Land Encroachers Blamed For Horrific Landslide In Thai South

[webfact]

SPECIAL REPORT

Land encroachers blamed

By PONGPHON SARNSAMAK,

JANJIRA PONGRAI

THE NATION

Clearing of jungle to grow rubber, oil palm aggravated or directly caused landslide that killed at least 40

Rampant encroachment on forestland to carve out rubber and oil palm plantations has been blamed for exacerbating if not directly causing the horrific landslide that killed at least 40 people during the off-season storm in the South last week.

"There are no trees to hold the ground and prevent landslides," Natural Resources and Environment Minister Suwit Khunkitti said yesterday.

Swaths of jungle were levelled to plant rubber trees, which could not keep the ground surface stable and slow down flashfloods, he said. The ministry last year surveyed forest encroachment and counted over 60 landslides in the North and South.

Cutting trees down and planting rubber trees in designated natural preserves had caused landslides and flashfloods in these two regions, he said.

"I instructed forestry officials to arrest people who encroached on forest reserves and destroy rubber trees that had been planted in forest areas," he said.

Teeraphat Prayoonsit, deputy director-general of the Natural Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation Department, said over 500,000 rai of rubber plantations were located in forest conservation areas especially in the northern and southern provinces.

In the South, the para rubber plantations were concentrated on the Banthat Mountain range, Khao Poo Khao Ya National Park and some parts of Nakhon Si Thammarat.

The agency would inspect the forest areas that were damaged by flashfloods and landslides after the floodwaters recede.

Most landslides had occurred on low flatland found to be occupied by large rubber and oil palm plantations, he said.

"We will strictly control the usage of land resources especially the cultivation of lowland as it would be at risk of disasters. We will also examine land ownership in these areas," he said.

The department still needs the cooperation of villagers to reforest the destroyed areas, he said, adding that large plantations should not be allowed in forest conservation areas or reserved areas.

Lertsin Raksaskulwong, director of the Mineral Resources Department's Environmental Geology and Geohazards Bureau, said there were several factors behind the landslides in the southern provinces during the torrential rains last week.

Granite and limestone that are easily damaged during flashfloods are the dominant geologic setting. There is also a lot of high and steep mountains that have been classified as high risk for landslides.

The massive forest encroachment and heavy rains during the past week were the main causes of landslides in the southern provinces, he added.

Anond Snidvongs, director of the Geo-Informatics and Space Technology Development Agency, said the flashfloods and landslides in the southern provinces were caused by extreme rainfall. Most of the mudslides had occurred on slopes, which smashed people's houses and property.

Most of the roads under construction had also blocked the flow of rainwater, he added.

Royol Chitradon, director of the Hydro and Agro Informatics Institute, said most of the rubber trees planted in southern provinces do not have taproots to absorb water and hold the ground to prevent landslides and flashfloods.

Jongrak Songrattanaphan, chief of Krabi's Natural Resources and Environment office, said the landslides in Krabi during past week were caused by the geologic setting and heavy downpours especially in Khaopranombenja National Park.

In Krabi, about 1 million rai of forest areas were classified as forest reserves. About 500,000 rai of the forest areas were distributed to landless people under the Sor Por Kor agrarian reform scheme.

Few forest reserves were entered by local people to plant rubber trees. Only 1,000 rai of forest reserves were encroached on this way a year, he added.

Saran Jaisa-ard, chief of Nakhon Si Thammarat Protected Area Regional Office 5, said severe landslides, which occurred in four areas in the province, were caused by heavy rain and geological features.

The Natural Resources and Environment Ministry recorded over 30 landslides and eight flashfloods in eight southern provinces from March 24-31.

-- The Nation 2011-04-04

[londonthai]

"landslide that killed ... causing the horrific landslide that killed ... prevent landslides ... slow down flashfloods ... counted over 60 landslides ... had caused landslides and flashfloods ... areas that were damaged by flashfloods and landslides after the floodwaters recede ... Most landslides had occurred ... factors behind the landslides ... damaged during flashfloods ... high risk for landslides ... the main causes of landslides ... the flashfloods and landslides in the southern provinces ... Most of the mudslides had occurred ... the ground to prevent landslides and flashfloods ... said the landslides ... said severe landslides... recorded over 30 landslides and eight flashfloods"

it's possible to write a long article with just a few words, just by repeating them in different combinations. Good journalism.

