U.S. Navy fires missiles at Libyan air defenses, Obama to speak shortly

[coma]

Vince Crawley, a spokesman for the US military's Africa Command, said that one crewman had been recovered and one was "in process of recovery".

Both crew members suffered minor injuries.

Crawley said the crash occurred "overnight." He declined to give the location of the incident and also would not say how the rescued crewman was picked up.

How didn't they pick them both if it was just outside Bengazi. The weapons sysytem officer has probabley hook up with the rebels and is conducting some Ops.

[bangkokrick]

Sounds like the were both rescued by the rebels. Wonder what caused the crash?

[chuckd]

CNN just reported they have picked up both downed airmen. They are uninjured.

CNN says the cause of the crash was mechanical failure but got no more specific than that.

[flying]

I am not comfortable at all with the US taking part in this. As a military man, I understand the doctrine of taking out Libya's ability to wage air warfare. But it is the policy itself in which I have a problem.

The US and allies are waging a war in Afghanistan, and while I would say that war is "just," and while the NATO forces are doing everything they can to limit civilian casualties, the fact of the matter is that by using air power, some civilians are going to be killed.

But because Gadaffi's forces were also using air power to attack, and because civilians were being killed, now it is "wrong." Well, of course any civilian death is wrong, and any military death regrettable. But to "punish" Gadaffi for doing the same thing as we are doing in Afghanistan sets a very bad precedent. To me, it destroys any argument that NATO forces have for using their superiority in the air in Afghanistan.

Don't get me wrong. I am not drinking Gadaffi's kool aid, nor do I think that air power should be eschewed in Afghanistan. But to use that excuse so as to put Gadaffi's air force out of commission is specious and can turn around and bite the NATO powers in the butt.

Very good points bonobo

[elcent]

Gadhafi Wanted West Germany to Allow Hits on Libyan Exiles

AP

Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi in August 1983.

In 1980, Moammar Gadhafi tried to pressure the West German government to extradite Libyan dissidents or allow them to be killed on German soil, according to German Foreign Ministry documents that have recently come to light. Chancellor Helmut Schmidt refused the demand.

For reasons of data protection and privacy, your IP address will only be stored if you are a registered user of Facebook and you are currently logged in to the service. For more detailed information, please click on the "i" symbol. In 1980, Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi demanded that the West German government extradite opponents of his regime living in Germany, or allow him to have them liquidated, according to German Foreign Ministry documents from the period.

Gadhafi threatened that if then-Chancellor Helmut Schmidt refused, he would take revenge by ordering "countermeasures" against German citizens living in Libya.

The written demand was handed to the then-German ambassador to Libya, Günter Held, in Tripoli on May 27, 1980, according to the documents, which have now been published by the Munich-based Institute of Contemporary History on behalf of the Foreign Ministry.

The West German government should decide, Gadhafi's note said, whether it wanted "to cooperate with traitors or with the Libyan people." It added that the request applied only to "a relatively small number of people."

Only Wanted to Kill 'Three or Four People'

The Libyan government had already had several opposition figures in Western Europe assassinated in operations that, according to Held, were "personally ordered" by Gadhafi. At the time, some 2,500 Germans were in Libya, some of whom had already been arrested, and the West German Foreign Ministry was concerned that Gadhafi would have them tortured.

Additionally, West Germany needed Libyan oil. Libya had also promised to stop helping the Red Army Faction group of left-wing terrorists who had been waging a campaign of bombing and assassinations in West Germany since the 1970s.

Schmidt rejected Gadhafi's demand, however. A few weeks later, Gadhafi abandoned his campaign and said he only wanted to kill "three or four people" who didn't live in West Germany.

The imprisoned German citizens were released with the help of a diplomatic ruse: West Germany promised to invite Gadhafi for an official visit to meet Schmidt. But the visit never took place

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,752491,00.html

[metisdead]

A post totally not related to this topic (off topic) has been removed. The subject of the removed post would be an entirely different topic all together.

