Thailand Rejects Foreign Election Monitors

[MILT]

I agree with the deputy PM's assessment as well. Western NGOs and their members are often as crooked as they come and fronts for intelligence agencies.

I agree too. Having been in the US during the 2000 elections I was shocked to put it mildly when Gore was announced on TV news as the winner only to be overturned later when they found some more Bush votes to count in Florida which just happened to have GW's brother as governor. If the US is supposed to set the standard for free and fair elections why would any country want to let people in who potentially could have bee involved in the US 2000 elections?

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Posted Today, 19:00

MILT, on 2011-03-25 18:50:07, said:

I like to see any of the westerners on this forum agree to outside monitoring of the elections in their respective countries? Almost all if not all Governments have a certain amount of corruption. I have to agree with Suthep on this one and say I don't trust westerners either

Not so fast ...

http://www.independe...ime-556076.html

International monitors to observe US election for first time

Quote

For the first time, experts from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) will observe the presidential election, after a formal invitation from the State Department.

This post has been edited by Jingthing: Today, 19:05

Life is the farce which everyone has to perform.

Arthur Rimbaud

Truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it.

Mark Twain

[BuckarooBanzai]

Here is a pretty accurate translation of the context of Suthep's remarks from the newspaper Thai Daily News http://www.thairath.co.th/content/pol/1583

Regarding whetherthe Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship (DAAD) leaders wanting to inviteinternational organizations to observe the elections in Thailand, would behelpful in investigating have otherbenefits, Mr Suthep said, "The (redshirt) leaders have strange (ideas). They don't respect the sovereignty of their own (country). There are many Thai organizations. (Thai) media (representatives), universityprofessors or students or whatever. Whyshould anyone esteem westerners to thatextent? I don't like this sort ofthing. The (red shirts) like to getoutsiders involved in our internal affairs. I don't think they should. Itisn't appropriate.

When asked if theoversight of Thai elections was of a sufficiently high standard to ensure thateverything was done in a fair manner, Mr. Suthep said, "I don't esteemwesterners as being better than Thai people. Don't bring westerners here to control Thai people. I think our (own) Election Commission issufficient to the task. If you want tosupplement the oversight of the Election Commission or examine the ElectionCommission itself, then make use of the views of Thai people. The media, the academic sector, the privatesector, the business sector, and students (all) can contribute. (We should) do away with the notion that one ought to run and submit (oneself) to westerners for (the solution to all one's problems). [end translation]

I think it's pretty clear that he was trying to say that he didn't want outside interference and that Thailand was perfectly capable of solving its own political problems. Imagine what American politicians might say at the prospect of giving an international body oversight of American elections! The quote that "I don't respect farangs." is not reflective of the complete quote and does not convey his meaning well.

Thank you for that.

Problem is, now there are 200 posts or so that all need to rewritten or just plain retracted...

What time was the translation made and how much can one depend on it's accuracy? The Farang Bully? How much money exchanged hands? Some would say

Did you read the article linked?

Do you dispute the posted translation based on what is written in the Thai report?

Do you accept that what Suthep said was in Thai?

Do you accept that the OP itself is a translation that you "depend on it's accuracy" of what he said in Thai?

Some would say, "Next?"

.

What are you trying to say? Did he speak Thai? Yes! Was the OP a translation? Yes! Some would say what the "H" are you talking about? Next!

[sausageandmash]

I always knew that Suthep was a nasty piece of work. Anyone agreeing with him is asking to be tarred with the same brush.

I agree with the deputy PM's assessment as well. Western NGOs and their members are often as crooked as they come and fronts for intelligence agencies.

[lungmi]

Don't forget the US Elections for Bush II , the manager of a second class football team manager to become President of US.

The vote bill machines were made by a company where Bush I hade assets,

International survisors for the votes in US would be acceped in US? Think about before before you post rubbish.

Yes they were after 2000 because yes 2000 was scandalous. Read the thread. Bush, baseball (it's like cricket), not football (it's like rugby).

Sorry, you correct me. O.K.

[mikenyork]

Paul Simon, "The Boxer" "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." It's absolutely clear from reading the entire quote that Suthep was making a point almost 180 degrees different from what the lifted partial quote that was carelessly translated by the Nation implied. His point was that Thais are just as good as "Farangs", absolutely not that Thais are better than Farangs.

Moreover, the entire thing was aimed, not in any way at all at Farangs, per se, but rather at the Red Shirts. Suthep has, in part, a job very similar to that of the Vice President of the US--to say the tough things that his boss cannot possibly say, but which, in the rough and tumble of Thai (or any other kind of) politics, need to be said. Corrupt elections notwithstanding, this is nothing more nor less than just democracy in action.

