The Noose May Be Tightening

[Indo-Siam]

Well, about four months back, there was lots of speculating about what was to come, in relation to 30 day entry permits and such. Lots of background grumbling, but in my practice, I did not see any real changes.

Well, for the last three to four weeks, I've been getting anecdotal reports from clients about increasing difficulties with all the "little things". This past week, the chatter level increased subtantially among my associates andc lients.

What is strange is that new rules are not being applied consistently - some are having trouble, others aren't. Areas affected:

Thai Driver's licenses - people who used to slide through without both a work permit and non-immigrant entry permit are now being denied.

One-year entry permit renewals - several folks have been hit up with some fairly hefty photo requirements - of homes, and of offices (and employees)

Bank acounts - One person (with Class O entry permit) was denied a passbook savings account, several clients received mail notices about tightened entry permit rules for new accounts, effective in January.

Thai-US Amity Treaty - We for the first time had an application challenged - it was a mildly unusual company profile, but still should have slid through without comment.

BOI Promotion - I heard two accounts of companies being required to up capitalziation levels to 10 million baht, or face disapproval.

Again, for each report above, I've had others (and myself) go through some of the same processes without any new restrictions.

But - I've been at this awhile - and I think I'm seeing an ongoing tightening of the screws - not sudden and dramatic, but subtle and creeping.

I suspect that 1st Quarter CY 2004 may be a watershed quarter for quite a few people (that is, if the early bar closing rumours don't scare them all away first) .

Indo-Siam

[lopburi3]

I would guess that it is part and parcel of the overall change taking place. Several weeks ago had taxi driver pulled over for extending the yellow light (was red when he crossed) and he was given 400 baht police summons (no payment allowed). Not a big thing in itself; but the signals are being sent.

[plachon]

Thanks for those honest insights Indo-Siam, about creeping changes in bar heights (and I'm not talking about dwarfs being denied drinks...... .) personally speaking, I've seen these changes occuring subtly, and not so subtly, for farangs and Thais alike over the past year plus. Call it Toxinocracy, modernisation, or good ol' tightening down the screws, but please don't call it "progress".

[davidm]

The real crux of the problem is the country is being run by a man with a plan, and he doesn't particularly like westerners. As far as I can make out, the long term plan is to replace westerners - investors and non-celebrity tourists - with Chinese. If I mentioned in public some parts of what I believe is his plan, I would e in very serious trouble. That said, I believe the King of Thailand covered some of those points in his most recent birthday speech.

Very few influential Chinese Thais like westerners, but they weren't prepared to go as far as the current leader. They probably won't undo the damage if he leaves before the programme is completed.

Next year will probably be the beginning of the end as far as the relaxed attitude towards long term western "residents" is concerned.

[Khun ?]

New visa laws for 2004 should some it up. Very reasonable at that. Why should Thailand take people from western countries that would not be able to retire in their

own country on what they have. The rates were probably set by asking the consultes what would the amount be at very minimum or moderate to low standards in each country. Thailand is beyond the years of what would it take for a local citizen to live. India and several others countries will be happy with the likes.

Reasonable planning and most should be fine or whinning back home why they

did not safe for the rainy day. Tourist will be just that in the future or will be privilege card holders. Still many countries close by that will accept most fall throughs. If cheap living is a must why not Loas or Cambodia they need the funds.

You would still only be a stones throw away for your tourist days.

[morphic]

Khun?

If you can't write your racist, xenophobic sewage in a manner that atleast approximates English then you just shouldn't bother posting at all.

[bluebear]

You all right Jack ?

"Why should Thailand take people from western countries that would not be able to retire in their own country on what they have. "

Umm, maybe because on what would merely be an existence life in their home country - US, UK, Sweden etc - they can have a pretty good life here ( and spend money in the local economies) because the cost of living is lower. They are retiring here, not in their own countries so it doesnt matter what the standards are back there.

" Reasonable planning and most should be fine or whinning back home why they did not safe for the rainy day. "

Do you think that maybe some of those did actually believe their respective governments ie in the UK about National Insurance being enough to support them or if they saved in the stock market, they believed the professionals who said they could be trusted and the savings would be going up.

I just hope you never fall on hard times.

[Pink Mist]

The sky is falling the sky is falling.

dont waste your energy worrying about what might be.

