Dentists And Meditation

[Mr. Farang]

edit: mr. farang, i snipped this from a post of yours: just to remind u .....but u do have some good input

The elder Monk (might have been the famous Achan Buddhadasa at Wat Suan Mok, but I can't recall for sure), told me that I should concentrate on my practice and that everyone lives with their own kamma. He explained that it is not for us to judge the Sangha or each other, but to practice based on our own kamma.

My life became much more happy and peaceful when I stopped worrying about, or judging the actions of others, acccepted everyone as situated in their own kamma-moment, and focused on practicing Dhamma in all things for myself, based on my kamma-situation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Bina,

You might have greater benefit if you kindly read and study the teachings of Achan Buddhasa Bikku at Wat Suan Mok and other Buddhist "thinkers"

You make me think that I have too much knowledge to post here, because you do not want to learn the truth of what the Buddha taught. I have replied to your post with pointers to what the Buddha actually taught. I have quoted some of the greatest Buddhist "gems"....

Why do you not discuss those concepts? Do you not believe in the teaching of the Buddha? Do you not practice or appreciate the concepts of Vipassana Bhavana? Are you not interested in any these teachings?

Take Care of Yourself, na Krap.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang.

Edited September 23, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[bina]

i dont think u have 'too much knowlege' as there is no such thing.... and actually we appreciate 'teaching'; but a key board naturally limits discourse in a 'normal' fashion

a good teacher learns from his students as much as he succeeds in teaching, as teaching is a process and not preaching and acceptance

in otherwords, u can lead the goat to water, but she'll only drink when she sees for herself that it is indeed water and if u shove her muzzle in the water all she does is sneeze....

u make some interesting points, but i guess thats why there are different streams of buddhism, and i dont think any one way is THE WAY, every one must find their own way...

Theravada Buddhist do not attribute this to the teachings of the Buddha,

but other buddhist sects do use these methods, no?? so i see it just as one of many interpretations so who is to say which is 'true'?? is that not the cause behind the different types of buddhist sects? did not the Buddha ask that people do not take what he says as absolute but that they should see for themselves (cant remember where that was mentioned but it is mentioned when he is talking to people)... so that is what teaching is.... giving information and allowing and gently guiding people to reach their own conclusions... and not claiming that one way is better then any other?

btw, didnt know about point c ~ i thought it was just men having a difficult day....

[Mr. Farang]

Theravada Buddhist do not attribute this to the teachings of the Buddha,

but other buddhist sects do use these methods, no?? so i see it just as one of many interpretations so who is to say which is 'true'?? is that not the cause behind the different types of buddhist sects? did not the Buddha ask that people do not take what he says as absolute but that they should see for themselves (cant remember where that was mentioned but it is mentioned when he is talking to people)... so that is what teaching is.... giving information and allowing and gently guiding people to reach their own conclusions... and not claiming that one way is better then any other?

Dera Khun Bina,

Your are correct that the different schools of Buddhism are very different. I try to always point out two things:

(1) My knowledge is based on Theravada Buddhism.

(2) Theravada Buddhism is the basis for Thai Buddhism, and a pillar of Thai Culture, and Thai Government.

Also, we need to have a basis for discussion because, if you abstract Buddhism so that it means "everything to everyone" it will then mean "nothing to no one." In Thailand, we teach Theravada Buddhism and we point out what is Theravada and what is not. As this is "Thai Visa", I think this approach is not only appropriate - but also a duty and an obligation.

btw, didnt know about point c ~   i thought it was just men having a difficult day....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, Khun Bina,

Mental control and using concentration is a very old "art and science" ..... Also, please keep in mind that I am not saying that using mind concentration techniques to delay orgasm or controlling the mind at the dentist is "right" or "wrong".... or "good" or "bad" it simply is not what the Buddha taught.

BTW: Most schools and sects of Buddhism developed after the time of the Buddha. The only remaining "original school" is Theravda Buddhism. Many other schools have woven into or attributed into the teachings of the Buddha, many things that pleased them and their cause, but did not please or interest the Buddha. Some claim the Buddha "hid knowledge" from people. I do not believe this for one second - and my practice and experience only confirms that the Buddha actually taught. The Buddha revealed as much as he could, with a loving heart. What he did reveal is more than enough for anyone to practice. In fact, what he revealed is "overwhelming" at times.

