Alcoholism

[Patsycat]

A song for you my friends...

[Patsycat]

One of these days i shall die

[GrahamF]

They even have ladies only meetings. the only problem i have is meeting people that i know.

Remember, they are there for the same reason that you are. Alcohol, the great leveler. In my area, AA's are generally very conscious of others anonymity, I would hope it is the same where you are. FYI, usually at the start of a meeting the chairperson may ask if there is anyone attending their first AA meeting, if you like you can raise your hand and introduce yourself or not. I was scared shit_less at my first meeting, I had gotten out of detox that afternoon, and didn't know what to expect. With great trepidation I raised my hand and said "I'm Graham and I'm an alcoholic," funnily enough I found it to be very empowering to admit to a bunch of strangers that I am an alcoholic. The group was totally welcoming and in fact changed the topic of the evening to early recovery. Afterwards, a number of people approached me to give me encouragement, a meeting book, which I still have, asked if I needed rides to other meetings, etc. Another thing I have discovered is that when I tell my non-AA friends that I am in AA and sober, even the ones that I was a jerk to when I was drinking, every one of them has been supportive and happy for me.

I agree with Mobi about giving a number of meetings a chance, sometimes they are good and sometimes not so much, I would also suggest that you try out different meetings as well. I'm sure you'll find the right ones for you.

[Mobi]

Thanks Mobi.

Well I went out today and had a wee drinky poo with a friend. And we talked about the forthcoming Patsy going to AA. My friend being an AA member himself.

So, I went to pay the bill in the rather lovely terrace with lots of vines and such, to discover that some pillock had nicked my wallet which had 120 swiss francs in it.

That is basically my money for the rest of this month.

Panic stations - get home and stop my card.

As i write, I am downing a drink. I do not like robbers who take advantage of people like me who actually do not have cash to live on.

Shit day. But when i got home i listened to a bit of Michael Buble so did a bit of sitting down dancing!!!

So, life is still good.

Patsycat,

I am a little confused. Why do you constantly post about drinking on a forum that is trying to help people with their drinking problems? Seems kind of like trolling to me. I hope I'm wrong. Too bad about getting ripped off. May have been another drunk trying to help pay for their addiction. If you sincerely want to stop drinking then I apologize for being skeptical, but it does seem strange to me.

Rick

Rick Thai, I am sorry but you are WAY out of line here!

You joined TV this year, have 40 odd posts, and you come on here accusing someone who has been a TV member since 2005 and has chalked up well over 6,000 posts of being a troll.

That is just plain BS.

I see absolutely nothing trollish in Patsy's posts. She is being honest about her drinking, as many have in the past in this forum - what would you have her do? lie?

If you're so concerned about upsetting the sensibilities of people who want to stop drinking, what about poor Patsy, who has had a drinking problems for years and to my complete surprise, has finally decided not only to write about it on an open forum but is also planning to try AA for the first time in her life.

Add to that the fact that she has just had her month's living money stolen, then all I can say is next time you want to criticise someone in a serious thread, then think carefully before doing so.

I think an apology from you is in order, and in the meantime, Patsy, as the OP on this thread, may I offer my own apologies for the unwarranted nonsense that was spouted by this guy. Ignore it.

[Mobi]

I shall desist,

Mobi knows me from afar.

There is nothing to desist from.

Your honesty, tinged with your quirky sense of humour are like a beacon of light in an otherwise dark and troubling world...

[Mobi]

I agree with Mobi about giving a number of meetings a chance, sometimes they are good and sometimes not so much, I would also suggest that you try out different meetings as well. I'm sure you'll find the right ones for you.

Yes, there are ars_oles everywhere - even in these forums. Just learn to ignore them...

[Patsycat]

It's pissing down kittens and puppies here in sunny Geneva and I have to potter down to the bank to find cash!! My only problem is the fact that I may get done over by the bus ticket mafia cos' I don't have the three francs for a ticket.

Looking through jeans pockets and winter jackets for some spare change.

Don't worry Mobi, this woman has very thick skin and can take abuse!!!

I wouldn't know how to troll if they paid me!!

Edited May 12, 2011 by Patsycat

[Patsycat]

Every morning I watch the Jeremy Kyle show on ITV, and get great pleasure in the knowledge that there are people out there who have bigger problems than me!!! And they are usually rather portly with bad tatoos!!