As to the word Farang, everyone has their own view on this and nothing I can say here will settle the matter. But if one takes the position that it is an ethnic epithet (which some of the posters here appear to), then one has to explain how a racial epithet can be used equally well to praise as to condemn. And there is no arguing that the word farang is used in everyday Thai discourse to do both with equal ease. As a though experiment, think of your favorite ethnic epithet in English (please note in passing that if you are a native speaker you have a wealth of choices, a veritable cornucopia of slurs, for almost any non-Northern European group you would like to use in your example). Then imagine seriously saying something like, "Those (insert favorite ethnic epithet here) sure have better (streets, public services, medical care) than we do." Does the resulting sentence sound a little nonsensical? That's because of the conflict between the epithet and the praise. But these kinds of sentences can be said in Thai using the word Farang and no one will even begin to think anything of it.

[sausageandmash]

Yes, but the point is, you don't say it in public. You keep words like that to yourself and exercise diplomacy.

I agree with the deputy PM's assessment as well. Western NGOs and their members are often as crooked as they come and fronts for intelligence agencies.

I agree too. Having been in the US during the 2000 elections I was shocked to put it mildly when Gore was announced on TV news as the winner only to be overturned later when they found some more Bush votes to count in Florida which just happened to have GW's brother as governor. If the US is supposed to set the standard for free and fair elections why would any country want to let people in who potentially could have bee involved in the US 2000 elections?

• Meme
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Posted Today, 19:00

MILT, on 2011-03-25 18:50:07, said:

I like to see any of the westerners on this forum agree to outside monitoring of the elections in their respective countries? Almost all if not all Governments have a certain amount of corruption. I have to agree with Suthep on this one and say I don't trust westerners either

Not so fast ...

http://www.independe...ime-556076.html

International monitors to observe US election for first time

Quote

For the first time, experts from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE) will observe the presidential election, after a formal invitation from the State Department.

This post has been edited by Jingthing: Today, 19:05

Life is the farce which everyone has to perform.

Arthur Rimbaud

Truth is the most valuable thing we have. Let us economize it.

Mark Twain

[ShannonT]

There's a thing called mutual respect. I believe Suthep wants Thais (including himself) be respected when they visit other countries. Not respecting other cultures is bordering racism. He could have said that he doesn't want foreign election monitors, period. Yet, he went a step further to express his disrespect for foreigners. Awesome. How much do foreigners contribute to the Thai economy? Not only tourists, but also exports. 99.9999% of tourists are not from Thailand and 100% of exports go to foreigners. It's like spitting in their faces and telling them "now visit my hotel, leave your money here and then buy my rice".

But then again, we couldn't expect anything else from politicians that don't respect their own Thais in the first place. If the Democrat party ever gets banned, maybe they can found the "Thai Nazi Party". Fits nicely with the racism.

[kuffki]

Many of us(expats) posters seem to be bothered by the possibly(most likely ) dishonest elections. I really do not understand why?

Elections do not affect us(foreigners) in any way what so ever. We can not vote, our lives do not change. The only difference it may possibly make is another change in the visa regulations or more rules on house or business buying or running.

Saying that, those changes, if were ever even thought of would be be implemented anyway.

Perfect example, Thaksin changed the 30 days visa run, new government did not reverse it but rather tightened it.

Personally i am only bothered by the choice of language and words used by the country leader,which shows general attitude towards foreigners.

I am also bothered that someone in his position, supposedly with very very good education would use words such as "farang"

None of the lawyers i have ever used, or doctors or accountants ever used word "farang" (in my presence at least) and here a Nations leader blabbing it in public., which once again only shows his level of education and intelligence

I am even more bothered that no one in the government including PM, did not at least criticize his words and did not force him to apologize, even though i deeply believe he should be sacked.

Yes we were not sent here by force, nor brought in chains. However we are here and there is absolutely no reason to disrespect us.

The constant discrimination by the sellers and general business running is already enough, why add more wood to the fire.

We do not receive any social security or welfare, we do not enjoy any of the discounts that Thai's get, so really we are no burden on the country or society.

Any university graduate(Thai National) with degree from any Western University instantly gets higher pay then grad from local university.

Furthermore most smaller business owned and run by Thai do not even pay any taxes , while any business owned by a foreigner no matter how small always pays taxes and every other duty that exists.

kuffki and others thinking in the same direction:

May I ask if you have any vested pecuniary interest in any biz in Thailand?

