Help.....?'S About Life Insurance Policy In Us

[jaideeguy]

Pop @ 92 yrs passed away on 12 March at my home in Thailand of natural causes and we went thru [what I was told] was the proper procedure. notify puyai baan/police/then get Thai death certificate from arbatour/ then get Thai DC translated and finally submit translated DC to the US cousulate in CM and they accepted the cause of death [translated from Thai] as 'aging'. The US cousulate accepted that as valid and issued 20 notorised copies of 'afidavit of death of an American abroad' which they said would suffice as a death certificate for cleaning up Pop's estate....closing of bank accounts and insurance claims etc.

My brother in the US is the trustee of the estate and is trying to process the paperwork from Pop's trust and contacted the insurance company [John Hancock] and they gave him a check list of what they required before paying off the beneficiaries [myself, brother and sister] and one item on the checklist is.......

'if the death occured outside the US or Canada, #1]....submit the 'report of a death of a US citizen abroad' [which we had 20 notorized copies of ] and #2....a physican's statement, completed and signed by the local dr who certified the death.

There was no Dr that certified the death [he died at home, as per his living will request]....only the puyai baan witnessed and that was accepted by the police and arbatour then the US consulate.

he did have a housecall from a Dr about a month before his death, but she did not witness death, but knew of his health issues and desire to 'die at home without goiing to heroics in a Thai hospital'

What kind of mess is this?? and how can we satisfy John Hancock??

Any suggestions or advise appreciated!!

Edited March 30, 2011 by jaideeguy

[vont]

he did have a housecall from a Dr about a month before his death, but she did not witness death, but knew of his health issues and desire to 'die at home without goiing to heroics in a Thai hospital'

Talk to the female physician, she should be able to sign off for you, even though she was not present at time of death.

She was the most qualified person to satisfy John H. in terms of medical certification.

It is customary in Thailand that when you approach someone for assistance, you ought to bring some fruits basket to honor that person--whoever the person is.

Am sure you are already aware of that.

[Sheryl]

In the US and many (perhaps most) countries, death certificates have to be signed by a physician, hence the insurance company's wording. I'm sure that, if informed that in Thailand death is certified by administrative authorities rather than physicians, they will accept in its place a certificate from the physician under whose care he was at the time of death i.e. a physician familiar with his condition who is prepared to state what the cause of death was. (Even in the US, it is quite common for physicians to sign death certificates assigning cause of death to patients they had not actually seen at time of death...I know for example that in California a physician may legally do this as long as he saw the patient some time in the prior 30 days, other states may allow even longer periods).

The insurance company's concern here is to ensure that the cause of death was not something which would invalidate the policy e.g. suicide. Get a letter from a physician familiar with his condition stating that he had been under his/her care for X months/years and was suffering from XYZ and other conditions related to old age, and that his death is attributable to same. In English, with letterhead or stamp.

Explain to the doctor that it is a requirement of the insurance company.

That should do it.

[jaideeguy]

Sheryl to the rescue again.....I had just sent an email to his dr, who made a house call last month....took blood, Dx and Rxed him and she is fully aware of his condition prior to death. Hopefully she will cooperate. Is there a standard from for drs to fill out re: death of a foreign patient??

Thanks for your input.....again.

J

[BuckarooBanzai]

I am surprised that your father was not taken to the hospital for "post-mortem treatment" as that is standard practice here in Surin. This hospital visit, which involves some preservation procedures, is also the period in which the DC is filled out by a Doc and then sent on to the police for verification of cause of death and then forwarded to the family and Embassy. Perhaps others should be forewarned of your current insurance difficulties and follow a more formal procedure. I am surprised that anyone other than a Doctor can fill out the DC as cause of death should be a medical judgment and not a guess by a layman.

Very sorry for your loss and hope you quickly get past these documentation difficulties.

I only post this to show a more formal, common place procedure is available which could help others avoid similar insurance problems.

[Sheryl]

In Thailand, DC can be issued by the local authorities (Phuyai ban, Tambon, Ampur). In the case of a Thai national, that is all that is needed. In case foul play is suspected police are summoned, otherwise it is from home to Wat.