Oh, and today i found out that it is against the law in Switzerland to have only one cat!!! I asked the question if a live cat and the ashes of a dead one count for two... Still waiting a response with baited Whiskas breath!!!

[RickThai]

Thanks Mobi.

Well I went out today and had a wee drinky poo with a friend. And we talked about the forthcoming Patsy going to AA. My friend being an AA member himself.

So, I went to pay the bill in the rather lovely terrace with lots of vines and such, to discover that some pillock had nicked my wallet which had 120 swiss francs in it.

That is basically my money for the rest of this month.

Panic stations - get home and stop my card.

As i write, I am downing a drink. I do not like robbers who take advantage of people like me who actually do not have cash to live on.

Shit day. But when i got home i listened to a bit of Michael Buble so did a bit of sitting down dancing!!!

So, life is still good.

Patsycat,

I am a little confused. Why do you constantly post about drinking on a forum that is trying to help people with their drinking problems? Seems kind of like trolling to me. I hope I'm wrong. Too bad about getting ripped off. May have been another drunk trying to help pay for their addiction. If you sincerely want to stop drinking then I apologize for being skeptical, but it does seem strange to me.

Rick

Rick Thai, I am sorry but you are WAY out of line here!

You joined TV this year, have 40 odd posts, and you come on here accusing someone who has been a TV member since 2005 and has chalked up well over 6,000 posts of being a troll.

That is just plain BS.

I see absolutely nothing trollish in Patsy's posts. She is being honest about her drinking, as many have in the past in this forum - what would you have her do? lie?

If you're so concerned about upsetting the sensibilities of people who want to stop drinking, what about poor Patsy, who has had a drinking problems for years and to my complete surprise, has finally decided not only to write about it on an open forum but is also planning to try AA for the first time in her life.

Add to that the fact that she has just had her month's living money stolen, then all I can say is next time you want to criticise someone in a serious thread, then think carefully before doing so.

I think an apology from you is in order, and in the meantime, Patsy, as the OP on this thread, may I offer my own apologies for the unwarranted nonsense that was spouted by this guy. Ignore it.

Mobi;

Perhaps you should read my post more thoroughly to wit:

"If you sincerely want to stop drinking then I apologize for being skeptical, but it does seem strange to me."

Also I not sure about why the length of time a poster has been on the forum has to do with the content. Perhaps that is her way of crying out for help. I don't know.

My point was that by continually bringing up the many times she is drinking her wine or what not and indicating that "life is good", may not be that helpful to people trying to quit drinking or struggling to stay dry. I, myself have many good memories of magical pairings of wine and food, or a relaxing drink at the end of a perfect day, but I honestly feel that any forum dedicated to help alcoholics is not really a place to continually remind alcoholics of what they might be missing.

In regards to Patsycat, I certainly did not intend to disuade her or anyone else from posting on this forum. I only ask a blessing for Patsycat and her quest for sobriety.

And as for your comment "Yes, there are ars_oles everywhere - even in these forums.", I assume you are referring to me. Still I will end this post without any unkind thoughts of you and with the understanding that your feelings for Patsycat developed by years of on-line chatter would naturally make you protective.

Good luck to all in their efforts to stop drinking and stay sober!

Rick

[GrahamF]

My point was that by continually bringing up the many times she is drinking her wine or what not and indicating that "life is good", may not be that helpful to people trying to quit drinking or struggling to stay dry. I, myself have many good memories of magical pairings of wine and food, or a relaxing drink at the end of a perfect day, but I honestly feel that any forum dedicated to help alcoholics is not really a place to continually remind alcoholics of what they might be missing.

When someone reminisces about the "good times" had when I drinking, I take it as an opportunity to remind myself of the bad times, which far outweigh the good times I had. Like getting up first thing in the morning and having to have a drink so I could feel "normal" or maybe some of the crappy things I did when I was drunk or maybe the great things I missed out on in life because I was too bombed to leave my house. It is very easy to forget the negative side of things, whether it's drinking or after breaking up with a significant other, etc, I feel that many of us tend to forget the negative stuff. Believe me, I do get where your coming from, about 10-11 years ago I gave up drinking for a little over a year on will power alone. I white-knuckled it for that year and then fell into the classic trap of believing that I could now drink like a normal person. I was wrong. This time, when I hit my emotional bottom, I realized that I couldn't do it alone, that I needed help. A close friend steered me to AA and I have to say that my sobriety now feels so much different than it did before. I am happy and I really don't want to drink, unlike before. I understand so much more about my alcoholism now and I have tools to deal with it now. To paraphrase an AA saying, I guess I needed every last drink to get where I am today. As I've said before, my sobriety is dependent on me, not others actions or words.