I consider it both an honor and an obligation of the Theravada Brotherhood (the Sangha and the Dharmma and the Buddha) to honor the "Way of the Elders." It is my kamma.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

Edited September 23, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[chownah]

I'm wanting to know if a person is alway exhibiting Right View or Wrong View for every instant of their lives....or....is there another state, perhaps called Unimportant View, meaning that it doesn't matter one way or the other.

Right View is defined as being in two parts: part 1 is to accept the concept of Kamma and part 2 is to accept the Four Noble Truths (1. life is suffering, 2. desire is the root of suffering, 3. there is an end to suffering, and 4. The end to suffering is brought about by the Noble 8 Fold Path.) Is it possible for someone to do things which are of no significance (neither helping nor hindering ) in following the path but still be described as having Right View since they do accept Kamma and the Four Noble Truths?

Could someone have Right View and still take intoxicants...or does the fact that they are taking intoxicants prove that they do not have Right View.

Is Right View a mental object which arises and extinguishes moment by moment?

Is Wrong View simply the absence of Right View? I haven't found much on the subject of Wrong View in the text which I have collected so far.

[Mr. Farang]

I'm wanting to know if a person is alway exhibiting Right View or Wrong View for every instant of their lives....or....is there another state, perhaps called Unimportant View, meaning that it doesn't matter one way or the other.

Right View is defined as being in two parts: part 1 is to accept the concept of Kamma and part 2 is to accept the Four Noble Truths (1. life is suffering, 2. desire is the root of suffering, 3. there is an end to suffering, and 4. The end to suffering is brought about by the Noble 8 Fold Path.)  Is it possible for someone to do things which are of no significance (neither helping nor hindering ) in following the path but still be described as having Right View since they do accept Kamma and the Four Noble Truths?

Could someone have Right View and still take intoxicants...or does the fact that they are taking intoxicants prove that they do not have Right View.

Is Right View a mental object which arises and extinguishes moment by moment?

Is Wrong View simply the absence of Right View?  I haven't found much on the subject of Wrong View in the text which I have collected so far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Chownah,

That is a very interesting and well thought out question.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

[Abandon]

It is certainly possible for someone to always have Right View - Mr Farang does it very well indeed - whatever his view, he is keen to point out that he is so right. (pompous, irritating and arrogant to others of course)

Technically, right view is always listed as the following (in countless suttas)

"there is [result from] what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed; there is fruit and result from good and bad actions; there is this world and the other world; there is mother and father; there are beings who are born spontaneously; there are good and virtuous reclues and brahmins in the world who have themselves realised by direct knowledge, and declare this world and the other world"

I put it here as this has always interested me, and never satisfied myslef as to the significance of it. As always with Dhamma, especially if one is new to it, you should look at consider ans test the teachings, and not blindly adhere to them (of course...) . Sutta 60 of the Majjhima Nikaya expands upon this teaching,

http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_w...nnaka_sutta.htm

right view can be come upon by wise attention (not the same as mindfulness) or by listening to another (miii 71f).

that is 'mundane' right view, which is not the same as supramundane right view which is the 4 noble truths - though interestingly, this can only be understood with the mind that is freed of the Taints (asava) i.e. has attained to the 'liberation of the mind' (vimutti nyana dassana). Of course, everyone has an understanding of the 4NT, but according to the spec, it willnot be right until freedon from the asava ....

That is the repeated, continual definition of right view in the scriptures, though there is one sutta that makes more sense, and thus has more appeal to westerners

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta...mn-009-nb0.html

One can have mundane right view, and still do foolish things, and misunderstand Dhamma, but supramundane right view ... I would venture that it is unlikely.

Edited September 23, 2005 by Pandit

[Mr. Farang]

It is certainly possible for someone to always have Right View - Mr Farang does it very well indeed - whatever his view, he is keen to point out that he is so right. (pompous, irritating and arrogant to others of course)

Your personal attacks are against the forum rules. One who follows the Eight Fold Path never call people names, even when they disagree with them. I respect others, even if their views are different.

Your posts, on the other hand, Pandit, are a living example of "Wrong View". If someone who has more knowledge and experience than you disagrees with you, instead of discussing the topic, you resort to personal attacks. How can you claim to know the mind of the Buddha when you have such little self-control and respect for others?

Thank you, however, for demonstrating what the Buddha would have surely told you, Khun Pandit, that you have "Wrong View" in this and other discussions.

Don't call people names or insult them if you do not agree with them. That is "Right Speech." If you even considered the Eight Fold Path for a second in your replies or posts, you would know your actions are "Wrong View" and "Wrong Speech".

