What Would You Do?

[zaz]

Muslim apologists = cowards

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Say that to my face....or would you prefer hiding behing the cushion of your computer/internet with you inflamatory remarks?

Edited October 2, 2005 by zaz

[britmaveric]

Muslim apologists = cowards

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Say that to my face....or would you prefer hiding behing the cushion of your computer/internet with you inflamatory remarks?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Truth hurts?

[zaz]

Muslim apologists = cowards

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Say that to my face....or would you prefer hiding behing the cushion of your computer/internet with you inflamatory remarks?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Truth hurts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Come on brit, truth? How are they (me?) cowards? You must explain this one please.

[Belfastboy]

have to agree with Britmaveric and nham kao....silence of muslim leaders and the muslim community in times of islamic bombings is deafening....the silence says it all....

it happened in Northern Ireland when the IRA was murdering people....so called irish-americans were silent and some even funded the terrorists campaign......

god i hate people like this..

guns dont kill people, minds do.....

[zaz]

Maybe I don't understand the term "Muslim apologists"....anyone?

[britmaveric]

have to agree with Britmaveric and nham kao....silence of muslim leaders and the muslim community in times of islamic bombings is deafening....the silence says it all....

it happened in Northern Ireland when the IRA was murdering people....so called irish-americans were silent and some even funded the terrorists campaign......

god i hate people like this..

guns dont kill people, minds do.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Belfast - spot on! Without support from the Muslim world - these insects would be powerless and we wouldnt even be having this discussion.

[zaz]

Belfast - spot on! Without support from the Muslim world - these insects would be powerless and we wouldnt even be having this discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

UNBELIEVEABLE!!!!!!!!!!! Support?? Come on pleeeease!! I am absolutely gobsmacked!! So you think the Muslim world supports terrorism with no reservation it seems?! This is why the future seems so disturbing because of statements such as these. OK what exactly should the non-terrorist Muslim world do?

[Neeranam]

Do more than condemn them.

[britmaveric]

Zaz - why isnt the Muslim world doing smth about it? They know who these people are. They support them, finance them and protect them. Why aren't mullahs, leaders in the muslim world and populace speaking out against these criminals? We hear silence and nothing more.

Seriously this could all end if people starting turning these scumbags in, but instead nothing.

Edited October 2, 2005 by britmaveric

[zaz]

Zaz - why isnt the Muslim world doing smth about it? They know who these people are. They support them, finance them and protect them.  Why aren't mullahs, leaders in the muslim world and populace speaking out against these criminals? We hear silence and nothing more.

Seriously this could all end if people starting turning these scumbags in, but instead nothing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Brit this is it mate, exactly what should they do? You're not right, we do not know who these people are and where they are because I suppose to them we are just as likely to hand them in as you are. Mullah's, Imams are speaking against them, they are educating us the fact that their ways are the wrong ways. It's not fair to say that we are sat in silence when we are not.

I can tell you that from the Muslim community itself. We are scared, I am scared of terrorists/terrorism because at the end of the day I myself know that one day I could well be sat on a bus/train/plane going about my own business and that motha fckin terrorist sat next to me with a bomb up his arse isn't going to give a flying sht whether he's sat next to a Muslim and Jew a Christian or whatever because he's going to blow himself and a few others regardless!!! Yes if I knew who he was I'd turn him in, if I knew where he was I'd tell someone, why oh why on earth would I or anyone else who values their own life possibly possible want to shield this &lt;deleted&gt; that would one day kill me without thinking twice?!!

hhhh I'll get some breath now....

[The_Moog]

Muslim community

Jemaah Islamiyah is Arabic for 'Muslim Community' actually

[britmaveric]

Muslim community

Jemaah Islamiyah is Arabic for 'Muslim Community' actually

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[zaz]

Muslim community

Jemaah Islamiyah is Arabic for 'Muslim Community' actually

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm striving to think how it's a laughing matter.......

[Slim Chance]

BELFASTBOY:

Sorry that you’ve suffered so and I sympathize with anyone who has been through the pain you describe.

That said, I can’t help but notice that when you speak of the victims of sectarian violence in northern Ireland, you refer exclusively to the IRA as the perpetrators.