If someone is white-knuckling it, then I would humbly suggest that they seriously look at their program of recovery, maybe they need to change something up. I would suggest going to AA meetings and working the steps with a sponsor, but that is me. For someone else it might be therapy or meditation, etc.

I really do wish all of you the best. Patsy, keep on posting, you do make me giggle.

[Patsycat]

I didn't want to upset anyone

[Patsycat]

is white knukling when you go down a fast river?

I get toe cramps when my wee toes go all funny, or the full leg cramps which enjoy the fact that you have to get out of bed and do a little dance. Not so good if you have a cat attached to your thigh.

Edited May 12, 2011 by Patsycat

[Mobi]

Thanks Mobi.

Well I went out today and had a wee drinky poo with a friend. And we talked about the forthcoming Patsy going to AA. My friend being an AA member himself.

So, I went to pay the bill in the rather lovely terrace with lots of vines and such, to discover that some pillock had nicked my wallet which had 120 swiss francs in it.

That is basically my money for the rest of this month.

Panic stations - get home and stop my card.

As i write, I am downing a drink. I do not like robbers who take advantage of people like me who actually do not have cash to live on.

Shit day. But when i got home i listened to a bit of Michael Buble so did a bit of sitting down dancing!!!

So, life is still good.

Patsycat,

I am a little confused. Why do you constantly post about drinking on a forum that is trying to help people with their drinking problems? Seems kind of like trolling to me. I hope I'm wrong. Too bad about getting ripped off. May have been another drunk trying to help pay for their addiction. If you sincerely want to stop drinking then I apologize for being skeptical, but it does seem strange to me.

Rick

Rick Thai, I am sorry but you are WAY out of line here!

You joined TV this year, have 40 odd posts, and you come on here accusing someone who has been a TV member since 2005 and has chalked up well over 6,000 posts of being a troll.

That is just plain BS.

I see absolutely nothing trollish in Patsy's posts. She is being honest about her drinking, as many have in the past in this forum - what would you have her do? lie?

If you're so concerned about upsetting the sensibilities of people who want to stop drinking, what about poor Patsy, who has had a drinking problems for years and to my complete surprise, has finally decided not only to write about it on an open forum but is also planning to try AA for the first time in her life.

Add to that the fact that she has just had her month's living money stolen, then all I can say is next time you want to criticise someone in a serious thread, then think carefully before doing so.

I think an apology from you is in order, and in the meantime, Patsy, as the OP on this thread, may I offer my own apologies for the unwarranted nonsense that was spouted by this guy. Ignore it.

Mobi;

Perhaps you should read my post more thoroughly to wit:

"If you sincerely want to stop drinking then I apologize for being skeptical, but it does seem strange to me."

Also I not sure about why the length of time a poster has been on the forum has to do with the content. Perhaps that is her way of crying out for help. I don't know.

My point was that by continually bringing up the many times she is drinking her wine or what not and indicating that "life is good", may not be that helpful to people trying to quit drinking or struggling to stay dry. I, myself have many good memories of magical pairings of wine and food, or a relaxing drink at the end of a perfect day, but I honestly feel that any forum dedicated to help alcoholics is not really a place to continually remind alcoholics of what they might be missing.

In regards to Patsycat, I certainly did not intend to disuade her or anyone else from posting on this forum. I only ask a blessing for Patsycat and her quest for sobriety.

And as for your comment "Yes, there are ars_oles everywhere - even in these forums.", I assume you are referring to me. Still I will end this post without any unkind thoughts of you and with the understanding that your feelings for Patsycat developed by years of on-line chatter would naturally make you protective.

Good luck to all in their efforts to stop drinking and stay sober!

Rick

Also I not sure about why the length of time a poster has been on the forum has to do with the content

I would normally agree with you, but when someone with 47 posts and less than 6 months posting membership under his belt suggests that someone with over 6,000 posts and 5 years membership who has never so much as had a post removed, let alone been warned, may be trolling,then I think the point is valid.

My comment on ars_oles was not directed at you.

[Mobi]

Rick Thai, thanks for your comment.

Peace... and stay sober...

[kpmsprtd]

I have nothing against AA. A good friend of mine attends meetings, and it works for him.

