Abhisit Aghast At Lack Of Knowledge

[anotheruser]

I wonder if you started selling calculators in Thailand that gave incorrect answers, how long would it take before someone noticed?

What, you mean you never noticed this???

[Somtamnication]

Not surprising. Thais believe the world revolves around them, not the other way around. My matthayom students have zero idea about WW2, Vietnam, about a farang defence minister under King Monghut in the late 1800s and where they are geographically.

The bulk of the local Thai teachers need to be fired or retired. Period.

[Fremann85]

They might want to rethink their "no fail" policy then and make the kids actually work at what they are doing, rather than paying for their "certificates" - i realize that is a "blanket" statement.

no fail policy due to be phased out in 2012, or so I'm told by a very high placed and respected teacher[my wife]

well,if so i think that no-one of my thai classmates is gonne get a degree, cuz they are studying accountings but they can even make a simple division like 0.78/6.97

[Fremann85]

I wonder if you started selling calculators in Thailand that gave incorrect answers, how long would it take before someone noticed?

What, you mean you never noticed this???

good joke;

[random]

he is surrounded by idiots every day, they are called his 'Cabinet', surely he must have noticed by now, although he is of the same standing and I guess as an idiot himself he fails to notice.

[dunkin2012]

who to blame? even Taksin's English is still Snake fish fish....then...

not surprised!....

there are 2 uni from Singapore in 200 world uni rankin'...in SE Asia..

imagine.......... how good the rest will be?

Judging by your postings - not very!!

I understand dunkins posts, takes a while to get the flavour but He's o.k..... if his posts are not to your liking , fine but why do you have to write about his style that way-everyones not perfect. and I am one of those and admit it !!!

thanks both of you. .ha ha........ ...................

[ginjag]

I wonder if you started selling calculators in Thailand that gave incorrect answers, how long would it take before someone noticed?

What, you mean you never noticed this???

good joke;

Ha Ha...and why do Thai calculators always give a higher price than most other calculators?

[culicine]

No the kids aren't stupid Mr Abhisit - it's the whole system that needs overhauling. Having taught here for over 10 years now, I've seen the whole range of students - some ready for university when they are in grade 10, to those in M6 with prathom level mathematics.

Some suggestions :-

*reduce the view of education as a business; reduce reliance on tutorial schools by students an parents. Students should get 95% of what they need to be successful on entrance exams at school only. There should be no need for tutorial schools - or only for the extremely slow, or extremely able.

* MoE to address problems in the curriculum - e.g. provide a range of courses in maths (4-5 courses), to suit range of ability of students.

*integrate technology into the classroom as far as possible -make the subjects interesting!!

*Better training and conditions for teachers

*Smaller class sizes

* no fail policy - my opinion is the students get the score they deserve; no need to make them repeat. This lets universities know their real ability - a zero (=50 under no fail) is the same as the student who worked their butt of and got the 50 by themselves. Currently the MoE will NOT accept failing grades from schools.

I have also heard that the no fail policy will be stopped in 2012. That should be a wakeup call to those students who like to sleep in class!!

the list goes on....

[AleG]

While it's good to seek better education at the university level, the most important thing is the very beginning; it's been proven that an early childhood with good intellectual stimulus leads to a smarter individual. A good kindergarten and early primary system would have a much more dramatic effect than better universities, to begin with because those two are (or should at least) be universal and mandatory, so every child would be benefited not only those who make it to third degree education; second if the "raw material" that actually gets to university is substandard it's nigh to impossible to make a good quality graduate out of it.

[blazes]

It's worth remembering that Abhisit went to England's most famous (and arguably best) school, Eton, just like Prince William. (Is Ab going to the wedding?) Ab then went on to Oxford. So, he is fluent in English and had a top-class education.

So,, no, he doesn't know <deleted> is going on in Thai education. The fact that he has noticed this little factoid may help in the long run.

[trisailer]

Here we go...why don't they do it like we do in the west? They must be stupid. Of course the're stupid. The Oxford educated, rich, had every opportunity PM should know. I question if he really called the citizens he represents stupid. If he did say that perhaps he should educate himself, Oxford failed to teach him a basic fact about genetics that says that it is the environment that determines success. Changing the environment is the role of the government, so I guess what he is really saying is that he is a failure, maybe he is the one who is stupid.

