Alcoholism

[Johnniey]

I have a friend who went to a detox clinic - it was drink or lose your job.

We have spoken on the phone and he said to me that i was the only one of his friends who has called him in the last few months to check up on him. He is sober.

We shall meet for a coffee next week. Yes, i can drink coffee!!

I am still swayed one way or the other with AA. After reading all your stories. As i said before, I don't want to see someone I know there. And then have to see them again.

Just rolling out my thoughts. If any of you met me in person you would know that i am the nicest person. And Thairick - I am pretty!!

The worst thing - another story.

Quite a number of AA's I know have said that many of their drinking buddies disappeared after they had quit drinking and then they realized that they really had nothing,or not much, in common with these people other than the booze. This is not always the case but it is not unusual.

As far as running into someone you know, I feel your angst, I was a little nervous about that as well. Turns out that I didn't know anybody at first, although later I did run into a neighbor in a meeting and it wasn't a big deal. I live in an urban area with a lot of foot traffic and I run into AA's I now know almost everyday. If it's someone I've never seen outside of a meeting before, I usually just nod and smile a hello and let it go at that. Normally most people will stop and say hi and have a chat, just like two friends meeting by chance on the street. Sure, there are some people who I'd rather not see and they might not want to see me, who knows, but that's not a big deal either. I have to say, at least in my area, that it really feels like a fellowship and I'd say that 90%+ of the people I have met in AA are really decent & kind people, now that they are sober. Now, I really enjoy meeting fellow AA's by accident and I now socialize with quite a few on a regular basis.

I was lucky enough to attend an AA meeting in Zurich earlier this year and the folks there were great as well, they met us out for dinner before the meeting and were really glad to have us attend their meeting. Looks like i might be going to Glasgow this weekend and I am hoping that I will be able to attend a meeting there as well.

I think you'll find that Glasgow has some of the best AA meetings that there are.

[Mobi]

I have a friend who went to a detox clinic - it was drink or lose your job.

As i said before, I don't want to see someone I know there. And then have to see them again.

The worst thing - another story.

I'm with you here. I was first taken to AA with a couple of friends but have to admit that even though we were all alkies together, I was very reluctant to 'open up' in the presence of my friends, even though there wasn't much they didn't know about me. In fact I didn't really start to embrace AA until those friends had left the scene and I was among totally new friends who didn't know me outside of AA. That is the beauty of AA - it is anonymous.

I a not ashamed of being an alcoholic. I don't go around shouting it from the roof tops, but if the subject comes up I have no problems in admitting it. But I understand that not everyone is the same and many wish to keep their alcohol problems to themselves.

As others have said, if you see someone there who knows you, he/she should respect your anonymity and not reveal your AA attendance to the outside world. But I can only suggest that if you see someone you know, then try another meeting until you find one where no one knows you.

Don't give up on this - it may prove a life saver - and a life changer...

[Johnniey]

There is an annual roundup in Khon Khaen in July. I believe this year it is the second weekend in July. There is also one in Pattaya. I don't know what month that one is in off hand. There could be more roundups taking place as a particular area gets enough members that are interested in having this weekend celebration of sobriety.

I didn't read all of the posts, so this might be redundant. When I first started going to AA meetings in 1981 in the US, I heard someone say in a meeting, "If you don't do the fourth and fifth steps, you will likely drink again. I believed that and finally gave in and worked the fourth and fifth steps back then. I was getting more and more crazy and miserable in sobriety. I was getting desperate enough to follow the suggestion.

My analysis of this fact is that, meetings and support can work for quite a while, months and even years, but in the end, if I don't work the steps, especially the "resistance" steps, four and five, I will not change, not clear up my self-defeating guilt, and I will be left with no choice but to try drinking again, using euphoric recall, or just out of despair.

As we used to say, Don;t drink, read the Big Book, go to meetings, and eat hard candy. And later I added, work steps four and five before resuming drinking. It worked for me. My life is free and beautiful.

By the way, what I learned 29 years later was that I had stopped my growth in AA by resisting Step 11. Since coming to Thailand, I have started meditating, formally, and my interest in AA, especially the 12th step, has been reawakened.

Tom

It's the easy test to ask an alcoholic if he has done step 5. If not, he will eventually drink again.

I have friend who is in AA and came to Thailand to increase his spirituality. Isn't that what AA is all about?

I heard that AA have their annual get together in Pattaya - I really can't understand this. Could anyone in AA explain this to me.

I've been to AA but haven't done step 5. or step 4,6,7,8,9,10,11,12. Maybe one day if it get's unbearable.

There is the 7th Annual Isarn Roundup in July. This is a predominantly Thai event but with translation to English. You can find details on www.aathailand.org

I've heard talk about moving the annual Thailand roundup in Pattaya to another location in 2013.

[Mobi]

Do some sufferers of alcoholism grasp at spirituality as a way to save them? Of course they do,is there another way?

Yes - my way!

Bring on the disapprobation.....

[kerryk]

I think Mobi is doing, sober, exactely what he did when he was drunk. He is no spring chicken, he has been sober for 4 months and god knows how many days. Good on him. So, he is pottering out to all his old haunts and drinking coke light. Just to show he can!!

Good on you Mobi, that must have taken a few balls.

Why should Mobi stay at home in his house because he doesn't drink anymore? He goes out, meets his pals and does his thing. Without alcohol.

Mobi, you know with this post i didn't want to put you down to one of those pottering old fools!

Or a sex addict. Well, maybe one addiction leads to another.

I wonder where mine will go....!!

Well I am a pottering old fool, so don't worry about it

yes, Annie you are correct. For the first 2 months or so of my sobriety I kept pretty much clear of bars except for the occasional visit to a pub on a Saturday afternoon to chat with an old friend. In fact, in the very early days the only place I went out to was AA meetings. But as the alcohol started to clear from my body and as I started to re-join the human race, I did venture out more and resume some of my previous activities, albeit just supping coffee, tea and diet coke with the occasional orange juice.

As time has gone on, the fact that the people around me at the pubs and bars are all drinking alcoholic drinks has bothered me less and less and quite frankly I don't really notice it any more.

One thing about the establishments that I like to patronise is that they are not really places for heavy drinkers to get drunk and prop up the bars - they are places to meet lovely young ladies and drinking in such places is not particularly high profile. I spend my time there chatting and playing with the girls, not with farang boozers, who, now that I stay sober, can bore me very quickly.