Or do you have any control over any biz within Thai territory?

If you do, you probably won't talk nor think the way you do that

the election has nothing to do with farang.

Many of us farang do have vested financial interests in several Thai biz.

And the investment is sizable in the low 9 digits at the moment.

You bet your life, since we run legit biz every which way, the honesty of Thai official and Thai govt do have direct impact and direct implication on every fiber of our biz and the bottom line in particular.

However for the majority of farang in Thailand, it is probably business as usual regardless of who is in power. On this score, you are irreputable.

For your info, the word farang is a collective terminology used to refer to a collection of several races and countries including people from U.S., Euro, Italy, Norway, Sweden et al.

The word farang is not derogatory nor is it racist in any shape or form. When a Thai couldn't distinguish a citizen from U.S., or Euro, it is pretty safe for the Thai to use the collective word farang to refer to that entity.

imho, it is just a collective word used to call people from several continents without really distinguishing who is who.

Hope you get my point and be able to from now on discount the word farang as you encounter it in the future. :jap:

I am sorry i answered you before seeing all the edits you have made.

I am not sure how good you are in Thai or how well you know language but word farang is rather an improper word and is used by less educated people.

Lets follow your logic for one minute so if one is unable to see the difference between foreigners, that would mean that we all look - a-like and that in itself is already racist. Do not you think?

I am not saying i am fluent in Thai, nowhere near, nor do i claim to be an expert of Thai language and culture, but i can tell you that "farang" is in fact an improper term to use, it is impolite, especially when it comes from the Government official at his level.

Farang actually means European not Western(as i have explained earlier) yes in some logical way, anyone white could be thrown into that category, but not by the government official.

khon tang prathet (คนต่างประเทศ)" ('people from other countries') is the proper word to use for someone in his position.

It can be a derogatory term and very often used as one, without you even knowing it.

Farang is basically a neutral word, but people who respect you (or who should respect you) will not use it - if you hear a work colleague, for example, refer to you as farang they probably mean it as an insult while a taxi driver or market vendor does not know any better

Edited March 25, 2011 by kuffki

[BuckarooBanzai]

Paul Simon, "The Boxer" "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." It's absolutely clear from reading the entire quote that Suthep was making a point almost 180 degrees different from what the lifted partial quote that was carelessly translated by the Nation implied. His point was that Thais are just as good as "Farangs", absolutely not that Thais are better than Farangs.

Moreover, the entire thing was aimed, not in any way at all at Farangs, per se, but rather at the Red Shirts. Suthep has, in part, a job very similar to that of the Vice President of the US--to say the tough things that his boss cannot possibly say, but which, in the rough and tumble of Thai (or any other kind of) politics, need to be said. Corrupt elections notwithstanding, this is nothing more nor less than just democracy in action.

As to the word Farang, everyone has their own view on this and nothing I can say here will settle the matter. But if one takes the position that it is an ethnic epithet (which some of the posters here appear to), then one has to explain how a racial epithet can be used equally well to praise as to condemn. And there is no arguing that the word farang is used in everyday Thai discourse to do both with equal ease. As a though experiment, think of your favorite ethnic epithet in English (please note in passing that if you are a native speaker you have a wealth of choices, a veritable cornucopia of slurs, for almost any non-Northern European group you would like to use in your example). Then imagine seriously saying something like, "Those (insert favorite ethnic epithet here) sure have better (streets, public services, medical care) than we do." Does the resulting sentence sound a little nonsensical? That's because of the conflict between the epithet and the praise. But these kinds of sentences can be said in Thai using the word Farang and no one will even begin to think anything of it.

A very good post but I think many of us are not concerned about the word farang. If you really live in Thailand you get used to the kids smiling and pointing and saying farang - there is no ill intent and really is not the crux of this controversy. The controversy lies in respect!

[farang000999]

The bottom line is that you DO NOT have the right to any sort of active opinion toward Thailand. You are ALL only visitors here most of whom are reeping many benefits in the form of hiding assets, evading taxes, escaping lives in the west, satisfying sexual fantasy tours, maximizing meager retirement accounts by living in this inexpensive land of "wine", women, and song. A minority are actually here for humanitarian or other non- selfcentered reasons. So spare me this "I have rights" bull. Most of you skating through to the end of your lives in a place that makes it all easy and pleasurable for you without having to pay any dues at all. And before you bring up visa fees or bank account mandates, they are in reality a cheap fee to pay in the end analysis. 2000 baht for 3 months = $60 USD. Wow! Sorry but that does not qualify. I am talking more about dues societally. But no one would want to really get involved even if they could. Only complain like armchair quarterbacks.