I just want to mention that there is an alternative addiction treatment model, Rational Recovery, which is individual rather than group-based, and which seems to focus more on the family than on a higher power.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about Rational Recovery other than what I have read on their website, and what little I've heard about them over the years.

[RickThai]

.When someone reminisces about the "good times" had when I drinking, I take it as an opportunity to remind myself of the bad times, which far outweigh the good times I had. Like getting up first thing in the morning and having to have a drink so I could feel "normal" or maybe some of the crappy things I did when I was drunk or maybe the great things I missed out on in life because I was too bombed to leave my house. It is very easy to forget the negative side of things, whether it's drinking or after breaking up with a significant other, etc, I feel that many of us tend to forget the negative stuff. Believe me, I do get where your coming from, about 10-11 years ago I gave up drinking for a little over a year on will power alone. I white-knuckled it for that year and then fell into the classic trap of believing that I could now drink like a normal person. I was wrong. This time, when I hit my emotional bottom, I realized that I couldn't do it alone, that I needed help. A close friend steered me to AA and I have to say that my sobriety now feels so much different than it did before. I am happy and I really don't want to drink, unlike before. I understand so much more about my alcoholism now and I have tools to deal with it now. To paraphrase an AA saying, I guess I needed every last drink to get where I am today. As I've said before, my sobriety is dependent on me, not others actions or words.

If someone is white-knuckling it, then I would humbly suggest that they seriously look at their program of recovery, maybe they need to change something up. I would suggest going to AA meetings and working the steps with a sponsor, but that is me. For someone else it might be therapy or meditation, etc.

I really do wish all of you the best. Patsy, keep on posting, you do make me giggle.

GrahmF,

You do seem to have great instincts when it comes to steering clear of drink. I try not to think of the good times or the bad times when it comes to drinking. The burden I fight is the fact that with a good liver (it came from a 29 year-old man who wasn't a drinker), I know I could probably 'social drink' for the rest of my natural life and I would die from something else prior to having to suffer from ESLD (again). But I made a vow to my doctors and to the spirit of the man whose liver now sustains me never to do anything including drinking alcohol, to abuse that liver. So what I do is try and concentrate on how much enjoyment I get out of life without drinking.

At the same time, you and I both know what a struggle it can be for some people (I guess the AA term is white-knuckle?), and I sincerely want to help others not have to experience what I have been through. I am currently writing a book about End-stage Liver Diesease and my personal experiences with alcohol and liver failure. I don't expect to make much (or any) money on it, but I would like to share it with the hope that it might help a few people live a little better and a little longer. Hopefully, I might be able to offer a pre-read to this forum (I'd have to check with the publisher, but sometimes they do allow pre-publishing, limited distribution).

I am sincere about helping people with drinking problems. Having a second chance of life, kind of makes you feel like it was for some purpose, other than just prolonging your own life.

Rick

[RickThai]

Rick Thai, thanks for your comment.

Peace... and stay sober...

I'm glad your other comment was not directed at me. It bothered me more than you might expect.

Thanks.

RickThai

[RickThai]

I am not a troll. I have a problem with alcohol addiction which i am trying to control.

We started the DD thread a few years ago and i was the only female person there. So was taken under.

I have made friends with a lot of people out there in the sillynet!!

I'm very pretty and speak three languages, no kids one cat.

Patsycat:

Ironically enough, I took my last drink in Switzerland. It was in September 2007. I was in Switzerland on business, and after it was concluded, a ladyfriend and I left Zurich and drove up to a little city on the river, where we stayed in a little hotel that was owned by a renowned Swiss chef. We spent a week up there and it was beautiful and romantic as anything you'd ever read in a novel. Switzerland in September is (as you probably know) fantastic and with a short weekend in Germany, it was a trip to remember.

Our last night we had an obscenely expensive dinner in the hotel's restaurant. My friend order a glass of wine from a very expensive Bordeaux and the Somlier was relunctant to open the bottle for just one glasss. He said, "I hate to open a new bottle just for one glass. " he then looked at me and started to ask, "Perhaps Monsieur ...?", but I was already starting to feel the effects of a dying liver, so I rudely interrupted and said, " Just open the dam_n bottle, I'm sure you can manage it and bring me a beer!".

