Popular Misunderstandings In Thailand.

[fabianfred]

As we know sometimes things are done simply because it has become custom...."it has always been done that way", when perhaps it wasn't done that way in the time of our grandparents, but just within our own memory.

Some people go to ceremonies such as funerals and house-warmings, or even to the temple, and a part of the proceedings involves receiving the five precepts from the monks. and it is sometimes misunderstood that when the monks give the precepts that they are somehow giving a blessing, or casting a spell, if you prefer, which will make the person good.

Precepts are meant to be practiced to be any good. They can be compared to getting a train ticket to travel to Nibbana. One can collect many tickets, every time one receives the precepts from a monk one gets a new one..... but you are never going to get to Nibbana unless you actually use the ticket and get on the train.... by practicing and keeping the precepts.

Another popular misunderstanding is about receiving a blessing from the monks after one has done some act of merit, such as giving alms on Alms-round, bringing offerings into the temple, etc. Many people feel that it is better to get a nice long blessing, perhaps believing that the longer the blessing the more merit they make. Actually, they make merit from the time they first think about doing the act, and the amount of merit is not affected by how long the blessing is, or if they even get a blessing at all. Sometimes one can see people showing slight dissatisfaction if they receive a short blessing when they wanted a long one. This is a wrong attitude which will actually diminish the merit made. Some monks encourage this by trying to give a very long blessing, virtually making things up as they go along, and are often preferred by the donors who have this wrong belief. Actually, donations are meant to be made to the Sangha, the monkhood, not to a particular individual monk. A monk should try to correct these beliefs, but many are afraid of causing the lay-follower to be dissatisfied and go elsewhere with their donations.

We have a monk from New Zealand here at our temple, and he was ordained in Malaysia at a Vipassana centre run by Burmese monks teaching the Mahasi Sayadaw tradition. Because of visa difficulties he decided to come and find a temple to stay in Thailand. The Burmese monks teased him, saying that he had better learn some chanting, because amongst them it was common knowledge that in Thailand monks generally do plenty of chanting, but little meditation practice. It is true, and easy to see why. People are basically lazy, and it is far easier to chant than to do meditation practice. The majority of lay-people and monks in Thailand who do any meditation, practice the concentration techniques or Samatha meditation. But this is not, by itself, the way to Nibanna, and one must eventually change to practicing Vipassana to get to that ultimate goal. But Samatha is easier than Vipassana.... When i asked the abbot why we do an hour of chanting in the morning and evening, but only ten minutes of meditation, when it ought to be the other way around, he said that newcomers would be put off if they couldn't stand it for so long. This means that they are after quantity rather than quality. If one prefers many lay-followers, who bring in many offerings, than a few, by not wanting to upset the many by being stricter with practice...is this correct? Surely a few dedicated serious followers should be encouraged rather than lowering the bar to suit the many lazy ones.

Another bad practice I have come across is that of using meditation as punishment. I have read in one persons blog how a class of school kids were quietened down and punished for being naughty by making them meditate. Also, in my temple some of the monks punish the novices by making them meditate.......I could not conceive of anything more stupid!!!

Surely Nibanna is the goal and we should encourage meditation, which is the way to achieve it, but by using it as a form of punishment we cause people to hate it, in which case they are going to try and avoid it as much as possible.

[camerata]

A few days ago a monk told me it is too difficult to keep all five precepts, so just keep one (he may have said or meant "to begin with"). I've heard this before. I think perhaps the idea is that if one keeps all five "as best as one can" (which is what I do), there's a lot of room for backsliding. However, I don't find it too difficult to keep, say, three precepts 100% and two 80%, and it seems far more effective overall than just keeping one.

[Mirth]

The five precepts or virtues are actually meant for the followers and not the monks onwards. For them, if i remember correctly from my school days, it's more than 200 on top of the initial 5.

[khaowong1]

229 to be precise. Buddhism, in my opinion, is becoming a culture thing. The Thai's do one way, the Laos another, etc. etc. It would be virtually impossible to stop all this stuff in favor of the more strict Buddhist teachings. As most know, who's spent any time in the temple, that the temples now adays, I can only speak for the Thai temples I have stayed at, tend to lean toward anything that brings in money to support them. I see things happen that makes me just walk back to my kuti and sit inside rather than opening my mouth and causing discontent. But, I'm going on my 4th year as a monk now and sometimes, when I come up agains't some practices at the temple I feel is wrong, I just refuse to participate. My abbot understands me and doesn't say anything. I also understand that he sometimes has to go along with these money making enterprises to keep his temple running. When and where do we as monks draw a line in the sand?

