well has been done here to death. Dare say that might bore us all. Feel free be creative and I dare say more than makeup can be discussed.

[kayo]

So why did I bother about the silicon injections if willy size does not matter...

[taxexile]

i think it was better when you girls were talking about thrush and itchy nipples.

aaah the good old days.

[chico]

well sometimes things pop up unexpectedly

"unexpectedly???"

OP:

if you are talking about how farang ladies in LOS should be treated, that certainly means you are looking for a different treatment than thai ladies get?!

i guess, you're not looking for any worse treatment, but any better treatment would mean an absolute discrimination of thai ladies!

[sbk]

HUH??? If you reread her post she was discussing this in another thread chico. Get off your high horse.

Seonai, only problem with serious discussions is you always get some bozo with nothing really interesting to contribute who has to add his two cents worth about how bad farang women are blah blah blah.

And size only starts to matter when its really just too small. Otherwise, I agree, skill, enthusiasm and concern for the partner's enjoyment is far more important than size (Feel better now Loong?)

So, Seonai, what kind of important discussion would you like to have? Me, I always enjoy talking about the things that I had to learn to live here; the art of compromise, learning patience etc. The person I am here is not the person I was in the US. But others find that dull and would rather have a controversial discussion.

Ball is in your court

[thohts]

I'll admit.. I'm a guy. I clicked on the topic because I thought it truly would have been interesting to read a non cosmetics-related topic in this forum. I like it here because many of the posters are genuinely thoughtful and informed.

I think the "penis size" topic has been beaten to death.. but the second post ("Size - Does it really matter?") could be about breast size, also.

For me, I don't care if a woman has small or large breasts, or anything in between. I actually feel sorry for women with very large breasts, because a lot of my female friends with disporportionately large breasts are always talking about how much having large breasts hurts their back. I only notice small breasts when a woman asks, "Are my breasts small?", to which I promptly answer something like "Yes...and?". I think most women with very small breasts just learn to live with it.. and I don't even think twice about it.

I think having decent-sized breasts benefits self-esteem more than it would attract a member of the opposite sex in a positive way. Any guy with some sense will see beyond your breast size and look to the person. True, many guys are more aggresively attracted to decent-looking women with large breasts, but so what? Who would want all that attention from shallow men who secretly have fantasies about you nursing them, anyway?

I've been physically attracted to women with both large and small breasts, even one woman with very visibly lop-sided breasts. Big breasts will help if you're trying to attract men in heat (many men always are) but not men with more noble intentions. The old saying, "The bigger they are the harder they fall" also applies to large-breasted women in their old age.

Surgically-assisted breasts, I think, will turn off more decent men than not. Women who do this probably are trying to boost their self-esteem more than attract someone interesting of the opposite sex, which is all fine and dandy. But for me, it's a turnoff. Especially since they LOOK fake.

Who cares about penis size? It would be like asking if large cars are better than small cars. There's a market (supply/demand) for both. Some Japanese cars can be pretty big, and some American cars can be pretty small. Breast size is far more visible than penis size, so I think women have more of an issue with it in public, whereas men have more of an issue with it in private. It's funny when I hear women talk about men that take Viagra or somesuch, when many women wear size-boosting bras. (Not the fancy kind.. all but the largest bras seem to have some extra padding)

That being said, why do so many women wear makeup, anyway? To boost self-esteem? To "look" better? I think most women look better without it simply because it hides natural beauty or ugliness (yes, natural ugliness can be beautiful, too, especially when you're 40-50+. Please tell grandma to stop caking it on...) I think most men actually hate more than a little make-up on a woman.

(Oops. Is that talking about cosmetics?)

Edited September 18, 2005 by thohts

[alaina]

Hey there ladies, girls and females... let's get this forum up and running.... I log in briefly late at night due to work pressure and what do I see.... cosmetics?????? I mean PLEASE....... there is so much more to discuss. Only last night I had a huge debate with Farang males about the fact that Farang males have forgotten how to treat Farang females while living in Thailand...... any ideas???????

Seonai

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seonai, only problem with serious discussions is you always get some bozo with nothing really interesting to contribute who has to add his two cents worth about how bad farang women are blah blah blah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One of the less inflammatory comments I often read on this board about farang women is that they are "not feminine". Interesting that haircuts, cosmetics and clothes do dominate this forum in some ways because isn't that stereotypically "feminine" girl talk.