The stupidest people I know are well educated, had every opportunity and yes they can do calculus, but they can't think their way out of a paper bag. The smartest people I know can make something out of nothing. I know, I was kicked out of school in 8th grade, but made it to the top levels of the corporate ladder because my competition, who were "better educated" didn't have a clue.

My wifes uncle is among other things a building contractor. I visited one of his sites and was surprised at how little technology they had. They were building this beautiful Thai style home with hand tools. Intelligence is making the best use of the available resources and getting the job done. I would gladly take a dozen guys like our uncle over a dozen "engineers" that I got stuck with and had to spoon feed.

[trisailer]

Here's an example of stupid for you; the bastards that have all the opportunity and resources to get into a position of power and then use that power to enrich themselves and their "betters" while the little people are denied the basics of life. Look at what the education system in the US has wrought, fat, lazy, fearful, easily misled sheep. Yea....let's try to repeat that.

[jonclark]

I wonder if you started selling calculators in Thailand that gave incorrect answers, how long would it take before someone noticed?

What, you mean you never noticed this???

good joke;

Ha Ha...and why do Thai calculators always give a higher price than most other calculators?

Because they are made by the same company that makes taxi meters !!

[trisailer]

"Teachers leave those kids alone..." "we don't need no education..." currently, unexpectantly blasting in my ears. Good advice.

[Insight]

Did Abhisit really say "I can't believe that our children can be this stupid."?

He's clearly been spending too much time on ThaiVisa.

[rreddin]

AH well - the fugitive will make an election promise "I will make everyone have a Ph D within 1 year and a Professorship in two" ! i can just see his square face as he says it. Then he'll make Jatuporn education minister who will say "its part of the army coup to make people ignorant" - Thank God Abhisit at least has a grip on reality - wait till the PTP take over - then the uneducated will be goven a billion baht village fund to STAY ignorant - i see dark clouds ahead!!

Mr Abhisit appears to have woken up and seen the reality of the general education standards in Thailand. He, of course, was educated at Eaton College (one of the top two academic schools in the UK) and Oxbridge. Now that the Prime Minister realizes the truth of the situation, will anything constructive be done about it? I hope so, but there are no quick fixes.

Two examples illustrate the size of the challenge in teaching English. My 16 year old niece, who has been taught English throughout her school career, can barely read or speak the language, let alone write more than a short simple sentence. Whereas my (almost) 5 year old granddaughter, who has been sitting in on her mother's private English classes for about 6 months, speaks and reads English better than my 16 year old niece.

There was a time when entry to university in the UK required the student to be able to read, speak and write Latin. After that requirement was dropped, the number of Latin students declined to a very low level. Perhaps, making fluency in English a requirement for university entry will raise standards in Thailand.

No system of education is perfect as your post demonstrates. You must have missed the day they taught your fellow students how to stay on topic. Plese feel free to express your political prejudices in a more appropriate place.

[Pi Sek]

To get zero in a multiple-choice test, you actually have to try pretty dam_n hard.

That said, if academic aptitude and knowledge really started improving across the board, I imagine a few people in positions of authority might begin to get a little nervous...

In response to your first bit, I wondered about this too - just ticking the "A" column without reading the questions should get you around 25%. So I asked my staff, since some people getting zero suggests either the questions are not clearly put (not unlikely) or students are trying to fail (highly unlikely). They said that these questions have 4 correct answers and one of them is more correct than the other three - so three correct answers are wrong - and that getting zero in these tests is not so uncommon. (I thought it best to leave it at that point!)

I won't grant your second bit a response, other than suggesting you stop watching hollywood conspiracy movies.

[Just1Voice]

Two years ago I was invited to teach English at one of the (supposedly) better schools in Chiang Mai. I told them I wanted to observe for a week before making my decision, which they agreed to.

On Thursday the students were given a short, simple test that should not have taken more than 10 minutes or so to complete. At the end of 45 minutes, most of them still had not finished.