Edited April 4, 2011 by londonthai

[RickBradford]

Or, indeed, to sum up an article quote in a few words:

"We will strictly control the usage of land resources especially the cultivation of lowland as it would be at risk of disasters. We will also examine land ownership in these areas," he said.

Lock ... stable ... door ... after ... horse ... bolted

[animatic]

Or, indeed, to sum up an article quote in a few words:

"We will strictly control the usage of land resources especially the cultivation of lowland as it would be at risk of disasters. We will also examine land ownership in these areas," he said.

Lock ... stable ... door ... after ... horse ... bolted

But it was cultivation of upper land that cause the land slides and the lower land is where the people lived and farmed for food....

So nothing about the plantation guys, but just control the poor residents from living in landslide areas caused by the plantation guys.

[sbk]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

[Mugg]

"landslide that killed ... causing the horrific landslide that killed ... prevent landslides ... slow down flashfloods ... counted over 60 landslides ... had caused landslides and flashfloods ... areas that were damaged by flashfloods and landslides after the floodwaters recede ... Most landslides had occurred ... factors behind the landslides ... damaged during flashfloods ... high risk for landslides ... the main causes of landslides ... the flashfloods and landslides in the southern provinces ... Most of the mudslides had occurred ... the ground to prevent landslides and flashfloods ... said the landslides ... said severe landslides... recorded over 30 landslides and eight flashfloods"

it's possible to write a long article with just a few words, just by repeating them in different combinations. Good journalism.

Apparently not too easy.... easy this is not...Not apparently.....too easy ? NOT!!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Whats wrong with YOU more pertinently??? Yeh, simple, just like that!! just uproot the whole village and move to ...........well, somewhere - where exactly do you suggest they go and who is going to provide them with the money to do this??? Wouldn't it just be fairer and easier to thwart the illegal acts of the greedy, unlicensed plantation owners (fine them heavily in the process) and stop them from carrying out this irresponsible trade that is making the land unstable by tearing up their trees (like they do in the illegal opium poppy fields in Afghanistan and Lebanon for example) where they spray the plants with defoliants or pull them from the ground.

If they HAVE obtained permission to grow palm or rubber tree's in areas that are not now deemed safe or suitable then compensate them and uproot their trees so as to return the land back to what it was before (how mother nature intended).

People like you really irk me when they adopt stupidly simplistic ideas that are unfeasible and blame those that have been wronged and not those that have wronged (both the illegal tree planters and those government officials that so misguidedly gave them permission to grow their trees where they shouldn't have been allowed to) for a nice little back hander, no doubt!!!

Another thing, who would you imagine out of the villagers and 'plantation guys' as you put it, were THERE FIRST!!! Do you think that the villagers encroached on the 'plantation guys' land and plantations????

[exbelg]

thai attitude : blame it on somebody else, as long as you do not blame it on me

WHO OWNS ALL THOSE PLANTATIONS???? yes rich chines thai elite

[sbk]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Whats wrong with YOU more pertinently??? Yeh, simple, just like that!! just uproot the whole village and move to ...........well, somewhere - where exactly do you suggest they go and who is going to provide them with the money to do this??? Wouldn't it just be fairer and easier to thwart the illegal acts of the greedy, unlicensed plantation owners (fine them heavily in the process) and stop them from carrying out this irresponsible trade that is making the land unstable by tearing up their trees (like they do in the illegal opium poppy fields in Afghanistan and Lebanon for example) where they spray the plants with defoliants or pull them from the ground.

If they HAVE obtained permission to grow palm or rubber tree's in areas that are not now deemed safe or suitable then compensate them and uproot their trees so as to return the land back to what it was before (how mother nature intended).

People like you really irk me when they adopt stupidly simplistic ideas that are unfeasible and blame those that have been wronged and not those that have wronged (both the illegal tree planters and those government officials that so misguidedly gave them permission to grow their trees where they shouldn't have been allowed to) for a nice little back hander, no doubt!!!

Another thing, who would you imagine out of the villagers and 'plantation guys' as you put it, were THERE FIRST!!! Do you think that the villagers encroached on the 'plantation guys' land and plantations????