Personally, those things don't interest me much as well and I do wish that more serious topics didn't usually get derailed by a few trolls. Generally the complaints about farang men are about the trolls that are rude and they want a confrontation. Those threads are so predictable that I can give a scenario that is 95% of them:

1. Post about how men and women relate here

2. Several posts adding valid points

3. Troll comes along usually around page 2 or 3 (any time now...) and makes a "witty" comment using one of the following original topics (AKA the post equivalent of a "bad touch") :

a) Big butts

Non-feminine

c) "Feminazis" are ruining.... blah, blah, blah

d) In "cave man days" men acted like, uh, cave men and they should now too

e) My ex-wife took, did, said...blah, blah, blah

f) Stop insulting Thai women (when nobody did)

g) If I forgot one, I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to correct my omission

4. The troll gets piled on. 95% of comments are nicer and more reasonable than sed troll deserves.

5. One of three things happens with troll:

a) Troll is amazed by lack of flames of the caliber expected

Troll cannot read and continues to spout the same comments

1a) Troll gets banned

2a) Troll gets flamed in the caliber worthy, and then banned

c) Troll leaves seeking a better trolling place

6. During these proceedings, a few men have joined the discussion and are also refuting the troll and/or agreeing with a few points from both sides in a more polite tone.

7. At this point things are nice again on the thread and everybody is busy trying to resolve any ugly words exchanged and the content of the thread is minimally discussed.

-or-

The thread is locked.

Anyhow, I still have no idea what "less feminine" means by the end of this all. My definition of masculine and feminine is comfortable in one's body and with one's gender. Does "not feminine" to someone else mean not twiring my hair the right way or expecting a guy to help clean after doing all the cooking?

The World may never know.

Edited September 18, 2005 by pearl

[loong]

Hey there ladies, girls and females... let's get this forum up and running.... I log in briefly late at night due to work pressure and what do I see.... cosmetics?????? I mean PLEASE....... there is so much more to discuss. Only last night I had a huge debate with Farang males about the fact that Farang males have forgotten how to treat Farang females while living in Thailand...... any ideas???????

Seonai

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One of the less inflammatory comments I often read on this board about farang women is that they are "not feminine". Interesting that haircuts, cosmetics and clothes do dominate this forum in some ways because isn't that stereotypically "feminine" girl talk.........................

Anyhow, I still have no idea what "less feminine" means by the end of this all. My definition of masculine and feminine is comfortable in one's body and with one's gender. Does "not feminine" to someone else mean not twiring my hair the right way or expecting a guy to help clean after doing all the cooking?

The World may never know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It all depends on one's prospective I spose

Macho and feminine...........

A lot of people would consider a male nurse, hairdresser, florist as non-macho.

Same as a woman working as a plumber, steelworker, docker etc as non - feminine.

Some men will brand a girl as a lesbian - because she doesn't fancy him!

Often a man will consider a woman un-feminine if he threatens his sense of masculinity, especially in the workplace.

My idea of non-feminine......

Exessively muscular (as opposed to well toned)

'Butch type haircuts" - unfair I know, but I can't help it, I'm a man

Women wearing traditional man's clothes (pinstripe man's suit etc)

Woman with skinhead haircut, Doc martens etc

Women who swear like a trooper.

Really hairy legs and armpits (sorry)

Women who think that they are superior to men

Women that look like obvious ladyboys

Most feminists

Edited September 18, 2005 by loong

[thohts]

It all depends on one's prospective I spose

Macho and feminine...........

A lot of people would consider a male nurse, hairdresser, florist as non-macho.

Same as a woman working as a plumber, steelworker, docker etc as non - feminine.

Some men will brand a girl as a lesbian - because she doesn't fancy him!

Often a man will consider a woman un-feminine if he threatens his sense of masculinity, especially in the workplace.

My idea of non-feminine......

Exessively muscular (as opposed to well toned)

'Butch type haircuts" - unfair I know, but I can't help it, I'm a man

Women wearing traditional man's clothes (pinstripe man's suit etc)

Woman with skinhead haircut, Doc martens etc

Women who swear like a trooper.

Really hairy legs and armpits (sorry)

Women who think that they are superior to men

Women that look like obvious ladyboys

Most feminists

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You say that "Often a man will consider a woman un-feminine if he threatens his sense of masculinity..."

and then go on to list traits/characteristics that you consider un-feminine.

Would you consider feminists to be a threat to masculinity? (Since most feminists wouldn't make a man feel like a man or play into the traditional role of what a "woman" should be) It would take a man who is very secure in his identity to be involved with a feminist.