The next day, Friday, the teacher read out their grades, but did not give their test papers back. When I question her as to why she didn't do that, her reply was: "Oh, we never do that!" When I asked her to explain how the students were supposed to know and understand what they did wrong so they could learn from that and not make the same mistakes later, she looked at me in total confusion and said: "I don't know. This is just the way we do it."

A few months back there was an article in the papers that made the front pages. 80% of Thai teachers could not even pass the same tests they give their students on the subject they are supposed to be teaching. As usual, after a couple of days it got buried.

I used to say the education system here is a joke. But a joke is something which is supposed to be funny. Unfortunately, there is nothing funny about things here. Now I look at it and think of how sad it is that the children of Thailand are being denied decent educations because the system simply doesn't care. Those who can afford it send their children overseas. Those who can't are trapped in a system designed for failure.

Instead of buying used subs and other toys for the military, the money should be spent on completely revamping the education system in Thailand, but we all know that's not going to happen.

[IvanDobsky]

Some suggestions :-

*reduce the view of education as a business; reduce reliance on tutorial schools by students an parents. Students should get 95% of what they need to be successful on entrance exams at school only. There should be no need for tutorial schools - or only for the extremely slow, or extremely able.

* MoE to address problems in the curriculum - e.g. provide a range of courses in maths (4-5 courses), to suit range of ability of students.

*integrate technology into the classroom as far as possible -make the subjects interesting!!

*Better training and conditions for teachers

*Smaller class sizes

Some good suggestions. May I add:

*Teachers should be regularly monitored by the MoE. At least once per year for a week's worth of teaching. As far as I know, teachers here are rarely (if ever) monitored.

*Teachers should not be required to attend so many seminars, and therefore miss their classes, during the term.

According to the article, Abhisit said "relevant authorities should introduce measures that stop teachers being preoccupied with pursuing higher academic ranks. Since higher academic ranks mean higher salaries, many teachers spend far too much time and effort on their studies rather than on their students."

I couldn't agree more. The last two/three years have seen teachers amassing piles and piles of paperwork to be sent to the MoE to be assessed. Their paperwork alone decides if they get a promotion or not, no observation of lessons is required to see if it works in practice.

The teaching system needs reform. The curriculum too, leaves a lot to be desired. How can you get a pass in a foreign language if you are only required to circle a) c) or d)?? No speaking, listening or writing required. Bizarre.

[Bagwan]

At one time in my career in the computer mainframe manufacturing industry the recruitment and further education of graduates fell within my sphere of responsibility. The ignorance of the vast majority of applicants for positions never ceased to discomfort me. Not only did I have cause for concern regarding their standard of academic achievement and mental capabilities but also their total lack of understanding of the business world or the application of a measure of common sense.

When asked to divide 66.6 by one third and give the answer to the nearest whole number the usual response of candidates was to reach for a calculator or to ask if using one was permitted. The second most popular response was a reply of 22. I would guess that about 5% came up with the correct answer. So much for the UK education system that could no longer instill the simple rules of arithmetic and to apply them mentally! Those turning up for interview wearing jeans and trainers didn't get past my secretary, although she did allow one young man eating a hamburger to enter my office; she had a warped sense of humour. He had a busy schedule he said and was taking lunch on the fly. <deleted>?

We may all wax lyrical about the deficiencies of the Thai education system and justifiably so, but the phenomenon has much wider boundaries. I believe that the ignorant, uneducated and simply stupid of this world are in the majority and are out breeding the more intelligent and productive folk. We can all see the widening gulf between the haves and have nots on domestic and international levels, and a similar widening gulf is accelerating in the fields of education and technology. Science has advanced more in the past ten years than in the previous four and a half billion. Et tu, Thailand?

As has been pointed out the Government has to get its act together as must the professionals working in the education system, but a prime factor in producing clever knowledgeable young people is the support and interest afforded them by their parents. How many Thai adults are ambitious for their offspring? That is another nut that needs to be cracked.

[FOODLOVER]

Here's an example of stupid for you; the bastards that have all the opportunity and resources to get into a position of power and then use that power to enrich themselves and their "betters" while the little people are denied the basics of life. Look at what the education system in the US has wrought, fat, lazy, fearful, easily misled sheep. Yea....let's try to repeat that.