In reading about recent Irish history and following the news for a good long time, everything I see claims the deaths are about 50/50 as far as responsibility goes; half committed by the pro united Ireland side and half committed by the pro England side. On the pro Ireland side, though the IRA is/has been obviously the largest and most powerful force, there are several other para-military groups active. Not to mention the many deaths attributed directly to British military and British intelligence in addition to those committed by fanatical protestant extremists and security forces.

It may seem like a minor point, but I wonder why you fail to point this out and omit responsibility for these thousands of deaths to any group other than the IRA?

Do these comments reflect your own politics, or, are they simply oversight?

[Indo-Siam]

I am sick and tired of hearing the terrorist apologists use old history to justify 2005 savage butchery of innocents.

I was nominally raised as a "Christian" - meaning - as an infant born in USA, but raised in Germany - I was taught English by a fundamentalist Christian grandmother, by reading "bible stories" - literally. The English I learned before I returned to the USA at age 4+ was "bible stories." By about age ten, I had decided that the Christian religion was utterly ridiculous - as a religion. Later, I went out of my way to enroll in studies of "comparative religion" - covering everything - Christian, Jewish, Islam, Hindu, Shinto, Confucianism - my assigned thesis was on Zoroastrianism. I found all of them to be ancient superstition - dressed up to give modern adherents a "guiding light". The one conclusion I reached was that all of the religions basically had THE SAME RULES OF SOCIAL AND ETHICAL CONDUCT - be honest, respect your elders, don't kill people, etc. They just had different ceremonies - and different sacred "prophets".

Later, living in a nominally Christian country, I took a deep look into the long-term history of Christianity - and that study ABSOLUTELY cleansed me of ANY desire to affiliate with that religion. Christianity has an utterly brutal and unforgiveable history of terror - in Latin America, in the Middle East, and in Asia - during the age of European colonization. Utterly horrible - and equivalent to the modern day OUTRAGES of Islam.

Well - my friends - the fact that some other religion commtted outrages 250 years ago does not excuse barbaric, heinous conduct today by any other religion.

Every himan being alive today will live ALL of their existence in the future. All of it. The future starts immediately. Screw the distant past - and the past more than five years ago. It is a new world. Only barbarians want to return the world - forcibly - to some "golden age" 800 years ago.

One of the reasons I settled in Thailand was because my past studies led me to believe that the Buddhist religion is one of the "cleanest" with respect to having no history of butchering large numbers of people simply because they were non-believers. I am not a practicing Buddhist, but I respect the tolerance and inclusiveness of the religion.

For about 15 years, my profession was as a soldier. I was academically schooled in the "art and science" of warfare - having to study every significant military campaign in the history of mankind. I accept that nations and peoples use armies and warfare to carry out foreign policy. I served in the military of a country that is absolutely unique in that - 60 years ago - after the most destructive war in this planet's history - the leading victorious power rebuilt the two defeated powers - from utter devastation - to become two of the most successful nations on earth, within one generation. My mother was from one of those defeated nations.

I don't know about the twisted concepts of some people who have written in this, and simlar threads. My gut feel is that the main participants of this discussion forum come from about 35 different nations, with various backgrounds. Certainly, many of them are not very well disposed toward the government of the United States. So be it - I respect their greivances. But - I doubt that anyone on this board tastes fear that the USA will harm them in Bangkok. Or that the "global Jewish conspiracy" will harm them. Or "Communism." Or the "Shining Path Guerrillas of Peru." Or the warlords of Mogadishu. Or - the influences of Bhuddism in Thailand. But - I do believe that numerous people on this board fear the psycopathic murderers of Islam - right here in Thailand. That is what this thread is all about. It is not about fear of IRA terrorists, or Marxist terrorist, or Vikings, or US Marines on a pillaging expedition. Or depleted Uranium projectiles. Or sadistic US national guard criminals. Readers are afraid of LUNATIC MUSLIM TERRORIST MURDERERS. That is the main kind of terrorist threat to educated English-speaking people everywhere on earth right now.

When the murderous psycopathic lunatics have been purged from the Islamic ranks - by their own fellow Muslims - THEN I will have respect and willingness to listen to what greivances exist - because all of life - family life, business life, and social life - is about making compromises, and finding common ground. But not at gunpoint - or with body parts splattered around you.