How about some of the other things you list? Would those things make the typical man feel like less of a man, the "role" already being fulfilled by the woman that exhibits those qualities/traits?

[alaina]

My idea of non-feminine......

Exessively muscular (as opposed to well toned)

'Butch type haircuts" - unfair I know, but I can't help it, I'm a man

Women wearing traditional man's clothes (pinstripe man's suit etc)

Woman with skinhead haircut, Doc martens etc

Women who swear like a trooper.

Really hairy legs and armpits (sorry)

Women who think that they are superior to men

Women that look like obvious ladyboys

Most feminists

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Halle Berry in a suit. Not what I'd consider un-feminine, but okay.

Gloria Steinem. Not one of my favorite writers, but at least her stint as a playboy bunny and her appearance stopped the argument that "Feminists are all ugly women who can't get dates." Some had to resort to using actual substance in their arguments with her.

I'll stick with my definition for now.

[loong]

It all depends on one's prospective I spose

Macho and feminine...........

A lot of people would consider a male nurse, hairdresser, florist as non-macho.

Same as a woman working as a plumber, steelworker, docker etc as non - feminine.

Some men will brand a girl as a lesbian - because she doesn't fancy him!

Often a man will consider a woman un-feminine if he threatens his sense of masculinity, especially in the workplace.

My idea of non-feminine......

Exessively muscular (as opposed to well toned)

'Butch type haircuts" - unfair I know, but I can't help it, I'm a man

Women wearing traditional man's clothes (pinstripe man's suit etc)

Woman with skinhead haircut, Doc martens etc

Women who swear like a trooper.

Really hairy legs and armpits (sorry)

Women who think that they are superior to men

Women that look like obvious ladyboys

Most feminists

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You say that "Often a man will consider a woman un-feminine if he threatens his sense of masculinity..."

and then go on to list traits/characteristics that you consider un-feminine.

Would you consider feminists to be a threat to masculinity? (Since most feminists wouldn't make a man feel like a man or play into the traditional role of what a "woman" should be) It would take a man who is very secure in his identity to be involved with a feminist.

How about some of the other things you list? Would those things make the typical man feel like less of a man, the "role" already being fulfilled by the woman that exhibits those qualities/traits?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The 1st part of my reply was based on my observations of and conversations with other men, not on my personal perception.

The 2nd list...

My idea of non-feminine......

Exessively muscular (as opposed to well toned)

'Butch type haircuts" - unfair I know, but I can't help it, I'm a man 

Women wearing traditional man's clothes (pinstripe man's suit etc)

Woman with skinhead haircut, Doc martens etc

Women who swear like a trooper.

Really hairy legs and armpits (sorry)

Women who think that they are superior to men

Women that look like obvious ladyboys   

Most feminists 

......

is from within myself. I make no apologies, even though some of it may have been programmed into me. The last 2 with the were 'tongue in cheek' I hope that was obvious.

I personally do not feel that my masculinity is threatened by any woman, whatever her appearance or sexuality. Do women feel that their femininity is threatened by a man with feminine traits? I doubt it! Why would I feel threatened?

A long time ago, I was probably leaning towards the bigotted type attitude but I have changed. I have become even more enlightened since spending time in Thailand.

The question was asked and I answered it

How many women agree with the highlighted points above?

How many disagree?

What do men or women see as non-macho traits in men?

[loong]

Pearl

Ms Berry in a suit is definitely beautiful and she looks femimine, but that is hardly a traditional male suit is.it?

I spose I should have said

A woman in a man's suit, particularly when with a man's shirt and tie.

And more so with a man's haircut

[Boo]

I don't see a feminine looking man & think him any less a man because of the way he dresses, acts, looks or his ideas, but have been on the receiving end of hostility from some men because I am a 6ft women who doesn't wear girly dresses & rarely cares about other peoples opinions about me. (This has only ever been in Thailand or on this forum, interesting eh? )

The thing a lot of men don't actually understand, is that being a women is a lot more than having nice hair, wearing girly clothes & acting, talking, being a certain way. Only men seem to have these ideas IMO, as to be a women is something that can't be explained, you just are.

Some guys idea of what a women is & whether I conform to it plays no part in my life as to be a women is just like breathing, you do it subconsiously.

I could look like a man, cut all my hair off, wear mens clothes & shoes, spit, swear etc but ultimately, I will still & always will be, a women.

I think it's interesting that some men feel threatened by a women acting superior to a man, imagine how women feel, nearly all men feel superior to women as proven by how easy it is for so many of them beleiving they have a right to tell women how to look & behave

Having a preference is one thing, but activley discriminating or abusing someone because of it, is entirely another.