[Xangsamhua]

This is a rather sad little thread. Although there's nothing new in it, it expresses the frustrations of serious practitioners like Fred and Khaowong, not only at having to witness the dumbing down of Dhamma and the compromising of the Sangha, but knowing there's nothing much they can do about it. Their personal example and teaching isn't going to have much impact.

Mrs Xangsamhua was recently listening to an interview with the former Chawalit government Health minister Rakkiat Sukthana, now a monk, who was jailed for several years for corruption. Phra Rakkiat recently wrote a book titled ถ้ารู้ธรรมะพระพุทธเจ้า อาตมาคงไม่ติดคุก ("If I had known Dhamma I would not have been jailed"), which he has asked House Speaker Chai Chidchob to distribute free to members of parliament. The title itself is possibly revealing. Rather than "If I had known Dhamma I would not have become corrupt", it focuses on the consequences of error rather than the attachment and delusion that led to it; however, perhaps that is quibbling.

My point is that here we have a man, and he's hardly an exception among Thai political leaders, who was highly educated and able and having reached his forties or fifties attained a position of high responsibility without any knowledge of Dhamma. And this in a Buddhist nation in which the culture and religion are seen and promoted by government at all levels as intertwined. Students are "taught" Buddhist ethics in school and the attainment of "morality" is seen as a priority for primary and secondary students. Yet this man, a lawyer and public leader, did not know even enough Dhamma to avoid being swept up in the venal rewards of office. In fact he grasped at them with abandon.

Of course, officially and culturally sponsored religion nowhere guarantees widespread morality; however the inability of the Sangha in Thailand to offer any resistance to widespread ignorance and immorality is depressing. Partly, it seems that this is due to the Sangha's and individual abbots'/monks' unwillingness to confront and give firm direction.

While not being well-informed about movements other than Dhammakaya and Santi Asoke (in their very different ways) to revitalise and restore authentic Dhamma practice in Thailand, I suspect that mainstream reform and resurgence will emerge from and be led by lay Buddhists. The revolt of disempowered but informed people against their leaders and official representatives is something we're seeing around the world at the moment. In Thailand it's sporadic and inchoate, but may well come together and take coherent form before long.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[Brucenkhamen]

The title itself is possibly revealing. Rather than "If I had known Dhamma I would not have become corrupt", it focuses on the consequences of error rather than the attachment and delusion that led to it; however, perhaps that is quibbling.

It's an important distinction so if that's the case you are right to quibble.

It would indicate a lesson not learned, the problem being identified as putting himself into a position where he could be caught, rather than identifying the problem as being the greed that motivated him in the first place.

I think this dumbing down of dhamma is what passes for dhamma in mainstream Thai society.

Of course, officially and culturally sponsored religion nowhere guarantees widespread morality; however the inability of the Sangha in Thailand to offer any resistance to widespread ignorance and immorality is depressing. Partly, it seems that this is due to the Sangha's and individual abbots'/monks' unwillingness to confront and give firm direction.

There are teachers who confront these attitudes, maybe they are too far and between or they don't do it forcefully enough, and there are monks who live their lives seperate from these cultural attitudes.

I think the problem is Buddhism in Thailand revolves too much around buying ones way to a better rebirth through donations. The attitude seems to be it doesn't matter what I do during the week I can always make up for it by making donations.

Even the Thai people that I know who are good moral people with a respect for Buddhism and the sangha really have no idea what my dhamma/meditaion practise entails or why I spend so much time on it.

I think it's a Thai problem rather than a Buddhist or Theravadin problem. In Burma for example there is a much greater emphasis on lay pople meditating, and few people have the money to try and buy their way to heavan. In Sri Lanka monks tend to be monks for life rather than just the weekend and there is a stronger emphasis on the anagarika (8 precept lay person).

One can only start with ones own heart.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Brucenkhamen

[Xangsamhua]

I think it's a Thai problem rather than a Buddhist or Theravadin problem. In Burma for example there is a much greater emphasis on lay pople meditating, and few people have the money to try and buy their way to heavan. In Sri Lanka monks tend to be monks for life rather than just the weekend and there is a stronger emphasis on the anagarika (8 precept lay person).

One can only start with ones own heart.

Interesting and informative comments. Thank you.

[rockyysdt]

While not being well-informed about movements other than Dhammakaya and Santi Asoke (in their very different ways) to revitalise and restore authentic Dhamma practice in Thailand, I suspect that mainstream reform and resurgence will emerge from and be led by lay Buddhists. The revolt of disempowered but informed people against their leaders and official representatives is something we're seeing around the world at the moment. In Thailand it's sporadic and inchoate, but may well come together and take coherent form before long.