Aren't farang paying their dues by paying money for everything they receive here? Do you think Thailand would be better off if they all left?

What is it that you do in Thailand?

[ra1n85]

Reading some of my young Thai niece's schoolbooks it's no wonder they end up which such a twisted xenophobic view of reality. Taught (indoctrinated) from a very young age how special the Thai people are compared to everyone else.

Such a pity that such a beautiful country has such a high % of simpleminded fools populating it.

"I totally agree.. The Thai have no clue about the rest of the world or life as it once was.. That is called HISTORY..

From the days of Abraham to Jesus, to Mohammed, to all these new in your face religions and leaders.. I ask one college kid if she knew of Ghandi, WWI and II as well as the Beatles Jagger, and Frank Sinatra.. She never heard of anyone or any time.. I call most of them just simply put.. BRAINDEAD"

"Thailand surrendered to the Japanese P.D.Q in 1941. Oh, they're not farangs. Wait a bit. Who did the Japanese surrender to? Didn't the Japanese also think that they were so much more superior?

BTW How much foreign aid does Thailand soak up? Who invented and supplies all the technology that Thailand enjoys?

I hope that all the farang Ambassadors cross this moron off the invite list next time they hold a shindig - paid for by farang taxes. That should please him no end, not having to share a room with the representatives of people that he doesn't respect.."

"and tell Tescos, Toyota, Big C, Boots and ALL the Embassies - and destroy his collections (which he UNDOUBTEDLY has) of Shakespeare, Mozart, Michaelangelo and all the other 'rubbish' that farangs have produced over the centuries - and show us all the great cultural 'contributions' the Thai's have produced to the world's libraries, art gallery's and museums."

"How does this guy always get his facts wrong about this government... all the MPs were legally elected whatever party they represent as by the constitution which Thaksin altered to suit himself but backfired......... its the MPs that voted in Abhisit... its because of the coalition that we have so much political corruption, lets hope one party manages to gain a majority after this coming election and stop the political blackmail that seems to be rife in Thai politics... lets just hope that winning party does not contain Jutaporn.. ( can someone send him a court jesters outfit ) Myself.... I like Newin.. but I dinna have a vote..."

Who do you all think you are? You have no stake in anything the Thai government does. You have no stake in anything the Thai people do. The only true rights any of you have are those GRANTED to you by the government of the country you are VISITING. You have no right to walk/fly/bus/sail into this country, as a VISITOR, and iterate all this blathering, whining, xenophobic, (to use one of the words used with regard to the Thai people in the first post above), and bigoted BS. As for any dissatisfaction with anything indigenous to Thailand, if you don't like it then GO HOME! No one is twisting your arm to stay here and endure the wonderful food, awesome climate, laid-back lifestyle, and OVERALL great people here. You all come in with your f....d up superiority complexes with your screwed up view of things, most likely based on your ability to act "rich", thus perpetuating the stereotypes we falang already have with the Thai's. The reality is that our own societies back in the west are just as screwed up as anything Thai or anywhere else on the planet, each with their own distinct set of quirks and eccentricities. These forums were originally intended for falang to help each other out with being in this truly foreign land. It has degenerated into a group of constant complainers. Complain about Thai politics. Complain about the Thai logic. Complain about Thai education. Complain about Thai culture. If all this really bothers you, why are you still here? One can only hope that there are not many Thai's who read the crap on this site. You people do not represent my views at all and if you taint how Thai people see the farang even more by reading posts in here you are not doing any of us any favors. Jeez..... were all of you this whiny back where you came from? These people are who they are and who they choose to be. That's their right. You can have your opinions for sure. It's just that some of your opinions are better left UNSAID. Especially when it is totally derogatory. How they do things? NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. How they think? NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. How government functions? NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. How they choose to view us? Jerks like some of the posters on here do much to damage that view I'm sure. But in the end, NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. For the Americans reading in here: Do you like the Mexicans coming in and acting as though they own the joint? They refuse to speak English. They maintain their own little Mexican cliques. They eat their own types of food. They talk rubbish about Americans in Spanish and most of the time can get away with dissing us in our faces. How are the ugly farang who come here to Thailand any better?! They're not. Thailand owes you nothing. Thailand will be here with or without any of us. It is a fairly ancient land far older than lost western civilizations - 10 times as old as our grand old USA (or more - not shooting for accuracy right now). So grow up and get civilized. Be gracious GUESTS.