Apparently i should have used a smiley as my point was completely and totally missed. It was an attempt at irony/sarcasm.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Whats wrong with YOU more pertinently??? Yeh, simple, just like that!! just uproot the whole village and move to ...........well, somewhere - where exactly do you suggest they go and who is going to provide them with the money to do this??? Wouldn't it just be fairer and easier to thwart the illegal acts of the greedy, unlicensed plantation owners (fine them heavily in the process) and stop them from carrying out this irresponsible trade that is making the land unstable by tearing up their trees (like they do in the illegal opium poppy fields in Afghanistan and Lebanon for example) where they spray the plants with defoliants or pull them from the ground.

If they HAVE obtained permission to grow palm or rubber tree's in areas that are not now deemed safe or suitable then compensate them and uproot their trees so as to return the land back to what it was before (how mother nature intended).

People like you really irk me when they adopt stupidly simplistic ideas that are unfeasible and blame those that have been wronged and not those that have wronged (both the illegal tree planters and those government officials that so misguidedly gave them permission to grow their trees where they shouldn't have been allowed to) for a nice little back hander, no doubt!!!

Another thing, who would you imagine out of the villagers and 'plantation guys' as you put it, were THERE FIRST!!! Do you think that the villagers encroached on the 'plantation guys' land and plantations????

Apparently i should have used a smiley as my point was completely and totally missed. It was an attempt at irony/sarcasm.

OK - I can see this now!!! No offence meant by my retort as I can see that we are both actually singing from the same hymn sheet, but I was singing the wrong hymn!!!!

[scotbeve]

Oh yes... the land some hi-sos and politicians have encroached upon.... This govt doing it's "I'll huff and I'll puff until you pay me off...." routine again. This will go as far as the bill asking for land limits did (or in this instance - did not)!!!

[Pi Sek]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Whats wrong with YOU more pertinently??? Yeh, simple, just like that!! just uproot the whole village and move to ...........well, somewhere - where exactly do you suggest they go and who is going to provide them with the money to do this??? Wouldn't it just be fairer and easier to thwart the illegal acts of the greedy, unlicensed plantation owners (fine them heavily in the process) and stop them from carrying out this irresponsible trade that is making the land unstable by tearing up their trees (like they do in the illegal opium poppy fields in Afghanistan and Lebanon for example) where they spray the plants with defoliants or pull them from the ground.

If they HAVE obtained permission to grow palm or rubber tree's in areas that are not now deemed safe or suitable then compensate them and uproot their trees so as to return the land back to what it was before (how mother nature intended).

People like you really irk me when they adopt stupidly simplistic ideas that are unfeasible and blame those that have been wronged and not those that have wronged (both the illegal tree planters and those government officials that so misguidedly gave them permission to grow their trees where they shouldn't have been allowed to) for a nice little back hander, no doubt!!!

Another thing, who would you imagine out of the villagers and 'plantation guys' as you put it, were THERE FIRST!!! Do you think that the villagers encroached on the 'plantation guys' land and plantations????

Apparently i should have used a smiley as my point was completely and totally missed. It was an attempt at irony/sarcasm.

My guess is SICHONSTEVE lives in Sichon and is quite pissed off with the major damage that Sichon and Tha Sala saw. So, maybe he deserves a little sensitivity. I don't see how your post can be construed as anything other than sarcasm, but someone did - so I suppose the smiley would have been a great idea

[sbk]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Whats wrong with YOU more pertinently??? Yeh, simple, just like that!! just uproot the whole village and move to ...........well, somewhere - where exactly do you suggest they go and who is going to provide them with the money to do this??? Wouldn't it just be fairer and easier to thwart the illegal acts of the greedy, unlicensed plantation owners (fine them heavily in the process) and stop them from carrying out this irresponsible trade that is making the land unstable by tearing up their trees (like they do in the illegal opium poppy fields in Afghanistan and Lebanon for example) where they spray the plants with defoliants or pull them from the ground.

If they HAVE obtained permission to grow palm or rubber tree's in areas that are not now deemed safe or suitable then compensate them and uproot their trees so as to return the land back to what it was before (how mother nature intended).

People like you really irk me when they adopt stupidly simplistic ideas that are unfeasible and blame those that have been wronged and not those that have wronged (both the illegal tree planters and those government officials that so misguidedly gave them permission to grow their trees where they shouldn't have been allowed to) for a nice little back hander, no doubt!!!

