Do We (Westerners) Still Matter ?

[1219patrickm]

I don't go to Thailand for western culture. If I wanted that, I would stay home and not travel there. Who cares what they think. The one thing that I like about Thailand is that farang can pretty much do what they want and the Thai's don't care. Or if the do, who knows what they are thinking and I really don't care.

[Suradit]

. In the West, science holds sway, and all new things are rigorously tested.

Right.

Here's a frightening quote: "Drug disasters are literally built into the current system of drug testing and approvals in the United States. Recent changes in the system have only increased the proportion of new drugs with serious risks."

Those words come from Donald Light, a sociologist who presented his paper, "Institutional Foundations of the Vioxx Disaster," at the American Sociological Association's meeting in August 2008. The anti-inflammatory (Cox-2 inhibbitor) drug Vioxx was pulled from the market in 2004 because of increased risk of heart attack, stroke and other serious health problems. The FDA estimates that the drug caused nearly 28,000 heart attacks and sudden cardiac deaths.

Light's paper criticizes 3 major aspects of the drug testing and approval process.

1. Comparing new drugs to placebos instead of to drugs currently in use. He found that only 1 in 7 new drugs is better than existing drugs. Meanwhile, 2 in 7 new drugs cause serious side effects. That means, compared to older medications, new drugs are twice as likely to hurt as they are to help.

2. Drug trials flawed because of who's chosen. Light says pharmaceutical companies often minimize side effects in trials by chosing people who are healthier than those who will actually take the drug. He says they exclude people who are older, less affluent, or have multiple health problems. The less healthy people who end up taking them are more likely to have adverse reactions than people in the studies.

3. The FDA is financially dependent on the agency it regulates. Light says the FDA is seriously under funded, which has made it depend on drug-company funding in order to function at all. In return for funding, the industry expects faster reviews, and Light says faster reviews have more than tripled the number of black box warnings (the highest level of side effect warnings) or withdrawals from the market.

"Based on our current system, the designation of 'safe and effective' on today's new drugs could be replaced with, 'apparently safe based on incomplete information, and more effective than a placebo.'"

http://chronicfatigue.about.com/b/2008/08/14/the-fda-drug-disasters-are-we-headed-for-more.htm

[anterian]

The more I integrate into Thai culture the more I realise there isn't one, it is that simple. It is a hybridised mixture of many cultures Asian and western, just look at Songkran, originally and still theoretically a religious festival but now a water fight, sex fest, alcoholic carnival and major tourist attraction.

[zzaa09]

The style of MEDICINE most widely practiced in Thailand -- WESTERN.

That's why they are sicker than the days of yore.

Oh really? It couldn't be the higher fat higher sugar diets, the horrific pollution, the urban stress, the drug and alcohol abuse, the vehicular accidents, the chemical laden foods?

Yes. All introduced by the civilised Foreign Devil. Thanks Farang....for enriching our lives. :jap:

[Ulysses G.]

Of course it is all someone else's fault. No personal responsibility.

[StreetCowboy]

. In the West, science holds sway, and all new things are rigorously tested.

Right.

Here's a frightening quote: "Drug disasters are literally built into the current system of drug testing and approvals in the United States. Recent changes in the system have only increased the proportion of new drugs with serious risks."

Those words come from Donald Light, a sociologist who presented his paper, "Institutional Foundations of the Vioxx Disaster," at the American Sociological Association's meeting in August 2008. The anti-inflammatory (Cox-2 inhibbitor) drug Vioxx was pulled from the market in 2004 because of increased risk of heart attack, stroke and other serious health problems. The FDA estimates that the drug caused nearly 28,000 heart attacks and sudden cardiac deaths.

Light's paper criticizes 3 major aspects of the drug testing and approval process.

1. Comparing new drugs to placebos instead of to drugs currently in use. He found that only 1 in 7 new drugs is better than existing drugs. Meanwhile, 2 in 7 new drugs cause serious side effects. That means, compared to older medications, new drugs are twice as likely to hurt as they are to help.