[Guest IT Manager]

Whilst I have watched changes over the past 8 years, the people in the villages are the ones who will suffer. The democratic dictatorship is here and is protected by green clad chaps doing as they are told.

For you Khun? since you aren't aware, the changes to rules regarding pensions and the like are able and frequently designed to screw people in the West. Like Sweden, where I think 15% of the population pay the bills for all. It becomes difficult to manage "what you saved" for "the rainy day" when without warning, your government opens the gates of the local dam. I have no idea where you are from, but I guess I think Asia and suspect Thailand, but that's not a slur, rather a statement of fact.

Most of your posts appear to put the party line for TYT, which is good in some respects, pretty scary in others, because if you were as considerate (think about things, not thoughtful of people, which you may or may not be), you would look further than 2 moves and instead of learning chess, you would learn to play "go". Twenty or more moves ahead.

The bitter pill will be dodged by those who are cleared out on visa issues, or tax issues etc, and swallowed by the Thai Public, before they realise what they did to themselves for 300 baht. You know what I mean?

I think it's early days to be saying the sky is falling, but not to early to be investigating Burma, Cambodia or Laos as "big rain" destinations. At the end of the day, the Chinese move in and everyone loses I think, same as the Indians in Fiji. The come-uppance comes, but at what horrendous price to our families and the lives we have established here, and don't think for a moment, that Foreigners living abroad, don't read newspapers about Thailand. They do.

Watch the "reviews of destination" when people are asked to cough up 1,000,000 baht just to visit, as opposed to come here to live. That is head in the sand nonsense and you would be well advised, whatever your situation, to rethink your views, and consider the end game, instead of the opening gambit.

[Jeepz]

Khun

You say if someone can't afford to retire in their own country they shouldn't retire in Thailand. Let's take an average Joe getting ready to retire from where I work. He's going to get 26K US dollars a year for retirement. Not starving money, for sure. But you can't buy a house on that here in the USA. You can't buy a nice new car on it either. Not after you pay taxes, food, rent, health insurance.

So 80,000 baht a month (roughly) really doesn't cut it according to you. Because if you tried to retire in the USA on that, you would find out you aren't going to get much. If you had that money coming in, where would you choose to live, Khun?

But there is the retirement deposit that seems to be a looming issue.

And when/if a retirement visa requires a 1.5 million baht deposit in Thai bank, I will probably scratch Thailand off my list of places to live long term. I'm sorry, but Thai banks just don't have a reputation I am willing to trust with that amount.

So it goes.

Jeepz

[Butterfly]

Khun?

If you can't write your racist, xenophobic sewage in a manner that atleast approximates English then you just shouldn't bother posting at all.

I am starting to think that Khun has evolved into a "hate" troll.

In one thread, he is a pro-American "muslim" hater and then in another thread he becomes an anti-westerner

I am starting to think he can't make up his mind for pissing people off

[maerim]

With all due respect to all the people who have replied to this.

I would like to pose the question, what are we doing here, well us Farangs anyway?

I know what I am doing here,one of the things I don't do here is sponge of the state as asylum seekers (I have counted the asylum seekers here from Eastern Europe, twice and still come up with zero) as for one thing I can't and another I don't want to,my money comes from my home country, you now have one guess as to where it's spent?

I really don't see the problem here unless it's racism,cast your mind back a few years to Uganda and Kenya where they booted out all the Muslims one of the reasons they gave was they controled too much of the economy ( same as the reasons given in Fiji as to to Indian population) and you know where they came to eventually, yup the U.K..

Whenever there is a problem or one not too far over the horizon find someone to blame for any or all problems.

preferably a group that is easily recognaisable and I stick out like a sore thumb here

Sitting comfortably? lets start, witches,they burn a treat,blacks,Jews, Muslims and as my fingers are begining to ache fill in the rest yourself.

I can if I want relocate my family here to the U.K. but I like them too much to do this.

I really think that as Thailand realises a great deal of it's foriegn currencies earning from people from the west that they should consider that throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a good idea.

Is this posting a good idea when I want my visa renewed?

[Membrane]

I am starting to think that Khun has evolved into a "hate" troll.

Membrane this is the only time you will be warned by me on this thread. This started off and has continued in an adult way, without your garbage.

Don't change it. Something positive, fine, something negative but reasonably argued, also no problem. More of your trash out you go with the bathwater, and also the same to Butterfly. You are both warned.