[elcent]

An edited version of google translation. Hope everyone can understand it better now. Very good investigsative journalism http://www.spiegel.d...,752447,00.html

The volatile power of the rebels

They want to take power in Libya - the rebels' National Transitional Council in Benghazi is a volatile body: The head of the Council keeps hiding, joint meetings never happen(ed) and many names are secret. In the interview, the Secretary-General explains how his people want to organize the country's future.

The new government of the rebels, the National Transitional Council, consists of 31 members of which only 13 are known. A meeting of all together never happened. Gaddafi's henchmen have set a bounty on the Chairman of the Council, Mustafa Abdul Jelil.

For days, journalists in Benghazi try to find someone who can tell what's going on, who should bring the city under control and who is responsible for the ground troops at the front. Nobody can be reached by phone, e-mails are not answered. The people in the court, which had some self appointed press spokesman recently, are gone.

But another two-story building right on the sea looks promising. Freshly painted yellow facade, large garden, six men with machine guns in the yard, the wrought iron gate is closed. No signs at the door. It was a consulate before, say neighbors. Is that the previously unknown seat of the Transitional National Government?

On the first floor: large leather-covered chairs, a large window overlooking the sea, a new flag of Libya. A golden pen and a silver jet fighter on the desk. Coffee is served in small golden porcelain cups. Messengers come in with papers that need to be signed. In front of the desk sits Ahmed al-Senussi in a pinstripe suit.

Behind the desk sits a very busy man, especially busy on the phone. It is Abdul Karim Basama. For eight years he was in prison, five years in solitary confinement. A year ago he was released, he says. He was accused of conspiracy against the government. Now he is secretary general of the National Transitional Council and the first self-appointed official, who is seen actually working in the city.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Mr. Basama where are we here?

Basama: This building is the headquarters of the National Transitional Council. From here we'll build our new government. From scratch. 42 years of dictatorship and the revolution have left a no functioning administration. We have to take care of everything, electricity, water, banks, security. We try our best. As Secretary General, I coordinate the cooperation of the Council. But as Gaddafi's troops have withdrawn they have destroyed a power station and water pipes, so I have to take care of that too.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: We have been trying for three days, to reach anyone in the Council of the City. Where is everybody?

Basama: I'm here. Abdul Hakim Ghoga, our spokesman, and Ahmed al-Senussi are also here. Senussi is a member of the Council, he was responsible for political prisoners, but is now a kind of interior minister. Many of the Council are in the Green Mountains ( mountains east of Benghazi, ed) . and Mustafa Abdul Jelil, the head of the Council is currently in Tobruk.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why are many members of the Transitional Council in the Green Mountains, is it a safe place?

Basama: We could call it like this.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is the situation in the city dangerous?

Basama: No, the situation is safe. Two days ago there was the invasion of Gadhafi troops. They have reached the suburbs. But our resistance and the very precise air strikes of the French stopped them. They(French) have contacted us before, so there were no civilian casualties. They have done a perfect job, we are very grateful to them. Nearly 59 tanks and 57 armored vehicles were destroyed. It would otherwise have been a massacre. I hope that Americans now engage in Misurata. The civilian population are getting shelled with artillery and heavy shootings. The people there ask for help. The Americans have to intervene with air strikes there. This is the only method to deal with this crazy person.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Who is on your side in contact with the French, British or U.S. military leadership?

Basama: This is General Abd al-Fattah Yunis , Chief of Staff ( Chief of Staff, Ed ). He is appointed by the National Transitional Council to, but it is not a member of the Council.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: There were rumors that Abd al-Fattah Younes, for many years the right hand of Gaddafi and who has changed side and then changes side again and was reactivated by Gaddafi, is that right?

Basama: No.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Wasn't Omar Hariri recently the leader of the army?