2. Drug trials flawed because of who's chosen. Light says pharmaceutical companies often minimize side effects in trials by chosing people who are healthier than those who will actually take the drug. He says they exclude people who are older, less affluent, or have multiple health problems. The less healthy people who end up taking them are more likely to have adverse reactions than people in the studies.

3. The FDA is financially dependent on the agency it regulates. Light says the FDA is seriously under funded, which has made it depend on drug-company funding in order to function at all. In return for funding, the industry expects faster reviews, and Light says faster reviews have more than tripled the number of black box warnings (the highest level of side effect warnings) or withdrawals from the market.

"Based on our current system, the designation of 'safe and effective' on today's new drugs could be replaced with, 'apparently safe based on incomplete information, and more effective than a placebo.'"

http://chronicfatigu...ed-for-more.htm

1. You do not mention what proportion of the existing drugs have serious side effects. Therefore your conclusion is not valid. I expect doctors prefer to have a range of choices available to them, so that they can choose the most appropriate for a specific set of circumstances.

2. In fact, drug trials are normally carried out on volunteers, I believe, and the volunteers are screened to minimise the risk to them; the purpose of the trial is not to assess the risk of the drug, but to identify the potential side effects so that people who are particularly at risk from a specific side effect can be protected. The trials to identify the side effects are carried out on individuals who will hopefully survive the side effects without suffering lasting damage. Many drugs are recommended to be avoided by pregnant and nursing mothers not because of any identified risk, but becuase no trial has been carried out on this group, due to the dread of side effects affecting this particularly emotive vulnerable group.

3. It seems sensible that oversight of drug-testing should be at the expense of those corporate bodies that benefit from its activities, and who determine the scale of its costs (based on the number of new drugs that they produce which require oversight). The rules within which the FDA operates are defined by government, which is funded by tax-payers.

I think you have provided us with sufficient information to applaud the efforts of the FDA in ensuring the safety of Western medicine. I am not sure what testing process was used on rhinoceros horn or tiger willy...

SC

[SteeleJoe]

Yes...Since Thailand was spared the cultural pollution that negatively impacted those countries that were British colonies, they've not had to rediscover their roots. They've always had a well defined cultural heritage with outside influences coming from Asia, especially China, India and Japan.

Are you joking? Sorry, but that is meant as a parody, isn't it?

By the way, what about cultural pollution that negatively impacted those countries that were French colonies? Dutch? (just to name the immediate neighbors -- while I smile and pretend that Thailand wasn't HUGELY impacted by all of them).

[exbelg]

mmhmhh last time i saw 5 min of that channel 3 or 5 soap opera , you know with that 13+ sign

if that is an example for thais to behave ?

the man was beating his wife

apparently normal in thai society ... our maid was also beating regually by her abuse alcoholoc husband that now seemed to have passed on to the other world

she got 200.000 baht for some kind of insurance, and she dared to spend 100.000 of it on that stupid man's funeral

in stead of keeping it for her children's education

[bf2002]

If by Westerner you mean American, British, and the old "farang" countries who's tourist and expat numbers have dropped or have dropped relative (as a percent) compared to the new up and coming tourists, than yes, we matter much less financially and this is thailand, so when the money's no coming from there, the culture of those that live off it are going to "shift".

On top of this, the Thais have always liked other Eastern cultures from 13 years ago back when I have personal experience.

I don't see any difference, except perhaps Thailand can finally have access to the foreign Asian shows they once could not, likely due to more liberal or more affordable broadcast rights fees. Per my understanding, piracy of western videos and even playing them without rights on the free thai channels is pretty common, but doing so with thai and other asian videos is a pretty big no-no. Enforcement is much better for obvious reasons, like not peeving off Asian trading partners and Asian govts that won't stop at just whining about copyrights like the US or the UK.