Edited December 23, 2003 by IT Manager

[Butterfly]

See edited post by Membrane. Same applies to you.

Edited December 23, 2003 by IT Manager

[Sunbelt Asia]

Thai-US Amity Treaty - We for the first time had an application challenged - it was a mildly unusual company profile, but still should have slid through without comment.

Steve, what type of profile? What was the hang-up?

[Indo-Siam]

Greg -

Company was set up by a US guy working in Khandahar, Afghanistan - with objective being to accept the task of organzing and running an opium eradication program, modelled after a successful Thai program called the Royal Doi Tung project. Money would come from NGO's and national governments seeking to support elimination of poppy growing in Afghanistan.

Company would hire Thai Doi Tung veterans (academicians, and project leaders) to transfer know-how to Afghans - basically substitution of livelihoods (not just crops), based on successful Thai model. Along the way, if any physical items were needed (seeing as how Afghanistan produces next to nothing these days), company would act as a trading company to source goods from Thailand.

Nonthaburi turned it down - not beneficial to Thailand, would carry out most business outside Thailand. Never heard of Doi Tung. Oh - and "poor Afghans" probably won't buy much from a Thai consulting/trading firm. Meanwhile, the business owner is managing US $8 million in grant money in Afghanistan already - for USAID. His own Thai partner/director handled visit to Nonthaburi badly (weakly).

US Embassy is doing something - they report.

Interestingly, Nonthaburi seems to understand that they cannot disapprove a Treaty request endorsed by the US Embassy -- they are asking that we withdraw the request.

I'll give it a while longer - my client does not have good e-mail conectivity in Khandahar!!!!!!!

Meanwhile, I've got my staff working to try to point out to Nonthaburu that:

1) It is a good thing to dry up the supply of heroin from Afghanistan to Thailand (and also to the US). Also OK to dry up drug income to bad guys in Afghanistan.

See: Doi Tung Project

2) The Doi Tung project was the project that the Princess Mother was personally working on at the time she died.

3) There are really good chances that lots of money will be available from non-Afghan sources to help Afghanistan eliminate heroin production, and having that money flow to Thai suppliers of trade goods, and Thai Doi Tung consultants is a good thing.

4) The request was endorsed by the representatives of the President of the US. That means that the King (OK, maybe the PM - but the King signed the 1966 Treaty) can say no.

We'll see what happens. Pretty strange. Maybe some other agenda ongoing, of which I am not aware (maybe some tit-for-tat involving shrimp anti-dumping lawsuit, or Jasmati rice lawsuit, or ?????)

[Thaiquila]

Still many countries close by that will accept most fall throughs. If cheap living is a must why not Loas or Cambodia they need the funds.

You would still only be a stones throw away for your tourist days.

From what I understand, Laos and Cambodia are not reasonable alternatives for people of retirement age who need easy access to good quality health care.

Thailand does have special qualities that make it very attractive to retirees.

I don't know about Myanmar, but do they currently have a legal way to stay long term as a retiree? Also, I would doubt they have quality health care.

I agree that making long term stays prohibitive is throwing the baby out with the bath water. A retiree who qualifies based on a 800K deposit is probably spending between 500,000 to 1 million baht a year IN THAILAND. If that requirement is doubled and Thailand loses those residents who don't wish or cannot afford to tie up double that in a Thai bank, it is a loss to the Thai economy. Not an earth shaking loss, perhaps, but as they say, why kiss a gift horse in the mouth?

Anyway, for those looking for affordable retirement alternatives to Thailand, you might want to look outside of Southeast Asia.

Most of these affordable countries have reasonable ways to stay long term:

Panama (excellent infrastructure)

Nicaragua

Mexico (requires an actual pension, not savings based)

Malta

Peru (visa runs needed)

Equador

Dominican Republic

Belize

However, I should point out, it is quite difficult to get Thai food in any of these places! I met an Indian in the Dominican Republic who had been there so long he considered Mexican food an acceptable replacement for Indian food. Guess it shows humans to adapt to most anything.

[Khun ?]

