Spouse Visa

[Siamesepiggster]

Hi,

I would be extremely grateful for advice on the following circumstances;

I used to live & work in Thailand for 5 years (work permit holder etc). I returned to the UK two and a half years ago to start a manufacturing business with 50% of the work done in Th. When I went back I managed to get a 6 month tourist visa for my Thai girlfiend, and she has had another 2 successive 6 month tourist visas since, within different calender years obviously, with the last visa expiring in July of this year. We have now been together over 3 years.

From reading the 'spouse visa' requirements notes in the British Emb web site it appears that she would qualify? Therefore I have the following questions;

1) Am I right in thinking this, as we are about to make the application?

2) Do I need to be present at the embassy in Bkk when we make the application?

3) Will the fact that I do not have my own property in the UK (temporarily living in parent's house) be detremental to our application? (According to a linked web site that gives advice on this, you can still be eligible if the property you stay in has a seperate/private 'living area', which this proerty does).

Additional notes;

She has obviously been staying in Thailand in between the 6 month stints in the UK with me, but during this time I have been travelling to Th to see her/business. I make around 7 trips/year.

Many thanks.

[the scouser]

I take it that your g/f will be applying for a settlement (fiancée) visa? If this is the case, then:-

1) The visa officer will judge the application on its own merits, but, from the information you've posted, I do think she has a good chance of success.

2) No.

3) On the assumption that your parent owns the house, you should supply a letter from your parent stating how many bedrooms the house has, how many people currently live there, whether it is mortgaged/owned outright, and giving their consent for the 2 of you to live there. The rule is that you should have one bedroom which is for the exclusive use of you and your intended.

In addition, you should supply evidence of your ability to support your fiancée by submitting your last 6 months bank statements and, as you appear to be self-employed, your last 2 years accounts. Furthermore, you should provide proof of your relationship; i.e. photos, letters, e-mails, greetings cards etc., although I do believe that her successive visit visas and your trips to Thailand, by themselves, go a long way towards substantiating the relationship.

The visa will enable your fiancée to stay in the UK for 6 months during which time you will be expected to marry. It will assist the application if you have a rough idea of the intended marriage date and the ceremony; i.e. is it going to be a big "do" or just a quickie down the registrar's office? This shows that you've actually thought about what's involved.

Currently, there is c. a 20-week wait between submitting the application and the interview. However, in view of the prima facie evidence of your relationship, a more basic interview may be undertaken, in which case, your fiancée could get her visa within a matter of 1-2 weeks.

Cheers,

Scouse.

[Siamesepiggster]

Hi,

Many thanks for your quick response. Actually the visa we plan to apply for is the 'Unmarried Partner' visa as we do not plan to marry for a year or two, if at all. Please see extract from the Embassy web site below relating to this. I wonder if you would be good enough to revise your answer given this scenario? Many thanks.

________________________________________________________

Can I join my unmarried partner in the UK?

You can apply to join your unmarried partner in the UK, as long as:

they currently live and are settled in the UK, or they are coming to live permanently in the UK, and

you are aged over 18 and your sponsor is over 18.

Back to questions

How do I qualify to join my unmarried partner in the UK?

You and your unmarried partner must show that:

any previous marriage, or similar relationship, has permanently broken down

you have been living together in a relationship similar to marriage for two years or more

you have suitable accommodation which is owned or lived in only by you and your household, and where you and your dependants can live without any help from public funds

you can support yourselves and any dependants without any help from public funds

you intend to live together permanently

your partner is not under 18, and

you are not under 18.

The Entry Clearance Officer will need to see evidence of a two-year relationship. This may include:

documents showing joint commitments, such as bank accounts, investments, rent agreements or mortgages

letters linking you to the same address, and

official records of your address, such as your National Insurance card or health card.

At first, you will be allowed to stay and work in the UK for two years. Near the end of this time, if you are still partners and intend to continue living together, you can apply to stay permanently in the UK.

___________________________________________________________

I take it that your g/f will be applying for a settlement (fiancée) visa? If this is the case, then:-

1) The visa officer will judge the application on its own merits, but, from the information you've posted, I do think she has a good chance of success.

2) No.

3) On the assumption that your parent owns the house, you should supply a letter from your parent stating how many bedrooms the house has, how many people currently live there, whether it is mortgaged/owned outright, and giving their consent for the 2 of you to live there. The rule is that you should have one bedroom which is for the exclusive use of you and your intended.

