ญ And ฐ Change Form With Subscript Vowel

[ChristianPFC]

Recently, I came across this word:

กตัญญู gà-dtan-yoo [to] be grateful ; oblige

and something didn't look right.

The last letter looks like a ญ; but it is ญู. During all my study of Thai language I never came across such a case, and never read about it in books. There seems to be a rule: If ญ is used with a vowel that is written below the consonant, the vowel replaces the sign that looks like -ั ไม้ หันากาศ but is written below.

And even better: the same applies for ฐ which becomes ฐู.

I must admit, this seem to be extremely rare cases which are only of academic interest, but nonetheless, this will help me remember this word.

Does anybody know further exaples or know a book where this is written as a rule? It would perfectly fit with the vowel that have different forms in medial or final position. When I type inThai, it happens automatically.

[ChristianPFC]

Here the Thai letters again in large font:

กตัญญู ญ ญู -ู -ั ไม้ หันากาศ ฐ ฐู

[aitch]

I think encoding is the issue (only allowing one subscript character). Leading กฅัญญู to be an acceptable spelling.

[bhoydy]

It's a good point that you make, and one that never crossed my mind when i learned the word กตัญญู. At the time i guess i thought that was the rule, drop the ไม้หันอากาศ and add สระ อู. As far as i know that's the only word it applies to. I'd be interested to know how you found out about the ฐ changing to ฐู because the main letter changes shape as well. I've never seen a word with that in it, although a search on google reveals some words that seem to be pronounced bu rather than tu. Example - วัดราชฐูรณะ

Wat Rat Burana. It almost looks like it's Laos. Interesting stuff, hopefully someone knowledgeable can weigh in.

[Richard W]

I think encoding is the issue (only allowing one subscript character). Leading กฅัญญู to be an acceptable spelling.

No, the effect has long been there. The Cambodian script, which allows multiple subscript characters, also loses the corresponding part of its ญ (i.e. ញ) when one writes a consonant below it.

In some older books (60's, for example), the combinations ปั ฝั ฟั have a gap in the consonant's tail to let the mai hanakat through.

[Rikker]

This convention dates back at least to the beginning of Thai printing, around 150 years ago, and was probably also a convention in handwritten manuscripts and/or inscriptions before that.

As Richard said, it's likely a trait inherited from Khmer writing. When the equivalent Khmer character ញ takes a subscript, it loses its "leg", as that part of the symbol is called. I don't know when this convention originated in Khmer either. The combination isn't quite common enough to check easily, but I've asked a colleague about it.

I did locate an old Thai stone inscription from 1370 with the ญู combination, though, and it had both the "leg" of the ญ as well as the vowel squeezed in below/beside it. But orthography is historically widely variable, so that's only one piece of evidence.

Here's a list of the words in the Royal Institute Dictionary:

Words with ญุ /-yu-/:

กตัญญุตา [กะตัน-] น. ความกตัญญู, ความเป็นผู้รู้อุปการคุณที่ท่านทำให้, ความเป็นผู้รู้คุณท่าน. (ป.).

กาลัญญุตา [กาลันยุตา] น. ความเป็นผู้รู้กาล. (ป.).

วทัญญุตา น. ความเป็นผู้เอื้อเฟื้อ. (ป.).

อกตัญญุตา [อะกะตัน] น. ความเป็นผู้ไม่รู้อุปการคุณที่ท่านทําแก่ตน. (ป.).

Words with ญู /-yuu-/:

กตัญญู [กะตัน-] น. (ผู้) รู้อุปการะที่ท่านทําให้, (ผู้) รู้คุณท่าน, เป็นคําคู่กันกับกตเวที. [ป. กต ว่า (อุปการคุณ) ที่ท่านทําแล้ว + ญู ว่า ผู้รู้].

กาลัญญู [กาลันยู] น. ผู้รู้กาล. (ป.).

ปริสัญญู [ปะริสันยู] น. ผู้รู้จักประชุมชนและกิริยาที่จะต้องประพฤติต่อประชุมชนนั้น ๆ ว่า หมู่นี้เมื่อเข้าไปหาจะต้องทํากิริยาอย่างนี้ จะต้องพูดอย่างนี้เป็นต้น. (ป.).

มัตตัญญู น. ผู้รู้ประมาณคือความพอเหมาะพอดี. (ป.).

รัตตัญญู [รัดตันยู] น. ผู้รู้กาลนาน, ผู้มีอายุมาก จํากิจการต่าง ๆ ได้มาก. (ป.).

วทัญญู (แบบ) ว. เอื้อเฟื้อ, เผื่อแผ่; ใจดี, ใจบุญ. (ป.).

วรัญญู [วะรันยู] น. ''ผู้ตรัสรู้ธรรมอันประเสริฐ'' คือ พระพุทธเจ้า. (ป.).

วิญญู น. ผู้รู้แจ้ง, นักปราชญ์. (ป.; ส. วิชฺ?).

วิญญูชน (กฎ) น. บุคคลผู้รู้ผิดรู้ชอบตามปรกติ.