Guitarman you should be going for Thai Citizenship as you have the same defensive mindset. It makes me want to puke. We have every right to comment on the Thailand and the Thais as they have the right to comment when they visit the UK for eg......Seeing as i pay 37% tax for very limited benefit i think I am entitled to have an opnion. It's called FREEDOM of SPEECH! heard of it? Actually i posted before i read you pathetically defensive and predictable GO HOME comment. But you are a perfect example. Maybe the world doesnt think we need foreign monitors in UK for eg because you dont get politicians going around buying the vote for 200 baht and a packet of Mama....

Who benefits from free and fair elections? Foreigners? no the Thai people...duh! Do you not think we should have foreign observers in African countries where violence often present fair elections or is Thailand special because they have the luck of a good climate and the Portuguese brought them Chillis?

BTW the Thai Culture wont be around for much longer as they are busy trying to become western by chasing all the technology and lifestyle which admittedly makes those countries quite shallow.

Western elections are fair and honest? Are you serious? Corruption in western politics is legendary and yet no one would dare call for foreign monitors in any western election. Wouldn't make it to square one.

As for my "rant": one poster said he has rights as he works here and employs a handful of Thai nationals. Well, the Thai government certainly is grateful for your "contribution" to their financial well being I'm sure. Actually, you found a niche where you are able to maximize your profit margin by spending oodles less on labor and then importing on your own people at a greatly inflated price thus taking advantage of not one but two societies. Well done!

Others talk about how they are taxed and thus deserve rights as though they were immigrated citizens when in fact they will never denounce their homelands and seek citizenship with Thailand. A bit hypocritical isn't it?

The bottom line is that you DO NOT have the right to any sort of active opinion toward Thailand. You are ALL only visitors here most of whom are reeping many benefits in the form of hiding assets, evading taxes, escaping lives in the west, satisfying sexual fantasy tours, maximizing meager retirement accounts by living in this inexpensive land of "wine", women, and song. A minority are actually here for humanitarian or other non- selfcentered reasons. So spare me this "I have rights" bull. Most of you skating through to the end of your lives in a place that makes it all easy and pleasurable for you without having to pay any dues at all. And before you bring up visa fees or bank account mandates, they are in reality a cheap fee to pay in the end analysis. 2000 baht for 3 months = $60 USD. Wow! Sorry but that does not qualify. I am talking more about dues societally. But no one would want to really get involved even if they could. Only complain like armchair quarterbacks.

Comments about politics are fine. Comments about the people are fine. Comments about culture are fine. Making commentary on Thailand is wonderful. It is the racially charged bigoted comments that set me off. How dare you take an entire ethnic group and classify them as "stupid" or "BRAINLESS" or a hundred other derrogatory terms. I know many fine Thais who are neither stupid or brainless. In fact, they outshine most western acquaintences I have. I will go one further and say that there are more pretentious, self absorbed, brainless twits in the west then there are here. Am I stumping to be the next best friend of all Thais everywhere? Nope. I've seen the bad side of Thai people too. But I cannot abide MY people, westerners, being such dipwads. By the way, this is MY opinion that you seem to think we are all entitled to. Freedom of speech and all......................

You remind me of a gone-bamboo-Keith-Olbermann. Not all business operate on exports and cheap labor, but your bleeding heart mentality is far from understanding the intricacies of capitalism. I see you have a lot of hang-ups with western society. It's unfortunate.

As far as the picture of the westerners you seem to paint, I can only imagine the company you keep.

By the way, do you need to 'denounce your homeland' to become an immigrant citizen? I can see it now, all those Thai citizens in America - being asked to burn the Thai flag in front of officials in order to become 'immigrant citizens'.

[Jingthing]

Suthep has lost my vote!

And he ever becomes PM, I'm leaving my home country.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[MILT]

There's a thing called mutual respect. I believe Suthep wants Thais (including himself) be respected when they visit other countries. Not respecting other cultures is bordering racism. He could have said that he doesn't want foreign election monitors, period. Yet, he went a step further to express his disrespect for foreigners. Awesome. How much do foreigners contribute to the Thai economy? Not only tourists, but also exports. 99.9999% of tourists are not from Thailand and 100% of exports go to foreigners. It's like spitting in their faces and telling them "now visit my hotel, leave your money here and then buy my rice".

But then again, we couldn't expect anything else from politicians that don't respect their own Thais in the first place. If the Democrat party ever gets banned, maybe they can found the "Thai Nazi Party". Fits nicely with the racism.

