Cng New Cars - Lancer Or Abel

[Charis]

Hi,

I'm really a regular city driver, getting from point A to point B. Am considering to buy a new car, just out of frustration negotiating with taxi drivers every day! ;/ they become so picky for destinations at peak hours....

Need some expert advice, i want to buy a car which will be fuel economical. So considering to buy a new car with CNG tank, went to motor show and saw two. The Chevrolet AVEO and the Mitsubishi Lancer. Prices are pretty close... Any experience with either cars? Or should I just buy a second hand with CNG?

Or any bad experience with CNG cars?

Any advice welcome! Thanks!

[aussiebebe]

My wife has an Aveo for three years, not with CNG, and it's only fair I warn you that while it's been super-reliable, it's a rebadged Daewoo with barely passable build quality. If you can get hold of a copy, this month's Chevy Talk magazine is all about the 1.6 Aveo CNG. It has quite an interesting spread about the 5-year/100,000km costs of maintenance for the model totalling ฿28,000. As with all cars except the Tata Xenon, the Aveo wasn't designed for CNG, so the tank just takes up trunk space. Chevy's have piss-poor resale value so if you want a steal look at 'ChevyOK' for bargain cars still under warranty.

[Charis]

My wife has an Aveo for three years, not with CNG, and it's only fair I warn you that while it's been super-reliable, it's a rebadged Daewoo with barely passable build quality. If you can get hold of a copy, this month's Chevy Talk magazine is all about the 1.6 Aveo CNG. It has quite an interesting spread about the 5-year/100,000km costs of maintenance for the model totalling ฿28,000. As with all cars except the Tata Xenon, the Aveo wasn't designed for CNG, so the tank just takes up trunk space. Chevy's have piss-poor resale value so if you want a steal look at 'ChevyOK' for bargain cars still under warranty.

Thanks for that comment. I saw the AVEO and felt the built wasn't great too... The whole back boot cover just looked like an assembled piece. Both the lancer and AVEO are the same, tank taking up trunk space like cabs.... Noted about the resale value....

[aussiebebe]

I was curious so I looked at the prices and Chevy are charging ฿60,000 for the CNG system. (฿649,000 for the 1.6 LSX, and ฿709,000 for the 1.6 LSX with CNG). My wife's car (1.4 LUX without CNG gets around 12kpl on E20 around Bangkok (not highway) which currently retails at ฿34.54/litre. Chevrolet states (claims) that the Aveo 1.6 CNG gets 13km/kg on gas (retailing at ฿8.5/kg) but I think this is combined city/highway and 9km/kg or worse would be more realistic around BK.

Therefore the break-even point would come at around 30,000km which would cost over ฿90,000 on E20 and over ฿30,000 on CNG including the replacement CNG filter at the 20k service for ฿980. This isn't an exact science as you always start the car on E20 every time before switching over to gas and there may be times where you run out of gas before refuelling so I'd guess you recoup the inital outlay between 30-35,000km. I'm surprised by the results, actually as if you stand so save around ฿120,000 by the 100,000km mark (based on current fuel prices), that will easily cover any CNG-related repairs or maintenance, increased insurace premiums, and a nice roof rack due to lack of trunk space.

What's still unclear to me is the extent to which Chevy have modifed the engine or suspension to accomodate this CNG system. I know they altered the guages, seals, pumps and pipes to run efficiently on E20 and prevent premature eroision from the ethanol when they started selling the Aveo E20, but I'm unsure what they've done to the car pior to retrofitting these CNG systems, maybe nothing!

[thaicbr]

There is also the Proton Persona. same size, spec but cheaper to buy. And Proton have a good rep with CNG. The proton taxi's use it in Malaysia.

[katabeachbum]

There is also the Proton Persona. same size, spec but cheaper to buy. And Proton have a good rep with CNG. The proton taxi's use it in Malaysia.

yepp, proton handles CNG well

and Mitsus 1,8 E85 friendly engine should lubricating wise handle CNG well, but I notice cars warrant is reduced from 150.000km on petrol/E85 to 100.000km on CNG, so I suspect combustion temp problems like most CNG cars which leads to burned valves, head and possibly pistons. Still financially sound as repairs for thai made cars are not expensive

But do really drive enough a year to see the need of reduced fuel costs, and do you pass several CNG pumps on your daily trips? Ptt has changed their CNG investemnt strategy, and is presently closing more pumps than opening new. With a CNG range of only 200km, you need several pumps on your daily trips to find CNG at all in the future

[Haooo]

There is also the Proton Persona. same size, spec but cheaper to buy. And Proton have a good rep with CNG. The proton taxi's use it in Malaysia.