If Islam wants to operate by jungle law - then so be it. But - this puts all Muslims in fatal peril, right from the start. Because - other than oil - the Islamic world has precious little going for it in a modern world. That is the only resaon I can think of why the Islamic extremists want to drag the entire world back into the 12th century.

I do not know who is behind the Wikipedia - but I find the brief history at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Thailand_insurgency to be informative. My one comment is that references to the southern provinces being "poor" leave me cold. I do not for one minute feel that Pattani is "poorer" than Sisaket - or Mukdahan - or Nan provinces. The south controls the entire world's supply of natural rubber. It is also a world-leading processor of seafood, and of - to my surprise - pineapples. Natural gas is big business - as is fishing. Trade with Malaysia must be as important as trade with Cambodia, Laos, or Myanmar - but nowhere near as spread out (diffused) as on Thailand's. Northern, Eastern, or Western borders.

The new Commander of the Thai Army is a Muslim - let's see what he can do about handling the southern turmoil.

Indo-Siam

[craigt3365]

zaz: I understand what you are saying, but I also understand the other side. If every mullah or imamn issued a fatwa against this, it would stop. Plain and simple. I know that is not an easy thing to do, but it would sure do the trick, right? The Muslim community in London has indicated it stood by too long as radicals spewed their BS. Now they are doing something about it, but it is too late. It is going to take a long time to turn this around. And it begins with education....

[britmaveric]

Very elequent post Indo-siam!!! I'm in total agreement with you.

[Nam Kao]

Bottom line their goal is to convert all people to Islam or kill them off

[zaz]

Bottom line their goal is to convert all people to Islam or kill them off

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks Nam Kao for your usual valueable comments...

[zaz]

zaz: I understand what you are saying, but I also understand the other side.  If every mullah or imamn issued a fatwa against this, it would stop.  Plain and simple.  I know that is not an easy thing to do, but it would sure do the trick, right?  The Muslim community in London has indicated it stood by too long as radicals spewed their BS.  Now they are doing something about it, but it is too late.  It is going to take a long time to turn this around.  And it begins with education....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's never too late, let's hope not anyway, we mustn't give up hope when there's so much at stake. I'm no Muslim leader but I'll sure do my bit when and where I can, every little helps (thanks Tesco...). It's what I've been saying all along....education is what's needed.

[opothai]

I would invade a non-threatening country with plenty of oil, bomb the population to smithereens and start a major civil/holy war of epic porportions.

......And, oh yeah, I would spout a lot of mindless rhetorical B.S. about never giving in to terrorism and pound my chest a lot. That would do a lot of good. Right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wow great post

that adds a lot to this thread well done

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I thought it added a very pleasant bit of remarkably ON TOPIC humour to an otherwise serious thread.

Your post, on the other hand, well... Let´s make a list:

1. Was criticising in a non constructive manner.

2. Was not even posted with the slightest suggestion of humour (to at least "lighten up" the criticism.

3. Tells us you are insecure.

4. Tells us you like to dig your own grave and look silly.

5. Really quite makes you look like a &lt;deleted&gt;.

Yours Truly,

Klazy Kayo the Krown.

PS: For the benefit of Opothai, and the mod for this thread, please note that the above finger pointer has not made one post regarding the OP, and had he/she done so, I owuld not have typed a word. As the above is his/her ONLY post on this thread, i feel it is not innapropriate..

PPS: In a revision of my earlier post... WHat would I do.... Have a drink.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i was reading the post as it was interesting, as i had nothing of interest to post i did not post, obviously unlike some

if my comments upset you as you can see my sarcasm is obvously not funny

then ever so sorry.

and you are obviously some sort of pshyciatrist and not a clown

[icecubes]

Bottom line their goal is to convert all people to Islam or kill them off

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well all the time religion wants to run around the world with guns and bombs

we will never be completely safe.

Religion great stuff. Not

[Rinrada]

I leave in a flash if they started bombing Khon Kaen. If they start bombing Bangkok, I really don't understand why all you guys would stay, all this "never let the terrorists win" crap. It's not even your country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Whereas i would not agree entirely with this i certainly understand that as and when I was an expat unless i had real reason to stay in a dodgy situation i recon that as in said previous situations I would be first in line at the departure gate to go...

