English Proficiency Ranking Of 44 Countries

[makkam]

I notice England doesn't make the list! Presumably down to illiteracy in schools and massive immigration!!

Your response raises doubts about your own literacy. The thread is about english proficiency not literacy.

[zzaa09]

I wonder who would speak better English... The Thai bar girls working in Pattaya or the academic Thais working in a Bangkok office?

Personally, I reckon...

Fluency? Ability to effectively communicate? Most bargirls.

Accuracy? Maybe a draw verbally though most office workers could probably do better on a written test. (Mind you, there's obviously a wide range of people who are "office workers" - and I'm not sure what you mean by "academic Thais".)

Just goes to show ya, exposure to the language everyday is everything!

[SteeleJoe]

I wonder who would speak better English... The Thai bar girls working in Pattaya or the academic Thais working in a Bangkok office?

Personally, I reckon...

Fluency? Ability to effectively communicate? Most bargirls.

Accuracy? Maybe a draw verbally though most office workers could probably do better on a written test. (Mind you, there's obviously a wide range of people who are "office workers" - and I'm not sure what you mean by "academic Thais".)

Just goes to show ya, exposure to the language everyday is everything!

Too right.

And just to clarify (which I should have done earlier) by "accuracy" I meant using the correct vocabulary and grammar -- which is a whole different thing from fluency and effective communication, innit?

(And one can improve grammar and vocabulary usage, but if the person never gets past the stage of being virtually unable to get the words out at all for fear of speaking incorrectly -- which is so very typical amongst Thais who have a decent foundation of English (like people I work with every day whom I have to use Thai with despite their univesity degrees etc) -- then it's hard to communicate let alone improve on your fluency.

So the bargirls not only have the advantage of daily exposure (heh, heh) they also have the boldness (and absolute necessity) going for them...)

Edited April 12, 2011 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

...every economy has the exact proficiency that employers are willing to pay for.

I don't buy that at all. (If it only it were so simple -- just pay some money and presto chango your workforce can speak English well!)

Admittedly, I'm over-symplyfying. But incentives do matter. And of course, even given sufficient incentives, things won't change overnight. The pay difference between an English-fluent competent engineer and an English-adequate competent engineer would have to be quite substantial for the latter to invest in English education. As things stand, it's more productive and easier to invest in upgrading ones engineering skills, or even schmoozing one's way up the career ladder.

Thais study English for years and years in school. Quite often they take more than one course at language schools (often provided by their employer). This has been so for a long time. But still they so often don't have the skills that their employers want or need. (I personally have known many an otherwise well educated and successful Thai who had hit a ceiling because of his lack of proficiency in English -- and at 35 or older here he/she is working a 50 hour week AND attending classes at a pre-intermediate level, making very slow progress --because indeed it takes quite a while to make real progress especially to the level required)

By age 35, sadly, it may be too late for him/her as by now there would be other demands on their time, like family.

Even in Hongkong, more time and effort is spent teaching English in schools than any other subject, and, as in Thailand, with dismal results. Unlike Asian languages that I'm familiar with, English grammar is notoriously difficult to get a handle on without full immersion learning. I should know, because it wasn't until age eight, soon after arriving in HK, that I learned the English alphabet and went on to struggle for years before finding that English groove. I became fluent in Cantonese long before I became fluent in English. This is mainly because, in HK, I was surrounded by Cantonese speakers, but had little opportunity to engage with English speakers.

Is all that time and resource expended teaching English—ultimately for the most part, ineffectually—a foolish waste? I think so. The stress, boredom and feelings of failure among the majority of kids who fail to learn is palpably damaging and scars them with an inferiority complex that English speakers are somehow smarter simply by virtue of knowing English.

Sure, English proficiency is a desirable goal. But, as you've noted, the current system—whether it be schools or workplace incentives—isn't working. With schools, I don't know the solution but I know that doubling down on what's not working can't be it. In the workplace, I strongly believe that a large enough incentive at the right time (that being fresh graduate hires, who, at that age, have the required time, drive and aptitude) would spur greater English proficiency.

But would it be worth it for employers? I think most employers have decided that it wouldn't. They've decided that good enough is good enough. Of course, that doesn't stop them from complaining ad nauseam and demanding that governments invest more and more money in English education.

I had forgotten about this thread and didn't realize I never responded to Thakkar.

Excellent points. You clearly bright and know your stuff. I doubt there's much if anything I disagree with in the last (and to whatever extent there may be, i doubt I have the wherewithal to argue it).

But what happened to JurgenG on here...no further comment?