Right now, at 4 months and 18 days sober, I feel very confident in my sobriety and do not need the support of AA to maintain it. I know that a single lapse could prove catastrophic for me in all kinds of ways - not least if which would be my fragile health, and I know that I am 'powerless over alcohol' - as my AA friends would have me state. I know that I can never, ever, be a moderate drinker and it has taken me all these years to finally come to this obvious conclusion.

Most alcoholics spend their entire lives thinking that one of these days they can get their act together and become moderate drinkers, and yet others spend countless years 'researching' this notion, until, with AA's help they finally realise that it is impossible.

For this alcoholic, my research is definitely over over and I will be very surprised if I ever pick up another drink as I know it will spell death and disaster.

So unless I have a death wish, the rest of my life will be alcohol free.

But I reserve the right to indulge my other addictions as I see fit - a horny old man's gotta have some fun in his dotage

Long term sobriety after 4 months of AA meetings?

Were that true, what a wonderful thing. AA would have a billion members and could sell seats for a fortune.

But good luck.

[Mobi]

I think Mobi is doing, sober, exactely what he did when he was drunk. He is no spring chicken, he has been sober for 4 months and god knows how many days. Good on him. So, he is pottering out to all his old haunts and drinking coke light. Just to show he can!!

Good on you Mobi, that must have taken a few balls.

Why should Mobi stay at home in his house because he doesn't drink anymore? He goes out, meets his pals and does his thing. Without alcohol.

Mobi, you know with this post i didn't want to put you down to one of those pottering old fools!

Or a sex addict. Well, maybe one addiction leads to another.

I wonder where mine will go....!!

Well I am a pottering old fool, so don't worry about it

yes, Annie you are correct. For the first 2 months or so of my sobriety I kept pretty much clear of bars except for the occasional visit to a pub on a Saturday afternoon to chat with an old friend. In fact, in the very early days the only place I went out to was AA meetings. But as the alcohol started to clear from my body and as I started to re-join the human race, I did venture out more and resume some of my previous activities, albeit just supping coffee, tea and diet coke with the occasional orange juice.

As time has gone on, the fact that the people around me at the pubs and bars are all drinking alcoholic drinks has bothered me less and less and quite frankly I don't really notice it any more.

One thing about the establishments that I like to patronise is that they are not really places for heavy drinkers to get drunk and prop up the bars - they are places to meet lovely young ladies and drinking in such places is not particularly high profile. I spend my time there chatting and playing with the girls, not with farang boozers, who, now that I stay sober, can bore me very quickly.

Right now, at 4 months and 18 days sober, I feel very confident in my sobriety and do not need the support of AA to maintain it. I know that a single lapse could prove catastrophic for me in all kinds of ways - not least if which would be my fragile health, and I know that I am 'powerless over alcohol' - as my AA friends would have me state. I know that I can never, ever, be a moderate drinker and it has taken me all these years to finally come to this obvious conclusion.

Most alcoholics spend their entire lives thinking that one of these days they can get their act together and become moderate drinkers, and yet others spend countless years 'researching' this notion, until, with AA's help they finally realise that it is impossible.

For this alcoholic, my research is definitely over over and I will be very surprised if I ever pick up another drink as I know it will spell death and disaster.

So unless I have a death wish, the rest of my life will be alcohol free.

But I reserve the right to indulge my other addictions as I see fit - a horny old man's gotta have some fun in his dotage

Long term sobriety after 4 months of AA meetings?

Were that true, what a wonderful thing. AA would have a billion members and could sell seats for a fortune.

But good luck.

Dear oh dear... oh dear... oh dear... oh dear.....

It seems that I write in a different language to everyone else..

Or is that you are all so eager to attack me that you flick read what I write and then get your fingers clicking away on your high powered - or is it HIGHER POWERED - keyboards...

Pray tell me where in my many posts did I claim that I have achieved LONG TERM sobriety???

I have made many claims and statements - much of which I know you don't like - such as 'I can manage without AA', but never once did I claim I have long term sobriety. I know full well I have a long way to go - and if you read everything I have written you would know that back in 2008 I was sober for more than 9 months so no-one knows better than me how far I still have to go....

As for 4 months at AA - now where pray did I say that? I actually said that I stopped going after 2 months not 4 months!!!! - but in point of fact,in recent times, I have attended daily AA meetings, sometimes even 2 or 3 times a day, for several years - but of course you just skim read my most recent posts - and jump in with the knife....

Thank you for your good wishes, although I have no doubt that you, like so many AA believers in this thread, are secretly hoping I will fall off the wagon so that you can all smile your smug little smiles and delight in the fact that you are right and that AA and its Higher Power is the only way to stop drinking

[kerryk]

I don't want you to fall off the wagon that's why I wished you good luck. You said you had been sober for 4 months and that one slip could cause you severe health problems. Hence the 4 months and I assume your goal of long term sobriety.

I guess I rewind sobriety to the last date of a drink and think of meeting attendance and AA things from the most recent period of sobriety.

In my way of thinking you have 4 months of sobriety. Not that, that is correct but it is my way of measuring things.

If I had 10 years or 20 years of consistent non drinking I would consider not going to meetings if I really had no other choice. Again just me talking here.

In another post I said an old timer told me I had to go to meetings until I liked them. I would be hesitant to stop going to meetings unless I really liked going to them.

I don't know you and wish you no harm. The only reason I post is others may read this thread and think AA can somehow work with intermittent or short term meeting attendance. It doesn't.

AA works by going to meetings, working the steps and all the other things that have been mentioned in this thread.

People stop drinking without AA. However, by far the most successful way for the majority of people to stop drinking is AA. How long does it take for your brain to function normally after many years of drinking? How many years of non drinking to get your head back to where it was before you started drinking? I don't know about you. I can't speak to that. I can only tell you that it was 5 years of not drinking before my mind really started to clear. 10 years and I began to have some confidence in my decisions again. Was I capable of judging this myself? No. At first I was in a pink fog where I thought I knew a lot more than I actually knew. For me it was finding a good sponsor with long term sobriety to judge where I was mentally. To judge where I had been, how far I had come and where I am today. I, of course thought I could but in reality I could not do it myself.

[Patsycat]

Hey Mobi or should i call you xxxxxx

You put my REAL name in here!! No worries. You can pay the deed poll fees to change it. Even though most old timers here know each others real names.

We have known each other for a few years now.

Perhaps when you come over to England for your daughters wedding i could get a skip and jump flight over to England to meet you?