Remember on one delightfull occasion (squatting under a table on the dog and bone)I was informed by a British Ambassador to F..k Off out of it. ..charming.

In your own country however I think you might behave differently and see things in a different light but seriously (and I hope it never happens)what would you really do if you woke tomorrow morning and the headlines shouted that suicide bombers had set off devices at say Don Muang Airport,the Sky Train/Underground,the Grand Palace,Hulalumpom railway staion and half a dozen buses in the center of Bangkok.

[Fast Eddie]

When the murderous psycopathic lunatics have been purged from the Islamic ranks - by their own fellow Muslims - THEN I will have respect and willingness to listen to what greivances exist - because all of life - family life, business life, and social life - is about making compromises, and finding common ground.    But not at gunpoint - or with body parts splattered around you.

Indo-Siam

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think this is the key, the Muslims have to take responsibility for rooting out the evil in their midst. The lack of effort to do so, and the 'it's got nothing to do with us' attitude, is not good enough if they really want other people to be understanding.

[Indo-Siam]

When I refer to "Muslim apologists" (for the Muslim terrorists), I am referring to those who - time and again - and there are presently at least three active threads on this forum that contain the same ridiculous refrains - justify the actions of terrorist bombers because:

1) The US dropped atomic bombs on Japan

2) America practiced slavery up until 140 years ago

3) Timothy McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma City building

4) All the Jewish citizens of Isarel do not - en masse - swim out into the Mediterranean Sea and drown themselves

5) The Thais re-elected Thaksin as Thai PM

6) George Bush couldn't find any WMD in Iraq

7) America consumes so much oil

8) Some policemen in the UK shot the Brazilian guy in the Tube.

9) US defense contractors make too much money in Iraq

10) Catholic priests have been caught molesting little boys

11) Misfit American soldiers (now in prison) psychologically abused detained extremists at Abu Ghraib prison

etc. etc. etc. - ad nauseum.

The problem isn't evil, terrorist butchers, and the puppetmasters that orchestrate them - the problem is always someone else.

Personally, I'm no great fan of George Bush. But - he is a Saint compared to a lot of other nut cases in power - in North Korea, in Zimbabwe, in Iran - for that matter, about 80% of the Muslim nations of the world have nasty autocratic thugs in charge - and I'm talking about the Arab nations. Indonesia has a good leader, Malaysia a fairly good one - and I even have respect for Musharraf in Pakistan - who is the ultimate case of "caught between a rock and a hard place".

The US military is always being harrassed about "collateral damage" - innocent civilians being caught up in the crossfire. The US is sensitive about this - and it is unfortunate when innocents suffer.

The terrorists - on the other hand - wage warfare that is virtually nothing other than deliberately causing 100% intentional collatetal damage - they do not even have "military" targets. It is planned, intentional, evil targeting of innocent civilians. To me, it is orders of magnitude worse than unintentional collateral damage.

The Muslim terror network seems to believe that they are systematically leading their religion to glorious domination of the earth - and will "conquer" the non-Islamic world. Me and a lot of other people in that non-Islamic world are trying to communicate to the greater Islamic population of the earth that the outcome of this increasing terror campaign is NOT going to be the greater glory of Islam. In fact, it is more likely that the rest of the world is going to reach the collective conclusion that your entire religion needs to be exterminated. Right here in Thailand - if the outrages get extreme enough, and the carnage spreads to Bangkok, there are going to be some Thai and western casualties - but there is going to be absolute doom descending upon the Muslim population of Thailand. Not from me - or the other subscribers to this board. 60,000,000 Thai buddhists will take the matter into their own hands. The intellectuals may be talking about national reconciliation. The Thai working people are talking a different line. You push them far enough, and they will eliminate the Muslim problem - but it won't be pretty.

Personally, I'd let the three provinces go - they are poorly assimilated, and not worth the anguish. But - it is not my decision to make.