Another thing, who would you imagine out of the villagers and 'plantation guys' as you put it, were THERE FIRST!!! Do you think that the villagers encroached on the 'plantation guys' land and plantations????

Apparently i should have used a smiley as my point was completely and totally missed. It was an attempt at irony/sarcasm.

OK - I can see this now!!! No offence meant by my retort as I can see that we are both actually singing from the same hymn sheet, but I was singing the wrong hymn!!!!

Indeed we are, no worries, I totally understand your high feelings as I share them myself. Development without thought of consequences to innocent people is a major issue in Thailand.

[NanaFoods]

m'hmm. .... way to be "proactive" guys.

Sounds like another episode of "Crackdown Theater" in the making.... watch it only on SFN (Save Face Network). ....Sponsored by "Incompetence", the adult diapers, for when SHTF.

[scotbeve]

Yes folks, I agree, a bit more sensitivity and less levity here please. Flooding will continue and the north (where I live) will be next come the (possible) heavy rains. As for illegally appropriated land, I think that the numbers given above for parawood plantations in Chiang Rai province speak volumes. Over 30 yrs. I've seen the destruction of woodlands and rain catchment areas up in the north here. What did I do??? Planted teak plantations and rubber plantations ON TITLED LAND!!! The bloody govt has made it dam_n near impossible - with all the red tape involved - for LEGAL plantation owners to get by. Has anyone had the displeasure of paying the sales tax for teak wood cut at a mere pittance of price (per cube)??? Where da eff' does the tax money go??? And still land rape continues as well as illegal timber EASILY brought into the country through Burmese and Laotian borders!!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Whats wrong with YOU more pertinently??? Yeh, simple, just like that!! just uproot the whole village and move to ...........well, somewhere - where exactly do you suggest they go and who is going to provide them with the money to do this??? Wouldn't it just be fairer and easier to thwart the illegal acts of the greedy, unlicensed plantation owners (fine them heavily in the process) and stop them from carrying out this irresponsible trade that is making the land unstable by tearing up their trees (like they do in the illegal opium poppy fields in Afghanistan and Lebanon for example) where they spray the plants with defoliants or pull them from the ground.

If they HAVE obtained permission to grow palm or rubber tree's in areas that are not now deemed safe or suitable then compensate them and uproot their trees so as to return the land back to what it was before (how mother nature intended).

People like you really irk me when they adopt stupidly simplistic ideas that are unfeasible and blame those that have been wronged and not those that have wronged (both the illegal tree planters and those government officials that so misguidedly gave them permission to grow their trees where they shouldn't have been allowed to) for a nice little back hander, no doubt!!!

Another thing, who would you imagine out of the villagers and 'plantation guys' as you put it, were THERE FIRST!!! Do you think that the villagers encroached on the 'plantation guys' land and plantations????

Apparently i should have used a smiley as my point was completely and totally missed. It was an attempt at irony/sarcasm.

My guess is SICHONSTEVE lives in Sichon and is quite pissed off with the major damage that Sichon and Tha Sala saw. So, maybe he deserves a little sensitivity. I don't see how your post can be construed as anything other than sarcasm, but someone did - so I suppose the smiley would have been a great idea

AMAZINGLY ENOUGH I do live in Sichon - who told you? here's a trickier one - can you guess my name???? Seriously though, it has been pretty traumatic here with Nakhonsithammarat being affected more so than any other province in Southern Thailand with respect to the number of deaths seen and damage to land and property inflicted.

I've redressed the situation with SBK (hopefully) and feel a tad silly in failing to see the sarcasm/humour contained in his words so blame the fact that he hadn't thought to include a smiley and as you so candidly point out, it is a rather sensitive subject in this neck-of-the-woods and I did blow a bit of a gasket when I read his (what I thought at the time in my heightened, emotionally tinged state of mind) rather pathetic and uninformed words in blaming the villagers for all the problems.

Excuse enough?????

[travelmann]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Of course if hilltop land wasnt owned by ??????? they could build on the hills and farm the valleys ................but OF COURSE we cant discuss that can we.

[scotbeve]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Of course if hilltop land wasnt owned by ??????? they could build on the hills and farm the valleys ................but OF COURSE we cant discuss that can we.