Just a thought. Sleazy Jet... bring your own sandwiches.

Worst case scenario - I could be your other half at the wedding!!

[Mobi]

Hi Kerry, I admit I probably over-reacted to your earlier post, mainly because there are malevolent folk out there who are seemingly desperate to see me fail.

Anyway I accept that you wish me no harm and thank you for your post.

As for how long does it take for an alcoholic to recover? Well, if you go back to my very first post, which started off this thread, you will see that I did try to provide some answers to this question based on extensive medical research. So for convenience, I will paste the relevant part of that earlier post here:

All alcoholics suffer from cognitive dysfunction as a result of drinking massive quantities of alcohol over an extended period. The extent of this dysfunction will vary from individual to individual and will depend on many factors, including age, and the length of time the person has been drinking. When talking about cognitive function, I am referring to:

1. Distractibility

2. Mild confusion

3. Irritability

4. Attention and concentration

5. Reaction time

6. Verbal learning ability

7. Verbal abstract reasoning

8. Verbal short term memory

9. Non-verbal abstract reasoning

10. Mental flexibility

11. Non-verbal short term memory

12.Visuospatial ability

Research has now established after 2 months of abstinence, items 1-3 above will usually have shown significant recovery, but items 4-8 can take anything from 2 months to 5 years to show improvement and items 9 -11 can take up to 7 years, with item 12, maybe never showing signs of recovery.

The brains of long term, heavy drinkers shrink, but they return to almost full normal size after a long period of abstinence or moderate drinking. Long-term, heavy drinking kills some white brain cells and some of the grey cells which are responsible for spatial processing; however, it does not kill any other grey cells. In particular, the grey cells which are responsible for thinking, decision making, and other cognitive processes remain intact even in long-term, heavy drinkers. Unless there is permanent brain damage which is due to thiamine deficiency or liver failure, nearly all brain functions of alcohol dependent drinkers can be returned to normal with a long period of abstinence or moderate drinking. Cognitive functioning tends to return to normal when brain size returns to normal.

All this is assuming that the alcoholic is not suffering from a condition known as ‘wet brain’ or Wernicke-Korsakoff Syndrome, which is a form of brain damage, which is characterized by severe amnesia, confabulation (inventing events to fill in the black-out gaps in memory), and sometimes dementia.

In general terms, most medical practitioners who are concerned with the treatment of recovering alcoholics, will agree that the first year of abstinence is crucial and that during that period great care must be taken with the alcoholic’s lifestyle to ensure that he/she is kept away from temptation as much as possible and that during this critical period when the cognitive functions are slowly improving, that not too much pressure or expectations can be put on him/her. I personally have met literally dozens of long-term sober alcoholics who have impressed upon me how important that very first year is for a recovering alcoholic. They are all agreed that life changing decisions during this early period should be avoided, whenever possible.

Alcoholism is a disease. The sufferer has THIQ in his brain and it will never go away, and for him alcohol is a dangerous and potentially deadly chemical to which he has a lifelong addiction. Over time, the alcoholic can train himself to resist the temptation to take what he desires more than anything and he can become an almost normal, sober member of society, but he will never be completely cured.

The above is the reason why I know for sure that I still have a long way to go along my path to sobriety, but that by understanding the established scientific facts which bely some of the myriad obfuscation on this subject, this sufferer at least can understand what is going on in my body and brain and it gives me some clear goals to aim for and what I can expect along this long journey.

As far as AA attendance is concerned, I can only reiterate that I have had many false runs along the road to try and achieve sobriety, both inside and outside of AA, but for me, here and now, I find I have no need of AA.

I learnt a lot during the various times that I was a regular AA attender and I have not the slightest doubt that much of what I learnt and much of the advice I was given by well meaning AA members , will hold me in good stead, in this, my latest fight for sobriety.

Now I know I will get attacked from all quarters for what am about to say, but there seems to be a myth within AA, that the ONLY WAY TO SOBRIETY is to attend AA meetings for an indefinite period and to work the 12 steps.

Well I'm sorry, but I simply do not accept that and I personally believe that those who adopt the AA spiritual path to sobriety are lucky as they are able to have a belief in something, which to me, flies in the face of all reason.

I know that I am right, every bit as much as you guys know that you are right - so shall we agree to disagree on this?

If I achieve my aim of achieving long term sobriety, am I a freak? Will I be the exception that proves the rule?

I don't think so. There are many alcoholics in this world who have achieved permanent sobriety outside of the auspices of AA. I personally know of two, fully documented, such cases, so it can't be that rare. But AA will have you believe that it is, which is not necessarily a bad thing, for every alcoholic should start his quest at the doors of AA and proceed from there.

And before you all jump in with your outraged ripostes, just reflect the subject under discussion is 'Alcoholism - is it a disease and can God cure you?'

So let's have an intelligent debate, and respect views that don't necessarily match your own.....

[Mobi]

Hey Mobi or should i call you xxxxxx

You put my REAL name in here!! No worries. You can pay the deed poll fees to change it. Even though most old timers here know each others real names.

We have known each other for a few years now.

Perhaps when you come over to England for your daughters wedding i could get a skip and jump flight over to England to meet you?

Just a thought. Sleazy Jet... bring your own sandwiches.

Worst case scenario - I could be your other half at the wedding!!

OMG!!! I'm so sorry XXXX , erm I mean Patsy...

As far as my daughter's wedding is concerned, you are very welcome to come, I have no plans to take any little hookers with me from Sin City as some of the guests might have a heart attack.

But I won't be drinking, so are you sure you will enjoy yourself?

PM me if you are serious.....

[StreetCowboy]

....Now I know I will get attacked from all quarters for what am about to say, but there seems to be a myth within AA, that the ONLY WAY TO SOBRIETY is to attend AA meetings for an indefinite period and to work the 12 steps.

Well I'm sorry, but I simply do not accept that and I personally believe that those who adopt the AA spiritual path to sobriety are lucky as they are able to have a belief in something, which to me, flies in the face of all reason.

I know that I am right, every bit as much as you guys know that you are right - so shall we agree to disagree on this?

If I achieve my aim of achieving long term sobriety, am I a freak? Will I be the exception that proves the rule?

...

Room here, I think, to slip in a little pedantic pedagougery...

"the exception that proves the rule" does NOT mean that the presence of a single exception proves the soundness of the rule. It is the exception, which in fact turns out not to be unique, but rather to be the norm.