Indo-Siam

[deus ex machina]

zaz: I understand what you are saying, but I also understand the other side.  If every mullah or imamn issued a fatwa against this, it would stop.  Plain and simple.  I know that is not an easy thing to do, but it would sure do the trick, right?  The Muslim community in London has indicated it stood by too long as radicals spewed their BS.  Now they are doing something about it, but it is too late.  It is going to take a long time to turn this around.  And it begins with education....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's never too late, let's hope not anyway, we mustn't give up hope when there's so much at stake. I'm no Muslim leader but I'll sure do my bit when and where I can, every little helps (thanks Tesco...). It's what I've been saying all along....education is what's needed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Zaz,

I fear you are on a hiding to nothing here.Most of the posters on this thread would reject any notion of culpability in the current woes besetting the world if it meant that they would have to abandon the quaint fiction that western democracies are inherently just and always do the right thing.In their world the good guys wear white hats and the bad guys are,well, let's be frank,muslims.The status quo that exists is something that just happened yesterday and history is inevitably dismissed as being irrelevant, particularly when it threatens to shake them out of their complacency. It's a cultural thing and best ignored.

Like you, I'm still wrestling with the equation; muslim apologists=cowards.

Endure in peace

D.

[meemiathai]

Thanks for the input, IS.

Nice.

[Slim Chance]

INDO-SIAM

Your resume as former professional soldier and free-lance student of religion are certainly impressive and your lengthy messages prove that you’ve devoted much thought to the subject at hand. The simplicity of your analysis and your solution has struck a chord with some of the more heady types who frequent this board and earned you much admiration.

Thanks very much for explaining how the responsibility to quell the terrorist problems lies with the muslims. My question is, who are THE MUSLIMS?

Those I’ve spoken to live in more fear than I can imagine of not only being caught in the crossfire, but becoming a victim simply because they are muslim. And may I add that they in no way support the extremists. But they certainly have problems accepting the role of your former army and the west‘s plans for the mid-east. Does this make them the responsible and hated apologists?

You scoff at the ludicrousness of simpletons who, among other things, lay blame to the old vast jewish conspiracy theory, but in the end -- and correct me if I’m missing something --you lay blame at and all but hint of a vast muslim conspiracy, as if muslims unlike catholics, jews or baptists can all be painted with a single brush.

As appealing as your ‘today is the first day of the rest of your life’ theory seems on the surface, how do people who’ve lived as refugees for generations in their own country put this advice to use? Do you really expect the Palestinians to hop out of bed in the morning with a brand new attitude and a love for the west?

You don’t think grudges should last 250 or 600 years, okay, please elaborate; should we draw the line at 50? 40? 30 years? Should we make it 7 like the old statute of limitations? Your theory, your call.

On the surface the confidence of your posts and your implied disdain for violence appears rock-solid. But the more I examine them, the more I sense the cracks of what feels like colonial mentality rising from the foundations.

Is there such a thing as a colonial apologist?

[zaz]

When I refer to "Muslim apologists" (for the Muslim terrorists), I am referring to those who - time and again - and there are presently at least three active threads on this forum that contain the same ridiculous refrains - justify the actions of terrorist bombers because:

1)  The US dropped atomic bombs on Japan

2)  America practiced slavery up until 140 years ago

3)  Timothy McVeigh blew up the Oklahoma City building

4)  All the Jewish citizens of Isarel do not - en masse - swim out into the Mediterranean Sea and drown themselves

5)  The Thais re-elected Thaksin as Thai PM

6)  George Bush couldn't find any WMD in Iraq

7)  America consumes so much oil

8)  Some policemen in the UK shot the Brazilian guy in the Tube.

9)  US defense contractors make too much money in Iraq

10)  Catholic priests have been caught molesting little boys

11)  Misfit American soldiers (now in prison) psychologically abused detained extremists at Abu Ghraib prison

etc. etc. etc. - ad nauseum.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is NOT A SINGLE PERSON on this forum who supports terrorism - I invite anyone to state clearly if they do....

The only people who show any support for violence are hate-mongering war-mongers who's posts are just full of one-sided hatred.

[Galong]

Bottom line their goal is to convert all people to Islam or kill them off

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well all the time religion wants to run around the world with guns and bombs

we will never be completely safe.

Religion great stuff. Not

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You hit the nail directly on the head Icecube!

I have no problem with anyone believing anything they wish, but personal beliefs aside, organized religion is truly the most evil thing on the planet.