I suggest you enjoy some reading of "Right Speech"..... and attempt to practice those concepts. Also, you should obey the forum rules, even if to do not like others or what they say. However, I have a feeling you will not attempt to be a person of "Right Speech" so, since the moderators here do not enforce the rules, best to just /ignore people who speak as the know the mind of the Buddha, but do not walk the Path he taught.

I am sorry, but I am really not interested in reading your insults and disrespectful comments to others. I do not read posts of people who consistently violate forum rules, unless the moderators take the time to moderate the rule violations. I am sorry to inform Pandit that I have much better things to do with my time than to read his insults. Take good care of yourself and good luck with your studies.

You might "Go to the Temple more" ... because when people discuss differing Buddhist ideas in temples they attempt to speak kindly, even if they disagree. You could learn a lot there, based on my read of your posts, Khun Pandit.

Edited September 23, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Mr. Farang]

I'm wanting to know if a person is alway exhibiting Right View or Wrong View for every instant of their lives....or....is there another state, perhaps called Unimportant View, meaning that it doesn't matter one way or the other.

Dear Khun Chownah,

All worldly things are conditioned. Right View comes and goes, Wrong View comes and go. They rise, fall and pass away, like all mental objects.

Right View is defined as being in two parts: part 1 is to accept the concept of Kamma and part 2 is to accept the Four Noble Truths (1. life is suffering, 2. desire is the root of suffering, 3. there is an end to suffering, and 4. The end to suffering is brought about by the Noble 8 Fold Path.)  Is it possible for someone to do things which are of no significance (neither helping nor hindering ) in following the path but still be described as having Right View since they do accept Kamma and the Four Noble Truths?

If someone does not accept the Four Noble Truths when they do not have the "Right View" The same can be said for attempting to follow the Eight Fold Path.

Could someone have Right View and still take intoxicants...or does the fact that they are taking intoxicants prove that they do not have Right View.

It depends on many factors, Khun Chownah. Having a social drink and talking kindly to people can still be "Right Action".... Monks have a different set of precepts than laypeople.

Is Right View a mental object which arises and extinguishes moment by moment?

Yes. Buddhist thought (the Path, for example) is just a tool. I think you are very astute to ask this question. Impressive.

Is Wrong View simply the absence of Right View?  I haven't found much on the subject of Wrong View in the text which I have collected so far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Chownah,

I will need to think more about your last question. As I said earlier, very good questions, Khun Chownah. Do you regularly sit and meditate? If so, what style do you practice?

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

Edited September 23, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Tywais]

These discussions reminds me of my philosophy class in "Classical and Contemporary Metaphysics", very enlightening and thought provoking but makes me dizzy.

Edited September 24, 2005 by tywais

[camerata]

since the moderators here do not enforce the rules, best to just /ignore people who speak as the know the mind of the Buddha, but do not walk the Path he taught.

Actually, our moderator is on retreat in Sri Lanka, but what he would say is:

"Yo brethren, don't forget our number-one rule here in the Buddhism forum: be cool."

It seems that no matter which forum we go to, we Westerners (and I include myself) are so quick to criticize and have so much to learn from Thais in that respect. It's no wonder that Right Speech is so rarely discussed by farang Buddhists!

Let's be nice to each other...

[camerata]

but other buddhist sects do use these methods, no??

You're in good company, Bina. Most of Thailand's forest meditation masters used meditation techniques to deal with pain or danger. When asked why he didn't go to a hospital to get his malaria taken care of, Ajahn Chah replied, "I am taking care of it, here and now."

These monks were famous for using meditation to deal with wild animals. One of them had a huge king cobra coil around him as he stood and prepare to strike at his face. He immediately meditated using the mantra araham, and the snake changed its mind and slithered off. There are numerous stories of deep meditation keeping monks safe when face to face with tigers in the jungle, and one used a kasina technique to calm a herd of rampaging elephants thundering towards his kuti.

These monks put their faith in Dhamma and were prepared to die for it. I'm sure this letting go of everything, including attachment to life, is why some became arahants.

[Abandon]

but other buddhist sects do use these methods, no??

You're in good company, Bina. Most of Thailand's forest meditation masters used meditation techniques to deal with pain or danger. When asked why he didn't go to a hospital to get his malaria taken care of, Ajahn Chah replied, "I am taking care of it, here and now."