[sbk]

I prefer to deal with people and find something to like (or dislike) in a person because of who that person is, not because of their gender. I prefer to deal with each person based on what kind of person they are rather than their masculinity or femininity. I think this is why so many men have difficulties with effeminate gays or ladyboys and women don't particularly care, is because women are less likely to pigeonhole someone based on their gender or masculine or feminine side.

I find that comment about disliking women who think they are superior quite typically male, what do you think of men who think they are superior? Personally, I find that kind of superiority complex in anyone supremely arrogant, male or female.

[loong]

Boo

You're right, no matter how a woman looks, she is still a woman.

Also, discrimination against a woman no matterhow she looks is definitely wrong.

I hope that you haven't got the wrong impression of me. I was simply stating what I consider unfeminine in a woman. Probably the same as many men. I would never discriminate on any unfair basis.

[Boo]

loong, that wasn't a direct post to you, just a general post. I know what you mean & as I said, everyone has a preference, me included. If you don't find a women with short hair & who likes to dress as a man attractive thats your perogative, there will always be someone who does, who probably doesn't like girly women. One mans meat & all that

It's when a man tries to tell women who don't look how he wants, that they are not real women that gets my back up. I wouldn't tell the fat, larger swilling, tattooed footy fan that he isn't a real man because he doesn't conform to my idea of what a man should be. Or that he isn't masculine enough or well mannered enough or he's too fat & hasn't he let himself go as all Englsih men do (this is just an example of of what we get posted on here about women) or he must be an american man as they are all overweight & have bad attitudes...... etc etc etc

[gintOnic]

Hey there ladies, girls and females... let's get this forum up and running.... I log in briefly late at night due to work pressure and what do I see.... cosmetics?????? I mean PLEASE....... there is so much more to discuss. Only last night I had a huge debate with Farang males about the fact that Farang males have forgotten how to treat Farang females while living in Thailand...... any ideas???????

Seonai

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seonai,

Are you saying that farang males don't treat farang females while living in Thailand? How so?

gintOnic

[kat]

Actually Seonai, there have been other topics in this sub-forum; makeup/cosmetics is only one. What's wrong with discussing cosmetics/haircuts?

I wrote a long response to one of your threads, but you never responded or acknowledged it. So, I guess what one sees as real or non-topics is all relative.

In regards to this topic, every farang/Western woman will know exactly what you are talking about. It is not a matter of the silly reactionary statement that we expect to be treated better than Thai women, in a place where a *double-standard is overwhelmingly geared towards Thai/Asian women, because that is the stated preference of the majority of men in Thailand/Asia; and that is not a barb, but a fact. But it is fine, because in all honesty I would not be attracted to the overwhelming majority either at home or here.

The thing that I can relate to on this thread, however, is that I noticed a significant portion of Western men have forgotten how to relate to a woman who is not beholden to him in some way. They are also living in a society that treats men as an unquestioned privileged class, and men with white skin or Western status as some sort of celebrity.

My suspicion is that so many of them have attracted or sought out women who have an overt or covert economic interest - or view them as the latest fashion accessory - that they have forgotten how to relate to women who have none. I think they are also able to slack off quite a bit here - intellectually, ethically, and socially, which becomes more noticeable when they are interacting with women who were shaped by the same cultural norms, and in general, by a higher standard of education and expectation. Most of these men are in relationships with huge age or status/education differentials, which would not be possible where they are from, and also have an undeniable impact on the relationship.

And let's face it, some of them are just bitter, mean, and completely burnt out and are here as a last resort. They have to maintain a *double-standard and pervasive hatred to rationalize the other issues they don't want to confront in their "trade-offs".

Just my thoughts and observations, from a general standpoint, meaning: I do know there are exceptions, but not too many.

*double-standards: every Thai woman, no matter who she is or what she looks like, is ALWAYS more perfect, etc., etc. than every Western/farang woman, no matter who she is, or what she looks like. Most often it is enough that she is Asian or Thai, which is more characteristic of a fetish, rather than a real assessment.

Before you flame me, I too think that Thai and Asian women are very beautiful. They have beautiful bodies and bone structures - no argument there. However, there is also a variety of different people and characters, just like there is a variety among Western people.

Hey there ladies, girls and females... let's get this forum up and running.... I log in briefly late at night due to work pressure and what do I see.... cosmetics?????? I mean PLEASE....... there is so much more to discuss. Only last night I had a huge debate with Farang males about the fact that Farang males have forgotten how to treat Farang females while living in Thailand...... any ideas???????

