Falling Asleep

[Xangsamhua]

After sporadic and unsuccessful attempts over several years to develop a daily meditation practice I finally seemed to have cracked it about six months ago following my reading of US Zen masters, especially Joko Beck. However, a recent 3-week business and pleasure trip to Australia upset my routine and, since being back in LOS for a week, I've not been able to sit for more than five minutes without falling asleep.

I suppose it could just be lingering fatigue from the trip (which was a very busy one), but I have a tendency to nod off a bit anyway, and wonder what Forum members think or do in response to that problem. I don't have a teacher or sangha to help, but would appreciate any responses from practitioners.

Is age a factor? I'm 67.

Thank you and regards

Xangsamhua

Edited April 17, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[happyrobert]

I know exactly what the problem is and how to correct it with minimal effort.

The first thing you need to do is...is....is...first thing is.....is....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Xangsamhua]

I know exactly what the problem is and how to correct it with minimal effort.

The first thing you need to do is...is....is...first thing is.....is....zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

It's a bit like that.

[billzant]

As has been pointed out the issue could just be that you lack sleep, but I am sure you know that.

What is your posture? Keeping a vertical back is supposed to prevent sleeping, is this a factor?

If not, then perseverance. Was it shikantaza you were practising? That is timed. Forcing a discipline sometimes works.

[Brucenkhamen]

I've never been one to fall asleep, even when wanting to sometimes, but this sort of occurance in meditation can be one of two things as far as I know.

You've been very busy and possibly sleep deprived and starting meditating again sends a signal to the body it's time to catch up on rest, this often happens on the first couple of days of a meditation retreat. If so just take the time to unwind, meditate when you can but don't worry if you can't and sleep if you need to after a few days of taking it easy things should improve.

The other is known as sloth and torpor, it's the mind resisting the meditating process, doing whatever it can to avoid being in the present moment just meditating. If it's this you need to put forth more effort, do walking meditation, splash water on your face, be determined and keep at it, observe and learn what you can, until you get through it.

Sounds like you've got the first.

Edited April 17, 2011 by Brucenkhamen

[Xangsamhua]

Was it shikantaza you were practising? That is timed. Forcing a discipline sometimes works.

I believe it is (I had to check a couple of websites to see, though I've always thought it was). I haven't been timing with a bell, but have been counting breaths and know about how many I need for 20 minutes. I used to alternately open and close my eyes after every 20, 30 breaths or so as a means of staying alert, but now if i do that I'm out to it after just a few breaths.

I suspect you and Bruce are right. I'm just a bit fatigued. Jason Siff, in "Unlearning Meditation", says not to worry too much if you're drowsy and nod off a bit; the hypnogogic state between wakefulness and sleep can be helpful. However, I don't think he was referring to actual sleeping. (In "Unlearning Meditation" he describes his "recollective awareness" approach.)

Regarding posture, I think it's fairly straight (when I'm awake ). I wonder if my gaze may be wrong, though. I look straight ahead, but I saw while I was checking on the net a recommendation to look down.

For people interested in Zen there's a nice website called Treeleaf Zendo, which is aimed at people who can't get to a Centre. It has a Forum as well. http://www.treeleaf.org/index.html

[Xangsamhua]

I've never been one to fall asleep, even when wanting to sometimes, but this sort of occurance in meditation can be one of two things as far as I know.

You've been very busy and possibly sleep deprived and starting meditating again sends a signal to the body it's time to catch up on rest, this often happens on the first couple of days of a meditation retreat. If so just take the time to unwind, meditate when you can but don't worry if you can't and sleep if you need to after a few days of taking it easy things should improve.

The other is known as sloth and torpor, it's the mind resisting the meditating process, doing whatever it can to avoid being in the present moment just meditating. If it's this you need to put forth more effort, do walking meditation, splash water on your face, be determined and keep at it, observe and learn what you can, until you get through it.

Sounds like you've got the first.

Thanks Bruce. I didn't use to fall asleep. It started just before the end of our school year here (I'm a school administrator) and is worse now since coming back from Oz, so it certainly seems fatigue-related.

The "sloth and torpor" possibility is a bit of a worry. I can relate to S + T, but really haven't been slothful about meditation practice since it started to click for me six months ago. Thanks for your advice. I'll keep a cool damp towel with me next sitting and will try to keep at it.

[camerata]

What time of day do you meditate? Supposedly, the best time is first thing in the morning when you feel fresh and your mind is clear, but morning is too noisy at my place.

[Xangsamhua]

What time of day do you meditate? Supposedly, the best time is first thing in the morning when you feel fresh and your mind is clear, but morning is too noisy at my place.