Take for example, the rule "All odd numbers are prime" - 3 is prime, so is 5, 7, 11, 13 - ok, 9 is not but that is the exception; in fact, when we look a little harder, we find that 15, 21, 25, 27, 33 etc. are not prime and in fact the exceptions prove to be the rule as we get higher (numerically, not substance-wise).

So Mobi could be the exception that proves the rule, and when we broaden our net outside our limited circle, dominated as it is by our friends from the meetings, we may find that many people get sober otherwise.

SC

[kerryk]

Mobi I understand what you are saying. I have heard it all before many times. But call a spade a spade. You are not using AA to stop your drinking.

You are doing your own thing. I am OK with that.

My concern is that you may influence others to think that AA is a gateway and not a lifestyle.

AA will not tell anyone that it is OK to stop going to meetings or not work the steps. AA will tell anyone that not going to meetings and not working the steps will lead to drinking.

I realize you are trying to use God as a reason not to go to meetings but that is not an AA thing either.

Higher power may or may not be God. AA says “a higher power of my understanding” and that may or may not be God. You do not have to believe in God to go to AA.

Look at the odds. How many people trying to stop drinking stop, using the “my way” solution? What %? Maybe a tenth of one percent.

How many people trying to stop drinking using the AA solution stop? Maybe 5%.

How long does it take your brain to function normally after 30 years of drinking? Physically is one thing and psychologically is another. My brain might be able to work correctly but the fact that I was a drunk for 30 years takes quite a while to correct. I have never seen anyone think clearly after long term drinking in less than 5 years.

I can understand why you stopped going to meetings. If you shared your opinions like you have done in this thread I would steer clear of you at a meeting. The negative opinions of the 12 steps and the anti God comments, and the stories of people getting sober on their own among others would keep me away from you. It is no good for my sobriety and I have heard them so many times before.

There are many people who come to AA looking for help and are willing to listen.

People who come to AA trying to debate the principles that have helped millions of alcoholics get sober over many years are a burden AA will always have. It is a symptom of the disease. That's why I suggested in an earlier post to not to say anything at meetings for the first year or so, just listen.

Mobi, don't think I am trying to change your mind or convince you of anything. I'm not. You want to debate and by painting AA methods (steps and meetings) in a negative light and make your own way seem workable. There is one Mobi and 106,202 AA groups and 1,867,212 members world wide. Do you think they might be onto something?

If you came to an AA meeting I would not try and change your mind either. You lack humility. In most things that is not bad. In AA humility is a necessity.

Does God save alcoholics? A higher power does. You have to be able to admit you are powerless over alcohol. Admitting powerlessness means humility. Usually hitting bottom makes people humble.

[Mobi]

SC I like it Maybe I am not so much of an exception as I thought I might be, so I am not the exception that proves the rule after all. The rule is a fallacy.(That the ONLY way to get sober is the AA way etc). Never thought of it like that, but I have a sneaking suspicion you may be on to something here....

Kerry, I do appreciate your reply as misguided as it might be.

You are concerned that I may mislead people with my advice. Well, I am also concerned that you may mislead people into thinking that the only way to get sober is through AA, which is patently untrue.

How many people trying to stop drinking using the AA solution stop? Maybe 5%.

That's an interesting stat. I heard or read somewhere quite recently that the number of people who achieve long term sobriety in AA is around 10% of those who try. I have no idea if either stat is even close to the truth, but if it is, that means that the non-AA folk have a 5 in a hundred chance of remaining sober and the AA folk have a 10 in a hundred chance.

SC is right, there is no rule at all, because the folk who do it without AA are the ones who cannot accept the spiritual dogma of AA, yet they can still make it if they try hard enough.

BTW, I will not belabour the point too much but I can think of loads of people in AA who think along similar lines to me - but they keep going to meetings as they find it a nice friendly place to while away their time and they invariably come away with something to think about. For people of a certain age and a certain background it is a great place to make friends. In fact, I would even go so far as to suggest that the likes of you Kerry, may even be in the minority......

One of the things that really made me think seriously about the AA programme and the very essence of AA was the continual advice to 'fake it to make it'. In other words they are being told to lie about their belief in a Higher Power as they work the 12 steps, until such time as they change their minds. I could never come to terms or reconcile this with the whole AA ethos of the need to be scrupulously honest in your life and all your dealings. Here we have this group of people who are striving to be honest, yet they are advising newcomers to be dishonest with themselves and with their sponsor. I fully understand what this is all about and what the intention is, as I have queried it many times in AA meetings. The theory is that if you fake it for a while, eventually you will find your 'Higher Power'

A cynic might suggest that the 'God People' are desperate for the non-believers to hang on long enough until the 'Higher Power' brain washing starts to work its magic...

A cynic might.. but Mobi....? never!

[kerryk]

1. Who is the audience? Who is the target market here?

I would suggest the great majority are men living in Thailand with limited means.

I would think the majority live in Bangkok, Pattaya and/or Chiang Mai.

What would you suggest they try to get off booze? De tox at a hospital if they can afford that and can afford the time. And then what?

You can't go back to the lifestyle that caused you to become a drunk in the first place. You have to change your way of living, change your friends, even change your eating habits (some kind of food has to replace the 20 beers a day).

So how do you do that in Thailand on a limited budget? Rely on your ego? Tough it out? Invent some plan with other drugs to take the place of alcohol?

What are the options available to people of average or below average income living in Thailand to kick booze long term?

I have watched the vicious cycle so many times. I watched all the de toxes. I watched the pills and the grass crutches. I listened to all the stories. I saw the mayhem created. I watched the people lose jobs and families. It is so sad when the answer is so simple.

I was so sad. I was reluctant to admit defeat. I have a big ego. I have a lot of pride. I am smarter than the couple of million people in AA. My brain works better than theirs and I really like beer. I was raised a Catholic and I really don't like God. I have been an atheist for years.

For me the answer was simple. I had to admit defeat. I am powerless over alcohol. A power greater than me had to save me. I tried my logical thought process for 40 years and it came up lacking. My logical thought process could not stop me from drinking. A power greater than me stopped me from drinking. Does that make me a God person?

Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their

experience, strength,

and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help

others to recover from alcoholism.

The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no

dues or fees for AA membership; they are self-supporting through our own

contributions.

AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution;

does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes.

Their primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety.

AA is not a God or not God debating society.

There may be better ways to stop drinking but when you take into consideration the target market of Thai Visa and the availability of help to stop drinking AA would seem to be the answer.