These monks were famous for using meditation to deal with wild animals. One of them had a huge king cobra coil around him as he stood and prepare to strike at his face. He immediately meditated using the mantra araham, and the snake changed its mind and slithered off. There are numerous stories of deep meditation keeping monks safe when face to face with tigers in the jungle, and one used a kasina technique to calm a herd of rampaging elephants thundering towards his kuti.

These monks put their faith in Dhamma and were prepared to die for it. I'm sure this letting go of everything, including attachment to life, is why some became arahants.

Of course - those for whom it did not work decayed in remote jungle thickets, not having lived to tell the tale

Watching suffering arise and cease is the path of vipassana, and this means in daily life, not just in books. Seeing how suffering arises, diminishes and passes away in daily situations such as the dentist is real application of the teachings. It can be called Dhammavicaya (investigation of dhamma) and comes after sati (mindfulness) in the 7 limbs of Enlightenment.

[bina]

Is Wrong View simply the absence of Right View?  I haven't found much on the subject of Wrong View in the text which I have collected so far.

arent we supposed to transcend the naming of something: i.e. right view should lead to -- nothingness, or emptiness, or self- less ness ??

what is the 'araham' suttra?

it seems to me, that this sticking to terms and obsessiveness with properly defining actions, again, causes us to be too concerned with 'self' and we therefore dont 'disengage'...?? (i'm puzzling something out, not stating a fact)

in general it reminds me of learning to ride (we rode bareback on half trained awful horses); someone was always yelling: just let go, go with him (the horse), dont fight him, dont think about sitting and staying on, just 'let go'.... and suddenly ten minutes later i would realize that i'd been sitting on the horse without falling etc... with that realization, i would start to think of the 'rise and fall movement of the horse' and then find myself off balance and almost falling....

as far as pain control: stealing this quote (The Ten Recollections

A Study Guide

Prepared by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Copyright © 1999 Thanissaro Bhikkhu)

out of context a bit:

[/i]

Ten Benefits

"Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, ten benefits can be expected. Which ten?

"[1] He conquers displeasure & delight, and displeasure does not conquer him. He remains victorious over any displeasure that has arisen.

"[2] He conquers fear & dread, and fear & dread do not conquer him. He remains victorious over any fear & dread that have arisen.

"[3] "He is resistant to cold, heat, hunger, thirst, the touch of gadflies & mosquitoes, wind & sun & creeping things; to abusive, hurtful language; he is the sort that can endure bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, sharp, stabbing, fierce, distasteful, disagreeable, deadly.

i suppose that learning vipissana meditation just to get the ten benefits without wanting the Right view is actually wrong view which is what Mr. Farang is trying to get at?

(its a jewish thing to end every sentence with a question mark )

[chownah]

I'm wanting to know if a person is alway exhibiting Right View or Wrong View for every instant of their lives....or....is there another state, perhaps called Unimportant View, meaning that it doesn't matter one way or the other.

Dear Khun Chownah,

All worldly things are conditioned. Right View comes and goes, Wrong View comes and go. They rise, fall and pass away, like all mental objects.

Right View is defined as being in two parts: part 1 is to accept the concept of Kamma and part 2 is to accept the Four Noble Truths (1. life is suffering, 2. desire is the root of suffering, 3. there is an end to suffering, and 4. The end to suffering is brought about by the Noble 8 Fold Path.)  Is it possible for someone to do things which are of no significance (neither helping nor hindering ) in following the path but still be described as having Right View since they do accept Kamma and the Four Noble Truths?

If someone does not accept the Four Noble Truths when they do not have the "Right View" The same can be said for attempting to follow the Eight Fold Path.

Could someone have Right View and still take intoxicants...or does the fact that they are taking intoxicants prove that they do not have Right View.

It depends on many factors, Khun Chownah. Having a social drink and talking kindly to people can still be "Right Action".... Monks have a different set of precepts than laypeople.

Is Right View a mental object which arises and extinguishes moment by moment?

Yes. Buddhist thought (the Path, for example) is just a tool. I think you are very astute to ask this question. Impressive.

Is Wrong View simply the absence of Right View?  I haven't found much on the subject of Wrong View in the text which I have collected so far.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Chownah,

I will need to think more about your last question. As I said earlier, very good questions, Khun Chownah. Do you regularly sit and meditate? If so, what style do you practice?