In the case of foreign nationals the official procedure is to notify the police and bring the body to a hospital morgue to be held there until the relevant Embassy has been informed and has authorized release of the body. The purpose of this is to ensure Embassy notification; Embassies' concern in turn is to ensure notification of next of kin and disposal of the body in accordance with their wishes. In case of suspicious circumstances an Embassy might also get involved in advocating for an autopsy and investigation.

However it sometimes happens that local officials are not aware of the law and treat a foreigner's death the same as they would a Thai. Of no practical importance in this case since the next of kin resided with the deceased in Thailand, and notified the Embassy themselves.

As to cause of death being assigned by a layperson, until recently even in the US most coroners were laypeople and I believe in some locales they still are.

[rcjoop]

As far as I know the procedure as per post #5 is standard. Also there seem to be two death certificates. The first one is made up by the physician in the hospital or the police doctor.

On basis of this the registrar at the district office issues the more legal one.

The documents are named Thor Ror 20 and Thor Ror 4

Joop

P.S. I admire what you did for your dad

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Here's the process from the U.S. Embassy's viewpoint and www site.

Mac

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service/death-of-a-us-citizen.html

DEATH OF A U.S. CITIZEN

Death is a difficult experience for one's family and friends no matter where it takes place. When death occurs overseas the experience can be even harder, especially if the procedures involved are not clearly understood. American

American Citizen Services (ACS) is ready to assist family and friends in the event of the death of an American Citizen in Thailand. Our services include:

Finding and notifying the Next-of-Kin of the deceased

Acting as a liaison with Thai police, hospital and mortuary authorities

Arranging for the disposition and repatriation of remains

Coordinating administrative and financial requirements

Assisting in the collection and return of personal effects to Next-of-Kin

Issuing a "Report of Death of American Citizen Abroad".

Notification of Next-of-Kin

The Thai authorities inform the Embassy upon the death of an American Citizen anywhere in Thailand. We then find the Next-of-Kin of the deceased and contact that person as soon as possible. There are several important things that the Next-of-Kin must do in conjunction with the ACS office. These include:

Returning a signed and notarized "Affidavit of Next-of-Kin"

Choosing method of disposition of remains

Arranging payment of mortuary and related expenses in Thailand

Arranging return of any personal possessions of the deceased

Affidavit of Next-of-Kin and Letter of Instruction

To act on the family's behalf, the Embassy must have a signed, notarized copy of a document called an “Affidavit of Next-of-Kin.” This form is critical because it shows us who is entitled to make the decisions regarding the deceased. Families should first fax or scan and email us a completed copy, and then mail the original.

Next-of-Kin are established in the following order:

1. Spouse

2. Children

3. Parents

4. Siblings

5. Grandparents

Additionally, Next-of-Kin should fill out and sign a "Letter of Instruction" and fax or scan and email us a copy. This letter will tell us exactly how to handle the deceased's body. You can find blank copies of the affidavit here. Our fax number is 011-66-2-205-4103 (02-205-4103 from inside of Thailand). Our email is [email protected]

Disposition and Repatriation of Remains

When an American Citizen dies in Thailand, the body is usually preserved until an autopsy can be performed and instructions are received from us or the Next-of-Kin regarding disposition of remains. There are normally two options regarding the disposition of remains:

Cremation in Thailand and shipment for internment in the U.S. or other location

Embalming in Thailand and shipment to U.S. or other location for internment or burial

We work with a funeral home here in Bangkok to ensure that the wishes of the Next-of-Kin are carried out as quickly and professionally as possible. HOWEVER, IN MOST CASES EMBALMING AND MORTUARY SERVICES IN THAILAND FALL FAR SHORT OF THE STANDARD EXPECTED IN THE UNITED STATES. A FUNERAL DIRECTOR IN THE U.S. SHOULD BE CONSULTED TO DETERMINE THE ADVISABILITY OF VIEWING THE REMAINS AND OF CONDUCTING AN OPEN CASKET FUNERAL.