[StreetCowboy]

It was the first answer for me. I gave up looking after that.

I might find that I need to start looking again one day. I am sure it is not the only answer available. But in the meantime, I'll keep with it.

But if people there are inadvertently driving you to drink, then probably its worth looking for an alternative.

SC

[Mobi]

kerry, I agree with almost 100% of your post, and is effectively what I too have been saying throughout this thread and others.

The only part I would take you to task over is your assertion that:"A power greater than me stopped me from drinking."

I'm sorry but you are wrong here. There is no power greater than you, you only THINK there is. You, Kerry, are the power that stopped yourself drinking.... not any mythical Higher Power....

But if believing in a Higher Power works for you, then more power to your elbow - good luck and stay sober.

[kerryk]

kerry, I agree with almost 100% of your post, and is effectively what I too have been saying throughout this thread and others.

The only part I would take you to task over is your assertion that:"A power greater than me stopped me from drinking."

I'm sorry but you are wrong here. There is no power greater than you, you only THINK there is. You, Kerry, are the power that stopped yourself drinking.... not any mythical Higher Power....

But if believing in a Higher Power works for you, then more power to your elbow - good luck and stay sober.

I didn't get a lot of things in AA and I still went to meetings. I can compare it to a physical act but that really doesn't do it justice. It is not quite the same.

I can think of times when a stadium of people chanted my name and I performed far beyond my normal capability as a young man involved in sports but that is not quite the same.

I can think of being lost in a forest and miraculously finding my way out but that is not quite the same.

I can think of the feelings I had at the birth and death of one of my children but those incidents are not quite the same.

I needed to admit I am powerless over alcohol. That allowed me to do things. It allowed me to work the steps. I couldn't have worked the steps unless I admitted that and got some humility.

I watched other people drink and they could do it but I could not. I am not as good as them. I failed in being able to drink. It is one of those things I can't do.

I have watched 2 people out of 2000 stop drinking by themselves. I am not as good as them either. I tried by myself and I couldn't do it.

AA helped me stop drinking. I gave up trying to do it myself.

Is AA my higher power? Maybe.

I try to give credit or blame where it belongs.

I didn't make a conscious decision at 14 years of age to become an alcoholic. I don't know what reason or combination of reasons or genetic preferences or psychological events made me become an alcoholic.

I tried to not be an alcoholic but I could not accomplish that feat. A power outside of myself did that. Perhaps it was coincidence that the desire to stop drinking was removed from me when I went to AA and accepted a higher power.

You imply I did it myself. Was it a lack of willpower that started me drinking and all of a sudden out of the blue I found the willpower to stop drinking after 30 years? Maybe. Although I have seen a lot of other people find that same willpower when they started going to AA meetings and accepted a higher power. Maybe it is all a coincidence.

Not to assign qualities to alcoholism that it does not have but perhaps alcoholism in an effort to survive makes resistance to a higher power a greater problem than it actually is.

If Suzy Creamcheese the most beautiful woman in the world asked me to convert to Shintoism before joining her in conjugal bliss it would be an easy decision.

[RickThai]

Mobi;

Wow. You've been sober for (only) 4 months? From your posts, I assumed you had been sober much longer. You certainly have a lot of insight helping keep you on track.

et, al.:

One thing that I was thinking about this morning as I lay in bed, was that a long-term drinker who continues to drink, is in some respects like a sex-addict who has spent a lifetime whoremongering and has contracted HIV. For this person to continue to have sex is basically an abomination. (I think or would hope, not too many here on this forum would disagree with that.)

It would show a person who was so selfish that he/she had no regard for anything other than his/her carnal pleasure. Now for a long-term drinker, who almost certainly has done serious damage to his/her liver, continuing to drink would be just as selfish, except that the damage would be to his/her liver, and ultimately to anyone who cared about that person.

I think both a sex-addict with HIV and an alcoholic would be better off, realizing that although their past indulgences may have been fun (or not), it is now time to show some respect for themselves (i.e. their liver) and anyone who might care about them.

For an individual who is totally alone and without any spirtual belief, I would hope that they would at least try and have a little respect for themselves before they drank themselves to death.

At one time, I thought I would continue to party on and "die like a man". I assumed that dying from a dysfunctional liver would be fairly quick and perhaps painless.. Slowly bleeding to death internally was how I envisioned it.

I was wrong. So wrong. On my first visit to the University of Colorado, I mentioned this to the doctor I was seeing. He told me that dying from a dieseased liver was very painfull, and the best I could hope for was to "drown in my own vomit".

I didn't know it then, but it turned out the doctor, who's name is Gregory T. Everson, is one of the world's leading authorities on liver diesease. He has written several, definitive books on the subject (go to Amazon.com and do a search on his name.

So my suggestion is rather than nitpick about what works and what won't work, stop drinking now, anyway you can, and stay sober. Whatever works for you, works for you, and you should be grateful for this last chance to live out your life with self-respect and dignity.

End-stage-liver-diesease has no diginity, believe me!

As for the comment about the forum's demographics, I think the poster may be assuming too much. I belive there is much more diversity (I actually hate that word), than one might think.

Myself, I am 58 years old, I retired last year after a very successful career as a medical device Software Engineer. Financially, I will never have to work again in my life (even if I live to be 100) and I probably will never have to even dip into my retirement savings as I have several lucrative, pensions from the various companies I have worked for over the years.

I have visited, worked in, or lived, in over 43 countries. I can count to 10 in about 1/2 dozen languages, and can sputter about in Italian, French, and Thai to one degree or another.

I'm sure there are lot's more people like me, who don't quite fit your category as well. Lot's of square pegs for these round holes (bad joke).

I hope this didn't come off as too much of a rant.

Enjoy your life, and show compassion, things go around faster than you might think!

Rick

[trisailer]

Who says I can't learn something from TV. Last night I googled "AA recidivism" and low and behold the science says that AA is no more effective (in double blind studies) than spontaneous recovery as currently being practiced by Mobi. Read it for yourself. As many people come to recovery and maintain sobriety without AA as with, apparently. I learned this trying to find the science to prove that someone who really wants to quit improves his odds by submitting to AA than just stopping on his own. Furthermore the god factor is not a proven influence in keeping even those who go to AA according to the science.

Having said that I believe that AA did help me and I would still recommend 90/90 to anyone seeking help for alcoholism. I think that change is hard, but what seems to push the process along for me is to do the opposite of what your instincts are telling you. Change happens when we get uncomfortable doing what we're doing.