He pointed his nose at the ceiling and walked off in a huff. The food was excellent. the chef was famous for his brand of "Asian fusion" and I had a bowl of Thom Yum Gai (Hot and Spicy Thai Chicken Soup) and some lamb chops. The Thom Yum Gai was one of the most unique and best-tasting versions I have ever had. Although not as spicy as a real Thai version, I absolutely loved it, even though it was made from coconut milk rather than the clear versions I ususally prefer.

The beer was a typical Swiss beer and not all that (IMO). Just as well, as after that I never drank another alcoholic beverage.

Still I miss Switzerland.

RickThai

[Patsycat]

Now, Rick.

If you had mentioned having to get a liver transplant perhaps my responses and those of others my have been different. Perhaps more friendly or understanding.

Yes. Switzerland is beautiful and expensive. I am glad you had a good time here. Living here I seem to forget about the views and mountains and cleanliness.

And agree, the beer is shit!! Cow piss!!!

Take care and hugs to everyone who reads this this weekend. And let's hope Ireland wins the Eurovision Song Contest - those wee twins make me gaffaw!!

[smokie36]

Now, Rick.

If you had mentioned having to get a liver transplant perhaps my responses and those of others my have been different. Perhaps more friendly or understanding.

Yes. Switzerland is beautiful and expensive. I am glad you had a good time here. Living here I seem to forget about the views and mountains and cleanliness.

And agree, the beer is shit!! Cow piss!!!

Take care and hugs to everyone who reads this this weekend. And let's hope Ireland wins the Eurovision Song Contest - those wee twins make me gaffaw!!

Its the most ridiculous UK offering in years so just maybe they have a chance!

Hope you're all having a great weekend.

[powderpuff]

I have held off posting on this one. Kind of reminds me of the "Is alcoholism a disease?" type of windups. I totally get where Mobi is coming from. It has him so flummoxed that he doesn't want to attend meetings any more.

I have had this "Does AA Work?" topic rolling around in my head. It's a corollary.

All I can say is that Yes AA works. Yes alcoholism is a disease. God is not going to get you sober. That is a decision you'll have to make for yourself. I wake up. I'm sober. The question is : Will I stay sober? I stopped counting at 15 years.

The other day I was very resentful of a member on here who just outright contradicted me - like he is the authority. The Godhead. So I might be gone from this subforum soon.

But I do remember all those years ago. I had spoked to a member on the phone & we agreed to meet for the Sunday night meeting so I had some time to think about it. I swore that if that meeting had anything to do with Jesus I was gonna get up & walk out. Thankfully it did not & I met a great group of drunks & I did do a lot of meetings in the first 90 days 4 to 5 times a week, because I had been fired from my job of 20 years for drinking & I had F all else to do.

I did a search for topics containing the word AA. Very eye opening. Another mod was postulating "Is AA a cult" Very inappropriate I thought.

Maybe they want to chase us out of here? Possibly. I know Sheryl is good & I have told her so many times. Sheryl is an angel of mercy.

Edited May 14, 2011 by powderpuff

[tjansen]

I didn't read all of the posts, so this might be redundant. When I first started going to AA meetings in 1981 in the US, I heard someone say in a meeting, "If you don't do the fourth and fifth steps, you will likely drink again. I believed that and finally gave in and worked the fourth and fifth steps back then. I was getting more and more crazy and miserable in sobriety. I was getting desperate enough to follow the suggestion.

My analysis of this fact is that, meetings and support can work for quite a while, months and even years, but in the end, if I don't work the steps, especially the "resistance" steps, four and five, I will not change, not clear up my self-defeating guilt, and I will be left with no choice but to try drinking again, using euphoric recall, or just out of despair.

As we used to say, Don;t drink, read the Big Book, go to meetings, and eat hard candy. And later I added, work steps four and five before resuming drinking. It worked for me. My life is free and beautiful.

By the way, what I learned 29 years later was that I had stopped my growth in AA by resisting Step 11. Since coming to Thailand, I have started meditating, formally, and my interest in AA, especially the 12th step, has been reawakened.

Tom

[Mobi]

Rick Thai, thanks for your comment.

Peace... and stay sober...

I'm glad your other comment was not directed at me. It bothered me more than you might expect.

Thanks.

RickThai

Actually it was primarily directed at someone, who shall remain nameless in this forum, but about whom I have written today in my blog.

Here is the tract, which will be published in my blog later today.

The ‘Darkside’ of AA.