Seonai

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seonai, only problem with serious discussions is you always get some bozo with nothing really interesting to contribute who has to add his two cents worth about how bad farang women are blah blah blah.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One of the less inflammatory comments I often read on this board about farang women is that they are "not feminine". Interesting that haircuts, cosmetics and clothes do dominate this forum in some ways because isn't that stereotypically "feminine" girl talk.

Personally, those things don't interest me much as well and I do wish that more serious topics didn't usually get derailed by a few trolls. Generally the complaints about farang men are about the trolls that are rude and they want a confrontation. Those threads are so predictable that I can give a scenario that is 95% of them:

1. Post about how men and women relate here

2. Several posts adding valid points

3. Troll comes along usually around page 2 or 3 (any time now...) and makes a "witty" comment using one of the following original topics (AKA the post equivalent of a "bad touch") :

a) Big butts

Non-feminine

c) "Feminazis" are ruining.... blah, blah, blah

d) In "cave man days" men acted like, uh, cave men and they should now too

e) My ex-wife took, did, said...blah, blah, blah

f) Stop insulting Thai women (when nobody did)

g) If I forgot one, I'm sure somebody will be along shortly to correct my omission

4. The troll gets piled on. 95% of comments are nicer and more reasonable than sed troll deserves.

5. One of three things happens with troll:

a) Troll is amazed by lack of flames of the caliber expected

Troll cannot read and continues to spout the same comments

1a) Troll gets banned

2a) Troll gets flamed in the caliber worthy, and then banned

c) Troll leaves seeking a better trolling place

6. During these proceedings, a few men have joined the discussion and are also refuting the troll and/or agreeing with a few points from both sides in a more polite tone.

7. At this point things are nice again on the thread and everybody is busy trying to resolve any ugly words exchanged and the content of the thread is minimally discussed.

-or-

The thread is locked.

Anyhow, I still have no idea what "less feminine" means by the end of this all. My definition of masculine and feminine is comfortable in one's body and with one's gender. Does "not feminine" to someone else mean not twiring my hair the right way or expecting a guy to help clean after doing all the cooking?

The World may never know.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Spot on.

It all depends on one's prospective I spose

Macho and feminine...........

A lot of people would consider a male nurse, hairdresser, florist as non-macho.

Same as a woman working as a plumber, steelworker, docker etc as non - feminine.

Some men will brand a girl as a lesbian - because she doesn't fancy him!

Often a man will consider a woman un-feminine if he threatens his sense of masculinity, especially in the workplace.

My idea of non-feminine......

Exessively muscular (as opposed to well toned)

'Butch type haircuts" - unfair I know, but I can't help it, I'm a man

Women wearing traditional man's clothes (pinstripe man's suit etc)

Woman with skinhead haircut, Doc martens etc

Women who swear like a trooper.

Really hairy legs and armpits (sorry)

Women who think that they are superior to men

Women that look like obvious ladyboys

Most feminists

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

... It would take a man who is very secure in his identity to be involved with a feminist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is exactly right. You can even substitute "feminist" for an independent woman with independent thoughts and opinions.

Edited September 18, 2005 by kat

[Sheryl]

Sorry , I thought you were bored with topics like cosmetics and wanted a topic you could get your teeth into (not literally I might add!!)

Besides as you get more men looking in here than women.....AND they want to know the truth!

Does size matter

(anyone post yes - goes on my ignore member list) (ignore member? Freudian slip - oops)

As others have said -- absolutely not at all. Performance, not size of equipment, is what matters. In my experience, in fact, the best lovers are the less "endowed". Guys who are larger seem to think they needn't bother on technique. WRONG.....

Actually the size thing is a guy issue. As women well know, the relevant female anatomy is very elastic & anything from a pinky finger to a 10lb baby can snugly fit (although the latter not without pain!).

A little secret most guys (for obvious reasons) don't know...size differences become much less pronounced when, to quote an earlier post, things "pop up". The smaller have a comparatively larger increase than the larger do, sort of reducing the disparity. trust me on that.

So guys everywhere, please stop worrying on this issue and start attneding to what you do with what you've got. Your wives/gfs will be the happier for it and about half the world's spam mail will stop!

[kat]

That was a great post by Sheryl, and I mostly agree .... sort of.

Size mostly doesn't matter except in extremes. I hate to break it to you, but there is such a thing as too small or too large. But I have dated both, and neither was the reason for me losing interest.