I had to sleep on this discovery and reflect on what exactly the mechanism that helped me was. I was doing a lot of different things while I was in AA back in the 90's so it's hard to say, but what occurred to me is that I learned humility in AA. Up to that point I was a hard driving individualist completely focused on success. I actually had a tee shirt that said "lead, follow or get the fuc_k out of my way" The key element for me seems to be that I rebalanced my ability to empathize with other humans again. It was an important tool for my toolbox that helps me to live a more balanced life.

Whatever method you choose I wish you all well.

[Mobi]

Thank you your post, Rickthai and i don't regard it at a rant.

To say that I have only been sober for 4 months,(actually it's 4 months 20 days but I won't split hairs ) is, I think slightly misleading.

Last year, prior to to my total abstinence, I went through long periods of 99% sobriety for several months, particularity from around October. I only fell off the wagon a few times during that period, including a fairly bad one on New Year's Eve which finally convinced me that my drinking days were finally and irrevocably over.

I have had various periods of total sobriety in recent years, including one as long as 9 months, and each time you go through these, and each time you fail, you learn something about yourself and your alcoholism - in the same way that I learned a lot from AA, which I believe will also help me to stay sober, even though kerryk doesn't think that can be so.

In summary, I think I can say that yes - it is only 4 months and 20 days, but this 4 months and 20 days has come at the end of a long period of 'research', trial and error and learning about myself and my alcoholism, my life and my depressive tendencies.

I have posted here and elsewhere that for much of the past few years I have been suffering from severe depression and was on a high dose of anti-depressant medication for around 3 years until I finally weaned myself off of it in February of this year.

My depression, which at times caused me to feel very suicidal, went part and parcel with my alcoholism, but when I determined to stop drinking and change my life around, I found that I could also deal with my depression and so far I have been successful in this, although I admit that like the alcoholism, it is still early days. I have good days and bad days, but never bad enough to drive me to drink or become clinically depressed.

Early last year, when I was at my most suicidal, I sought out a therapist who was very instrumental in helping me to slowly change my life around. He, like me, was very much in favour of attending AA meetings and we had many long discussions on how the benefits of the spiritual side of AA has helped many people to find long term sobriety. I think that he also had his own misgivings about whether indeed there is a Higher Power out there somewhere, but conceded that for whatever reason, it certainly seemed to work for many people - which is also my view.

He also confirmed that through his work and research he knew of many alcoholics who had found sobriety without the assistance of AA, but for most, AA is the only option. He also told me that there were a few, rare, documented cases of alcoholics succeeding in converting themselves into moderate drinkers, but he warned me not to try.

On the subject of sex addiction - I think this is an entirely separate subject. My therapist, incidentally, saw absolutely nothing wrong with my predilection for young ladies of the night, and indeed we had some interesting discussions on older farangs with younger Thai partners having 'open' relationships, where both partners loved and cared for each other, but both had 'extra curricular' affairs from time to time. He knew of several such couples, and right now, one of my closest friends has a similar, 'open' relationship. We can all have our own opinions on this but I submit that it has little to do with alcoholism.

In these early days of my sobriety, my main purpose in life is to stay sober and if I am less than perfect in other respects, then so be it. I will deal with all that later as the alcoholic fog that I have lived with for much of my life, slowly clears from my brain and my cognitive functions return to normal. But I still do my best. Already I am a much calmer, more considerate person and I rarely, if ever, get angry - despite provocation. Previously, I would rant and rave at the slightest excuse, so I know that I have made much progress.

Like you Rick, I have lived in many different countries - from Africa to the Americas, to the Middle East, Europe and obviously Asia where I have lived and worked in several countries. It certainly gives you a wider, or maybe different perspective on life, and yes, like you I am usually a pretty much a square peg these days.

As regards liver disease - I have been pretty lucky for as far as I am aware, my liver is in pretty good shape. For me it is type 1 diabetes and heart disease that are my main enemies and every drink that I take will carry me one step nearer to the grave. When I wrote that the next drink would have serious medical consequences - what I meant was that the next drink would inevitably be followed by many, many more with the obvious and fatal effects on my health.

Right now my biggest problem is my inability to stir myself into taking some exercise and controlling my diet better. I am heavier than I have been all my life, very unfit and cannot stop myself gorging on sweet snacks at night - all of which are having a disastrous effect on my blood sugar levels.

But for a while, at least, it is better to be overweight, unfit and have elevated sugar levels than to start drinking again - so I will fight one battle at a time.

[kerryk]

Mobi,

I am puzzled by one thing. After reading your posts it does not seem to me that you were looking for advice. It seems you will continue on doing things the same as you have always been doing them. In fact you even think slips are a positive method of recovery.

The debate about disease or the God thing have been done millions of times surely you have heard all the arguments before.

Why did you make the OP?

[trisailer]

Mobi, that was one of the most well written, thoughtful posts I've read on TV. You are clearly on track and I apologize for misreading you.

After reading some about the science of recovery last night I was surprised to learn that your odds for staying sober are just a good with the approach your taking as the 90/90 that I was advocating.

Goggle AA recidivism and check it out. I hope it fortifies your effort to stay sober.

I will be forever grateful for the things I learned at AA and I still think it's a good place to start for people who don't know how to start or where to go. You have enough exposure to it to decide for yourself.

I think you have an advantage by journaling your progress. I frequently have to remind myself that progress and not perfection is my goal and that's an ongoing thing 20 years on.

I wish you well.

[kerryk]

Mobi, that was one of the most well written, thoughtful posts I've read on TV. You are clearly on track and I apologize for misreading you.

After reading some about the science of recovery last night I was surprised to learn that your odds for staying sober are just a good with the approach your taking as the 90/90 that I was advocating.

Goggle AA recidivism and check it out. I hope it fortifies your effort to stay sober.

I will be forever grateful for the things I learned at AA and I still think it's a good place to start for people who don't know how to start or where to go. You have enough exposure to it to decide for yourself.

I think you have an advantage by journaling your progress. I frequently have to remind myself that progress and not perfection is my goal and that's an ongoing thing 20 years on.

I wish you well.

I certainly wish you and Mobi well. But you are still a drug user and Mobi has only 5 months sober.

Hardly experts to be advising people.

That is OK for you and Mobi but many people are in dire straights seeking help to get off booze in AA.