Of course not.... Or it's the BKK Hilton!!!

[sbk]

Actually, alot of land encroachment is done on national forest land.

[geriatrickid]

Oh yes... the land some hi-sos and politicians have encroached upon.... This govt doing it's "I'll huff and I'll puff until you pay me off...." routine again. This will go as far as the bill asking for land limits did (or in this instance - did not)!!!

Ask PM Abhisit's government why 40 people were allowed to die. The current government had the means to do something to prevent the tragedy, but it did not. Will PM Abhisit and his cabinet ministers be held responsible? Will the local officials that did not enforce the law be held accountable? Will the plantation owners be charged with manslaughter type offences and be held liable for the landslide damages? The answers I believe are No, No, and No.

[billd766]

Oh yes... the land some hi-sos and politicians have encroached upon.... This govt doing it's "I'll huff and I'll puff until you pay me off...." routine again. This will go as far as the bill asking for land limits did (or in this instance - did not)!!!

Ask PM Abhisit's government why 40 people were allowed to die. The current government had the means to do something to prevent the tragedy, but it did not. Will PM Abhisit and his cabinet ministers be held responsible? Will the local officials that did not enforce the law be held accountable? Will the plantation owners be charged with manslaughter type offences and be held liable for the landslide damages? The answers I believe are No, No, and No.

And while you are asking the government why 40 people were allowed to die please also ask how long the plantations have been there. If it is more than a couple of years it would not have been this government but a previous one.

And then ask the PM why he has not visited every one of the 77,000 tambons in the country.

The country is not really run in the long term by any one brand of politician but by the local and national civil servants and THEY are the ones who should answer your question.

They are the ones who can actually slow down and catch corruption as they are on the ground in place.

Any prime minister should be fully involved in running the country together with the party in power at the time and the opposition should be helping the country by running checks and balances unlike the current situation.

[scotbeve]

Oh yes... the land some hi-sos and politicians have encroached upon.... This govt doing it's "I'll huff and I'll puff until you pay me off...." routine again. This will go as far as the bill asking for land limits did (or in this instance - did not)!!!

Ask PM Abhisit's government why 40 people were allowed to die. The current government had the means to do something to prevent the tragedy, but it did not. Will PM Abhisit and his cabinet ministers be held responsible? Will the local officials that did not enforce the law be held accountable? Will the plantation owners be charged with manslaughter type offences and be held liable for the landslide damages? The answers I believe are No, No, and No.

And while you are asking the government why 40 people were allowed to die please also ask how long the plantations have been there. If it is more than a couple of years it would not have been this government but a previous one.

And then ask the PM why he has not visited every one of the 77,000 tambons in the country.

The country is not really run in the long term by any one brand of politician but by the local and national civil servants and THEY are the ones who should answer your question.

They are the ones who can actually slow down and catch corruption as they are on the ground in place.

Any prime minister should be fully involved in running the country together with the party in power at the time and the opposition should be helping the country by running checks and balances unlike the current situation.

One point Bill..... you said, The country is not really run in the long term by any one brand of politician but by the local and national civil servants and THEY are the ones who should answer your question.

They are the ones who can actually slow down and catch corruption as they are on the ground in place.

A noble idea of integrity but sometimes, they are the ones causing more damage than not.... sad but true...

[geriatrickid]

Oh yes... the land some hi-sos and politicians have encroached upon.... This govt doing it's "I'll huff and I'll puff until you pay me off...." routine again. This will go as far as the bill asking for land limits did (or in this instance - did not)!!!

Ask PM Abhisit's government why 40 people were allowed to die. The current government had the means to do something to prevent the tragedy, but it did not. Will PM Abhisit and his cabinet ministers be held responsible? Will the local officials that did not enforce the law be held accountable? Will the plantation owners be charged with manslaughter type offences and be held liable for the landslide damages? The answers I believe are No, No, and No.

And while you are asking the government why 40 people were allowed to die please also ask how long the plantations have been there. If it is more than a couple of years it would not have been this government but a previous one.

And then ask the PM why he has not visited every one of the 77,000 tambons in the country.

The country is not really run in the long term by any one brand of politician but by the local and national civil servants and THEY are the ones who should answer your question.

They are the ones who can actually slow down and catch corruption as they are on the ground in place.