Ptt has changed their CNG investemnt strategy, and is presently closing more pumps than opening new.

I never heard such change, can you give me a link for this ?

[katabeachbum]

There is also the Proton Persona. same size, spec but cheaper to buy. And Proton have a good rep with CNG. The proton taxi's use it in Malaysia.

Ptt has changed their CNG investemnt strategy, and is presently closing more pumps than opening new.

I never heard such change, can you give me a link for this ?

Nope, but if you compare present number of pumps/locations with those available 2 years ago, you can count how many have been closed down.

Not to mention the published plans of new pumps to be build 3 years ago compared to reality

CNG pumps are financially sound (for Ptt) only where they serve taxis and trucks, IOW BKK and Highways

I am a huge fan of alternative fuels, but CNG is very expensive to store, pump and transport

[gregb]

There is also the Proton Persona. same size, spec but cheaper to buy. And Proton have a good rep with CNG. The proton taxi's use it in Malaysia.

Ptt has changed their CNG investemnt strategy, and is presently closing more pumps than opening new.

I never heard such change, can you give me a link for this ?

Nope, but if you compare present number of pumps/locations with those available 2 years ago, you can count how many have been closed down.

Not to mention the published plans of new pumps to be build 3 years ago compared to reality

CNG pumps are financially sound (for Ptt) only where they serve taxis and trucks, IOW BKK and Highways

I am a huge fan of alternative fuels, but CNG is very expensive to store, pump and transport

I thoroughly disagree with the contention that pumps are being closed. I have never heard anything more absurd. Just in the last 6 year 4 new stations, yes 4, have been opened in the Rangsit/Pathumthani area. None have EVER closed. With a guaranteed marketing margin of 2 baht/kg, they are very profitable for any station where they are installed. I think you are spreading FUD. If you can't produce these supposed numbers and/or locations where stations are being closed, then I encourage everyone to simply ignore your statements. PTT is still rapidly expanding their CNG infrastructure.

Many people who spend all their time in Central Bangkok also don't realize how prevalent CNG is in the suburbs. There are few stations in the city proper, but get out into the outlying areas and CNG stations proliferate. There are 17 that I know of within 10km of my home, and a new one that is almost ready to go. When CNG first started up, the queues were quite short. Then there was a period of time where I had to queue sometimes for over an hour to fill the car. Now, I rarely have to wait for more than 5 minutes at any of the pumps.

It is true that plans for new stations can change, and buildout has been slower in some areas than originally planned, but this is usually due to financing problems or other unrelated changes, rather than some ridiculous notion that CNG doesn't work. In really rural up country areas there is a population density problem, but in any of the covered areas CNG is quite flexible. And I will say that I love paying 120 baht to fill my tank. I feel sorry for people who insist on paying 1000++ baht for this simply out of fear.

As for CNG being more expensive to store and transport, this is true. Luckily, this is easily offset by the fact that it is a cheaper fuel source and will still be available when oil is in severe decline. PTT, and the Thai government, are well aware of the oil crunch that is coming. I applaud their very forward looking vision in preparing NGV stations to keep this country mobile when oil becomes scarce.

To the OP, I highly recommend you get a CNG vehicle. You will be glad you did. Having owned one for almost 4 years now, I would never buy anything else.

[katabeachbum]

I thoroughly disagree with the contention that pumps are being closed. I have never heard anything more absurd. Just in the last 6 year 4 new stations, yes 4, have been opened in the Rangsit/Pathumthani area. None have EVER closed. With a guaranteed marketing margin of 2 baht/kg, they are very profitable for any station where they are installed. I think you are spreading FUD. If you can't produce these supposed numbers and/or locations where stations are being closed, then I encourage everyone to simply ignore your statements. PTT is still rapidly expanding their CNG infrastructure.

Many people who spend all their time in Central Bangkok also don't realize how prevalent CNG is in the suburbs. There are few stations in the city proper, but get out into the outlying areas and CNG stations proliferate. There are 17 that I know of within 10km of my home, and a new one that is almost ready to go. When CNG first started up, the queues were quite short. Then there was a period of time where I had to queue sometimes for over an hour to fill the car. Now, I rarely have to wait for more than 5 minutes at any of the pumps.

It is true that plans for new stations can change, and buildout has been slower in some areas than originally planned, but this is usually due to financing problems or other unrelated changes, rather than some ridiculous notion that CNG doesn't work. In really rural up country areas there is a population density problem, but in any of the covered areas CNG is quite flexible. And I will say that I love paying 120 baht to fill my tank. I feel sorry for people who insist on paying 1000++ baht for this simply out of fear.