Progress not perfection does not refer to not taking the first drink. The idea is not to stay sober for a few months, go on a binge, come back and say you have learned something.

If you want to propose an alternative to AA fine. Go ahead.

But to suggest AA is a gateway to learning and a temporary thing is totally against the precepts of AA.

I think I wrote in another post that AA has a success rate of about 5%. That means not drinking, total abstinence. AA is not a drug rehab program.

AA is about booze. Frankly Trisailor I think you are in the wrong place. I don't think you have a booze problem. I think you had a drug problem. Correct me if I am wrong and I mean no insult by that.

Please don't construe my comments as advice to you or Mobi. I don't think you want or need any. The only reason I post is for the couple of thousand of people who may read this thread and get the wrong idea about AA. Not that I am an AA spokesperson and anyone feel free to correct me if AA suggests anything but total lifelong abstinence and not taking the first drink. AA does not pat people on the back for having a slip. AA welcomes them back into AA certainly but does not congratulate them for going out. AA suggests going to meetings and working the steps as necessary to staying sober.

In my opinion AA is a good place to start and if you want to stop drinking it is a good place to stay. Mobi has not managed to stay sober for more than a few months with his system. It would be nice to hear from others who have. Although Mobi's story is interesting it is certainly not a prescription for staying sober. Which is what this forum is about.

[Mobi]

Mobi,

I am puzzled by one thing. After reading your posts it does not seem to me that you were looking for advice. It seems you will continue on doing things the same as you have always been doing them. In fact you even think slips are a positive method of recovery.

The debate about disease or the God thing have been done millions of times surely you have heard all the arguments before.

Why did you make the OP?

I am puzzled your post.

I started a thread about alcoholism, and wrote a long tract about whether it is a disease and whether God can cure it. I think I made some telling/interesting/controversial points, both from medical research and from my personal research, observations and opinions. Thus I set out my stall for a lively debate. I certainly did not start this thread to get any advice, but of course good advice is always welcome. The purpose of the thread is debate - pure and simple.

The fact that this thread has so far had 142 replies, 1846 views and is running into it's fifth page tells me, at least, that I have generated considerable interest.

Indeed, many of the posters have stated that much of the medical information on alcoholism I posted was new to them and they found it interesting.

If, as you state,

The debate about disease or the God thing have been done millions of times surely you have heard all the arguments before.

then why is there is so much interest in this thread,and why are so many people who have a background in this subject contributing to it, including you?

Why do you, kerryk, bother with it?

If it's been done to death, then so be it, why don't you go and find something that is more of an intellectual challenge?

I fear that your real motive behind this post is that you are becoming increasingly frustrated that you are losing the argument here and you are now trying to trash the thread as a way of discrediting everything that appears in it.

[Mobi]

Thank you trisailer for your kind comments.

In the spirit of one recovering alcoholic to another, I will consider our little feud at and end, apologise for anything I have said that was offensive wish you well in your quest for long term sobriety.

Peace and stay sober...

[Mobi]

I certainly wish you and Mobi well. But you are still a drug user and Mobi has only 5 months sober.

Hardly experts to be advising people.

That is OK for you and Mobi but many people are in dire straights seeking help to get off booze in AA.

Progress not perfection does not refer to not taking the first drink. The idea is not to stay sober for a few months, go on a binge, come back and say you have learned something.

If you want to propose an alternative to AA fine. Go ahead.

But to suggest AA is a gateway to learning and a temporary thing is totally against the precepts of AA.

I think I wrote in another post that AA has a success rate of about 5%. That means not drinking, total abstinence. AA is not a drug rehab program.

AA is about booze. Frankly Trisailor I think you are in the wrong place. I don't think you have a booze problem. I think you had a drug problem. Correct me if I am wrong and I mean no insult by that.

Please don't construe my comments as advice to you or Mobi. I don't think you want or need any. The only reason I post is for the couple of thousand of people who may read this thread and get the wrong idea about AA. Not that I am an AA spokesperson and anyone feel free to correct me if AA suggests anything but total lifelong abstinence and not taking the first drink. AA does not pat people on the back for having a slip. AA welcomes them back into AA certainly but does not congratulate them for going out. AA suggests going to meetings and working the steps as necessary to staying sober.

In my opinion AA is a good place to start and if you want to stop drinking it is a good place to stay. Mobi has not managed to stay sober for more than a few months with his system. It would be nice to hear from others who have. Although Mobi's story is interesting it is certainly not a prescription for staying sober. Which is what this forum is about.

Kerryk, your posts are increasingly smacking of desperation.

You seem to know you are losing the debate and now use that time -honoured method - so beloved of old timers in AA - to trash anything that is said that you don't agree with by saying things like 'you are a drug addict' and 'you only have a few months sobriety' and 'Hardly experts to be advising people', so our opinions are worthless.

Maybe the couple of thousand people who have read this thread have got the right idea about AA - particularly when they read the patronising style that you adopt to trash anyone who opposes you view. You are spoiling your own arguments, but you are so convinced that you are right and the rest of the world is wrong that you can't see it.

Anyway, I guess you can't help yourself, so can we please just agree to disagree and keep the patronizing rubbish out of the debate?

A drunk, a person with one day's sobriety,a teetotaller and just about anyone else in this wide world has a valid opinion and is entitled to be heard. You and AA do not have a monopoly on what is right and wrong as far alcoholism is concerned.

You would do well to dwell on this as it might make your arguments more plausible and acceptable in future debates. Show a little humility and less arrogance my friend.

Peace and serenity....

BTW the title of this forum is "I drink too much" - not sure that is the same as saying this forum is all about a "prescription for staying sober". It could easily be interpreted as a forum for advice on how to moderate drinking, so that you don't 'drink too much.....'

[RickThai]

Thank you your post, Rickthai and i don't regard it at a rant.

To say that I have only been sober for 4 months,(actually it's 4 months 20 days but I won't split hairs ) is, I think slightly misleading.

Last year, prior to to my total abstinence, I went through long periods of 99% sobriety for several months, particularity from around October. I only fell off the wagon a few times during that period, including a fairly bad one on New Year's Eve which finally convinced me that my drinking days were finally and irrevocably over.

I have had various periods of total sobriety in recent years, including one as long as 9 months, and each time you go through these, and each time you fail, you learn something about yourself and your alcoholism - in the same way that I learned a lot from AA, which I believe will also help me to stay sober, even though kerryk doesn't think that can be so.