There was a guy recently, using the pseudonym xxxxxxx, who, after reading a few pages of my blog, launched an unwarranted attack on me on Thai Visa, in a serious medical thread where I was seeking advice on my girlfriend’s medical condition. It really was a most vitriolic attack, in which he accused me of causing my girlfriend’s condition by my outrageous behaviour. Of course the more odious inflammatory comments were quickly removed by Thai Visa’s ever vigilant moderators, but it did leave a nasty taste in my mouth.

This was not because he had succeeded in ‘getting to me’. It was because prior to this, he had been having a dialogue with me, both in open forum and via the Thai Visa personal message system, on the subject of AA and alcoholism.

xxxxxxx is a long-time member of AA and he was urging me to return to AA to ensure my continued sobriety. He made a multitude of pious comments in his writings to me, along the lines that AA had changed his life and that he was now a caring, compassionate, considerate human being, whose main mission in life was to help others.

Then suddenly, out of the blue, with absolutely no prompting from me, he launched into this unbelievably personal attack – initially in the medical forum, and subsequently by personal message. I politely pointed out to him his previous utterances, in which he had assured me that he was not judgemental, that he did not wish to hurt or offend anyone, that he would never embarrass anyone and so on and so forth….. He responded with yet more personal insults and copied and pasted copious passages from on-line medical dictionaries, in some kind perverse attempt to convince me that I was suffering from mental sickness. Well, I ask you folks, even if I am suffering from mental sickness, is that the correct way for any caring person to behave?

The only reason I am telling you all this is because that this particular gentleman is clearly a stalwart of AA and he carries his ‘AA Badge’ on his back like some kind of reforming, missionary zealot. He claims to be actively working the 12 steps, which preach love, understanding, actively helping your fellow sufferers, admitting to your character defects, and so much more, yet he embarks on malicious, unprovoked attacks on a fellow sufferer, the only reason being ,as far as I can determine is because I have rejected AA as my path to sobriety. (Also, maybe, because he is jealous of the sexual adventures that I write about in my blog).

In any event, this is AA hypocrisy at its worst. They preach one thing and practise something entirely different. I once knew a long time member of AA in Pattaya who developed such a pathological hatred for a fellow member that he was seriously thinking of getting hold a gun shooting him in the head. I had no doubt whatsoever that he was serious about this. Yet the guy he hated was a decent, much loved member of the group.

This my friends, is the dark – even black - side of AA – but I would still recommend it to anyone as a good place to start their sober journey – as imperfect as it is. But beware the likes of xxxxxxx and his gang – they may well be 'Greeks bearing gifts'....

[473geo]

I think if I am ever to let anybody down by regularly drinking to excess again, I will know it is myself, my lovely wife and children, family, and my wonderful friends.

The people who place their trust in me

Not some god, or strangers, or feel as if I have failed to live up to the expectation of an AA course

But that is just my way

[StreetCowboy]

Rick Thai, thanks for your comment.

Peace... and stay sober...

I'm glad your other comment was not directed at me. It bothered me more than you might expect.

Thanks.

RickThai

Actually it was primarily directed ....

I prefer to keep real life and virtual life somewhat separate and to maintain at least a semblance of polite anonymity, due to the number of strangers in both worlds, some of whom are stranger than others, many of whom lack the social (my vocabulary fails me - niceties? responsibility? constraints? education?)... that we expect, and who may not have our best interests at heart. But you know that as well as anyone, and you carry on courageously...

Anyway, there's an arsehol_e behind us wherever we go, so we have to learn to live with them

SC

[saraburioz]

I didn't read all of the posts, so this might be redundant. When I first started going to AA meetings in 1981 in the US, I heard someone say in a meeting, "If you don't do the fourth and fifth steps, you will likely drink again. I believed that and finally gave in and worked the fourth and fifth steps back then. I was getting more and more crazy and miserable in sobriety. I was getting desperate enough to follow the suggestion.

My analysis of this fact is that, meetings and support can work for quite a while, months and even years, but in the end, if I don't work the steps, especially the "resistance" steps, four and five, I will not change, not clear up my self-defeating guilt, and I will be left with no choice but to try drinking again, using euphoric recall, or just out of despair.

As we used to say, Don;t drink, read the Big Book, go to meetings, and eat hard candy. And later I added, work steps four and five before resuming drinking. It worked for me. My life is free and beautiful.

By the way, what I learned 29 years later was that I had stopped my growth in AA by resisting Step 11. Since coming to Thailand, I have started meditating, formally, and my interest in AA, especially the 12th step, has been reawakened.