My experience with many I interact with is that most are locked in their ways and beliefs.

You can get them to try practice for a short time, but their negative self talk takes them straight back to their comfort zones of conditioned beliefs and responses.

If you're an American, conditioning is like the deep ruts of the "Oregon trail".

Also, you can forget about anything which involves effort, even amongst professed Buddhists & the ordained.

Effort to change.

Effort to practice.

Perhaps this is the real reason why few become enlightened.

Everyone eventually embrace their well polished and logical reasons and excuses.

Edited April 12, 2011 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

The majority of lay-people and monks in Thailand who do any meditation, practice the concentration techniques or Samatha meditation. But this is not, by itself, the way to Nibanna, and one must eventually change to practicing Vipassana to get to that ultimate goal. But Samatha is easier than Vipassana....

I include both Samatha & Vippasana in my practice.

Interestingly, Zen protagonists concentrate on regular Samatha, which is said to lead to Vipassana as a natural consequence.

The practice of Samatha brings about Mindfulness.

[rockyysdt]

229 to be precise. Buddhism, in my opinion, is becoming a culture thing. The Thai's do one way, the Laos another, etc. etc. It would be virtually impossible to stop all this stuff in favor of the more strict Buddhist teachings. As most know, who's spent any time in the temple, that the temples now adays, I can only speak for the Thai temples I have stayed at, tend to lean toward anything that brings in money to support them. I see things happen that makes me just walk back to my kuti and sit inside rather than opening my mouth and causing discontent. But, I'm going on my 4th year as a monk now and sometimes, when I come up agains't some practices at the temple I feel is wrong, I just refuse to participate. My abbot understands me and doesn't say anything. I also understand that he sometimes has to go along with these money making enterprises to keep his temple running. When and where do we as monks draw a line in the sand?

Does what you see involve the breaking of precepts?

[fabianfred]

Interestingly, Zen protagonists concentrate on regular Samatha, which is said to lead to Vipassana as a natural consequence.

The practice of Samatha brings about Mindfulness.

I'm not trying to find favour for one style or another, just use logic.

Samatha in various forms and with many names is practiced in many religions and by holy men or sadhus or shamans etc. in all ages, whether a Buddha's teachings are alive and known or not. The Buddha himself practiced these techniques before he attained enlightenment.

If it is possible to reach the state of Nibbana by these Samatha styles alone, there would be no need for Buddhas.

It is because the practice of mindfulness, Vipassana, the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, are only known when a Buddha teaches them, that we have the chance to reach Nibbana.

If we start off with Samatha then we must at some stage change over to mindfulness and insight into the three characteristics of conditioned existence.

The Buddha declared profound and not easy to understand,(when heard about.....never mind trying to realise them ourselves) the teachings of non-self, dependant origination, mindfulness.

When asked if one could reach Nibbana by following the teachings of other teachers he replied 'yes, as long as those teaching include the Four Noble truths and the Eightfold Path'...which i suspect non do apart from his own.

I do not believe that Vipassana or mindfulness occurs naturally from Samatha...it needs to be understood to exist and tryed for.

[BoonToong]

This is a rather sad little thread. Although there's nothing new in it, it expresses the frustrations of serious practitioners like Fred and Khaowong, not only at having to witness the dumbing down of Dhamma and the compromising of the Sangha, but knowing there's nothing much they can do about it. Their personal example and teaching isn't going to have much impact.

I disagree. I am glad that Fred and Khaowong and others post on here and hearing their views stimulates my own thoughts on Dhamma.

It has an impact on me and isn't it also possible that someone reading this thread might be the next Buddha?

Edited April 13, 2011 by BoonToong

[rockyysdt]

I do not believe that Vipassana or mindfulness occurs naturally from Samatha...it needs to be understood to exist and tryed for.

Does that mean most Japanese Zen teachers and followers are wasting their time?

I thought Samatha leads to experience and insight allowing natural Vipassana.

[Brucenkhamen]

Does that mean most Japanese Zen teachers and followers are wasting their time?

I thought Samatha leads to experience and insight allowing natural Vipassana.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that Zen is all samatha. Koan practise is about jolting us out of habitual ways of seeing things, Shikantaza is about opening up to the present moment just as it is, these are aspects of insight.

They may approach it differently from vipassana but as far as I can see the objective is the same, like with vipassana practise we can't assume that somebody sitting on a cushion all day they are doing concentration practise.

[lungmi]

American Song of devoted black Christians>

You can't go to heaven in a limousine,

because there is no gasoline.

You can't go to heaven on a motobike,

'cause angels don't like.