Yeah, right. How do you post about the US system. Did you attend? I went through the public education system and graduated from a world class university. I seem to be doing quite well. Fearful i am not! Easily misled, i am not! Fat, OK, maybe ate to much sheep but besides that doing great, thanks. As for saying that the American system would not be an improvement is a joke

Edited for grammatical and spelling errors (US educated)

Edited April 27, 2011 by FOODLOVER

[hansnl]

"I can't believe that our children can be this stupid."

- again bad English... he should have said 'uneducated',

He was just being straight and to the point, which as a politician is actually somewhat admirable.

I tell you what is stupid, when someone like me who won math contests understands calculus, statistics, differential equations... isn't considered qualified to teach math here because I left University early and didn't finish my degree. You can only help those that are ready to be helped.

University drop outs aren't usually given teaching jobs in most countries. Part of the importance of attending university is not just aptitude at a given field but the patience to see it to the end. If you were unwilling to put in the time into your own education how can we assume you will see to the needs of pupils? I am not completely in agreement with this but it is normal. Go anywhere else in the world that isn't a complete third world joke and tell them you didn't graduate but are good at math... you won't be considered. I do not really believe in the value society places on a degree but such is life. I am very good at Japanese characters but do not expect that I would be allowed to formally teach it just because of that.

I beg your pardon?

Are you saying that only University graduates, simply because they the managed to complete the course, put in the time as you say, are good teachers?

I gather you are a follower of the idea that paperwork equates ability?

I know lots of people without paperwork who are wonderful teachers.

But the number of graduates I know, finished the course and have the paperwork to prove their attendance, are academically educated an thinking on same levels, and are suitable for nothing.

How sad!

[cheeryble]

When asked to divide 66.6 by one third and give the answer to the nearest whole number the usual response of candidates was to reach for a calculator or to ask if using one was permitted. The second most popular response was a reply of 22. I would guess that about 5% came up with the correct answer.

I'm hoping the answer's 200!

He also emphasised that universities should instil morality and wisdom in their students.

....and whose chosen morality would that be?

This all reminds me of a motivated friend here in CM who was in a dept teaching English which had and extraordinary good result a 100% success rate over their first year with their first batch of students. The dept was assessed from higher up and they were themselves given 61% (I think it was). My friend was aghast and checked into it. The detail of the report gave the sole reason as minus 39% because they hadn't given enough emphasis to ceremony, rites and rituals etc !

[dumball]

One often reads of the over-use of pesticides etc by Thai farmers , should a cup of this produce more crops , we will use 2 cups and have a really big crop

Environmental Health Perspectives spent many years testing pesticides when it was found how detrimental lead was for the young brain , lead was banned in many things .

The resultant testing came up with facts that children exposed to an excess of pesticides , particularly in the pre-natal period , were found to have serious cognitive and learnng problems plus low I.Q's Thai are not particularly noted for food hygiene , most likely because of a lack of instruction in that area , this allows the resident pesticide to be ingested into the system , transferred to the suckling child , a very poor start to its life , which is then continued at an early age as they consume more pesticides via food intake

It should be noted that attention in this area is needed to go hand in hand with early child-hood education with fully trained pre-school staff preferably of the Montessori system .

[trisailer]

I am proud to say that like myself both of my kids are high school drop-outs. I hated grade school and my grades reflected that, but in 5h grade I had a teacher who turned me on to reading and opened up the world to me. My son developed a desire to learn through sailing and exploring the "education" system was killing him and I took him out and we explored the world together and home schooled him. He learned more in one year with me than in 10 in the school system. My daughter was a reader from a young age and the "education" system did everything in it's power to kill her desire to learn in her own way. Both have gone on to excell in their fields.

My wife is currently attending ABAC and it is a huge challange. She graduated at the top of her HS class, but from a village school. I'm guessing that she will, like me, graduate with a solid B- but she will succeed because she already has what they do not, can not, will not teach in "school"

One of the most successful people I know is a Thai woman who came to the US at 13 when her mother married a farang, she never completed school. She went to work in a Thai resturant as a dishwasher and absorbed everything. She now owns a string of very popularThai resturants and is a multi millionare.

