You Are To Blame For Thailand's Appalling Politics

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

You are to blame for your country's appalling politics

By The Nation

Unless the public starts to hold MPs and officials accountable, we can forget about anything other than interminable gutter politics

There seems to be a big disconnect between our elected leaders and the general public, who are often left scratching their heads, wondering what was just said. It's not so much the spin that these leaders put on their statements. Usually it's the logic of the argument itself. What the leaders want, what they say, and what is actually do-able in the foreseeable future are often completely different matters entirely.

This disconnect is not healthy and if it is left unchecked it will haunt us in the future. Thai people, in short, need to learn to engage with their elected representatives and the state apparatus that they control. We often wait until the situation becomes unbearable before we make our case, often in front of the Government House in the form of protest.

The disconnect is everywhere. Take the bid for the next World Expo, for example. The announcement for the bid made us feel good about ourselves, as it might possibly help us hold our heads up high again after years of embarrassing political turmoil that has tarnished the image of this land.

The week the government approved a Bt300-million budget to campaign for the bid, the Quality Learning Foundation reported that there are nearly 14 million disadvantaged children across the country. That's about one-fifth of the population.

Some of us are wondering if we are simply looking for a quick remedy in the form of a big international event so we don't have to face the harsh reality of our situation - like the fact that one-fifth of our people are stranded in a dark place, struggling to make ends meet on a day-to-day basis.

We, as a nation, need a reality check. We need to do more in terms of holding our elected representatives accountable for their actions. In short, people need to do more than just go to the voting booths thinking that responsibilities as a citizen end there. They don't end there. If anything, that's just the beginning of it.

One of the problems in Thai politics is that wealthy people enter the public sector not to serve but to protect their wealth and interests. And so it is explainable why they want to hang on to power for as long as possible. This is the only desire they all have in common, and it is understandable why none of them has the courage to suggest term limitations.

If there were such a limitation, people who see politics as a family business would have to resort to other means to protect their fortune and business enterprises and interests.

We don't do enough to hold our representative to their word. Instead, we just put up with their spin because we are tired of trying to engage with them. And so we allow their ludicrous comments to dominate headlines. Where are the political action groups, the political analysts and academics to counter these political parasites?

Take, for example, the report about two small parties - Ruam Chart Pattana and Puea Pandin - merging to contest the upcoming general election as a single party. The de facto leader of Ruam Chart Pattana, Suwat Liptapanlop, says the merged party represents a new alternative for voters?

What alternative? How so? Changing the name of the party with the same old faces and same selfish vested interests does not represent any change at all - unless of course, the new arrangement plans to generate something wonderful and creative for the country.

A few days ago Suwat was also reported as blaming the lack of choice in Thai politics for the unresolved political dispute. That is self-evident, given his own plans. He should understand that it's the choice itself that is the problem. They need to re-evaluate themselves to see why they are so undesirable.

Unfortunately, many people are just too stupid to realise how appalling their representatives are. Thus, they can't understand why capable people do not want to enter the same gutter arena as them. It's not a matter of being pretentious; it's about not wanting to being associated with filth.

But no matter how much the public moans and cries about the quality of our elected leaders, nothing will change if we don't change our own attitude and start holding them accountable for their actions and their promises. We call them a bunch of hypocrites but we are just as bad when we tolerate their behaviour and let their actions go unchecked. We have to ask ourselves: Did we vote for them so they can raise their hands in Parliament so their party boss can stay on as long as he can, or are they accountable to the people of the constituency they are supposed to represent? Sadly, for the time being anyway, the answer is obvious.

-- The Nation 2011-04-09

[aussiebebe]

I have no politcal leanings in Thailand as I can't vote anyway, but I'm astonished that this article fails to mention the 2006 coup. Whether justified or not, how are voters to be blamed for the consequences of this exactly? It's a strange position to take, I feel.

I'm not Thai and don't care about politics one way or another, but I've lived here since 2005 and I've seen and experienced for myself the difference post-coup in increased anti-social behavior, drug use and crime in the area I live. Lots of things like the 2am closing time for pubs, for example, were just forgotten where once they were strictly enforced. I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

Edited April 8, 2011 by aussiebebe

[endure]

"EDITORIAL

You are to blame for your country's appalling politics

By The Nation

Unless the public starts to hold MPs and officials accountable, we can forget about anything other than interminable gutter politics"

Unless MPs and officials provide the public (as in the majority of the population of Thailand rather than those who read The Nation) with the means to a decent education we can forget anything other than the same old trite editorials from people who are insulated from what amounts to 'real life' for the majority of Thais. Go and plant a paddy and then tell us whose fault it is.