Any prime minister should be fully involved in running the country together with the party in power at the time and the opposition should be helping the country by running checks and balances unlike the current situation.

bild, you answer the question yourself. I could understand if the plantations were a one off, but there is a problem throughout Thailand with this type of encroachment. Are you aware of a national strategy to deal with the problem? Can you cite one clear enforcement effort that sent a strong message? It's easy to say, oh well, it happened in the past. Abhisit came in with claims of clean government. He was going to stop the corruption seen in previous administrations. And yet, there has been no discernible impact of this administration. His administration has had enough time to make a clear policy decision. With DPM Suthep's past history, is it unreasonable to question the government's position on this important matter?I certainly don't expect the PM to visit every Tambon, but there are several districts with serious encroachment issues. He could have visited one district and said stop and made an enforcement effort. He did not. The PM's cabinet has a strong influence in the appointment of regional senior civil servants. How come the government didn't support the officials in the regions trying to make a difference? There are many responsible Thais who care, that want a positive change, but they are blocked by people at the top. PM Abhisit could have given these officials hope. He failed. I believe that his failure to act, to have a national strategy to protect these important lands allowed criminals to have their way and to indirectly kill Thai citizens. He can still do something about this by ensuring the plantation owners are caught and prosecuted. Will he do that? I don't think so.

[zthyadat]

"landslide that killed ... causing the horrific landslide that killed ... prevent landslides ... slow down flashfloods ... counted over 60 landslides ... had caused landslides and flashfloods ... areas that were damaged by flashfloods and landslides after the floodwaters recede ... Most landslides had occurred ... factors behind the landslides ... damaged during flashfloods ... high risk for landslides ... the main causes of landslides ... the flashfloods and landslides in the southern provinces ... Most of the mudslides had occurred ... the ground to prevent landslides and flashfloods ... said the landslides ... said severe landslides... recorded over 30 landslides and eight flashfloods"

it's possible to write a long article with just a few words, just by repeating them in different combinations. Good journalism.

It is due to the Nation's shortage of copy editors. Some online stuff even goes up untouched. As a former Nation editor, I can assure you that this is how many pieces look when the foreign copy-eds first get hold of them, before cutting them down to half their original length (which can really upset the writers). The Thai writing style works in spirals, ideally ever decreasing ones, but usually not. It is a tricky thing to manage. In the right hands, this diplomatic style can say a lot without seeming to say anything in particular - there have been some annual speeches in Thailand that are excellent examples - though it still doesn't work in English where we just bluntly get to the point. Among other things, this orbital approach enables (though not in the above example) criticising a person without falling afoul of the libel laws. Just say the same thing with slight variations over and over until the reader sees where the finger is pointing.

[animatic]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

[animatic]

sbk' timestamp=

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Whats wrong with YOU more pertinently??? Yeh, simple, just like that!! just uproot the whole village and move to ...........well, somewhere - where exactly do you suggest they go and who is going to provide them with the money to do this??? Wouldn't it just be fairer and easier to thwart the illegal acts of the greedy, unlicensed plantation owners (fine them heavily in the process) and stop them from carrying out this irresponsible trade that is making the land unstable by tearing up their trees (like they do in the illegal opium poppy fields in Afghanistan and Lebanon for example) where they spray the plants with defoliants or pull them from the ground.

If they HAVE obtained permission to grow palm or rubber tree's in areas that are not now deemed safe or suitable then compensate them and uproot their trees so as to return the land back to what it was before (how mother nature intended).

People like you really irk me when they adopt stupidly simplistic ideas that are unfeasible and blame those that have been wronged and not those that have wronged (both the illegal tree planters and those government officials that so misguidedly gave them permission to grow their trees where they shouldn't have been allowed to) for a nice little back hander, no doubt!!!

Another thing, who would you imagine out of the villagers and 'plantation guys' as you put it, were THERE FIRST!!! Do you think that the villagers encroached on the 'plantation guys' land and plantations????

Apparently i should have used a smiley as my point was completely and totally missed. It was an attempt at irony/sarcasm.

OK - I can see this now!!! No offence meant by my retort as I can see that we are both actually singing from the same hymn sheet, but I was singing the wrong hymn!!!!

Indeed we are, no worries, I totally understand your high feelings as I share them myself. Development without thought of consequences to innocent people is a major issue in Thailand.