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have meditated at different times in my life. The most rewarding for me was practicing Thai Chi (as a meditation) and doing sitting meditation (following the breath) on a twice daily basis. I have also done yogic postures coupled with sitting mediation which I thought was very productive. I haven't done any regular meditative practice for several years now except for certain aspects of Tai Chi which tend to stick with you even if you don't practice regularly. My life seems to be taking me toward a regular practice again and since I now live in Thailand I thought I should at least check out Buddhism. So far the things I have read seem to mesh very well with the things I have learned from other sources. I was surprised when I read about Touch Consciousness in the Satipatthana Vipassana Meditation which you provided in a link earlier.....there is no doubt in my mind that this is the exact same type of awareness which is developed in practicing Tai Chi as meditiation. Almost every Buddhist teaching that I've read seems to resonate with what I've already learned but I am most impressed with the level of detail that the Buddha used in explaining how it all fits together....he seems to have laid out a complete system for advancing conscious awareness. I have a strong scientific background and I am trained (or is it conditioned?) to be sceptical and to think critically about systems of understanding and I can see now that I have been applying this in my Buddhist studies...that's one reason why I ask so many questions. I think that what I have been doing in this questioning is dispelling doubt. I now understand that doubt is one of the hindrances so I guess it is good that I'm dealing with this. I've started working on mindfullness throughout the day...usually it is to be mindfull of my breathing which is sort of easy for me since I have done lots of sitting meditation using breathing in the past. I'm now working on generalizing this to being mindful of the six senses and have been making some progress in that I have occasionally been able to see destracting thoughts arise and then fall away....this is a new experience for me and very interesting...it makes me feel that I'm on the right track. My intention is to start a regimen of daily sitting meditation but I have to approach this a bit slowly so that my wife isnt' frightened by it....she's Thai and spent a week once with the women in white doing meditation and talks as if it was a good experience but since her daily life has shown no outward signs of interest in meditation I want to approach this slowly and if I do I'm sure it will work out fine. My thoughts now are that I'll try to follow the Satipatthana Vipassana Meditation from the link you posted and also keep studying the Dhammapada and other suttas and the "The Noble Eightfold Path The Way to the End of Suffering" by Bhikkhu Bodhi which I have from a link and of course keep asking questions and finding new sources....but I don't want collecting texts to become a habit. It would be nice to find a teacher but I have always been more of an independent learner so I'm not discouraged by lack of one...perhaps in the future.

I've been thinking about the Noble 8 Fold Path as a complete system and it seems to be an iterative process...do you think that this is Right View?

[Mr. Farang]

I've been thinking about the Noble 8 Fold Path as a complete system and it seems to be an iterative process...do you think that this is Right View?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Chownah,

I am pleased that you have taken an interest in understanding Theravada Buddhism. Theravada Buddhism is quite difficult to follow, because, for most people who practice, they get "sidetracked" with all the "distractions" that obfuscate the Four Noble Truths. And, there are many many "distractions" when following the Eight Fold Path, and many people, so situated, look for very obsure passages in a single Buddhist discourse to justify their seduction by these mental objects. Many people seek one line in the Suttas to avoid concentrating on the other 100,000,000 lines! They cannot see the ocean because they are focused on a drop of water! So it is also in the development of Bhavana.

Please allow me to illustrate:

For example, when I was first taught Vipassana Meditation, I began to develop an abiltity to do many things with mental objects that I could not do before, because concentration was so much better. I could hold objects in my mind, examine them, play with them, copy them, duplicate them, resize them. I recall playing with "spinning balls", first one, then two, then three.... more and more and more....... with delight when I could manage many of these objects in my mind. But, when I told this to my teachers they said to Stop! doing this, it was not what the Buddha taught we should do with our mindfulness. Hence, my Brothers and Sisters,

In the practice of Vipassana Meditation, to develop Vipassana Bhavana, you are putting out "Right Effort" and "Right Concentration" along the Eight Fold Path. If you, so situated, are looking at the rising and falling and passing away of mental objects and knows these objects - the feelings that arise, how they effect the mind, are impermanent, then you are developing "Right View". If, so situated, you begin to seek the truth of kamma for yourself, and begin to live your life where you speak gently and kindly to others, this is "Right Speech". If, so situated, you see that there is "No Self", then you have "Right View".