วิญญูภาพ น. ความเป็นผู้รู้ผิดรู้ชอบตามปรกติ.

สัพพัญญู [สับ] น. ผู้รู้ทุกสิ่งทุกอย่าง, ผู้รู้ทั่ว; พระนามพระพุทธเจ้า. (ป.).

อกตัญญู [อะกะตัน] น. ผู้ไม่รู้อุปการคุณที่ท่านทําแก่ตน. (ป.).

อวิญญู ว. โง่, ไม่มีความรู้. (ป.).

One word with ฐุ /thu/ (none with ฐู):

ทิฏฐุชุกรรม (แบบ) น. การทําความเห็นให้ตรง คือ เห็นถูกทาง เช่น เห็นว่าทําดีได้ดี ทําชั่วได้ชั่ว (เป็นข้อหนึ่งในบุญกิริยาวัตถุ ๑๐ คือ ทานมัย สีลมัย ภาวนามัย อปจายนมัย เวยยาวัจจมัย ปัตติทานมัย ปัตตานุโมทนามัย ธัมมัสสวนมัย ธัมมเทสนามัย ทิฏฐุชุกรรม). (ป. ทิฏฺฐุชุกมฺม).

[Peppy]

วัดราชฐูรณะ Wat Rat Burana.

Think that's just a typo--ฐ and บ are in the same place on the keyboard.

In some older books (60's, for example), the combinations ปั ฝั ฟั have a gap in the consonant's tail to let the mai hanakat through.

I always thought that was because of the typographic techniques of the time--i.e. ป ฝ and ฟ were printed as บ ผ and พ, and then a little line was placed above them to extend the "tail", but sometimes it was a little off, causing the gap. This is actually quite common in books as recent as the mid-nineties...

[bhoydy]

Think that's just a typo--ฐ and บ are in the same place on the keyboard.

Oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out.

[ChristianPFC]

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I used the Thai Keyboard Input from Women LearningThai. Foo Fan with Mai Han Agat can look pretty similar to Loo Julaa (with the Mai Han Agat shiftet a bit more to the right, I would say indistinguishable). When Doo Bpa Dtak and Doo Cha Daa are used with subscript vowels, it becomes a mess:

ฟั ฬ ฏ ฏุ ฏู ฎ ฎุ ฎู

[Rikker]

In some older books (60's, for example), the combinations ปั ฝั ฟั have a gap in the consonant's tail to let the mai hanakat through.

I always thought that was because of the typographic techniques of the time--i.e. ป ฝ and ฟ were printed as บ ผ and พ, and then a little line was placed above them to extend the "tail", but sometimes it was a little off, causing the gap. This is actually quite common in books as recent as the mid-nineties...

I think typographic conveniences certainly factor in, but there is precedent on older handwriting conventions, too. Old handwritten Thai followed the Khmer style, where consonants followed by า were written as a single connected symbol. This also persisted in the early decades of Thai printing (mid-19th century). So when a character that has an ascending 'tail', ป ฝ or ฟ, was followed by า, it was written just like บ ผ or พ with connected า, and instead of the typical ascending tail, a การันต์-like symbol was written above the consonant.

Have a look at this example:

This is from a manuscript of a dictionary composed circa 1840s. The two words written here are (rendered in modern spelling) กำปั่น and กำเปาะ. The latter may look something like กำเบ์าะ, but this was just how the writing was at that time.

Notice how ไม้หันอากาศ was simply written intersecting with the ascending tail of the consonant.

This "detached tail" form was also used when the consonant had a superscript vowel (อิ อี อึ อื) because these were also written connected to the consonant.

This reads กะปิ, shrimp paste.

And more:

กะเปา (= modern กระเป๋า; in the past, tone markings were not used as regularly)

กะปุก

กะโปก (pardon this less-than-genteel word; included for comparison)

Here's one where you can see both forms of ฟ in the same phrase:

ฟาด

ฟาดฟัน

And a few more for good measure, with the definitions for context:

ปืนไฟ

ปืนยา ปืนใหญ่

ปืนหลัก

ปูน

เปน

Now compare those with this compilation I made of words from the first printed dictionary, published nearly three decades later in 1873:

Notice how by this point the combined character with า is still used in the word บาง, but not in ปาก. The detached curly tail is still seen in เปิด, and a detached straight tail is seen in ปัน ปัญา ฟัน เป่า etc. In fact, any time there is a superscript of any kind the tail is detached. This would have been done because with old movable type you had to be line up actual little pieces of metal, so it was easier to create the superscripts separately from the baseline characters. (Though note the exception: เฟ็ด, in which for some reason the printer made ฟ็ together as a single piece of type, with a bent tail to accommodate it. This quirk is likely due to this being among the first Thai printing presses.)

So while it's possible the two phenomena (detached tails in old manuscripts and detached tails in older printing) are unrelated, I'd say the one in a way begat the other, in conjunction with the needs of early printing technology, and that towards the end it persisted primarily for reasons of typographic convenience.