In addition, you should supply evidence of your ability to support your fiancée by submitting your last 6 months bank statements and, as you appear to be self-employed, your last 2 years accounts. Furthermore, you should provide proof of your relationship; i.e. photos, letters, e-mails, greetings cards etc., although I do believe that her successive visit visas and your trips to Thailand, by themselves, go a long way towards substantiating the relationship.

The visa will enable your fiancée to stay in the UK for 6 months during which time you will be expected to marry. It will assist the application if you have a rough idea of the intended marriage date and the ceremony; i.e. is it going to be a big "do" or just a quickie down the registrar's office? This shows that you've actually thought about what's involved.

Currently, there is c. a 20-week wait between submitting the application and the interview. However, in view of the prima facie evidence of your relationship, a more basic interview may be undertaken, in which case, your fiancée could get her visa within a matter of 1-2 weeks.

Cheers,

Scouse.

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[the scouser]

Right, that does alter things a bit. Firstly, have a look at the immigration rules (para 295A) governing unmarried partners.

You will notice that it is a requirement for the applicant not only to have been in a relationship for at least 2 years, but for it to have been one "akin to marriage". What this means is that you and your g/f wil be expected to have lived together for the 2 years and to be able to substantiate this by adducing bills, bank statements, mortgage/rental agreements etc. in either joint names, or independently both, but resolving to the same address; i.e. that for the 2 years+ you have been involved in a relationship which, if it wasn't for the lack of a certificate, would lead people to conclude that you are, in fact, married.

If your relationship has been that close, then your g/f may get the visa, but if, for example, your g/f has cited you on her visit visa applications as being solely her boyfriend, rather than partner, then the visa officer could rely upon that for the purposes of refusing the partner visa; i.e. the applicant claims to have been in a relationship akin to marriage with Mr X for in excess of 2 years but I note that as recently as .... she described him on a visit visa application as being only her boyfriend........

Scouse.

[Siamesepiggster]

Scouse,

Many thanks for your yet again prompt & informative response. I hear and acknowledge what you say, in a nutshell I guess we'll just have to chance our luck, right? Just two final questions though;

1) Would it add any weight if I was present during the application (i.e. if my Thai girlfriend was challenged, she would most certainly 'crumble' at the first hurdle, whereas I would be more adept in fighting our corner - as has happened before).

2) Would the embassy indeed allow me to go up to the 'window' in the visa section when my girlfriend (partner) is called up, given the type of visa that this is? I've heard that given the new rules that they have due to overcrowding (?) that only the applicant can go up to the window?

Many thanks for your valuable advise.

Right, that does alter things a bit. Firstly, have a look at the immigration rules (para 295A) governing unmarried partners.

You will notice that it is a requirement for the applicant not only to have been in a relationship for at least 2 years, but for it to have been one "akin to marriage". What this means is that you and your g/f wil be expected to have lived together for the 2 years and to be able to substantiate this by adducing bills, bank statements, mortgage/rental agreements etc. in either joint names, or independently both, but resolving to the same address; i.e. that for the 2 years+ you have been involved in a relationship which, if it wasn't for the lack of a certificate, would lead people to conclude that you are, in fact, married.

If your relationship has been that close, then your g/f may get the visa, but if, for example, your g/f has cited you on her visit visa applications as being solely her boyfriend, rather than partner, then the visa officer could rely upon that for the purposes of refusing the partner visa; i.e. the applicant claims to have been in a relationship akin to marriage with Mr X for in excess of 2 years but I note that as recently as .... she described him on a visit visa application as being only her boyfriend........

Scouse.

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[the scouser]

SP,

As I understand it, the embassy now doesn't let any sponsors passed the front door, let alone deign to give them the opportunity to speak for themselves. I'm afraid, therefore, that whether you are present or not, won't make any difference to the outcome of the application (either positive or negative).

However, I do counsel to be careful when applying for the settlement visa, as, should it be refused, your g/f could find it difficult to get subsequent visit visas.

Scouse.

[GU22]

SP,

With respect to Scouse, you don't stand an earthly of getting her a settlement visa under the unmarried partners rule.

You either patently have not been living together in a relationship akin to marriage for at the least the last 2 years; or if you have, then you have lied to the embassy in order to get her visit visas.

If you are unwilling to marry, then waiting until the Civil Partnerships Act comes into force is an option you may want to consider.

See Statutory Instrument 2005 No. 1112 (C.47). The Civil Partnership Act 2004 (Commencement No. 1) Order 2005 and IMMIGRATION CONTROL AND FORMATION OF CIVIL PARTNERSHIPS

As Scouse has said, if you were to marry then getting her a spouse visa would, in the circumstances you describe, be a doddle.