Usually after dinner at night, about 8 pm. Sometimes in the late morning or afternoon if it's not a working day.

I could sit early in the mornings, as I'm up very early on weekdays, but that's my reading (and coffee drinking) time - a routine of many years, so one I'm reluctant to change.

[norad]

.....Usually after dinner at night, about 8 pm....

no wonder why you falling to sleep easily.

After meal is the worse time for.... meditation.

Lord Buddha used the word....mao put ( literally means

the food you consumed made you drunk )

Early in the morning is the best time to meditate. Cause you already have had full sleep. It's best because you do not have anything to distract your mind. Then you meditate easier. Early morning meditation is the practice

using all over Thailand.

Please change your habit if you want to progress in your meditation. No reading before meditation because you will think of what you just read during meditation.

If you can not avoid then a cup of coffee may be allowed.

Be happy.

[Xangsamhua]

.....Usually after dinner at night, about 8 pm....

no wonder why you falling to sleep easily.

After meal is the worse time for.... meditation.

Lord Buddha used the word....mao put ( literally means

the food you consumed made you drunk )

Early in the morning is the best time to meditate. Cause you already have had full sleep. It's best because you do not have anything to distract your mind. Then you meditate easier. Early morning meditation is the practice

using all over Thailand.

Please change your habit if you want to progress in your meditation. No reading before meditation because you will think of what you just read during meditation.

If you can not avoid then a cup of coffee may be allowed.

Be happy.

Thanks Norad.

"After dinner" doesn't really mean after a meal. It's just a time-frame. I eat very little or nothing at night.

Still, I'm sure you're right: first thing in the morning would be best. But it's also the best time for reading, isn't it, and for exercise.

Having been in a profession in which I've had to do formal study to stay ahead of the game (for leadership positions), I early found that reading demanding or boring material was best done early in the day, before breakfast, so that's what I've done for the past 30 years. Coffee just goes with the territory. This is going to be a hard habit to break, even though I don't have to study or do any difficult reading any more.

Incidentally, the last couple of days have been better. An evening session last night and I was fully awake for 25 minutes (slight struggle towards the end). An afternoon session today lasted 20 minutes, but was a bit broken up.

Thanks again for your very sensible recommendations.

[Xangsamhua]

The other is known as sloth and torpor, it's the mind resisting the meditating process, doing whatever it can to avoid being in the present moment just meditating. If it's this you need to put forth more effort, do walking meditation, splash water on your face, be determined and keep at it, observe and learn what you can, until you get through it.

Sounds like you've got the first.

Hello Bruce

This advice below is similar to yours, I think. You're drawing on an ancient and noble tradition.

Master Keizan wrote (in his Zazen Yojinki about the year 1400) ...

Although we shouldn't be too anxious about bodily comforts, inadequate clothing, food and sleep are known as the "three insufficiencies" and will cause our practice to suffer. ...

... If dullness or sleepiness overcome your sitting, move to the body and open the eyes wider, or place attention above the hairline or between your eyebrows. If you are still not fresh, rub the eyes or the body. If that still doesn't wake you, stand up and walk, always clockwise. Once you've gone about a hundred steps you probably won't be sleepy any longer.The way to walk is to take a half step with each breath. Walk without walking, silent and unmoving.

If you still don't feel fresh after doing kinhin, wash your eyes and forehead with cold water. Or chant the Three Pure Precepts of the Bodhisattvas. Do something; don't just fall asleep. You should be aware of the Great Matter of birth and death and the swiftness of impermanence. What are you doing sleeping when your eye of the Way is still clouded? If dullness and sinking arise repeatedly you should chant, "Habituality is deeply rooted and so I am wrapped in dullness. When will dullness disperse? May the compassion of the Buddhas and Ancestors lift this darkness and misery."

From Treeleaf Zendo Forum http://www.treeleaf....php?f=23&t=2966

[Brucenkhamen]

"After dinner" doesn't really mean after a meal. It's just a time-frame. I eat very little or nothing at night.

Still, I'm sure you're right: first thing in the morning would be best. But it's also the best time for reading, isn't it, and for exercise.

Having been in a profession in which I've had to do formal study to stay ahead of the game (for leadership positions), I early found that reading demanding or boring material was best done early in the day, before breakfast, so that's what I've done for the past 30 years. Coffee just goes with the territory. This is going to be a hard habit to break, even though I don't have to study or do any difficult reading any more.