Tom

It's the easy test to ask an alcoholic if he has done step 5. If not, he will eventually drink again.

I have friend who is in AA and came to Thailand to increase his spirituality. Isn't that what AA is all about?

I heard that AA have their annual get together in Pattaya - I really can't understand this. Could anyone in AA explain this to me.

I've been to AA but haven't done step 5. or step 4,6,7,8,9,10,11,12. Maybe one day if it get's unbearable.

[GrahamF]

GrahmF,

You do seem to have great instincts when it comes to steering clear of drink. I try not to think of the good times or the bad times when it comes to drinking. The burden I fight is the fact that with a good liver (it came from a 29 year-old man who wasn't a drinker), I know I could probably 'social drink' for the rest of my natural life and I would die from something else prior to having to suffer from ESLD (again). But I made a vow to my doctors and to the spirit of the man whose liver now sustains me never to do anything including drinking alcohol, to abuse that liver. So what I do is try and concentrate on how much enjoyment I get out of life without drinking.

At the same time, you and I both know what a struggle it can be for some people (I guess the AA term is white-knuckle?), and I sincerely want to help others not have to experience what I have been through. I am currently writing a book about End-stage Liver Diesease and my personal experiences with alcohol and liver failure. I don't expect to make much (or any) money on it, but I would like to share it with the hope that it might help a few people live a little better and a little longer. Hopefully, I might be able to offer a pre-read to this forum (I'd have to check with the publisher, but sometimes they do allow pre-publishing, limited distribution).

I am sincere about helping people with drinking problems. Having a second chance of life, kind of makes you feel like it was for some purpose, other than just prolonging your own life.

Rick

Thanks Rick, but I have to tell you that my drinking history proves otherwise when it comes to my instincts and thinking concerning booze. It is only through going to AA meetings, working the steps and yes, finding a higher power of my understanding that I have been able to stay sober. Let me be clear, I do not believe in "a god on high," I feel that my higher power is within me and is spiritually based rather than religiously based. I'll call it my sober subconscious(SS) for wont of a better term. For me, it is keeping my raging alcoholics ego in check, when I can do this my SS is able to get through to me and keep me sane, at least when it comes to drinking. I do this by going to meetings, working the steps, meditating and working with other alcoholics. Higher powers can be anything that works for you, maybe in your case it is your oath. Honestly, I don't know, but I am very glad that it keeps you away from drinking.

[powderpuff]

I thought the AA roundup was in Khon Kaen but I could be wrong. Maybe it should rotate each year so as to be close to someones home town each year.

If you can't hack Pattaya your sobriety is probably pretty fragile & you should stay indoors.

[powderpuff]

We had this wonderful French woman in our Bangkok group for many years. She was a rock. Might still be there for all I know. But she used to say "Fake it till you make it" I loved that. You don't have to say a dam_n word during the meeting apart from introducing yourself. When the meeting ends you can get up & walk out. There is zero onus for you to interact with any other members. They are gonna be some of the craziest people you are ever gonna meet. Sober living? What's the alternative? ...

[Sheryl]

....this is AA hypocrisy at its worst. They preach one thing and practise something entirely different. ..

Mobi,

Who on earth is "they" ???

AA is not a hierarchal organization, it is a fellowship. Since meetings are open to all who wish to stop drinking, naturally a wide range of individuals attend. And since everyone works their own program (or not, as the case may be) in their own way and at their own pace, there is naturally a wide variation in people's progress. Some people do indeed adopt the form but not the substance of the program -- their loss.

It is IMO a form of distorted thinking to zoom in on the least developed individuals in an AA group and insist that they somehow embody what AA "is". Ignore them and focus on those in the group who are better examples. And if there aren't any, attend a different meeting, since the tone of meetings do vary according to the individuals in the group.

Looking for "evidence" that something doesn't work by finding individuals who claim to practice it but are flawed/not progressing is a common but self-destructive tactic. It is important to recognize this because it will otherwise block you not just from being able to gain from what the AA program has to offer but also from benefitting from any path to sobriety or personal development. Because you name it, they've all got people who claim to be practising them but don't embody their principles. Human beings are falliable and imperfect and even given the best of tools, some people will make a mess with them.

There is a term in AA for what you are doing -- "taking other peoples inventories" instead of your own. The only "personal inventory" worth taking is your own.