With my hilltribe students it's part of English and Buddha Teaching.

[sabaijai]

229 to be precise.

I've only come across lists of 227. What are the additional two? Sorry to stray off topic

[fabianfred]

I think the problem is Buddhism in Thailand revolves too much around buying ones way to a better rebirth through donations. The attitude seems to be it doesn't matter what I do during the week I can always make up for it by making donations.

I think it's a Thai problem rather than a Buddhist or Theravadin problem. In Burma for example there is a much greater emphasis on lay pople meditating, and few people have the money to try and buy their way to heavan.

One can only start with ones own heart.

This is another problem....there are ten different way to make merit but the Thais are often only taught about giving....Dana...by many monks. None of the other types require spending money, but some do require effort and time, and are much more difficult, so earn much more merit, such as chanting and meditation.... and keeping precepts.

[bankei]

I think the problem is Buddhism in Thailand revolves too much around buying ones way to a better rebirth through donations. The attitude seems to be it doesn't matter what I do during the week I can always make up for it by making donations.

I think it's a Thai problem rather than a Buddhist or Theravadin problem. In Burma for example there is a much greater emphasis on lay pople meditating, and few people have the money to try and buy their way to heavan.

One can only start with ones own heart.

This is another problem....there are ten different way to make merit but the Thais are often only taught about giving....Dana...by many monks. None of the other types require spending money, but some do require effort and time, and are much more difficult, so earn much more merit, such as chanting and meditation.... and keeping precepts.

sidenote, I once met a man in Japan on route to the sacred Mount Koya (shingon Buddhism). He said he didn't practice, but that was ok as his wife did - implying the family unit was the one receiving merit and not the individual.

[IMA_FARANG]

I don't want to cause any contraversy on this forum topic... but I suspect that from my previous posts many people know that I am a follower of Zen or Zen Buddhisim.

With respect, this is not criticisim or denigration what others believe.

I just want to say clearly that Zen firmly states that it is not only possible but a goal of Zen adherents to achieve IN THEIR LIFETIME the goal of achieveing the state of Enlightenment, Understanding, Liberation, achieving Nibbana or Nirvana, or "Settling the Great Matter" (a Zen term for Enlightenment) ....whatever term you want to use as a name.

This is because we believe/know/and firmly assert from our experience that our "original nature" is the "Buddha Nature". It is our human illusions and delusions that we adopt as "reality" from birth that tricks us into believeing this false view of "reality" is somehow the true "reality".

Therefore our goal in Zen is to eliminate these false illusions and delusions...and thus see through to our underlying "Buddha nature" clearly.

This is NOT easy. It is a hard thing to obtain...and once obtained it is harder to maintain in this world.

But like it is said...if it is not DIFFICULT it would not be worthwhile, would it?

Not really sure what that has to do with "Popular Misunderstandings in Thailand"...but I just thought I had to say it clearly.

I am fully prepared to say that Zen is not for everyone... maybe only a certain type of person would attempt it... because it is difficult and often reqires a "leap of faith" into a uncertain and unseen "place of refuge".

It just happens to be my way... I guess I'm that particular kind of a fool who wants to "Settle the Great Matter".

With luck, maybe I will.

[rockyysdt]

I am a follower of Zen or Zen Buddhisim.

With respect, this is not criticisim or denigration what others believe.

I just want to say clearly that Zen firmly states that it is not only possible but a goal of Zen adherents to achieve IN THEIR LIFETIME the goal of achieveing the state of Enlightenment, Understanding, Liberation, achieving Nibbana or Nirvana, or "Settling the Great Matter" (a Zen term for Enlightenment) ....whatever term you want to use as a name.

This is because we believe/know/and firmly assert from our experience that our "original nature" is the "Buddha Nature". It is our human illusions and delusions that we adopt as "reality" from birth that tricks us into believeing this false view of "reality" is somehow the true "reality".

Therefore our goal in Zen is to eliminate these false illusions and delusions...and thus see through to our underlying "Buddha nature" clearly.

This is NOT easy. It is a hard thing to obtain...and once obtained it is harder to maintain in this world.

But like it is said...if it is not DIFFICULT it would not be worthwhile, would it?

Not really sure what that has to do with "Popular Misunderstandings in Thailand"...but I just thought I had to say it clearly.

I am fully prepared to say that Zen is not for everyone... maybe only a certain type of person would attempt it... because it is difficult and often reqires a "leap of faith" into a uncertain and unseen "place of refuge".

It just happens to be my way... I guess I'm that particular kind of a fool who wants to "Settle the Great Matter".

With luck, maybe I will.

Hi I.