Apparently we have some ironically challenged here.

I saw it for what it was in relation to my post above it.

Well done brava etc.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Oh yes... the land some hi-sos and politicians have encroached upon.... This govt doing it's "I'll huff and I'll puff until you pay me off...." routine again. This will go as far as the bill asking for land limits did (or in this instance - did not)!!!

Ask PM Abhisit's government why 40 people were allowed to die. The current government had the means to do something to prevent the tragedy, but it did not. Will PM Abhisit and his cabinet ministers be held responsible? Will the local officials that did not enforce the law be held accountable? Will the plantation owners be charged with manslaughter type offences and be held liable for the landslide damages? The answers I believe are No, No, and No.

ALL Thai governments in recent political history can be held responsible for 'loose law enforcement" particularly relating to the poor (non) regulation enforcement of plantation developments in the affected areas. It should be noted that many of these such plantations lie (illegaly) on forestry land and it should be a high priority of the next government to deal with these illicit plantations and to punish the owners in the appropriate way.

Your absurd implication that "PM Abhisit's government has allowed 40 people to die" is preposterous and totally out of order!!! A natural disaster is just that, with the devasting consequences it brings with it. They hit, without first announcing themselves to an unsuspecting world.

It could be argued that unlike earthquakes (and associated tsunami's) the weather can at least be predicted fairly accurately several days in advance - but even so, please can you enlighten me just as to what the government is supposed to do to prevent or limit the resultant devastation of a week's continuous, torrential rain???? I expect that you're answer to this question will be a big fat categorical No!!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

Oh yes... the land some hi-sos and politicians have encroached upon.... This govt doing it's "I'll huff and I'll puff until you pay me off...." routine again. This will go as far as the bill asking for land limits did (or in this instance - did not)!!!

Ask PM Abhisit's government why 40 people were allowed to die. The current government had the means to do something to prevent the tragedy, but it did not. Will PM Abhisit and his cabinet ministers be held responsible? Will the local officials that did not enforce the law be held accountable? Will the plantation owners be charged with manslaughter type offences and be held liable for the landslide damages? The answers I believe are No, No, and No.

And while you are asking the government why 40 people were allowed to die please also ask how long the plantations have been there. If it is more than a couple of years it would not have been this government but a previous one.

And then ask the PM why he has not visited every one of the 77,000 tambons in the country.

The country is not really run in the long term by any one brand of politician but by the local and national civil servants and THEY are the ones who should answer your question.

They are the ones who can actually slow down and catch corruption as they are on the ground in place.

Any prime minister should be fully involved in running the country together with the party in power at the time and the opposition should be helping the country by running checks and balances unlike the current situation.

Well stated!!! Totally agree with you on this take on events.

Edited April 4, 2011 by SICHONSTEVE

[geriatrickid]

ALL Thai governments in recent political history can be held responsible for 'loose law enforcement" particularly relating to the poor (non) regulation enforcement of plantation developments in the affected areas. It should be noted that many of these such plantations lie (illegaly) on forestry land and it should be a high priority of the next government to deal with these illicit plantations and to punish the owners in the appropriate way.

Your absurd implication that "PM Abhisit's government has allowed 40 people to die" is preposterous and totally out of order!!! A natural disaster is just that, with the devasting consequences it brings with it. They hit, without first announcing themselves to an unsuspecting world.

It could be argued that unlike earthquakes (and associated tsunami's) the weather can at least be predicted fairly accurately several days in advance - but even so, please can you enlighten me just as to what the government is supposed to do to prevent or limit the resultant devastation of a week's continuous, torrential rain???? I expect that you're answer to this question will be a big fat categorical No!!!

Let's look at your statement(s);

ALL Thai governments in recent political history can be held responsible for 'loose law enforcement" particularly relating to the poor (non) regulation enforcement of plantation developments in the affected areas.

Not really. The national policy was set in 1962 and Thailand did a decent job in the first decade of enforcing the policy compared to its regional neighbours. Don't assume that it has always been like this. However, does dereliction of duty in the past excuse the current government's failure to have acted? There were reports after reports made. Are you now saying that the minister responsible for the forests was oblivious to these reports? Is your explanation for allowing the illegal land development that it was an acceptable activity because it happened before? In previous years, it was acceptable to beat one's wife. Today, we do not allow such activity.