[cheeryble]

When asked to divide 66.6 by one third and give the answer to the nearest whole number the usual response of candidates was to reach for a calculator or to ask if using one was permitted. The second most popular response was a reply of 22. I would guess that about 5% came up with the correct answer.

I'm hoping the answer's 200!

He also emphasised that universities should instil morality and wisdom in their students.

....and whose chosen morality would that be? The morality of those who won the Great Sperm Race? The morality of the Thai soap opera? My morality ?

This all reminds me of a motivated friend here in CM who was in a dept teaching English which had an extraordinary good result a 100% success rate over their first year with their first batch of students. The dept was assessed from higher up and they were themselves given 61% (I think it was). My friend was aghast and checked into it. The detail of the report gave the sole reason as minus 39% because they hadn't given enough emphasis to ceremony, rites and rituals etc !

Also brings to mind Thaksin when in power refreshingly saying that frankly he couldn't place ministers in a couple of ministries because he simply couldn't find anyone in the country up to the job.

Edited April 27, 2011 by cheeryble

[trisailer]

"As for saying that the American system would not be an improvement is a joke"

The joke is on you, bub. I can get a computer to do what you "graduates from top universities can do" I came up on my wits, could always find beancounters to crunch the numbers, but struggled to find "educated" people who could lead. I hired a lot of engineers from top universities in my time. Not one was a leader who could "make things happen" empty suits all. Wall St is currently full of them.

I love hubris, It makes my life a cake walk.

Edited April 27, 2011 by trisailer

[arrowsdawdle]

This may be by design when taken in consideration with the cultural indoctrination kids receive in schools. Thailand doesn't need any more chiefs. They need indians chained to the oars of industry.

[Somtamnication]

What people fail to see about this country´s education system is that it is designed to control the lower class. Cognitive and logical educative tools are not used except for the elite Thai Chinese. Very rare to see the darker ones make it. Subservience rules in this culture.

Just as the American style democracy will never work in Iraq or other middle eastern countries, it is failing here as well. Cultural, pure and simple.

[pisico]

Does Abhisit actually live in Thailand and interact with people there? If so this should come as no surprise.

Of course he doesn't. He lives in the same bubble as all the other members of the ruling class that is reactive to crisis and when they react it is done in a half-assed way at best.

A few examples:

1- In the classroom teachers and professors do not welcome questions or interaction. From the cradle Thais are indoctrinated in the idea that it is not polite to complain or ask many questions. Thai students in the classroom follow those cues through life. Even in a higher learning place such as universities, professors use microphones and PA systems not because of the size of the classroom but to overwhelm and drown questions. Apparently, an authoritarian mind interprets a question to elucidate a subject as a challenge to authority. Now the shortcomings are so appalling that cannot be ignored: a crisis in the making.

2- Swampy was number 10 on last years international airport ratings. The government vowed to make it one of the top 5 ones. This year Swampy hit number 13. The solution: the city link, the other rail link and, also keep the taxi scammers undisturbed, etc., until it becomes another crisis and someone dies.

3- The sidewalks are used mainly by unsupervised, uninspected, unregulated food stalls, vendors and motorcycles and marginally by pedestrians. But, in their infinite wisdom the city planners came up with another billion Baht idea: the Skywalk!

Wouldn't it be better, cheaper and civilized to respect the public thoroughfares, protect pedestrians and enforce municipal ordinances and rules? No, that would not be the Thai way. A rational approach such as that presupposes acceptance of errors in a land where saving face is the law by which all live.

That being said, it is refreshing to hear the statements from Abhisit about the failings of the Thai school system. I hope and believe that he is sincere and that his voice will make an impact in the educational Thai system. But in a country where the tail wags the dog, is that remotely possible hic et nunc?

I know that there will be nitpickers who will dissect and parse my post. For their information, no, I am not a Thai basher nor do I defend Thailand out of compulsion. What I enumerated is something current that we all can see if we are aware of this reality.

Edited April 27, 2011 by pisico