It seems I hit some nerves here. Most people who retire back home have been paying for a house for years and whatever else needed for when they get older so they could relax and live a bit of retirement style life. To think because you was not smart enough to know to save some money for retirement specially if you plan on living in a foreign country is not anyones fault but your own. It is quality not quanity Thailand is looking for. Are you guys saying a moron who retires and lives

on month to month pay that does not get above the poverty level is the person

who Thailand should welcome with open arms. Yes just the type of people who are going to hang out at the farang pub every day and live in a peasant style

room is just the people they are looking for. When the U.S. $ hits 30 to one again

lets see how many people are crying over their brew because they did not use a half a brain and save for retirement. Yes these are the true examples Thailand needs to be around their young Isan populace. Yes these are the people that a

retiree that worked and saved for years is going to choose to live around. I see

some of you have a real talent and not a clue about common sense. Just the type of people that is going to attract quality foreigners to Thailand.

Next you will be telling me Thailand is getting complaints about the brain drain they are causing on the west.

[Thaiquila]

Khun, hey well, how very inflammatory.

Not every one wants to make the sacrifices required to be, has had the good fortune to become, or needs to be rich, whether or not they stay in their home countries.

And many people get to a certain age, or have to quit work for countless reasons, and they are not rich enough to retire in the South of France, but they have way more than enough for the South of Pattaya.

Many people are happy to have enough to cover their expenses to be comfortable and also have a reasonable reserve.

Based on my observations, 800K baht a year is enough for most single people to support themselves in a reasonable style in most parts of Thailand, save for expensive parts of Bangkok and Phuket, etc. If a foreign national gets into trouble, it certainly won't be the Thai government bailing them out, so such people are most likely to be sent back to their home countries (many western embassies provide emergency loans for this purpose). In most cases, even washed out people will be able to raise the price of the air ticket back to their home country.

Of course, the government of Thailand can choose to set the requirement higher if they wish; higher than is really necessary. However, I don't really see the point of stopping some thousands of idle, solvent foreigners from finding a pleasant retirement destination in the sun. Who do they hurt exactly? It seems a shame.

However, if that is the way it is going, there are other countries that are more than glad welcome such people, and gain some easy hard currency in the bargain. And, you know, 30 baht to a dollar is not really so bad!

[Khun ?]

I agree 800,000 baht is what the government is saying also. Someone who only has 30,000 a month will be name calling and they hate westerners. I do not see it that way, I see it as a way to say why did you not achieve back home what the common retiree did after all we are talking several years these people will be in thailand most likely. Let the western countries deal with their own underachievers.

They do not care if you can be happy with a village income or lifestyle. They set the limits at what a common citizen would need or get back in their own country.

If the person did not get that, why ,must be something wrong or a few screws loose. Deal with your own problems they are not going to run around Thailand like loose cannons and cause those that did do what it takes problems our to be frowned upon. There has to be limits and the best way for quality is what is average for them in their own country. Is this not fair, I believe it is.

This hog wash that I think I make the rules what is right and what I can live on is bullsh**, it is Thailand who sets the rules. Pukes who want to cry discrimination

can go back and try to get it right again in their own countries and if they did not choose to be a looser back home then they would not have the problem of having the basic requirements for long stay in Thailand. Blaming it on other than themselves prove what a looser they was. Nothing more nothing less.

[HonoluluJimmy]

Rainy Day Sanook Baht....<deleted>, I would think that being at the min level would create a HUGE lack of fun tickets.

Whats with the upon entry visa for sanookers stampo. That is the issue most are interested in! ....That would be a good question!

BTW, I'll give my 2 satang not too long from now on an important visa issue.

A little preview info is that if you want a retirement visa get it done at an office overseas before you go...And they can do the renewal. Remember many offices are rated on activity levels so income events are a good thing. Don't worry about the bank thingo....you gotta have the sacks of gold but it can be worked ( ala Thai style). As to direct questions, don't even think about it. No matter what stamps you have you are in the non thai passport line.....Except official and diplo passports but <deleted> you still need to get you bags.

[monitorlizard]

Most of these affordable countries have reasonable ways to stay long term:

Panama (excellent infrastructure)

Nicaragua

Mexico (requires an actual pension, not savings based)

Malta

Peru (visa runs needed)

Equador

Dominican Republic

Belize

There are a few countries on this list that in my opinion are a bit dangerous. I would point out that Peru and Equador are very dangerous places to be right now. In fact I knew a lot of Brits that lived there for years running a business got out of the country. Things may have changed a lot but in Latin America you will see a lot of gun carrying in public. Personally, it made me feel uncomfortable.