[zzaa09]

The life expectancy for Thais in 1900 was 37 years old.

It is 72 for men and 76 for women in 2011. Mainly thanks to Western medicine.

Sources....??:jap:

[BuckarooBanzai]

Ask yourself "Do I matter?", Does my wife matter", "Do we love each-other?", "Do my kids matter?" The rest is a pile of water buffalo shit! Best of luck on your endeavor to search out the truth!

[zzaa09]

Ask yourself "Do I matter?", Does my wife matter", "Do we love each-other?", "Do my kids matter?" The rest is a pile of water buffalo shit! Best of luck on your endeavor to search out the truth!

Well founded. As the truth has numerous definitions, applied by most of the Thai 'experts" on TV.:jap:

[Thaddeus]

The life expectancy for Thais in 1900 was 37 years old.

It is 72 for men and 76 for women in 2011. Mainly thanks to Western medicine.

Sources....??:jap:

Asked that already, not much happened.

[ChristopherWilliamsBKK]

@ the OP

Financially? Yes - only just - and to certain sections of Thai society

Spiritually? Never have been needed

Physically? well a little girth helps (well at least offsets the potbelly)

[IanForbes]

I do have to point out at least one case where tradition in Asian medicine has faltered. Previously, one of teh big reasons tigers were killed was to enable men to retain potency. Then came viagra. Whereas some dried tiger bone or rhino horn might cost $20 or so for a treatment, viagra or the local equivalent can be had for $1, and viagra actually works. So Chinese men have basically quit buying tiger parts in favor of the little blue pill, and the cost of a dead tiger has plummetted.

I have said the same thing many times. The single most important discovery for protection of the wild beasts has been the discovery of Viagra and other medicines of this type. Long live Viagra! Wtiout it the stupid Asian market for rhino horn, tiger testicles and bear gall bladders, would continue to flourish and these animals would continue to suffer.

[mstribling]

Of course it is all someone else's fault. No personal responsibility.

Thai culture

[zzaa09]

I do have to point out at least one case where tradition in Asian medicine has faltered. Previously, one of teh big reasons tigers were killed was to enable men to retain potency. Then came viagra. Whereas some dried tiger bone or rhino horn might cost $20 or so for a treatment, viagra or the local equivalent can be had for $1, and viagra actually works. So Chinese men have basically quit buying tiger parts in favor of the little blue pill, and the cost of a dead tiger has plummetted.

I have said the same thing many times. The single most important discovery for protection of the wild beasts has been the discovery of Viagra and other medicines of this type. Long live Viagra! Wtiout it the stupid Asian market for rhino horn, tiger testicles and bear gall bladders, would continue to flourish and these animals would continue to suffer.

Now, the only thing suffering is the pitiful souls that find it necessary to use pharmaceuticals to get up.

[mstribling]

I don't see them as pitiful. They're are champions.

They've outlived their bodies ability and are still driving on.

Only a fool thinks it's not going happen.

You hear me? Champions.

[StreetCowboy]

I don't see them as pitiful. They're are champions.

They've outlived their bodies ability and are still driving on.

Only a fool thinks it's not going happen.

You hear me? Champions.

We are all pitiful. Nothing is permanent but woe.

We are condemned to this purgatory from the day we are sprung unprepared into this world until we shuffle off this mortal coil.

We just have to make the best of a bad lot through senseless debauchery and depravity

SC

[mstribling]

I don't understand most of that. But I think you were saying "Party on Wayne. Party on Garth."

[Thakkar]

I don't see them as pitiful. They're are champions.

They've outlived their bodies ability and are still driving on.

Only a fool thinks it's not going happen.

You hear me? Champions.

We are all pitiful. Nothing is permanent but woe.

We are condemned to this purgatory from the day we are sprung unprepared into this world until we shuffle off this mortal coil.