[endure]

I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

You're fortunate you're not one of the 2500 people who were murdered without the benefit of a trial.

[yoshiwara]

Editorials like these leave me completely indifferent as they are so much moaning about the poverty of democracy, the MPs are only in it for themselves, we must wake up blah blah blah. Just another incessant liberal whine which has been repeated time after time about so many countries if not all of them. The real world decision is that of making an actual choice for the lesser of two (or more evils)on the day of the election. Unfortunately we will have to put up with more of the 'examining our navels' editorials during the next month or two. Just so much confetti.

[ib1b4]

I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

You're fortunate you're not one of the 2500 people who were murdered without the benefit of a trial.

I certainly DO NOT condone the extermination the drug dealers as was the case in the period mentioned ,but as I recall in the area that I live the dealers were given three chances to explain how they derived their wealth, and many chose not to report themselves to the police ,citing that they would choose death over the loss of their ill goten wealth, of which stayed within the family after their death. that being said I now appoligise to any body affended by what I have written above but it is the truth as I saw it at that time.

[selftaopath]

I enjoyed reading this article and am glad some people understand. I think it would be very beneficial for the Kingdom of Thailand and it's people IF these self-serving institutions were changed. I don't understand how this could come about under the existing Thai mentality, and it is not even a remote possibility that the politicians/police/army will choose a way that is focused on the good of the nation and the Thai people.

[SteeleJoe]

I have no politcal leanings in Thailand as I can't vote anyway, but I'm astonished that this article fails to mention the 2006 coup. Whether justified or not, how are voters to be blamed for the consequences of this exactly? It's a strange position to take, I feel.

I'm not Thai and don't care about politics one way or another, but I've lived here since 2005 and I've seen and experienced for myself the difference post-coup in increased anti-social behavior, drug use and crime in the area I live. Lots of things like the 2am closing time for pubs, for example, were just forgotten where once they were strictly enforced. I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

Oh, if I only I wasn't about to step out the door...well, I think your comment will generate LOTS of "feedback" Let me just quickly say that I've lived here about 4 times as long as your self (actually more I guess) and while that doesn't mean I'm write and your not, I have to say that I don't share your perception at all. (And during the Thaksin years, even from my many pro-Thaksin Thai associates and friends, I never once heard anyone say that they felt that there was a greater respect for the rule of law.)

There has NEVER been rule of law in Thailand (I've discussed this with many Thais amongst them legal scholars -- that's not just me being the negative Falang) -- and most certainly not when the police were encouraged and empowered to break it on a regular basis in the most egregious possible way (even more than usual)-- being judge, jury and executioner.

[Oberkommando]

I have no politcal leanings in Thailand as I can't vote anyway, but I'm astonished that this article fails to mention the 2006 coup. Whether justified or not, how are voters to be blamed for the consequences of this exactly? It's a strange position to take, I feel.

I'm not Thai and don't care about politics one way or another, but I've lived here since 2005 and I've seen and experienced for myself the difference post-coup in increased anti-social behavior, drug use and crime in the area I live. Lots of things like the 2am closing time for pubs, for example, were just forgotten where once they were strictly enforced. I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

The night after the coup I arrived back in Bangkok from Phnom Penh and witnessed bars staying open well into the wee hours, something that was unheard of during Thaksin's tenure in that particular area. It seemed as if that very night, the respect for the rule of law had been almost completely lost.

I'm glad that you have noticed the spiralling crime rates and increased drug usage and anti-social behaviour, I have noticed this too, and statistics seem to indicate crime is out of control under this administration.

[Oberkommando]

I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

You're fortunate you're not one of the 2500 people who were murdered without the benefit of a trial.

It was a popular policy at the time to counter the spiralling drug crime in the country and a policy this current government have indicated they may emulate.

[Thaddeus]

"EDITORIAL

You are to blame for your country's appalling politics

By The Nation

Unless the public starts to hold MPs and officials accountable, we can forget about anything other than interminable gutter politics"

Unless MPs and officials provide the public (as in the majority of the population of Thailand rather than those who read The Nation) with the means to a decent education we can forget anything other than the same old trite editorials from people who are insulated from what amounts to 'real life' for the majority of Thais. Go and plant a paddy and then tell us whose fault it is.

Ditto

[hammered]

I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

You're fortunate you're not one of the 2500 people who were murdered without the benefit of a trial.

It was a popular policy at the time to counter the spiralling drug crime in the country and a policy this current government have indicated they may emulate.

Popular doesnt make right and to be fair to this government they have stated they wont follow the murderous route.