I doubt Nicaragua is set up to handle retirees. My best bet would be Mexico or Costa Rica. Don't know about Panama or Belize. But I always felt Latin America was much more expensive to live than Southeast Asia. Of course this depends if you eat rice and beans everyday and avoid all and any western standards.

[Thaiquila]

To Khun, the fact of the matter is that different countries are richer and poorer relative to each other. This shifts over time, of course. At present the US is growing poorer and Thailand is growing richer, but it cannot be denied that the US is a much richer nation, and is likely to be so for a few years at least . . .

Some relatively poorer nations have recognized that long term residents can be a beneficial thing. And most have income requirements, and these are usually, and understandably based on the perceived income needs for a person to live in the country of destination, not the country of origin. An excellent example is Mexico, which has welcomed tens of thousands of "gringos" for generations. The government there officially recognizes that a typical pensioner may be on dog food eating income level in New York, but have enough money for a nice house with servants in many parts of Mexico. They see this as a win win situation for the retirees, and for their nation. So I think the notion that income requirements should be set based on requirements in a persons home country are just not realistic, beneficial, or necessary.

To Monitorlizard:

Yes, I agree, some of those countries can be dodgy indeed! Which is another reason I personally prefer Thailand.

It just wanted to put out some ideas; I am curious as to other country ideas if people have them (probably with a new post). The idea I want to put accross is that there are lots of folks from Western countries looking for to improve their living standard by moving abroad, and there are lots of options outside Thailand and SE Asia. And it is not necessary to exist on rice and beans only in Latin America.

There is a lot of buzz that Nicaragua is improving rapidly and welcoming expats. Most retirees prefer the provincial town of Grenada (on a lake) or the beach areas. The financial requirements for a long termer are quite low. The costs are currently a bargain, partly because of bad publicity of wars from long ago.

Panama has even more buzz, and has a great infrastructure, an easy to navigate long term retiree program (also requirements quite low), and if you like hot and humid weather, you will love it. Panama will not allow HIV pos individuals on this program. Panama is affordable, probably more pricey than most parts of Mexico though.

Costa Rica is now very expensive! They have phased out their retiree visa program, though there are ways to stay (visa runs?). The buzz is bad.

Mexico is very good, with great variety. The retiree program requires a pension (amount always varies, currently USD 1200/month). Mexico is affordable outside the famous beach resorts.

Anyway, I think the cliched advice that if you move you should NOT move only because a place is cheap is quite sound. I, like many, am most attracted to Thailand for a complex variety of reasons, and it certainly isn't the cheapest place.

[maerim]

The United Kingdom is certainly the place to be these days just look at the asylum seekers flocking in their thousands to live there from Eastern Europe, the U.K. is their number one choice.

The Albanians are especially welcome as their skills in the smuggling of people, vendettas and senseless killings are an asset to any country also their input into hi tech machine design is more than welcome.

I can't really see the attraction of Thailand because if was any good here surely these people would turn left instead of right when fleeing their home country and head here instead?

I have been a while now and still can't find the social security office, any ideas as to the location of this charity outlet?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

The walkers will show you how to live on zilch.....lowlives

[Guest IT Manager]

IMHO the point made by Khun is at least inflammatory, and I doubt, as he shuffles into work in his fatigues in Arizona daily, that he is looking in the short term at retirement.

Again, IMHO, Thailand runs nicely on the back of a lot of small people, with small money who keep things going at a local level.

They aren't world-changers, don't invade other peoples spaces, (either nationally or rhetorically), and at the end of the day this fact will be brought home suddenly and successfully to the government of the day in LoS.

As far as retirement and long-stay medical support is concerned, Burma is marginally more expensive than LoS, simply because the black economy based on the necessity to survive after Dubya, unilaterally (again) said enough is enough, however when one considers its' location, about 1 hour on a flight from Rangoon, and with such facilities as are to be found in low rate hospitals like Rajavej, which offer excellent western style and based care at Thai prices, it seems like a good deal.

Burma will get it together and Laos and Burma will be the exit points for people who don't live their working lives in Army Camps, who may or may not be Asian, who decide it's a fun thing to gee others up by saying racially charged things they have been told to say by their "superiors" and in this case I do not use a word advisedly.