As for CNG being more expensive to store and transport, this is true. Luckily, this is easily offset by the fact that it is a cheaper fuel source and will still be available when oil is in severe decline. PTT, and the Thai government, are well aware of the oil crunch that is coming. I applaud their very forward looking vision in preparing NGV stations to keep this country mobile when oil becomes scarce.

To the OP, I highly recommend you get a CNG vehicle. You will be glad you did. Having owned one for almost 4 years now, I would never buy anything else.

CNG is still not available in more than half of Thailand provinces including Phuket populated with one million Thais. So not according to schedule

agree CNG is usually availabe in BKK, but trucks need thousands of litres tank capacity to cover the rest of the country on CNG. If you try to get a taxi from Suvarnabumi to Phuket today, a LPG taxi will do it for 7.000 baht. However a NGV taxi will need 9-10 k baht for the 1.800 km roundtrip, as more than 1.000 km will be without CNG, IOW running petrol/gasohol. Half the country does not have CNG available. Out of BKK CNG pumps have been closed down and equipent moved to new BKK pumps

NGV works fine, and most engines lifetime is approx half of the same engine running petrol. Good economics. 150-200km range, 20% reduction in performance and loosing half the trunk to fuel tank is acceptable for many

For most, running E85 is a better option tho, but requires much more of car manufactorer to make E85 compatible vehicles

[gregb]

NGV works fine, and most engines lifetime is approx half of the same engine running petrol. Good economics. 150-200km range, 20% reduction in performance and loosing half the trunk to fuel tank is acceptable for many

For most, running E85 is a better option tho, but requires much more of car manufactorer to make E85 compatible vehicles

I understand why if you are in Phuket you don't see a value in NGV. As I've been to Phuket only twice in 10 years that isn't a serious concern for me. My travelling is done within Bangkok and up to Chiang Mai. NGV is fully available everywhere along this route. So unless you are in the south, this isn't really a concern.

And half the lifetime for a CNG engine is simply a lie. There is no truth to it. At best, you would need to replace the head gasket and the valves due to higher temps. This would be a repair of around 20,000 - 30,000 baht. The engine block and the cylinders are not affected at all by the increased temperature.

As for your 20% performance loss, that is also a lie. My car performs better on CNG than on petrol. That 20% is simply a story that the installers say because they don't want endless people coming back to tune the injectors. Properly installed and adjusted, there is no loss of power at all.

As for efficiency 1 kg of CNG has almost twice the energy of 1 liter of LPG. So you need a smaller CNG tank for the same range vs. LPG. My Altis on a single NGV cylinder has a range of more than 350km when full. Please at least try to get your facts straight before spreading unfounded falsehoods.

About the only argument you have made that is true is that you lose trunkspace. But I am constantly amazed how big the trunk of my Altis truly is. Even with the cylinder, I rarely have problems getting 2 baby strollers plus a full load of groceries in the back. I am very happy with the amount of room I have.

And E85 is a joke. The numbers do not add up. You are better off simply purchasing regular gasohol 91. My friend has a Mazda 3 that can take E20. He buys gasohol 91 anyway because the slight difference in price does not make up for the dramatically lower energy content of 10% more ethanol. Ethanol has an energy content only about 66% that of petrol. There is no blend of ethanol sold in Thailand today save gasohol 91 and gasohol 95 where it is cost effective to purchase it.

NGV is by far the cheapest and most useful option for transport for many areas of Thailand. It is less than half the price of LPG on a distance travelled basis. The few drawbacks there are to it are easily rectified, and Thailand has a long term commitment to see it successful.

The only reason to consider any other option is if you drive primarily outside of its coverage area.

[katabeachbum]

NGV works fine, and most engines lifetime is approx half of the same engine running petrol. Good economics. 150-200km range, 20% reduction in performance and loosing half the trunk to fuel tank is acceptable for many

For most, running E85 is a better option tho, but requires much more of car manufactorer to make E85 compatible vehicles

I understand why if you are in Phuket you don't see a value in NGV. As I've been to Phuket only twice in 10 years that isn't a serious concern for me. My travelling is done within Bangkok and up to Chiang Mai. NGV is fully available everywhere along this route. So unless you are in the south, this isn't really a concern.

And half the lifetime for a CNG engine is simply a lie. There is no truth to it. At best, you would need to replace the head gasket and the valves due to higher temps. This would be a repair of around 20,000 - 30,000 baht. The engine block and the cylinders are not affected at all by the increased temperature.

As for your 20% performance loss, that is also a lie. My car performs better on CNG than on petrol. That 20% is simply a story that the installers say because they don't want endless people coming back to tune the injectors. Properly installed and adjusted, there is no loss of power at all.