Basama: Omar Hariri is a member of the Transitional Council. He is a kind of defense minister and under al-Fattah Younes Abd. We don't use the title defense minister. Also, Ahmed al-Senussi here next to me is a member of the Council, he is responsible for security, like as an interior minister. But there is no title, the Council will appoint people to take care of something. Ali al-Issawi for example is in chaerge of Foreign Affairs.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: On the road between Benghazi and Adschdabija on Monday was also Khalifa Belkasim Haftar. The old former General of Qaddafi who returned from the U.S., is a very popular figure in the army. Is he responsible for the ground troops? Should he win the war with Tripoli?

Basama: Yes.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: And how do you communicate with each other when exposed to a bounty on you?

Basama: We talk a lot on the phone and we met last week. A meeting was canceled yesterday, due to the tense security situation. And on Tuesday there was a meeting in Tobruk.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Have all the members met in Tobruk?

Basama: No, just a few.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Who?

Basama: I think Fatih Elbaaja in Tobruk and of course the chairman, Mustafa Abdul Jelil and our UN ambassador.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Who is all Member of the Council?

Basama: That I cannot tell you.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Why not?

Basama: For security reasons.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Are there any police in the city?

Basama: No, only traffic policemen.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What does the old, regular police? They have officially joined the revolution. Don't they want to work again?

Basama: Yes, they want to work again. They ask after a few guarantees.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What kind of guarantees?

Basama: security guarantees. They are afraid of the rebels. If the military situation is improving, we can do that. The priority is on the front. I think the security in the city is quite good.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Many in the city don't see it like that. There are shootings every night. Sunday night until early Monday morning were two groups fighting in front of the Al-Noran Hotel where many journalists lived before.

Basama: Yes, there are such problems. The people celebrate. There are salutes.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: No, they were shooting at each other. Between the Al-Wahad Hotel and the Al-Noran hotel a group of journalists had to run for cover because they were under fire toon. At the same time fightings between a group of rebels and supporters Gaddafi also happened. A flak was there, we heard bombs that went off.

Basama: These are people of the old Gaddafi regime. If the refuse to be captured then there are fights like this.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: The ligand Thauria, the old Gaddafi's revolutionary committees?

Basama: Yes, the ligand Thauria.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: What can you say about that?

Basama: Some of the ligands Thauria under Gaddafi have tortured or killed. Some of them, once they get exposed, young revolutionaries try to catch them. We try to control that as soon as possible and to send them to court.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Where are they being held?

Basama: Different places, safe places. There are accidents when they are discovered. You know how it is when it comes to a prawl here. It is difficult to control people.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: They will be killed?

Basama: Yes.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: How many ligands are Thauria?

Basama: There is no exact number

SPIEGEL ONLINE: And about? Tens or thousands?

Basama: Less than one hundred.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Is it true that a list was published with all killed ligands Thauria, a kill list with 7200 people?

Basama: There are many lists, you know.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Are these lists for the public or private?

Basama: No, frankly, this has little to do with the Transitional Council. These young people from the Revolution make their own decisions. We can only try to coordinate. Some lawyers in the court try that nobody will be captured without legal procedure. But in case of war it is difficult to control.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Can one talk to these prisoners?

Silence.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: So one cannot talk to them.

Basama: There is a possibility, but ... Excuse me, I'll be back in ten minutes.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Okay.

He never came back.

Interview conducted by Jonathan Stockhammer

Edited March 22, 2011 by elcent

[bangkokeddy]

Basama: These are people of the old Gaddafi regime. If the refuse to be captured then there are fights like this.

...

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Where are they being held?

Basama: Different places, safe places. There are accidents when they are discovered. You know how it is when it comes to a prawl here. It is difficult to control people.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: They will be killed?

Basama: Yes.

Gun fights if Gadaffi loyals refuse to get captured, captured to get killed.

The rebels. Now the UN is helping them.

Edited March 22, 2011 by bangkokeddy