Many people, so situated. their mind becomes fascinated with all the mental distractions and metaphysical aspects in the mind. They become pleased with mind control, thet are interested in pain control, they are "powerful" with body control. So situated, they demonstrate their "power" and are pleased to share this "power" with others. Others, so situated, are pleased to listen. So situated, they do not talk about (or rarely talk about) kamma, impermanance, bhavana, and the many fruits of the Eight Fold Path. So situated, they discuss "what happens after I die" and "look at this power I have" without Mindfulness of what they are doing now, in this moment.

Even the Buddha, as it has been told, with all of his experience, was tempted by Mara, power, seduction, and more when he was on the Path to becoming the Enlightened One. Dear Brothers and Sisters, Isn't it very safe to say that many people, so situated, who are not the Buddha are also tempted and seduced by the powers that develop during mental concentration?

To illustrate, I will provide a few experiences of many years ago:

During my first year of deep daily meditation (over 15 years ago), I became very calm, peaceful, happy, caring, wonderful and more. This resulted in being more sexy, more attractive, more interesting to the opposite sex. It seemed that every place I went there were many woman who wanted to seduce me. This, my Brothers and Sisters, is an example of the temptations along the Eight Fold Path which happen as Mindfulness develops. For most people, so situated, it is very easy to be tempted and to be seduced by the power that insight brings to the mind.

During subsequent years of my practice, it was not necessary to sit every day, as I was focused on business, practicing Buddhist principles in everyday life. My career and business was very strong and my income jumped up to a very high amount. So situated, I started to become seduced by money, tempted by greed, wanting more and more and more. There are many distractions and temptations, they are everywhere, all around us!

Therefore, my Brothers and Sisters, I have been trying to explain to you that there are many, many, many distractions and seductions for the body and mind as the mind is cultivated by Bhavana. With increase in Wisdom, there is an increase in Temptation. As the Buddha taught, with every worldly objectly there is the attractive quality we are interested in - and the penalty we pay for being attracted to something. This "clinging"... or this "attachment" is the root cause of Suffering.

That is why, my Brothers and Sisters, I caution you not to use the powers that come from the development of Mindfulness, cultivated by meditation practice, for any purpose but for the practice of Vipassana Meditation and the development of Vipassana Bhavana. This, my Friends, is the foundation of Theravada Buddhism. This is the Way of the Elders.

The choice is yours, because in every moment, there is Rebirth. Rebirth of Desire. Rebirth of Clinging. Rebirth of Love. Rebirth of Hate. Rebirth of Like. Rebirth of Dislike. and then there is the Falling away of Desire. Falling away of Clinging. Falling away of Love. Falling away of Hate. Falling away of Like. Falling away of Dislike.

The Buddhist cultivates the mind to see these things, developing Bhavana and avoids distractions that seduce the mind. This is the Eight Fold Path. This is the Noble Truth.

Khun Chownah, you are right! So situated, collecting Suttas and Buddhist Books and Discourses can also be distraction, a defilement, and Bhavana is primarily cultivated from observing the rising, falling and passing away of all things, moment-to-moment. It is very difficult to Follow the Middle Path - because the Mind is easily seduced. The Mind is quickly attracted to Beauty. The Mind quickly rejects things which are not Beautiful. The Mind is Restless, Easily Seduced, Fascinated with Sensual Objects. Power is a Sensual Object of the Mind.

All of this, is readily seen in the Four Noble Truths. The Way to accomplish this is outlined in the Eight Fold Path - as taught by the Buddha. The greatest tool available to the Mind to embark on the Path is Vipassana Meditation.

This is the Way of the Elders. This is Theravada Buddhism. This is "Right View".

Take Good Care of Yourself and Be Safe, na Krap.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

Edited September 24, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[chownah]

Is Wrong View simply the absence of Right View?  I haven't found much on the subject of Wrong View in the text which I have collected so far.

arent we supposed to transcend the naming of something: i.e. right view should lead to -- nothingness, or emptiness, or self- less ness ??

what is the 'araham' suttra?

it seems to me, that this sticking to terms and obsessiveness with properly defining actions, again, causes us to be too concerned with 'self' and we therefore dont 'disengage'...?? (i'm puzzling something out, not stating a fact)

in general it reminds me of learning to ride (we rode bareback on half trained awful horses); someone was always yelling: just let go, go with him (the horse), dont fight him, dont think about sitting and staying on, just 'let go'.... and suddenly ten minutes later i would realize that i'd been sitting on the horse without falling etc... with that realization, i would start to think of the 'rise and fall movement of the horse' and then find myself off balance and almost falling....

as far as pain control: stealing this quote (The Ten Recollections

A Study Guide

Prepared by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Copyright © 1999 Thanissaro Bhikkhu)

out of context a bit:

[/i]

Ten Benefits

"Monks, for one in whom mindfulness immersed in the body is cultivated, developed, pursued, handed the reins and taken as a basis, given a grounding, steadied, consolidated, & well-undertaken, ten benefits can be expected. Which ten?