Can you also put to rest the contention that Zen practice is mainly Samatha or whether it equally involves Vipassana?

I know it can also involve Koan practice but isn't this done during Samatha or concentration practice?

[IMA_FARANG]

[

Hi I.

]

Can you also put to rest the contention that Zen practice is mainly Samatha or whether it equally involves Vipassana?

I know it can also involve Koan practice but isn't this done during Samatha or concentration practice?

------------------

No, but I can give you my opinion.

Both these things, and other pratices, might be used...but that is really without meaning.

Those practices, and others also, are but "expedient means"... a way to get from here to there.

They have no "essential inherent nature", they are but means to an end.

It's like the story of a person who hears of a great place where no one ever suffers, and decides to go there.

His journey is long, difficult, and dangerous.

Finally he arrives at the place where he wants to go. But it is now late and the gates are locked for the night.

There just outside the locked gate are beautiful and valuable gems just laying about.

He knows that night is coming soon. There are wild dog's about that will attack and kill him! He must get inside the gate before it gets dark!

So he picks up a gem, and uses it to bang loudly on the gate. The gate-keeper hears his banging, opns the gate, and the traveler enters.

Now he is inside, and it is beautiful. He is safe from the wild dogs!

Now that he is inside, he throws away the valuable gem he used to bang on the gate to gain entry.

That gem is an "expedient means", no longer of any real value to him.

He just used it as needed to get entry...now it is of no value any longer.

[rockyysdt]

------------------

No, but I can give you my opinion.

Both these things, and other pratices, might be used...but that is really without meaning.

Those practices, and others also, are but "expedient means"... a way to get from here to there.

They have no "essential inherent nature", they are but means to an end.

It's like the story of a person who hears of a great place where no one ever suffers, and decides to go there.

His journey is long, difficult, and dangerous.

Finally he arrives at the place where he wants to go. But it is now late and the gates are locked for the night.

There just outside the locked gate are beautiful and valuable gems just laying about.

He knows that night is coming soon. There are wild dog's about that will attack and kill him! He must get inside the gate before it gets dark!

So he picks up a gem, and uses it to bang loudly on the gate. The gate-keeper hears his banging, opns the gate, and the traveler enters.

Now he is inside, and it is beautiful. He is safe from the wild dogs!

Now that he is inside, he throws away the valuable gem he used to bang on the gate to gain entry.

That gem is an "expedient means", no longer of any real value to him.

He just used it as needed to get entry...now it is of no value any longer.

Can you arrive and pass through the gates without any practices?

If you do need them which practices/combination of practices is optimal according to Zen tradition?

I totally agree with your regarding the worth of any practice in comparison to enlightenment.

Gems are in themselves worthless, but what they help you attain makes them invaluable.

Edited May 10, 2011 by rockyysdt

[Xangsamhua]

------------------

No, but I can give you my opinion.

Both these things, and other pratices, might be used...but that is really without meaning.

Those practices, and others also, are but "expedient means"... a way to get from here to there.

They have no "essential inherent nature", they are but means to an end.

It's like the story of a person who hears of a great place where no one ever suffers, and decides to go there.

His journey is long, difficult, and dangerous.

Finally he arrives at the place where he wants to go. But it is now late and the gates are locked for the night.

There just outside the locked gate are beautiful and valuable gems just laying about.

He knows that night is coming soon. There are wild dog's about that will attack and kill him! He must get inside the gate before it gets dark!

So he picks up a gem, and uses it to bang loudly on the gate. The gate-keeper hears his banging, opns the gate, and the traveler enters.

Now he is inside, and it is beautiful. He is safe from the wild dogs!

Now that he is inside, he throws away the valuable gem he used to bang on the gate to gain entry.

That gem is an "expedient means", no longer of any real value to him.

He just used it as needed to get entry...now it is of no value any longer.

I love your little stories, Ima.

[beautifulthailand99]

The Dalai Lama is reported as saying we don't need more Buddhist but what we do need is more compassion. The Buddha was a rich man having realised the emptiness of things sought a spiritula life - most Thai's are poor seeking to go in the opposite direction. From what I've seen a lot of what passes for Thai Buddhism is superstitious idolatry at best and a corrupt cynical enterprise at worst. That said I have had many spiritual and life enriching encounters in Thai wats as well. As I said to my wife after we had tamboon the monks I'm praying to lose my wealth and find happiness - laughingly she said give it to me and I will visit you every day at the temple and wai you as a Pra. Not ready just yet to make the jump !

[khaowong1]

229 to be precise.

I've only come across lists of 227. What are the additional two? Sorry to stray off topic

Yes, your right, 227. I didn't have on my glasses and hit the wrong button.