What is amazing in Thailand is virtually nobody who criticizes the April/May deaths says anything at all about the drug massacre. It is truly amazing that so few politicians in Thailand actually give a toss about human rights but so many hypocritically raise human rights issues that their own side want raised while turning a blind eye to others. The drug war was the single biggest human rights abuse in recent Thai history and yet attracts little attention. Human rights have a long long way to go in Thailand. Shamefully political hypocrisy is well evident

[Thaddeus]

I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

You're fortunate you're not one of the 2500 people who were murdered without the benefit of a trial.

It was a popular policy at the time to counter the spiralling drug crime in the country and a policy this current government have indicated they may emulate.

Most policies are popular when you have a chance that there will be a loaded gun pointing at you.

[aroya]

Hello, it is my understanding that 1400 of the 2500 people murdered by the police were not involved in any way with drugs! ...also no policeman or politician has even been arrested for these crimes against innocent people! Mr Thaksin should be held accountable!

[elshaheen]

Thailand government are like kids in a sandbox.

[jdinasia]

I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

You're fortunate you're not one of the 2500 people who were murdered without the benefit of a trial.

I certainly DO NOT condone the extermination the drug dealers as was the case in the period mentioned ,but as I recall in the area that I live the dealers were given three chances to explain how they derived their wealth, and many chose not to report themselves to the police ,citing that they would choose death over the loss of their ill goten wealth, of which stayed within the family after their death. that being said I now appoligise to any body affended by what I have written above but it is the truth as I saw it at that time.

Even though you say you do not condone the murder without trial of 2500+ people (some 1400 of which were reported to have NOT been involved in the drug trade) you certainly seem to be justifying their murder without trial. If I have more money than the police or some official thinks I should have, then feel free to issue an arrest warrant and arrest me. Then when I say "prove your charges in a court of law" and you can't ...? You suggest that the mere appearance of having done wrong and not cooperating with the police justifies a death sentence without trial.

[jdinasia]

It was a popular policy at the time to counter the spiralling drug crime in the country and a policy this current government have indicated they may emulate.

This government has cracked down on drugs and did it without the use of extrajudicial murder. Are you saying that being "popular" makes it acceptable to murder people without trial?

[geriatrickid]

I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

You're fortunate you're not one of the 2500 people who were murdered without the benefit of a trial.

Those 2500 were not necessarily all murdered. In some cases there were shootouts. In other cases, criminals took the opportunity to settle accounts. In other cases there was gross negligence and incompetence when the wrong people were caught in difficult times. Many of the dead people were actual violent thugs with blood on their hands. Others were innocent civilians killed as non combatants in an apprehended insurrection. Thailand was under attack by drug cartels that had taken over the judiciary, the local government and the police in key regions.

The government of the day with the support of the nation, sought to stop the cartels from seizing the country. Foreigners just don't get it. The drug cartels had their tentacles into senior government positions and had the government not acted, Thailand would have gone the way of Columbia or Panama. The government at the time used the existing civilian structures to try and wrest back control of the nation. Yes, it is wrong that some innocent people died. however, look at Mexico now with the tens of thousands of non implicated people dying. That's what Thailand would have become had the Thai government not acted in the manner that it did. If people are relatively safe today it is because the governemt took the measures necessary to keep the country from being taken over by crime syndicates.

[whybother]

Those 2500 were not necessarily all murdered.

<snip>

Yes, only 1400 were.

[Buchholz]

I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

You're fortunate you're not one of the 2500 people who were murdered without the benefit of a trial.

It was a popular policy at the time to counter the spiralling drug crime in the country and a policy this current government have indicated they may emulate.

Nonsense.

The current government has made no statements they intend to revive the non-judicial slaughter of thousands of alleged drug dealers.

What they have said is that they intend to work to control the spread of drugs, WITHOUT butchering anyone in a frenzy such as the previous government did.

[Buchholz]

Those 2500 were not necessarily all murdered.

<snip>

Yes, only 1400 were.

Even those that may have been suspected or identified or accused of being involved in drugs, if they are killed without due process in a trial, it's murder.

[blabla1]

Problem is those who should be accountable are getting big cuts, i dare say, i would not kill anybody,but relieve them and their families of all assets and use this money in a fund to keep them in jail for the rest of their lives, to be accountable in Thailand, is to lose face,so how can this work??

[landofthefree]

I have no politcal leanings in Thailand as I can't vote anyway, but I'm astonished that this article fails to mention the 2006 coup. Whether justified or not, how are voters to be blamed for the consequences of this exactly? It's a strange position to take, I feel.