"[1] He conquers displeasure & delight, and displeasure does not conquer him. He remains victorious over any displeasure that has arisen.

"[2] He conquers fear & dread, and fear & dread do not conquer him. He remains victorious over any fear & dread that have arisen.

"[3] "He is resistant to cold, heat, hunger, thirst, the touch of gadflies & mosquitoes, wind & sun & creeping things; to abusive, hurtful language; he is the sort that can endure bodily feelings that, when they arise, are painful, sharp, stabbing, fierce, distasteful, disagreeable, deadly.

i suppose that learning vipissana meditation just to get the ten benefits without wanting the Right view is actually wrong view which is what Mr. Farang is trying to get at?

(its a jewish thing to end every sentence with a question mark )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been doing alot of reading lately. I just downloaded both links from Pandit's last post (Thank you, Pandit) and quickly read both of them...they're about Right View and the first one even talks about Wrong View. To me they seem to present two different views on Right View...I'm going to have to read them more carefully and think about it a bit before I feel I can make any statement about it....I'm a bit surprised on their content as I wasn't expecting anything so involved.

I'm starting to develop an idea about what this Buddhist thing is all about. At least this is my best guess based on where I am now....odds are it will change with time. I think that it is a method that will help to move you along a path to 'higher consciousness' which I'll use 'cause I don't know the correct terminology for this. Those who start on this path start from a high degree of ignorance and when we start to meditate and concentrate on the 4 Noble Truths and Kamma and the Noble 8 Fold Path etc. we do so with a very clouded understanding of what this is all about and what it really means. If you follow the recommended method you will make progress even though your understanding is limited...and the result will be a learning...learning about all of these things...but you won't learn everything completely...only you will be better off than you were at first....and if you continue then this better understanding will lead you to a deeper level of awareness, concentration, mindfullness, whatever......which lead to further learning. I guess, in a nutshell, right now it seems to me that Buddha's system for advancement is sort of a one size fits all deal where it works for the beginner as well as the expert...the quality of your inputs (knowledge, concentration, wisdom, delusion, attachment, craving, etc.) will determine the effect that you get and what you might learn. It seems to be designed to reduce the things that inhibit the experience and to accent the things that will help. Different people will see different effects from different efforts since we all start with different 'conditioning' as Mr. Farang would call it. A person who is really hung up on sensuallity might find a strong effect with one aspect of the meditation while someone who has a lot of conditioned anger might might find more benefit in another part of the practice. Progress might not be even in all things for all people......but the system is claimed to work for everyone and it is at least hinted that this is really the only sytem that works....a claim that makes me want to become very sceptical...but, in fact, I have found no point of significant difference between what I've read so far about Theraveda Buddhism and what I've learned in other types of meditation.

With the above in mind I guess that saying that "i suppose that learning vipissana meditation just to get the ten benefits without wanting the Right view is actually wrong view...." might be partly right and partly wrong. In my view today, we all start from delusion so none of us has perfect Right View. As a beginner if you think that the purpose of the Noble 8 Fold path is to get the ten benefits then this is probably Wrong View....but not to worry...by doing some meditation and starting to work towards moving on the path it is likely that your views will change...if you don't have Right View to some (even small) degree then its unlikely that you would start working your way down the path at all and the fact that you do start will show at least a bit of Right View....as you proceed it is hoped that your Right View will become enriched and your Wrong View will correspondingly be extinguished. I think that a possible problem occurs when someone thinks something like this: " I really only want be able to avoid physical pain so instead of following all of that Buddhist stuff I figure I can just pick and choose pieces of it to get what I want out of it and just ignore the rest." This is probably the big Wrong View because it won't lead you along the path because the path requires that all the elements come into play since they are all part of one big happening thing which is entirely greater than the sum of the parts...but I suppose that even starting form this big Wrong View your attitudes could change and....voila....Right View would emerge.

Anyway I've been reading and typing alot today and I'm too tired to even proof read this...so...hope it makes sense and as always I'm interested in peoples input about anything I've said since I'm just sort of feeling my way along here and most all of the posts from everyone have been very helpful.