BTW, even when sponsors were allowed into the visa section, they were not allowed to be present at the interview; except in very exceptional circumstances.

Edited September 18, 2005 by GU22

[Siamesepiggster]

GU 22,

Thanks for your reply. A few queries though,

1) Can I ask, with respect, why you seem so sure that we wouldn't stand an earlthly chance? I don't dispute what you are saying but being as I'm new to this forum all I know is that Scouse used to be an immigration officer (from reading a previous post where he mentioned this) and would therefore be very grateful if you could explain what you base your opinion on. Past experience etc? I need to make an educated decision as to whether I make this application, because as you rightly suggest, you only get one chance with these things.

2) On the 3 previous 6 month tourist visa applications I have described her as my 'girlfiend' and that we were living together. To me, girlfriend & partner mean the same thing, as I am not a lawyer. Would the embassy regard these

two terms differently?

3) Could you expand on the 'Civil Partnership' option. Would it be practical to pursue this?

4) To put all the cards on the table, the main reason I don't want to go the marriage route is that I don't want to lose half of everything if it goes pear shaped. Any protection if we get married in Thailand rather than the UK? I understand that where your domiciled dictates which laws the marriage operates under, i.e. if you normally live in Thailand the marriage falls under Thai law, regardless of where the marriage tool place.

Many thanks.

SP,

With respect to Scouse, you don't stand an earthly of getting her a settlement visa under the unmarried partners rule.

You either patently have not been living together in a relationship akin to marriage for at the least the last 2 years; or if you have, then you have lied to the embassy in order to get her visit visas.

If you are unwilling to marry, then waiting until the Civil Partnerships Act comes into force is an option you may want to consider.

See Statutory Instrument 2005 No. 1112 (C.47). The Civil Partnership Act 2004 (Commencement No. 1) Order 2005 and IMMIGRATION CONTROL AND FORMATION OF CIVIL PARTNERSHIPS

As Scouse has said, if you were to marry then getting her a spouse visa would, in the circumstances you describe, be a doddle.

BTW, even when sponsors were allowed into the visa section, they were not allowed to be present at the interview; except in very exceptional circumstances.

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[the scouser]

Hi SP,

Without knowing the full ins-and-outs of your relationship, it is difficult to state whether your g/f has a chance of qualifying or not. There follow the Home Office policy instructions on what constitutes "akin to marriage". Have a read, see for yourself, and judge whether your relationship matches the requirements. If you feel that they do, then make the application.

Scouse.

THE PARTIES HAVE BEEN LIVING TOGETHER IN A RELATIONSHIP AKIN TO MARRIAGE WHICH HAS SUBSISTED FOR TWO YEARS OR MORE

The intention of the Rules relating to unmarried partners is to allow genuine long-term relationships to continue. It is not an open door to couples who are in the early stages of a cohabiting relationship, but provides an opportunity for those couples who are already living together in a committed relationship akin to marriage to enter or remain in the United Kingdom on this basis alone. It will not benefit those couples who claim they are unable to live together because there is no provision in the Immigration Rules either of the UK or the partner's home country.

In order to assess whether a couple is in a genuine long-term relationship we would expect to see evidence of cohabitation for the preceding 2 year period. Short breaks apart of up to 6 months would be acceptable for good reasons, such as work commitments, or caring for a dependent relative. Evidence must show that the relationship continued throughout that period by visits, letters etc.

Where a couple claim that they have maintained their relationship during the 2 year period by merely visiting each other as often as they can, this will not be sufficient to satisfy these provision of the Rules. However where a couple have been living together in a committed relationship for the preceding 2 year period, barring short breaks, but have been dividing their time between countries (for example, by using the "visitor" category), this will be sufficient to meet the requirement.

Evidence of a committed relationship and proof of its length can take the form of:

- joint commitments, (such as joint bank accounts, investments, rent agreements, mortgage, death benefit etc);

- if there are children of the relationship, a record of their birth entry;

- correspondence which links them to the same address;

- any official records of their address (eg Doctors records, DSS record, national insurance record etc);

- letters from third parties may be of evidential value but should not of themselves form the sole basis of a claim;

- any other evidence that adequately demonstrates their commitment to each other.

It will not be necessary to provide all of the above, but caseworkers should be looking for sufficient conclusive evidence of the relationship.

