Thai Pronouns

[Kilgore Trout]

Although my Thai is pretty good, there is one thing that really irks me (perhaps I am being over sensitive, but oh well, sue me) and that is when I am having a conversation with someone in Thai; every word is understood from both speakers (in Thai) but the Thai person insists on using the pronouns "I" and "you" (English).

I have asked Thais why they are doing this and the response is usually along the lines of "you speak English," or "you are falang"

I have had this experience with all classes of Thais, including educated ones.

My suspicion is that because the pronoun you use in Thai denotes status etc., they either don't know how to classify you or don't want to give you a status higher than them (or lower because older people usually won't call you nong either). Perhaps I am wrong.

Could others share their experience with this phenomenon; how do you quash this practice with someone you are speaking with in a polite way that is conducive to more conversation?

I sometimes feel that if I explain myself and why it irritates me to a Thai they may feel I am lecturing them, which I don't want.

Thanks for your polite responses :jap:

[mikenyork]

There are likely going to be a lot of varying responses to this question. I myself struggled for years to try to understand why I didn't fit into my family's pronoun structure (in my case, I was invariably referred to in both second and third person as Khun.....). It's pretty mysterious to me, partly because immigrant Chinese are automatically fitted into a standard family pronoun structure (although the pronouns used are often Chinese, rather than Thai--Je, Sim, Muay, Tii, etc.).

Eventually, this is the explanation I worked out for myself. Thais have a tribal identity that starts with fellow Thais, works outward to include Laos, other SE Asians, Chinese Japanese, Koreans, Filipino's, etc. This concept is hard for westerners, particularly Americans like myself, to understand. White Americans are taught that tribal identity is positively evil (Nazi, KKK, White Supremacist, etc.). Therefore, we are "outside" the tribe. "I" and "You" are a recognition of this fact. It isn't impolite. It doesn't show a lack of respect (at least not in and of itself). But it does reflect a mental/emotional boundary that, in my experience at least, is pretty much not crossable.

This is all just IMHO. I understand Thai WORDS pretty well. ThaiLAND???? Oh...that might be a problem.

[Hardie]

Hey, none of us came to Thailand for the purity of intellect, now, did we? Why do Thais suck up English like a dirty sponge? Because they're Thai, that's why! They're doing just what they did with Khmer before this, and Sanskrit before that. In Thai Town LA Thais 'you' each other all the time, and that pronoun only, maybe because it avoids some of the class/sex/age distinctions inherent in the other options...

[Kilgore Trout]

Hey, none of us came to Thailand for the purity of intellect, now, did we? Why do Thais suck up English like a dirty sponge? Because they're Thai, that's why! They're doing just what they did with Khmer before this, and Sanskrit before that. In Thai Town LA Thais 'you' each other all the time, and that pronoun only, maybe because it avoids some of the class/sex/age distinctions inherent in the other options...

So what you are saying is "just accept it"?

[Kilgore Trout]

I am surprised at the lack of responses on this thread; I thought there would be more.

Surely this is something anyone learning Thai has dealt with before. Oh well, I will keep plugging away

[sbk]

I've never had anyone refer to me using English pronouns.

I get called by my name or my nickname. What I have always struggled with coming to terms with is Thai women referring to themselves by their own name instead of saying I.

[Kilgore Trout]

I've never had anyone refer to me using English pronouns.

I get called by my name or my nickname. What I have always struggled with coming to terms with is Thai women referring to themselves by their own name instead of saying I.

Thanks for sharing. With people I know its usually the same as you (use name in 3rd person), even though if a Thai was speaking to another Thai there would be "pee" or "nong" in front of the name, but that doesn't really bother me.

With people you don't know though, the I and you thing usually happens, or sometimes no pronoun at all and just the finger pointed in the face (very rude with respect to Thai culture), I have even heard "chan" referred to as "tee nee" and koon (or whatever pronoun for you) said as "tee nan."

I honestly don't think its anything to do with "Thai culture" or "Thai-ness," I attribute it more to a lack of awareness or failure to think things through.

[Tod Daniels]

The thing that threw me early on was the near complete absence of personal pronoun usage when speaking in the first person! It is understood by every Thai present that the speaker is making the statement them self so no pronoun is used as its unstated in spoken Thai. I've found the use of nicknames when speaking in the first person far more common than using personal pronouns, but I've also heard ตัวเอง and even just เอง too.

Thankfully, going on six years here and I've NEVER EVER had a Thai point their finger at me (and would certainly ask 'em in Thai why they would do such a rude thing), if they did.

Now of course it goes without saying, MANY times I have heard Thai people use ultra colloquial personal pronouns ฉัน (even spoken by male speakers), เธอ, กู, มึง, and even the occasional มัน too. However this is usually observed among a very tight-knit social circle of close friends and NOT used if "outsiders" are present.

Nor have I heard, when sitting with my Thai close friends, people referring to themselves or others as "this" and "that". I'm not saying it doesn't happen, only that I've NEVER heard it.

If you encounter people you're not familiar with speaking to you in this manner; well, you're clearly runnin with different herd 'o Thais than I typically encounter.

Edited April 27, 2011 by tod-daniels

[Kilgore Trout]

The thing that threw me early on was the near complete absence of personal pronoun usage when speaking in the first person! It is understood by every Thai present that the speaker is making the statement them self so no pronoun is used as it’s unstated in spoken Thai. I've found the use of nicknames when speaking in the first person far more common than using personal pronouns, but I've also heard ตัวเอง and even just เอง too.

Thankfully, going on six years here and I've NEVER EVER had a Thai point their finger at me (and would certainly ask 'em in Thai why they would do such a rude thing), if they did.

Now of course it goes without saying, MANY times I have heard Thai people use ultra colloquial personal pronouns ฉัน (even spoken by male speakers), เธอ, กู, มึง, and even the occasional มัน too. However this is usually observed among a very tight-knit social circle of close friends and NOT used if "outsiders" are present.

Nor have I heard, when sitting with my Thai close friends, people referring to themselves or others as "this" and "that". I'm not saying it doesn't happen, only that I've NEVER heard it.

If you encounter people you're not familiar with speaking to you in this manner; well, you're clearly runnin’ with different herd 'o Thais than I typically encounter.

Most of the people I encounter this issue with are not in the "herd" I "run" with.

Since I consider myself somewhat of a lion, I guess I would have to run with a pride though, not a herd.

Thanks for sharing

[mikenyork]

We are talking about มัน here, right? I've never heard a Thai adult refer to a child in the third person using any other word. Not in person. Not on TV soap operas. Worked in a gov't school for two years. ALL teachers referred to all students using this term (for third person). I also hear Thais use this word for adults in the third person without apparently intending any particular disrespect. Two friends talking about a third friend will usually use มัน. I don't think this is limited in any way to the "under class" or "working girls". I think it's common in the language. What isn't common is for anyone to refer to their spouse this way, except working girls referring to their johns (and often as not to their farang husbands). Even then, many ex-working girls refer to their husbands as เขา. But kids---มัน every time.