I think it's clear you give higher priority to your study and coffee than you do to your meditation. I'm not going to criticise that, as long as you are aware that's what you're doing and it's a choice you've made. I can tell from your posts on Thaivisa that this lifetime habit of giving priority to study has paid dividends.

For me I find first thing in the morning is the worst time for sitting, I find my attention quite scattered, wheras I find late evening before bedtime the best.

I assume you are (semi?) retired now so I think it would be worthwhile using that as an opportunity to experiment with your routine. In practise it's a good idea to always be pushing your boundaries in one way or another.

[Xangsamhua]

I think it's clear you give higher priority to your study and coffee than you do to your meditation. I'm not going to criticise that, as long as you are aware that's what you're doing and it's a choice you've made. I can tell from your posts on Thaivisa that this lifetime habit of giving priority to study has paid dividends.

Yes, from all I know about Buddhist practice, I think a dedicated practitioner would give priority to meditation, allowing for circumstances, of course (new mothers, etc.).

For me I find first thing in the morning is the worst time for sitting, I find my attention quite scattered, whereas I find late evening before bedtime the best.

I guess this reflects your circumstances.

I assume you are (semi?) retired now so I think it would be worthwhile using that as an opportunity to experiment with your routine. In practise it's a good idea to always be pushing your boundaries in one way or another.

Alas (?), no. Still working a ten-hour day, though on a Thai school calendar, so I get some extended breaks.

Edited April 19, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[cheeryble]

i was myself taught some anti-sleep techniques like observing the breath high in the body (the opening of the nostrils), "smashing" through it mentally, keeping the temperature down, "consider the consequences" and so on.

What I decided for myself and when I became a teacher taught onwards is that the consequences are not as bad as getting fed up with trying to meditate whilst suffering with overtiredness. if you are sleepy it's probably because your body's ready for it. So take a damned nap there and then.

If you're lucky you'll develop an ability like some others to just let yourself go mindfully, have a few refreshing minutes, and wake up mindfully and get on with the job in hand, your meditation practise.

Bon chance

Cheeryble

ps: The opposite of observing the breath high in the body can be useful.....

If feeling hyper or even adrenal, as sometimes will happen, I inwardly look for and observe the very lowest point I can feel subtly and more subtly moving. It is steadying and works.

[Xangsamhua]

i was myself taught some anti-sleep techniques like observing the breath high in the body (the opening of the nostrils), "smashing" through it mentally, keeping the temperature down, "consider the consequences" and so on.

What I decided for myself and when I became a teacher taught onwards is that the consequences are not as bad as getting fed up with trying to meditate whilst suffering with overtiredness. if you are sleepy it's probably because your body's ready for it. So take a damned nap there and then.

If you're lucky you'll develop an ability like some others to just let yourself go mindfully, have a few refreshing minutes, and wake up mindfully and get on with the job in hand, your meditation practise.

Bon chance

Cheeryble

ps: The opposite of observing the breath high in the body can be useful.....

If feeling hyper or even adrenal, as sometimes will happen, I inwardly look for and observe the very lowest point I can feel subtly and more subtly moving. It is steadying and works.

Thanks Cheeryble for this helpful advice. Observing the breath and highest and lowest points is something I'll try. I do also find that sometimes short dozing is not much of an interruption and I can just "get on with the job". Other times, yes, it's better to just take a nap and come back to sitting later, or tomorrow.

[rockyysdt]

I concur X.

As I get older, I've noticed an afternoon nap does wonders.

It's vital that you don't over sleep as you can wake up with a headache.

Set the alarm for 50 - 60 minutes or get the other half to gently awaken you.

Just enough to energize you for the rest of the day/night, but not enough to lead to insomnia.

Most importantly your meditation experience will improve.

[Xangsamhua]

I concur X.

As I get older, I've noticed an afternoon nap does wonders.

It's vital that you don't over sleep as you can wake up with a headache.

Set the alarm for 50 - 60 minutes or get the other half to gently awaken you.

Just enough to energize you for the rest of the day/night, but not enough to lead to insomnia.

Most importantly your meditation experience will improve.

I'm looking forward to the days I can take an afternoon nap (though I've been known to doze off at my desk at work occasionally). Setting a time-limit would be essential, I think. A nap followed by a good session of late afternoon sitting sounds good. Real good.

[cheeryble]

I've had a nap almost every day for donkey's years but rarely for 50-60 minutes which I find rather difficult to recover from and sleep-stopping at night.

For me just a couple of minutes may be enough, and between 5 and 15 is just dandy and I'm still at it until two a.m. or more most mornings....