As for efficiency 1 kg of CNG has almost twice the energy of 1 liter of LPG. So you need a smaller CNG tank for the same range vs. LPG. My Altis on a single NGV cylinder has a range of more than 350km when full. Please at least try to get your facts straight before spreading unfounded falsehoods.

About the only argument you have made that is true is that you lose trunkspace. But I am constantly amazed how big the trunk of my Altis truly is. Even with the cylinder, I rarely have problems getting 2 baby strollers plus a full load of groceries in the back. I am very happy with the amount of room I have.

And E85 is a joke. The numbers do not add up. You are better off simply purchasing regular gasohol 91. My friend has a Mazda 3 that can take E20. He buys gasohol 91 anyway because the slight difference in price does not make up for the dramatically lower energy content of 10% more ethanol. Ethanol has an energy content only about 66% that of petrol. There is no blend of ethanol sold in Thailand today save gasohol 91 and gasohol 95 where it is cost effective to purchase it.

NGV is by far the cheapest and most useful option for transport for many areas of Thailand. It is less than half the price of LPG on a distance travelled basis. The few drawbacks there are to it are easily rectified, and Thailand has a long term commitment to see it successful.

The only reason to consider any other option is if you drive primarily outside of its coverage area.

The low fuel costs is a huge advantage with NGV running CNG. However lets not hide the facts

Half the country does not have CNG available. No problem for a BKK/Chiang Mai/Rayong car, but for a Tata Xenon NGV it is impossible to go from Surat to Phuket r/t, even with an extra tank in the bed, as no fuel available. At all

Premature damages due to the extreme combustion temp is burned valves and heads and often pistons. Toyota Altis factory NGV comes with a modified old design 1,6 engine to cope with this and keep 100.000km warranty. Power on CNG is actually 25% less than 1,6 petrol. Proton seem to manage well. Most LOS sold cars dont last 60.000km running CNG without repair.

Performance loss is well documented by the larger NGV players, Benz and Toyota and as tested by a BKK newspaper we can not mention here.

1 kg of CNG has less than half the energy of 1 kg of LPG, thus a normal car managing petrol 10km/liter needs 20 kg (80 liters) of CNG to cover 200km, while it needs 10 kg (20 liters) of LPG to do the same. A 60 liter brutto LPG tank contains at least 40 liter providing at lest 400km driving. CNG needs 2-300 liter brutto tank to provide same range. Thats more than 2/3 of the trunk in most cars.

If you want to continue discussing pros and cons of NGV running CNG, please present facts. Stating it takes 120 baht to fill up your tank in one post, and it covers 350 km in another post is false info. 15 kg CNG @120 baht may take you 200km. Which is excellent

but only covering half the country

so my initial statement stands, NGV with petrol bi fuel is fine if you pass CNG pumps on your daily driving. Most do not. Most of Thailand is not ready for CNG single fuel.

[culicine]

Kata do you know the empty weight of a 58L lpg tank and what would the weight be when full? I assume that only 80% of the tank can be filled, and I litre is about 0.5 kg. Just need to know the tank weight! In the other thread I was thinking of using a toroidal tank and removing the spare. The dam_n spare weighs almost 17 kg by itself.

[katabeachbum]

Kata do you know the empty weight of a 58L lpg tank and what would the weight be when full? I assume that only 80% of the tank can be filled, and I litre is about 0.5 kg. Just need to know the tank weight! In the other thread I was thinking of using a toroidal tank and removing the spare. The dam_n spare weighs almost 17 kg by itself.

In EU only 80% of the tank can be filled with LPG. I dont recall exact weight of a 58 liter LPG steel cylindertank but would guess no more than 20 kg. Doughnut couple of kg more. EU/CE/E approved tank, weight, manufactorer and date(legal for max 10 years), brutto/netto volume is marked on tank. Fibergass/Epoxy tanks LPG not alowed in EU in vehicles, at least not a decade ago

and yes 1 liter LPG is approx 0,5 Kg depending on temp and Propane/Butane, so ad 23 kg of fuel weight. Can partly be compensated by keeping petrol tank at 1/4 full. As I recall petrol is approx 0,82 Kg/liter and diesel 0,85 Kg/liter

and a safety tips, an LPG/CNG installation is safe for max 10 years. Then all parts must be replaced. Within 5 years all parts should be inspected for corrosion, especially pipes, and all hoses replaced

Explosions have not occured often after these safety measures where introduced in EU

[culicine]

Kata do you know the empty weight of a 58L lpg tank and what would the weight be when full? I assume that only 80% of the tank can be filled, and I litre is about 0.5 kg. Just need to know the tank weight! In the other thread I was thinking of using a toroidal tank and removing the spare. The dam_n spare weighs almost 17 kg by itself.