LoS will always be in its' current position of half educated masses who believe their executioner will be quick and therefore is jai dee makh.

[Khun ?]

Maerim

Try the 1.3 million immigants a year in the USA and many without any visa and they are not allowed to be asked if they are in country legally unless they commit a serious crime, no not traffic violations or driving without a license or fake ID this is all ok.

Thaiquila

Under the system you say is ok then the place would be over ran by Loations,Burmesse and Cambodians if the only requirement was the ability to feed yourself once you got to Thailand.

If you notice many countries have far less than what is required for a western country. WHY?

They took each country on a merit system of the average person of western countries and some other countries like India and so on, if they have this much

income per year as a pension should be of reasonable charcter.

They have enough people already that wish to live in Thailand but they wish to have decent quality and how else can you do this.

[Khun ?]

IMHO the point made by Khun is at least inflammatory, and I doubt, as he shuffles into work in his fatigues in Arizona daily, that he is looking in the short term at retirement.

Again, IMHO, Thailand runs nicely on the back of a lot of small people, with small money who keep things going at a local level.

They aren't world-changers, don't invade other peoples spaces, (either nationally or rhetorically), and at the end of the day this fact will be brought home suddenly and successfully to the government of the day in LoS.

As far as retirement and long-stay medical support is concerned, Burma is marginally more expensive than LoS, simply because the black economy based on the necessity to survive after Dubya, unilaterally (again) said enough is enough, however when one considers its' location, about 1 hour on a flight from Rangoon, and with such facilities as are to be found in low rate hospitals like Rajavej, which offer excellent western style and based care at Thai prices, it seems like a good deal.

Burma will get it together and Laos and Burma will be the exit points for people who don't live their working lives in Army Camps, who may or may not be Asian, who decide it's a fun thing to gee others up by saying racially charged things they have been told to say by their "superiors" and in this case I do not use a word advisedly.

LoS will always be in its' current position of half educated masses who believe their executioner will be quick and therefore is jai dee makh.

IT the proxiy is in Arizona even though I am thousands of miles away and have not had fatigues on in 20 years but good try. I am cilvilian and get no retirement other than what I save and old age at 66.4 for full pension. No medical either unless I pay $600 a month as I work for myself.

[camel_jockey]

just a thought regarding steve and gregs earlier posts,re there being a hidden agenda, with the recent crackdowns on drugdealers in LOS, maybe the gov. getting rid of the competion?

[chuckie]

Mexico, to me, is a very close equivilent to Thailand. My wife and I looked closely at both places, visited both many times (grew up near Mexico), but finally settled on Thailand. Why? The only real real difference for us was that it is less expensive to live on or near the beach (we are on Phuket) - that's very important to me.

Otherwise, costs are quite similar. Excellent medical care is available and inexpensive both places. Mexico is easier in terms of residence. Yes, they require a pension for retirement status, but many people (North Americans) can stay in Mexico for six months on a simple entry-type visa. Most go home to visit family and return.

Other comparisons:

Great food - both places

Crime - a little better in Thailand

Great Beaches and Sea - both similar

Housing and Cost of Living - similar, but Thailand a little better

Property Ownership - much better in Mexico (though a few deed problems such as here - though much less of a problem)

Brits - for many years have headed down to Spain and Portugal - both countries benefited greatly from those people.

Many North Americans retire in Mexico. The areas around the retirement havens are more prosperous than most of the country - the influx of money provides employment and opportunity for the local people.

When Thailand becomes too difficult - Mexico is a wonderful alternative.

Sadly, it is the Thais who work in related businesses that will suffer from the short-term vision of the government.

Retirement and Tourism are closely related - we come, we like, we return to retire - always bringing money with us. These industries are cleaner than smokestack industries, pollute less, tend to provide good upward mobility for the local population in the spinoff industries. Electronics, IT, and heavy industry are much more likely to require heavy investment in education for the local folks to move up - foreigners will typically inhabit the higher levels for longer.

So, who is the government really trying to help? And what is the best way to do it?

Those are really the issues. More consistency in the application of law is a good thing - as long as the goal posts aren't moved too often. Phuket for example has already seen one major business proposal withdrawn because it can't seem to get the land title/deed issues resolved - off they go on another witch hunt to see which deeds they deem illegal . . .