Edited September 24, 2005 by chownah

[Mr. Farang]

I'm just sort of feeling my way along here and most all of the posts from everyone have been very helpful.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Khun Chownah,

Your open mind is excellent. You are absolutely right in that the most important thing is to (simply) "practice" without "attachment" to outcomes. Also, the "practice" benefits greatly from a "baseline" or "guide posts". The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths. That is a very wonderful baseline to ground ones practice in. There are other "baselines" and people are certainly free to follow any baseline they choose. I defer to the fact that this forum is Thai Visa (it is not the Tibet Visa Forum or the Nepal Visa Forum), and Thailand is conditioned, to a great degree, as is Sri Lanka, by Theravada Buddism.

With regard to the different schools of Buddhism, they exist, they are all conditioned by humans, all of them. Thailand is conditioned by spirit worship, animism and other belief systems and conditioners. Despite all the "conditioning" that exists, it is generally accepted by all scholars that Theravada Buddhism is the closest to the original teachings of the Buddha. But, it is also important to note that Theravada Buddhism is also conditioned, as the words were recorded by men who were conditioned.

Mahayana Buddhism, from what I have read, is said to have originated from "secret teachings of the Buddha" that were "not revealed to his followers during the life of the Buddha." Everyone is entitled to their beliefs and their kamma is their own. I am also entitled to mine and my kamma. My apologies to the Mahayanists here, but I do not believe that the Buddha had "secret teaching" that he did not chose to reveal to his Monks. I was taught by Thai and Sri Lankan Senior Monks and therefore, I am conditioned by my teachers (as we all are).

On the other hand, I find much of Hindu mythology interesting. For example, I find that many people like to evoke Shiva, the Destroyer, when they are angry or afraid. They are quick to "summon" within themselves, Shiva and their own power of Shiva to destroy. One of the many problems of evoking Shiva is that creating takes so much longer than destroying. Hence, a relationship with someone can be built in a lifetime and destroyed in a second.

In a nutshell, the Buddha also taught us: "Don't easily get angry." and that certainly means that when in public forums, people should not call each other names, insult them, or attack them personally.

Luckily and gratefully, there are many very wonderful, good people here on TV who abide by forum rules, are self-disiplined, and make strong contributions.

Thank you and take care, Krap.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

Edited September 24, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[bina]

wow chownah, how did u type all that and not get confused???

i guess what sums up some of what u were thinking out loud is something that someone once taught me that its like cleaning out an old crowded attic: u start in a corner cause u are looking for something, but u start cleaning, and the cleaning is pleasing in its results in and of itself, as opposed to looking for something, cleaning a bit and leaving.....and eventually the attic is cleaned ( i think it was a jewish philosopher using this as a metaphor for learning torah; that someone who gets interested in only one sentence, while learning the sentence, might stay to learn more, and by learning more, it motivates him to enlarge his scope)

like a seed of something that gets planted, even by accident

As a beginner if you think that the purpose of the Noble 8 Fold path is to get the ten benefits then this is probably Wrong View....but not to worry...by doing some meditation and starting to work towards moving on the path it is likely that your views will change...if you don't have Right View to some (even small) degree then its unlikely that you would start working your way down the path at all and the fact that you do start will show at least a bit of Right View....as you proceed it is hoped that your Right View will become enriched and your Wrong View will correspondingly be extinguished. I think that a possible problem occurs when someone thinks something like this: " I really only want be able to avoid physical pain so instead of following all of that Buddhist stuff I figure I can just pick and choose pieces of it to get what I want out of it and just ignore the rest." This is probably the big Wrong View because it won't lead you along the path because the path requires that all the elements come into play since they are all part of one big happening thing which is entirely greater than the sum of the parts...but I suppose that even starting form this big Wrong View your attitudes could change and....voila....Right View would emerge.

edit: my blue accent Edited September 24, 2005 by bina

[sabaijai]

I logged on to the forum tonight, my last night here in Sri Lanka (for this trip at least) before flying back to Thailand, and was bummed to see the tight-chested feelings in this thread.

It's not going anywhere at this point, so I'm closing it.

We're all practising in different ways and at different levels (assuming we consider ourselves to be practising at all of course) and need to think a bit before branding other posts as silly, wrong view, ignorant, etc.

Bina, I found your "more painless dentistry through buddhism" story inspiring. Ands it sure attracted a lot of response!