How much have foreigners f*ked things up? Nazi party?

[BuckarooBanzai]

There's a thing called mutual respect. I believe Suthep wants Thais (including himself) be respected when they visit other countries. Not respecting other cultures is bordering racism. He could have said that he doesn't want foreign election monitors, period. Yet, he went a step further to express his disrespect for foreigners. Awesome. How much do foreigners contribute to the Thai economy? Not only tourists, but also exports. 99.9999% of tourists are not from Thailand and 100% of exports go to foreigners. It's like spitting in their faces and telling them "now visit my hotel, leave your money here and then buy my rice".

But then again, we couldn't expect anything else from politicians that don't respect their own Thais in the first place. If the Democrat party ever gets banned, maybe they can found the "Thai Nazi Party". Fits nicely with the racism.

How much have foreigners f*ked things up? Nazi party?

Your signature is out of the mind of milt perhaps it should read milt is out of his mind?

[kuffki]

I agree given his his stature he could have used a different word but I don't believe the word farang is not slang or impolite and that is us putting our political correct standard on another culture.

Farang is basically a neutral word, but people who respect you (or who should respect you) will not use it- if you hear a work colleague, for example, refer to you as farang they probably mean it as an insult while a taxi driver or market vendor does not know any better

If the statement came from a taxi driver or bar girl, we really can not expect anything better.

But from from someone in his position.

I do not accept the use of this term from anyone with any kind of education, but thats just me. Not being political or anything at all, simply respectful.

[DP25]

Paul Simon, "The Boxer" "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." It's absolutely clear from reading the entire quote that Suthep was making a point almost 180 degrees different from what the lifted partial quote that was carelessly translated by the Nation implied. His point was that Thais are just as good as "Farangs", absolutely not that Thais are better than Farangs.

Moreover, the entire thing was aimed, not in any way at all at Farangs, per se, but rather at the Red Shirts. Suthep has, in part, a job very similar to that of the Vice President of the US--to say the tough things that his boss cannot possibly say, but which, in the rough and tumble of Thai (or any other kind of) politics, need to be said. Corrupt elections notwithstanding, this is nothing more nor less than just democracy in action.

As to the word Farang, everyone has their own view on this and nothing I can say here will settle the matter. But if one takes the position that it is an ethnic epithet (which some of the posters here appear to), then one has to explain how a racial epithet can be used equally well to praise as to condemn. And there is no arguing that the word farang is used in everyday Thai discourse to do both with equal ease. As a though experiment, think of your favorite ethnic epithet in English (please note in passing that if you are a native speaker you have a wealth of choices, a veritable cornucopia of slurs, for almost any non-Northern European group you would like to use in your example). Then imagine seriously saying something like, "Those (insert favorite ethnic epithet here) sure have better (streets, public services, medical care) than we do." Does the resulting sentence sound a little nonsensical? That's because of the conflict between the epithet and the praise. But these kinds of sentences can be said in Thai using the word Farang and no one will even begin to think anything of it.

A very good post but I think many of us are not concerned about the word farang. If you really live in Thailand you get used to the kids smiling and pointing and saying farang - there is no ill intent and really is not the crux of this controversy. The controversy lies in respect!

There is no controversy with 'respect' as he didn't say he has no respect for foreigners. Now that the actual quote and translation is available the only controversy left is over the use of 'farang', which is no controversy imo although some disagree

[johncat1]

Suthep you really are an arsehol_e and a racist you are not fit to hold a seat of power.

ok we all know why you do not respect farangs It is because we cannot be bought like Thai people

A fair election in Thailand ? Never with people like Suthep in power.

[ra1n85]

I agree given his his stature he could have used a different word but I don't believe the word farang is not slang or impolite and that is us putting our political correct standard on another culture.

Farang is basically a neutral word, but people who respect you (or who should respect you) will not use it- if you hear a work colleague, for example, refer to you as farang they probably mean it as an insult while a taxi driver or market vendor does not know any better

If the statement came from a taxi driver or bar girl, we really can not expect anything better.

But from from someone in his position.

I do not accept the use of this term from anyone with any kind of education, but thats just me. Not being political or anything at all, simply respectful.

Agreed

[kuffki]

There's a thing called mutual respect. I believe Suthep wants Thais (including himself) be respected when they visit other countries. Not respecting other cultures is bordering racism. He could have said that he doesn't want foreign election monitors, period. Yet, he went a step further to express his disrespect for foreigners. Awesome. How much do foreigners contribute to the Thai economy? Not only tourists, but also exports. 99.9999% of tourists are not from Thailand and 100% of exports go to foreigners. It's like spitting in their faces and telling them "now visit my hotel, leave your money here and then buy my rice".