In EU only 80% of the tank can be filled with LPG. I dont recall exact weight of a 58 liter LPG steel cylindertank but would guess no more than 20 kg. Doughnut couple of kg more. EU/CE/E approved tank, weight, manufactorer and date(legal for max 10 years), brutto/netto volume is marked on tank. Fibergass/Epoxy tanks LPG not alowed in EU in vehicles, at least not a decade ago

and yes 1 liter LPG is approx 0,5 Kg depending on temp and Propane/Butane, so ad 23 kg of fuel weight. Can partly be compensated by keeping petrol tank at 1/4 full. As I recall petrol is approx 0,82 Kg/liter and diesel 0,85 Kg/liter

and a safety tips, an LPG/CNG installation is safe for max 10 years. Then all parts must be replaced. Within 5 years all parts should be inspected for corrosion, especially pipes, and all hoses replaced

Explosions have not occured often after these safety measures where introduced in EU

Thanks I seem to recall seeing the tare weight on a tank - about 19 kg is I recall. Problem I will have is I got lowering springs, so Might have to revert back to the bouncy originals in the rear. Or can i get spring spacers here for them? never seen them though...

[katabeachbum]

Kata do you know the empty weight of a 58L lpg tank and what would the weight be when full? I assume that only 80% of the tank can be filled, and I litre is about 0.5 kg. Just need to know the tank weight! In the other thread I was thinking of using a toroidal tank and removing the spare. The dam_n spare weighs almost 17 kg by itself.

In EU only 80% of the tank can be filled with LPG. I dont recall exact weight of a 58 liter LPG steel cylindertank but would guess no more than 20 kg. Doughnut couple of kg more. EU/CE/E approved tank, weight, manufactorer and date(legal for max 10 years), brutto/netto volume is marked on tank. Fibergass/Epoxy tanks LPG not alowed in EU in vehicles, at least not a decade ago

and yes 1 liter LPG is approx 0,5 Kg depending on temp and Propane/Butane, so ad 23 kg of fuel weight. Can partly be compensated by keeping petrol tank at 1/4 full. As I recall petrol is approx 0,82 Kg/liter and diesel 0,85 Kg/liter

and a safety tips, an LPG/CNG installation is safe for max 10 years. Then all parts must be replaced. Within 5 years all parts should be inspected for corrosion, especially pipes, and all hoses replaced

Explosions have not occured often after these safety measures where introduced in EU

Thanks I seem to recall seeing the tare weight on a tank - about 19 kg is I recall. Problem I will have is I got lowering springs, so Might have to revert back to the bouncy originals in the rear. Or can i get spring spacers here for them? never seen them though...

I would install first to see how suspension works, and then have a spring plate made from 12? mm steel plate if you cant find it ready made. If needed at all

[culicine]

Kata do you know the empty weight of a 58L lpg tank and what would the weight be when full? I assume that only 80% of the tank can be filled, and I litre is about 0.5 kg. Just need to know the tank weight! In the other thread I was thinking of using a toroidal tank and removing the spare. The dam_n spare weighs almost 17 kg by itself.

In EU only 80% of the tank can be filled with LPG. I dont recall exact weight of a 58 liter LPG steel cylindertank but would guess no more than 20 kg. Doughnut couple of kg more. EU/CE/E approved tank, weight, manufactorer and date(legal for max 10 years), brutto/netto volume is marked on tank. Fibergass/Epoxy tanks LPG not alowed in EU in vehicles, at least not a decade ago

and yes 1 liter LPG is approx 0,5 Kg depending on temp and Propane/Butane, so ad 23 kg of fuel weight. Can partly be compensated by keeping petrol tank at 1/4 full. As I recall petrol is approx 0,82 Kg/liter and diesel 0,85 Kg/liter

and a safety tips, an LPG/CNG installation is safe for max 10 years. Then all parts must be replaced. Within 5 years all parts should be inspected for corrosion, especially pipes, and all hoses replaced

Explosions have not occured often after these safety measures where introduced in EU

Thanks I seem to recall seeing the tare weight on a tank - about 19 kg is I recall. Problem I will have is I got lowering springs, so Might have to revert back to the bouncy originals in the rear. Or can i get spring spacers here for them? never seen them though...

I would install first to see how suspension works, and then have a spring plate made from 12? mm steel plate if you cant find it ready made. If needed at all

Thank I just found out that the donut tank is 42L and a whopping 30kg unfilled! And 45kg after filling. I really think I'll get a capsule tank is they have more capacity and are lighter.