Cheeryble

ps: Xang the lowest point found moving subtly may be way below what you would expect of the breath could be down towards the perineum and quite spread out.....unlike the nasal hair focus at the tip of the nostrils.

Edited April 21, 2011 by cheeryble

[khaowong1]

"After dinner" doesn't really mean after a meal. It's just a time-frame. I eat very little or nothing at night.

Still, I'm sure you're right: first thing in the morning would be best. But it's also the best time for reading, isn't it, and for exercise.

Having been in a profession in which I've had to do formal study to stay ahead of the game (for leadership positions), I early found that reading demanding or boring material was best done early in the day, before breakfast, so that's what I've done for the past 30 years. Coffee just goes with the territory. This is going to be a hard habit to break, even though I don't have to study or do any difficult reading any more.

I think it's clear you give higher priority to your study and coffee than you do to your meditation. I'm not going to criticise that, as long as you are aware that's what you're doing and it's a choice you've made. I can tell from your posts on Thaivisa that this lifetime habit of giving priority to study has paid dividends.

For me I find first thing in the morning is the worst time for sitting, I find my attention quite scattered, wheras I find late evening before bedtime the best.

I assume you are (semi?) retired now so I think it would be worthwhile using that as an opportunity to experiment with your routine. In practise it's a good idea to always be pushing your boundaries in one way or another.

I'm just like you Bruce, I find first thing in the mornings is my worst time to meditate. I usually do some in the afternoons and then my best meditations before bed. I usually, almost always, take a shower before hand to wake my self up. At a temple, it's pretty hard to get any free time in the mornings. Bindabot at day break, breakfast then chanting, and it seems like every person in the neighborhood wants to come by in the morning to chat or get help with their daily problems. So, it's prior to bed for me.

[lungmi]

I go the natural way. The vegative nerve system goes down when you get old. The adaptation to wheather changes, to stress is reduced, It takes more time. It has nothing to do with meditation practice.

I have the same problems. I make walking meditation, drink a lot of green tea with glucose sugar and put the tip of my tongue up in my mouth to connect the two main meridians of lom pran (acupuncture points). It works.

When sitting meditation, I use the zazen seat, the spine is automatically upright, impossible to sleep.

[Xangsamhua]

When sitting meditation, I use the zazen seat, the spine is automatically upright, impossible to sleep.

Yes, very good. I'm using a low "bean"-filled ottoman/pouffe at the moment. Must try to get a zafu and zabuton.

Rev Taigu from Treeleaf Zendo talks about it here:

Edited April 28, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[lungmi]

When sitting meditation, I use the zazen seat, the spine is automatically upright, impossible to sleep.

Yes, very good. I'm using a low "bean"-filled ottoman/pouffe at the moment. Must try to get a zafu and zabuton.

Rev Taigu from Treeleaf Zendo talks about it here:

Some photos of the seat. I made a small production in Germany for pregnant women together with midwives to calm lower back pain the last months of pregnancy.

Very important is to open the body, the knees must be outside, the big toes connected a little bit for energy flow (like the tip of the tongue with the palate). It works.

[Xangsamhua]

When sitting meditation, I use the zazen seat, the spine is automatically upright, impossible to sleep.

Yes, very good. I'm using a low "bean"-filled ottoman/pouffe at the moment. Must try to get a zafu and zabuton.

Rev Taigu from Treeleaf Zendo talks about it here:

Some photos of the seat. I made a small production in Germany for pregnant women together with midwives to calm lower back pain the last months of pregnancy.

Very important is to open the body, the knees must be outside, the big toes connected a little bit for energy flow (like the tip of the tongue with the palate). It works.

Ah, different from what I had in mind. I was thinking of cushions. What you've designed looks pretty good. The seat at an angle is consistent with the placing of the zafu beneath and behind the buttocks rather than fully underneath.

PS Have now read most of the Relocalization of Buddhism in Thailand text you've recommended and will comment in a day or so in the other thread. (It's a very good article!)

[bodhi8412]

Check out this video it may help.

http://www.youtube.com/user/dhammatube#p/c/768ACC9E7E2740DB/5/sB3cUVxfYBA

[rockyysdt]

<br>Some photos of the seat. I made a small production in Germany for pregnant women together with  midwives to calm lower back pain the last months of pregnancy. <br>Very important is to open the body, the knees must be outside, the big toes connected a little bit for energy flow (like the tip of the tongue with the palate). It works.

Nice job L.

I made one with hinges for easier storage when traveling.

My prototype (pic attached) was made out of hardwood.

Although nice, I moved to pine for sustainability and much lighter to carry around.

Edited May 4, 2011 by rockyysdt