I'm not Thai and don't care about politics one way or another, but I've lived here since 2005 and I've seen and experienced for myself the difference post-coup in increased anti-social behavior, drug use and crime in the area I live. Lots of things like the 2am closing time for pubs, for example, were just forgotten where once they were strictly enforced. I know Thaksin's government got lots of heat from Amnesty International for their 'war on drugs' but my experience and perception of living here as a foriegner is that generally respect for rule of law is not what it once was.

The night after the coup I arrived back in Bangkok from Phnom Penh and witnessed bars staying open well into the wee hours, something that was unheard of during Thaksin's tenure in that particular area. It seemed as if that very night, the respect for the rule of law had been almost completely lost.

I'm glad that you have noticed the spiralling crime rates and increased drug usage and anti-social behaviour, I have noticed this too, and statistics seem to indicate crime is out of control under this administration.

How can you possibly doubt the words of Abhisit our great leader, why it was just weeks ago when he reported the huge drop of crime under his tenure. Then again he could have been lying, I mean it wouldn't be the first time that a prime minister lied would it?

[landofthefree]

Those 2500 were not necessarily all murdered.

<snip>

Yes, only 1400 were.

Even those that may have been suspected or identified or accused of being involved in drugs, if they are killed without due process in a trial, it's murder.

Which is of course, what drug dealers do every day of their lives, it is wrong to murder both the dealers and their addicts but if one group had to die most sane people wouldnt be arguing for it to be the addicts.

[473geo]

EDITORIAL

You are to blame for your country's appalling politics

By The Nation

Unless the public starts to hold MPs and officials accountable, we can forget about anything other than interminable gutter politics

"There seems to be a big disconnect between our elected leaders and the general public (edit for brevity)

This disconnect is not healthy and if it is left unchecked it will haunt us in the future. Thai people, in short, need to learn to engage with their elected representatives and the state apparatus that they control. We often wait until the situation becomes unbearable before we make our case, often in front of the Government House in the form of protest."

Once again sadly the discussion has moved from the original thought to a discussion on the pereception of western values on the drug clear up.

There is a valuable message in the article, Thailand needs to move forward with education, and the people actually believing the politicians represent their interests. Perhaps you guys can think about how to achieve this dificult task.

I admire the Thai ability to readily accept we cannot change what happened yesterday...........what they need to believe is they have opportunity and ability to change the events and conclusions of tommorow. As the article states in ways other than turning up in numbers outside government house, at disputed border areas etc, the Thai public need to be reassured their vote will make a difference and have the ability to instigate change if they are disatisfied with government actions.

But how can the people continue to believe their votes and opinions actually count when a country uses the military to remove elected goverments. The reason the military act is lost on the general public, it is their perception of the action which causes the divide.

Edited April 9, 2011 by 473geo

[hammered]

One interesting thing is that the biggest divide you can find is in the ruling elites who control all politics and colour coded machines. Kinda odd but still today you can find many people who want Thaksin back, those who like Abhisit and even more who dont give a toss happily getting on with each other doing important things like getting on with life, Still that dont sell newspapers and doesnt make the competing teams upstairs exactly happy either. It is the elite who created the mess and in this they were given a nice assist by the sensationalist media. If someone actually allowed the people to sort it out unfettered and with encumbrance of being led by old agenda driven political warhorses on all sides then everything would likely be resolved every easily. That however, would mean all the current crop of leaders losing out and that wouldnt go down well with those who like to carve up the pie while tossing the scraps to everyone else.

[slapout]

Prior to enforcement of closing times, those bars/establishments that remained open to whatever time, paid for the privilege. Since closing enforcement has come about those few who used to get the backhanders are now a cog of the larger circle who share in receipted fines, asset seizure, contraband value, etc.

Not sure about the rest of Thailand, but here in CM those referenced cogs now seem to have opened all night establishments. The enforcement of closing time on the vast majority of venues, ensure that those all nighters have no competition.

Not being privy to the detail payouts, etc, I would not even venture a estimate of figures, but the so called crack downs, enforcement of laws, etc, would appear to have resulted in probably more accountability for the flow of money from the public into the coffers, as well as open various business venues which can operate with impurity and virtually no competition. This does seem to follow a pattern established by the man in charge during implementation of various laws.