[GU22]

SP,

My previous reply regarding your chances was based on the following

Where a couple claim that they have maintained their relationship during the 2 year period by merely visiting each other as often as they can, this will not be sufficient to satisfy these provision of the Rules.

I must admit that I was unaware that the rule went on to say

However where a couple have been living together in a committed relationship for the preceding 2 year period, barring short breaks, but have been dividing their time between countries (for example, by using the "visitor" category), this will be sufficient to meet the requirement.

My apologies for the confusion, and thanks to Scouse for pointing out my error.

For more details of the Civil Partnership Act, see Explanatory Notes to Civil Partnership Act 2004. However, I have to offer another apology. My knowledge of the provisions of this act was based on readings from other sites. It wasn't until I actually looked at the explanatory notes that I saw one very important proviso:

The purpose of the Civil Partnership Act is to enable same-sex couples to obtain legal recognition of their relationship by forming a civil partnership. They may do so by registering as civil partners of each other provided:

they are of the same sex;.......

So it's a non-starter for you, I'm afraid.

As for what would happen if you married and then divorced, sorry I don't know. I suggest that you ask a solicitor. However, I must admit to being surprised that your thoughts are going in this direction. Do you love her? do you trust her? If the answer to both is "Yes" then why are you worrying about divorce? If the answer to either is "No" then what the &lt;deleted&gt; are you doing? Dragging her over to the UK until you tire of her? That may seem harsh, but I cannot understand people who plan for their divorce before they're even married.

[Siamesepiggster]

Hi GU22,

Thanks for the update.

As for your last point, agree with what you say, but;

1) I'm not dragging her here until I tire of her. I believe that we are being responible, taking our time - where is the urgency for marriage if we are to be together forever? However I think it is more irresponible the farangs that marry the first bar girl that they see (mine isn't a bar girl by the way), they can't speak the language to communicate (I am fluent in Thai), they don't know anything about the culture and subsequently the marriage breaks down.

2) You say that you can't understand people that 'plan for divorce', I don't plan for divorce and I reckon we've got a higher chance than most of being together forever. I do recognise however that there is a 50% divorce rate, which is no doubt higher amongst Thai- Farang marriages.

Anyway, each to their own, and I respect your opinions. Thanks for the other points once again.

SP

SP,

My previous reply regarding your chances was based on the following

Where a couple claim that they have maintained their relationship during the 2 year period by merely visiting each other as often as they can, this will not be sufficient to satisfy these provision of the Rules.

I must admit that I was unaware that the rule went on to say

However where a couple have been living together in a committed relationship for the preceding 2 year period, barring short breaks, but have been dividing their time between countries (for example, by using the "visitor" category), this will be sufficient to meet the requirement.

My apologies for the confusion, and thanks to Scouse for pointing out my error.

For more details of the Civil Partnership Act, see Explanatory Notes to Civil Partnership Act 2004. However, I have to offer another apology. My knowledge of the provisions of this act was based on readings from other sites. It wasn't until I actually looked at the explanatory notes that I saw one very important proviso:

The purpose of the Civil Partnership Act is to enable same-sex couples to obtain legal recognition of their relationship by forming a civil partnership. They may do so by registering as civil partners of each other provided:

they are of the same sex;.......

So it's a non-starter for you, I'm afraid.

As for what would happen if you married and then divorced, sorry I don't know. I suggest that you ask a solicitor. However, I must admit to being surprised that your thoughts are going in this direction. Do you love her? do you trust her? If the answer to both is "Yes" then why are you worrying about divorce? If the answer to either is "No" then what the &lt;deleted&gt; are you doing? Dragging her over to the UK until you tire of her? That may seem harsh, but I cannot understand people who plan for their divorce before they're even married.

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[GU22]

However I think it is more irresponible the farangs that marry the first bar girl that they see (mine isn't a bar girl by the way), they can't speak the language to communicate (I am fluent in Thai), they don't know anything about the culture and subsequently the marriage breaks down.

I agree, many Falang have married a Thai girl only to find that once in the UK (or wherever) she disappears, having only used him for a visa. But it does happen the other way round as well, with the girl finding that her "loving husband" soon tires of her and sends her packing.

From what you have said about the length and strength of your relationship, I don't think either of the above is going to happen with you. Which is why I cannot understand why you do mot marry. However, as you say, "each to their own, and I respect your opinions"

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

[sheriff]

Hi im new to all this so you'll have to forgive me if i make any mistakes.....found this website through another forum and read that there is an ex immigration officer on here called "the scouser"

I wonder if you can give me any advice.....My wife and i have just been refused a settlement visa in august.We are trying again in dec.I didnt want to go through the appeal process as i have heard it can take an extremely long time.