It should be noted that many of these such plantations lie (illegaly) on forestry land and it should be a high priority of the next government to deal with these illicit plantations and to punish the owners in the appropriate way.

Ok, but why couldn't the current government have acted?

Your absurd implication that "PM Abhisit's government has allowed 40 people to die" is preposterous and totally out of order!!! A natural disaster is just that, with the devasting consequences it brings with it. They hit, without first announcing themselves to an unsuspecting world.

It could be argued that unlike earthquakes (and associated tsunami's) the weather can at least be predicted fairly accurately several days in advance - but even so, please can you enlighten me just as to what the government is supposed to do to prevent or limit the resultant devastation of a week's continuous, torrential rain???? I expect that you're answer to this question will be a big fat categorical No!!!

Fact: The natural vegetation was removed in an illegal manner.

Fact: The natural vegetation would have acted to retain the soil. The replacement vegetation did not have the same root structure or root density and weaving to hold the soil.

Fact: No enforcement activities were made to remove the illegal vegetation and to restore the natural habitat that would have mitigated the loss of life when the saturated land slid away.

You are dismissing the landslide as exclusively a natural disaster. It was not. The land gave way because of deforestation. The people that illegally removed the natural vegetation bear responsibility. The local government officials that did not enforce the law protecting national lands bear responsibility. The national government baers responsibility for not overseeing its officials and for not responding to the documented evidence of the activities. I direct your attention to the reports prsented by diverse groups such as;

- Plant Conservation and Protection Division; Department of National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Conservation, Ministry of Natural Resources and Environment

- The WWF (I like the part in the report on the encroachment in Koh Nheuk that stated; "Government officials are accused of themselves encroaching on protected land. The signs along the road depicting the skull and crossbones do not warn of the presence of landmines as they are intended to, but have been posted by unscrupulous soldiers to deter settlers from taking land these officers have staked out for themselves" This section has been excerpted on its project website.

- The Thai based group promoting a restoration of mangroves.

There are many other reputable groups that warned of the possible catastrophes from forest encroachment, whether it be dangerous flooding in coastal areas or in landslides in the hills.What is absurd here is that the majority of responsible experts all warned of the dangers of encroachment. Yet, the government which had a mandate and a duty to enforce the law did not act on these reports. The baht stops somewhere, and ultimately it is at the desk of the man in charge. The minister for this portfolio is primarily responsible and his boss, the PM is responsible for the minister. Just because this is Thailand does not mean that officials cannot be held responsible for their failure to act. This is a tragedy that could have been mitigated had the minister(s) listened to the Thai ministry officials and experts. I don't care if past governments didn't do anything. The fact of the matter is that it is the Abhisit led government that was in charge for the past two years and should have enforced the laws in respect to national lands which come under the control of the national government.

[gbswales]

Indeed, those lowland farmers should know to move their villages once the plantation guys illegally strip the forest. Whats wrong with them, eh?

Whats wrong with YOU more pertinently??? Yeh, simple, just like that!! just uproot the whole village and move to ...........well, somewhere - where exactly do you suggest they go and who is going to provide them with the money to do this??? Wouldn't it just be fairer and easier to thwart the illegal acts of the greedy, unlicensed plantation owners (fine them heavily in the process) and stop them from carrying out this irresponsible trade that is making the land unstable by tearing up their trees (like they do in the illegal opium poppy fields in Afghanistan and Lebanon for example) where they spray the plants with defoliants or pull them from the ground.

If they HAVE obtained permission to grow palm or rubber tree's in areas that are not now deemed safe or suitable then compensate them and uproot their trees so as to return the land back to what it was before (how mother nature intended).

People like you really irk me when they adopt stupidly simplistic ideas that are unfeasible and blame those that have been wronged and not those that have wronged (both the illegal tree planters and those government officials that so misguidedly gave them permission to grow their trees where they shouldn't have been allowed to) for a nice little back hander, no doubt!!!

Another thing, who would you imagine out of the villagers and 'plantation guys' as you put it, were THERE FIRST!!! Do you think that the villagers encroached on the 'plantation guys' land and plantations????

I think if you read sbk's post again you will see that it was cynical - he was not actually suggesting that as a solution!!