[SteeleJoe]

One interesting thing is that the biggest divide you can find is in the ruling elites who control all politics and colour coded machines. Kinda odd but still today you can find many people who want Thaksin back, those who like Abhisit and even more who dont give a toss happily getting on with each other doing important things like getting on with life, Still that dont sell newspapers and doesnt make the competing teams upstairs exactly happy either. It is the elite who created the mess and in this they were given a nice assist by the sensationalist media. If someone actually allowed the people to sort it out unfettered and with encumbrance of being led by old agenda driven political warhorses on all sides then everything would likely be resolved every easily. That however, would mean all the current crop of leaders losing out and that wouldnt go down well with those who like to carve up the pie while tossing the scraps to everyone else.

That was good post and it desreves a more well thought post than this but I'm tired so I'm just going to dash this off from the top of my head (who am I kidding -- all my posts are like that):

I think people make one mistake with their lamentations about the elite: because of certain aspects of Thai culture (not to mention human nature) were the elite not in charge, then those who are in charge (the currently downtrodded? The democratically minded middle class?) become the elite -- and guess what? They aren't inherently any more egalitarian or just than the people in charge now -- especially after it's their turn.

Sure there things that can be and should be addressed now but mostly I think that to see the sort of enormous and fundamental change that people are actually discussing would require a generations long evolutionary process. And to think anyone guy or group is going to fix things...Thailand doesn't have the quality of poltical players required andf the system itself doesn't engender them, attract them or even allow them.

[SteeleJoe]

OK , I've come back to this thread because I have to get this off my chest. Again I apologize if it';s not as well thought out (well written) as it should be... I think (hope) it's been implicit in my previous posts on this subject (here and on the thread about the drug war) but I see from posts here that it needs to be said explicitly:

People talking about the rule of law misunderstand the term. it doesn't mean that there's less crime (ie "the law" - meaning the police -- is ruling thing and the criminals live in fear). There are descriptions of the term going back to the Greeks and other great civilizations but the UN describes it as:

a principle of governance in which all persons, institutions and entities, public and private, including the State itself, are accountable to laws that are publicly promulgated, equally enforced and independently adjudicated, and which are consistent with international human rights norms and standards. It requires, as well, measures to ensure adherence to the principles of supremacy of law, equality before the law, accountability to the law, fairness in the application of the law, separation of powers, participation in decision-making, legal certainty, avoidance of arbitrariness and procedural and legal transparency.

Both common sense and scholarly works on the topic of good governance will tell you that it's one of the key components to having a just and democratic society. I suspect that those on this forum who not only misuse the term but in fact endorse and praise an abrogation of it, have the luxury of being citizens of countries where it's, if not absolute or universal, largely taken for granted as the ideal to be striven for and it generally provides protection for them and their fellow citizens -- from who you ask? Not the criminal, but the government and law enforcement. and while

[473geo]

One interesting thing is that the biggest divide you can find is in the ruling elites who control all politics and colour coded machines. Kinda odd but still today you can find many people who want Thaksin back, those who like Abhisit and even more who dont give a toss happily getting on with each other doing important things like getting on with life, Still that dont sell newspapers and doesnt make the competing teams upstairs exactly happy either. It is the elite who created the mess and in this they were given a nice assist by the sensationalist media. If someone actually allowed the people to sort it out unfettered and with encumbrance of being led by old agenda driven political warhorses on all sides then everything would likely be resolved every easily. That however, would mean all the current crop of leaders losing out and that wouldnt go down well with those who like to carve up the pie while tossing the scraps to everyone else.

That was good post and it desreves a more well thought post than this but I'm tired so I'm just going to dash this off from the top of my head (who am I kidding -- all my posts are like that):

I think people make one mistake with their lamentations about the elite: because of certain aspects of Thai culture (not to mention human nature) were the elite not in charge, then those who are in charge (the currently downtrodded? The democratically minded middle class?) become the elite -- and guess what? They aren't inherently any more egalitarian or just than the people in charge now -- especially after it's their turn.

Sure there things that can be and should be addressed now but mostly I think that to see the sort of enormous and fundamental change that people are actually discussing would require a generations long evolutionary process. And to think anyone guy or group is going to fix things...Thailand doesn't have the quality of poltical players required andf the system itself doesn't engender them, attract them or even allow them.

I think that is a well balanced 'off the top of your head' response

There can be no denial that 'elite' exist and influence in countries all around the globe. The elite effectively provide the finance to back the non government industry sector

The conflict of interest arrives when the elite are also the government.

Conflict of interest when the cost, and benefit to the country, of overseas investment, cannot be matched the indigenous 'elite'

I also agree with the fact that the mai pen rai mentality has been so instilled into the proletariat that only real education and exposure to honest government has got to be the way forward

Who is to say Abhisit is not capable of such an achievement?.........but what constraints is he working under which may limit his vision and results?

Edited April 9, 2011 by 473geo