But then again, we couldn't expect anything else from politicians that don't respect their own Thais in the first place. If the Democrat party ever gets banned, maybe they can found the "Thai Nazi Party". Fits nicely with the racism.

How much have foreigners f*ked things up? Nazi party?

i hope you are joking!

Are you trying to compare what happened 60-70 odd years ago to current situation?

Ever heard learn from past mistakes?

[farang000999]

I agree with the deputy PM's assessment as well. Western NGOs and their members are often as crooked as they come and fronts for intelligence agencies.

I agree too. Having been in the US during the 2000 elections I was shocked to put it mildly when Gore was announced on TV news as the winner only to be overturned later when they found some more Bush votes to count in Florida which just happened to have GW's brother as governor. If the US is supposed to set the standard for free and fair elections why would any country want to let people in who potentially could have bee involved in the US 2000 elections?

Not to be a nitpicker but extensive investigation has shown that Bush actually won the state of Florida (unfortunately) in that election. But yes, of course corruption exists everywhere.

[Jingthing]

I agree with the deputy PM's assessment as well. Western NGOs and their members are often as crooked as they come and fronts for intelligence agencies.

I agree too. Having been in the US during the 2000 elections I was shocked to put it mildly when Gore was announced on TV news as the winner only to be overturned later when they found some more Bush votes to count in Florida which just happened to have GW's brother as governor. If the US is supposed to set the standard for free and fair elections why would any country want to let people in who potentially could have bee involved in the US 2000 elections?

Not to be a nitpicker but extensive investigation has shown that Bush actually won the state of Florida (unfortunately) in that election. But yes, of course corruption exists everywhere.

I'll up you're nit. The county with the butterfly ballot should have been REDONE because so many voters claimed the ballot was so deceptively designed that they thought they were voting for Gore voted but their votes were recorded differently instead. That would have been enough to turn the state, and the national election.

http://www.asktog.com/columns/042ButterflyBallot.html

Edited March 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[sausageandmash]

Ok, so you won't mind me calling you a c@#t then?

What a bunch of pathetic, pretentious cry babies.

Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me. I learned that when I was five. Apparently the education of farang is not all it's cracked up to be.

It is their country.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Paul Simon, "The Boxer" "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest." It's absolutely clear from reading the entire quote that Suthep was making a point almost 180 degrees different from what the lifted partial quote that was carelessly translated by the Nation implied. His point was that Thais are just as good as "Farangs", absolutely not that Thais are better than Farangs.

Moreover, the entire thing was aimed, not in any way at all at Farangs, per se, but rather at the Red Shirts. Suthep has, in part, a job very similar to that of the Vice President of the US--to say the tough things that his boss cannot possibly say, but which, in the rough and tumble of Thai (or any other kind of) politics, need to be said. Corrupt elections notwithstanding, this is nothing more nor less than just democracy in action.

As to the word Farang, everyone has their own view on this and nothing I can say here will settle the matter. But if one takes the position that it is an ethnic epithet (which some of the posters here appear to), then one has to explain how a racial epithet can be used equally well to praise as to condemn. And there is no arguing that the word farang is used in everyday Thai discourse to do both with equal ease. As a though experiment, think of your favorite ethnic epithet in English (please note in passing that if you are a native speaker you have a wealth of choices, a veritable cornucopia of slurs, for almost any non-Northern European group you would like to use in your example). Then imagine seriously saying something like, "Those (insert favorite ethnic epithet here) sure have better (streets, public services, medical care) than we do." Does the resulting sentence sound a little nonsensical? That's because of the conflict between the epithet and the praise. But these kinds of sentences can be said in Thai using the word Farang and no one will even begin to think anything of it.

A very good post but I think many of us are not concerned about the word farang. If you really live in Thailand you get used to the kids smiling and pointing and saying farang - there is no ill intent and really is not the crux of this controversy. The controversy lies in respect!

There is no controversy with 'respect' as he didn't say he has no respect for foreigners. Now that the actual quote and translation is available the only controversy left is over the use of 'farang', which is no controversy imo although some disagree

Actual quote and translation?

[jadedpanda]

Good on Suthep. Why should we respect farangs when farangs, by and large, don't respect Thailand or Thai people--as is evidenced over and over by the whiny racist bigots in this very thread and throughout the rest of these boards?