We just have to make the best of a bad lot through senseless debauchery and depravity

SC

My depravity and debauchery has thus far been senseful.

[StreetCowboy]

I don't see them as pitiful. They're are champions.

They've outlived their bodies ability and are still driving on.

Only a fool thinks it's not going happen.

You hear me? Champions.

We are all pitiful. Nothing is permanent but woe.

We are condemned to this purgatory from the day we are sprung unprepared into this world until we shuffle off this mortal coil.

We just have to make the best of a bad lot through senseless debauchery and depravity

SC

My depravity and debauchery has thus far been senseful.

senseless, senseful, sensible, sensational

Whatever

SC

[PingManDan]

We never did matter

Here here, only our money

[zzaa09]

We never did matter

Here here, only our money

All currencies are based on nothing.

[Ulysses G.]

As long as they buy stuff, who cares?

[Oberkommando]

Did we ever matter in a country that's had no great western influence at all? I think that 'we' (as in westerners) have an overweening idea of our own importance.

Thailand has been heavily influenced by the US since WWII.

[SteeleJoe]

Did we ever matter in a country that's had no great western influence at all? I think that 'we' (as in westerners) have an overweening idea of our own importance.

Thailand has been heavily influenced by the US since WWII.

Western influence in Thailand goes back a couple centuries before that but especially in the 1800's and onwards (anyone who thinks that the colonial powers and foreign culture made no impact on Siam simply doesn't know much about Thai history -- or even Asian history -- and has bought wholeheartedly into the nationalist myth-making).

And, just to cite one huge example in the 20th century (but prior to WWII): jJust how and why did Thailand became a constitutional monarchy instead of an absolute one? Guess where the coup planners were educated?

[zzaa09]

Did we ever matter in a country that's had no great western influence at all? I think that 'we' (as in westerners) have an overweening idea of our own importance.

Thailand has been heavily influenced by the US since WWII.

Yes, common historical knowledge.

[zzaa09]

Did we ever matter in a country that's had no great western influence at all? I think that 'we' (as in westerners) have an overweening idea of our own importance.

Thailand has been heavily influenced by the US since WWII.

Western influence in Thailand goes back a couple centuries before that but especially in the 1800's and onwards (anyone who thinks that the colonial powers and foreign culture made no impact on Siam simply doesn't know much about Thai history -- or even Asian history -- and has bought wholeheartedly into the nationalist myth-making).

Perhaps not Siam as a whole or a greater influence on the greater society/culture. but certainly during the Chulalongkorn era of siwalai, the circles of royalty and elite class were well-entrenched with European fashion and ideas - less the Siamese population.

[SteeleJoe]

Did we ever matter in a country that's had no great western influence at all? I think that 'we' (as in westerners) have an overweening idea of our own importance.

Thailand has been heavily influenced by the US since WWII.

Western influence in Thailand goes back a couple centuries before that but especially in the 1800's and onwards (anyone who thinks that the colonial powers and foreign culture made no impact on Siam simply doesn't know much about Thai history -- or even Asian history -- and has bought wholeheartedly into the nationalist myth-making).

Perhaps not Siam as a whole or a greater influence on the greater society/culture. but certainly during the Chulalongkorn era of siwalai, the circles of royalty and elite class were well-entrenched with European fashion and ideas - less the Siamese population.

What you say is common historical knowledge is apparently not so common. On this very thread (and elsewhere on TV), as well as in RL, people claim that Thailand avoided foriegn influence.

In reference to "the Chulalongkorn era of siwalai" : you don't think that those elite molded and shaped the culture in significant ways? Obviously the changes were not complete or universal and the lowers socio-economic/rural population was less affected (just as now) but even in tangible things like laws and infrastructure were making an impact well beyond mere fashion and ideas. Shoes, hats, last names, monogamy...a lot of that sort of thing was mandatory not just fashion.

Not to mention that the attempts to avoid undue foreign influence affected Siam in significant ways.