Autopsies

Autopsies are normally performed if the deceased has died outside of a hospital or if the cause of death cannot be determined. Autopsies are performed within twenty-fours after the Thai forensic authorities receive the remains. Full autopsy reports are not available for up to three months after the completion of the examination. Autopsies are normally performed if the deceased has died outside of a hospital or if the cause of death cannot be determined. If an autopsy is not required by Thai authorities, it can often be conducted at the request and expense of the next-of-kin. Autopsies are performed within twenty-fours after the Thai forensic authorities receive the remains. Please note that full autopsy results are not available for up to three months after the completion of the examination, and that the autopsy results will likely fall far short of the standard expected in the United States.

Timing

Because of many factors, it is best not to make unchangeable plans and dates for funeral ceremonies in the United States until we can provide a firm timetable for return of remains. It takes time to perform an autopsy, to embalm or cremate the body, to prepare remains for shipment, and to prepare all the necessary documents.

Normally, it will be at least 7 to 10 days from the date of death to arrival of remains in the United States, longer if the remains are to be cremated and mailed to the U.S.

Financial Arrangements

The deceased's family or legal representative must pay all funeral home expenses and shipping costs of the remains and any personal effects. Families without a personal representative present in Thailand normally set up what is called an Overseas Citizens Services Trust with the Department of State. We use the money in this account to pay expenses on behalf of the deceased. We can coordinate all aspects of mortuary services under this arrangement.

Costs listed below are estimates, based on deaths with no unusual circumstances and should be considered for guidance purposes only.

To have remains returned to the U.S. for burial, the cost for embalming and air shipment is approximately $5000.

The cost for cremation and air shipment of ashes is approximately $1500.

By law, the Department of State cannot carry out instructions on the disposition of the remains until we have received the required funds. There are several methods for sending money to the Department of State to set up an Overseas Citizens Services Trust. For instructions on how to do this, please click here.

There will normally be an interval of at least seven days between receipt of funds and shipment of the remains.

After all the mortuary and shipping expenses have been received and paid, we will conduct an itemized accounting of final costs and refund any balance in the trust by a United States Treasury check.

Return of Personal Effects

The Embassy can, in most circumstances, take charge of personal effects and possessions of the deceased if instructed to do so by the Next-of-Kin. This may not be necessary if the deceased has a friend or family member present in Thailand at the time of death.

We will conduct a thorough inventory of any personal effects and send a copy to the Next-of Kin. We can send the family any items they wish to have returned at their expense through the United States Postal Service at the Embassy. Most families decide to donate items of little sentimental or monetary value (clothing, suitcases, kitchenware, etc.) to a local charity in order to avoid the large expense involved in returning these items to the United States. The Embassy will gladly arrange for this charitable donation on the family's behalf.

In cases where the estate of the deceased exceeds $1000, the Embassy will require more detailed legal documents, such as Letters Testamentary or Letters of Administration, prior to releasing money or effects to the Next-of-Kin.

Consular Report of Death of an American Citizen Abroad

The “Consular Report of Death of an American Citizen Abroad” is an official report, in English, that provides the essential facts concerning the death of a U.S. Citizen. It functions in much the same way as a death certificate issued in the United States and can be used to settle bank accounts, insurance policies and other estate matters.

This report can be issued only after the Thai authorities complete their documentation of the death and takes several weeks to be completed. A minimum of 20 certified copies will be sent to the Next-of-Kin. Families may order additional certified copies from the Department of State for a fee.

Families will thus receive up to three sets of documents from the Embassy:

20 copies of "Consular Report of Death of an American Citizen Abroad" (free)

An original Thai Death Certificate with a translated English copy (at the family's expense)

An original Autopsy Report with a translated English copy (at the family's expense, takes 3-4 months to complete)

For more information you may also refer to the following Department of State website: http://www.travel.state.gov/law/family_issues

/death/death_600.html

Contact Us

American Citizen Services (ACS)

U.S. Embassy Bangkok

95 Wireless Road, Bangkok 10330, Thailand

Telephone from outside of Thailand: (66) 2-205-4049

Telephone from inside of Thailand: 02-205-4049

Fax: (66) 2-205-4103

E-mail: [email protected]

Home Page: http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service.html

U.S. Consulate Chiang Mai

387 Witchayanond Road, Chiang Mai 50300, Thailand

Tel: (66) 53-107-700 ext. 7704 or 7738

Fax: (66) 53-252-633

E-mail: [email protected]

Home Page: http://chiangmai.usconsulate.gov/service.html