[Jingthing]

Good on Suthep. Why should we respect farangs when farangs, by and large, don't respect Thailand or Thai people--as is evidenced over and over by the whiny racist bigots in this very thread and throughout the rest of these boards?

You're right. There are many Europeans here who are racist against Thais. However to criticize things about Thailand that many Thais can't possibly ever see with the eyes of an outsider, is not racist. Like when people say Thailand's education level is very low compared to other countries like Singapore or Finland and attribute that to race, they're wrong, it's the culture and environment that causes that. Maybe even it's wrong to value high achievement so much, those are the choices different cultures are free to make and there are many other valuable things in the world like social cohesion, but being observed by others who see things differently shouldn't threaten Thais so much.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Jingthing

[witsawakorn]

I agree with the deputy PM's assessment as well. Western NGOs and their members are often as crooked as they come and fronts for intelligence agencies.

I agree too. Having been in the US during the 2000 elections I was shocked to put it mildly when Gore was announced on TV news as the winner only to be overturned later when they found some more Bush votes to count in Florida which just happened to have GW's brother as governor. If the US is supposed to set the standard for free and fair elections why would any country want to let people in who potentially could have bee involved in the US 2000 elections?

Not to be a nitpicker but extensive investigation has shown that Bush actually won the state of Florida (unfortunately) in that election. But yes, of course corruption exists everywhere.

Not to be a cynic but I wonder who carried out the investigation. Investigations and enquiries in the US seem to have a trend of coming out with the right answer. (JFK,RFK and 9-11 Enquiries come to mind)

[BuckarooBanzai]

Good on Suthep. Why should we respect farangs when farangs, by and large, don't respect Thailand or Thai people--as is evidenced over and over by the whiny racist bigots in this very thread and throughout the rest of these boards?

You're right. There are many Europeans here who are racist against Thais. However to criticize things about Thailand that many Thais can't possibly ever see with the eyes of an outsider, is not racist. Like when people say Thailand's education level is very low compared to other countries like Singapore or Finland and attribute that to race, they're wrong, it's the culture and environment that causes that. Maybe even it's wrong to value high achievement so much, those are the choices different cultures are free to make and there are many other valuable things in the world like social cohesion, but being observed by others who see things differently shouldn't threaten Thais so much.

+1

[MaiChai]

Farang, derived from farangset, meaning French. Think of the Gallic French nose (eg big like Gerrard Depardo the actor) and you are on the right track.

It is derogitary to use the word; it is often used to refer to you and i see alot of Thais embarrassed when they use. I and everyone else here knows all Westerners are not the same; for example Russians are not westerners, some people from Australia might be darker skinned having Greek ancestory, etc. He should have chosen his words more carefully since foreign observers may not caucasian or even from the West. I am sure Abhisit would have use politer wording.

The word farang should be banned; it just shows how uneducated Thais are about foreigners in that they cant differentiate people from different countries.

[sausageandmash]

Why not just take the money and vote the other way.

Although what Thaugsuban said was rude and jarring, I imagine he felt deep embarassment even having to make the rejection in public. Can you imagine Obama having to publically reject proposals for Thai election monitors? (Okay, crazy thought, but the same pinciple) Resonding to this stuff in public is humiliating to the Deputy PM. I've lived in Bangkok for five years now and I've seen how elections work; my wife's family live just outside Bangkok and all get paid to vote the right way (Abhisit). They rationalise that if they don't take the money (500/person last time) the local dude will keep it anyway - you gotta respect that logic.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Nisa, lets not turn this into a big discussion only about that. But personally i do not think i am in the same category as even half of the food you have mentioned. Not only that but i am human, not a fruit or snack or musical instrument, so to call me "kon dtahng bpra-tayt" would be much more respectfull then to equate me to above mentioned

??? Not turn it into a discussion about the word Farang???? You and many others have already done this. Why would you want to stop now?

why would you want to continue?

It has been already said that it is rather improper term to use for a man in his position. It is rather an improper term to use for anyone with education. Just because they (Thai's) use it so frequently it does not mean its respectful and correct. There is a correct term to use without even possibly offending someone, so why not use that?

Why not use kon dtahng bpra-tayt????

Clearly a number of people are not happy with the term "farang" a number of people get offended by the term and even a number of educated Thai's do not use it, because they know its impolite.

So why continue to use it being well aware that you could be offending someone?

The great majority of Thais have limited education and "Clearly a number of people are not happy with the term "farang" a number of people get offended by the term and even a number of educated Thai's do not use it, because they know its impolite." is beyond the scope of most Thais. Getting a grip on reality is a helpful thing when living as a guest in a foreign country.