My wife and i met in nov 2003 initially,while i was visiting a friend who works in Bangkok.On my return to england we kept in touch via text messeges,e-mails and phone calls.I returned in aug2004 after selling my house with the intention of travelling asia with my (at the time)girlfriend.We have been together since then,apart from one month in feb 2005,when i returned to england to sort some things out visit family etc.

It was while back in england i decided i wanted to ask my girlfriend to marry me.On my return she accepted after discussing it with her parents,and we got married in april.We had allways discussed what we wanted to do in the future(work,start family etc) and decided we wanted to return to england(im an hgv driver by profession,not many jobs in thailand for me).....so applied for the settlement visa.

As you have to apply at least three months before you want to travel we applied at the end of april...my visa(non imm) ran out end of july.also did the afformation and registered the marriege at the amphur at the same time...did everything in one go while we were there as we wernt living in Bangkok.

Anyway....the time came for my wifes interview and we believed we had everything required...bank statements,pay slips,letter from employers for her and me,letter about accomadation,copies and translations of all documants etc and loads of photos of myself and my wife together all around thailand,not to mention all the wedding photos.My wife was treated very badly by the lady conducting the interview,who gave only a cursery glance over all the documants and barely looked at the photos we gave.My wife was turned down on the basis we never had any proof of contact from 2003,but who keeps text messeges for two years???? And i never used to keep my phone bills that long either.If id looked into my crystal ball and seen the future of course i would have kept them(same for emails)The lady who interviewed my wife told her she didnt believe we were going to live together as man and wife in england as we'd done everything so quickly.

Anyway i have returned to england to work until dec and we are in constant comunication,letters,calls,texts etc ..all of wich i am keeping a record of!!! i am also trying to get copies of my bills from2003/004 to show all the times i phoned my wife.

All we want to do is live together as a proper family and do what everyone else can do,buy house have kids,work,etc.I know there are lots of false applications for visas but ours is genuine.

please can you give me any advice and .....hope...every bit of information i find on the net about the embassy in BKK is not positive and i am very worried

Hi SP,

Without knowing the full ins-and-outs of your relationship, it is difficult to state whether your g/f has a chance of qualifying or not. There follow the Home Office policy instructions on what constitutes "akin to marriage". Have a read, see for yourself, and judge whether your relationship matches the requirements. If you feel that they do, then make the application.

Scouse.

THE PARTIES HAVE BEEN LIVING TOGETHER IN A RELATIONSHIP AKIN TO MARRIAGE WHICH HAS SUBSISTED FOR TWO YEARS OR MORE

The intention of the Rules relating to unmarried partners is to allow genuine long-term relationships to continue. It is not an open door to couples who are in the early stages of a cohabiting relationship, but provides an opportunity for those couples who are already living together in a committed relationship akin to marriage to enter or remain in the United Kingdom on this basis alone. It will not benefit those couples who claim they are unable to live together because there is no provision in the Immigration Rules either of the UK or the partner's home country.

In order to assess whether a couple is in a genuine long-term relationship we would expect to see evidence of cohabitation for the preceding 2 year period. Short breaks apart of up to 6 months would be acceptable for good reasons, such as work commitments, or caring for a dependent relative. Evidence must show that the relationship continued throughout that period by visits, letters etc.

Where a couple claim that they have maintained their relationship during the 2 year period by merely visiting each other as often as they can, this will not be sufficient to satisfy these provision of the Rules. However where a couple have been living together in a committed relationship for the preceding 2 year period, barring short breaks, but have been dividing their time between countries (for example, by using the "visitor" category), this will be sufficient to meet the requirement.

Evidence of a committed relationship and proof of its length can take the form of:

- joint commitments, (such as joint bank accounts, investments, rent agreements, mortgage, death benefit etc);

- if there are children of the relationship, a record of their birth entry;

- correspondence which links them to the same address;

- any official records of their address (eg Doctors records, DSS record, national insurance record etc);

- letters from third parties may be of evidential value but should not of themselves form the sole basis of a claim;

- any other evidence that adequately demonstrates their commitment to each other.

It will not be necessary to provide all of the above, but caseworkers should be looking for sufficient conclusive evidence of the relationship.

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[the scouser]

I've replied to the e-mail you sent me.

Scouse.