In summary, I think I can say that yes - it is only 4 months and 20 days, but this 4 months and 20 days has come at the end of a long period of 'research', trial and error and learning about myself and my alcoholism, my life and my depressive tendencies.

I have posted here and elsewhere that for much of the past few years I have been suffering from severe depression and was on a high dose of anti-depressant medication for around 3 years until I finally weaned myself off of it in February of this year.

My depression, which at times caused me to feel very suicidal, went part and parcel with my alcoholism, but when I determined to stop drinking and change my life around, I found that I could also deal with my depression and so far I have been successful in this, although I admit that like the alcoholism, it is still early days. I have good days and bad days, but never bad enough to drive me to drink or become clinically depressed.

Early last year, when I was at my most suicidal, I sought out a therapist who was very instrumental in helping me to slowly change my life around. He, like me, was very much in favour of attending AA meetings and we had many long discussions on how the benefits of the spiritual side of AA has helped many people to find long term sobriety. I think that he also had his own misgivings about whether indeed there is a Higher Power out there somewhere, but conceded that for whatever reason, it certainly seemed to work for many people - which is also my view.

He also confirmed that through his work and research he knew of many alcoholics who had found sobriety without the assistance of AA, but for most, AA is the only option. He also told me that there were a few, rare, documented cases of alcoholics succeeding in converting themselves into moderate drinkers, but he warned me not to try.

On the subject of sex addiction - I think this is an entirely separate subject. My therapist, incidentally, saw absolutely nothing wrong with my predilection for young ladies of the night, and indeed we had some interesting discussions on older farangs with younger Thai partners having 'open' relationships, where both partners loved and cared for each other, but both had 'extra curricular' affairs from time to time. He knew of several such couples, and right now, one of my closest friends has a similar, 'open' relationship. We can all have our own opinions on this but I submit that it has little to do with alcoholism.

In these early days of my sobriety, my main purpose in life is to stay sober and if I am less than perfect in other respects, then so be it. I will deal with all that later as the alcoholic fog that I have lived with for much of my life, slowly clears from my brain and my cognitive functions return to normal. But I still do my best. Already I am a much calmer, more considerate person and I rarely, if ever, get angry - despite provocation. Previously, I would rant and rave at the slightest excuse, so I know that I have made much progress.

Like you Rick, I have lived in many different countries - from Africa to the Americas, to the Middle East, Europe and obviously Asia where I have lived and worked in several countries. It certainly gives you a wider, or maybe different perspective on life, and yes, like you I am usually a pretty much a square peg these days.

As regards liver disease - I have been pretty lucky for as far as I am aware, my liver is in pretty good shape. For me it is type 1 diabetes and heart disease that are my main enemies and every drink that I take will carry me one step nearer to the grave. When I wrote that the next drink would have serious medical consequences - what I meant was that the next drink would inevitably be followed by many, many more with the obvious and fatal effects on my health.

Right now my biggest problem is my inability to stir myself into taking some exercise and controlling my diet better. I am heavier than I have been all my life, very unfit and cannot stop myself gorging on sweet snacks at night - all of which are having a disastrous effect on my blood sugar levels.

But for a while, at least, it is better to be overweight, unfit and have elevated sugar levels than to start drinking again - so I will fight one battle at a time.

Mobi:

Thanks for such a heartfelt and revealing post. I wish you much success in your on-going battle with diabetes and your heart problems. I to have had my battles with depression at various times in my life. One thing you might want to look into if you haven't tried it before; is something called "The Law of Attraction". It is bascially a belief system that is based more upon spirituality as a natural phenomon rather than a set of dogmatic, organized beliefs.

I spent some time with a friend who has been following its philosophy for about 5 years, as a result of that time, I now find myself, waking up in the morning "Happy, for no good reason at all!" Whenever I find myself worrying about something or slightly depressed, I think about its philosophies and I feel better almost immediately. In some ways it is similar to Bhuddism, but it much more practimatic and concerns itself with the vibrations every living thing emits. The basic idea is when you are doing something that you feel is, "right", your personal vibrations are at harmonic frequency, and thus happiness and good things are attracted to you. Doing things that you instinctually feel are wrong, forces your body into an unnatural frequency, and once out of sync, poor health, financial troubles, and depression sets in.

I don't know if I buy everything about the theory, but I do know that when you doing something that is '"right" you know it and it brings happiness. Doing things that you know are "wrong" brings me an unsettled feeling of doom, or sadness, no matter how hard I try to rationalize and justify what I do.

I feel that based upon your posts, you are on the right track to spiritual/mental 'rightness', and your life will get better.

Rick

[kerryk]

I wasn't trying to debate you Mobi. I guess I misread your OP. I was sharing some of my experiences, mainly because we had a friend in common.

To debate you I would have to criticize your path and I have tried not to do that. I was not always successful, sorry.

There has been some mention of other ways to stop drinking besides AA. Of making your own system.

Of using AA as part of some personal plan instead of embracing AA as the plan.

Perhaps in other parts of the world that may be possible but this is Thailand. The only options for most of us in Thailand is AA or the highway.

You make the point that experience with alcoholism should not effect ones credibility. You said quote, “A drunk, a person with one day's sobriety,a teetotaller and just about anyone else in this wide world has a valid opinion and is entitled to be heard. You and AA do not have a monopoly on what is right and wrong as far alcoholism is concerned.”

I would contrast that with my advice, of going to AA meetings for a year before saying anything. Further I think that it takes 5 years to begin thinking straight and even more telling 10 or 20 years before one should begin giving advice to others about drinking.

I would never consider having a sponsor with less than 10 years sobriety. Nor would I suggest anyone have a sponsor with less than 10 years of sobriety.

To restate my opinion very clearly I don't feel that a person with less than 10 or 20 years sobriety has the tools to form a clear opinion about alcoholism.

You are correct I think a persons opinions with less than 10 or 20 years sobriety are worthless as far as alcoholism is concerned.

I say this based on personal experience. However eloquent it takes time in the trenches to get wisdom. Arithmetic can be taught as can biology. Alcoholism is so complicated and so little is known about it by the scientific community that I feel the experts are the guys who have been in AA for 20 years.

So Mobi we are at completely different poles in the discussion.

I don't want to take your inventory. So lets not talk about you.

If I wanted to learn about sailing the Sydney to Hobart sailboat race I would seek out a person who had finished the race numerous times. I wouldn't put much credence in the advice of the sailor who had dropped out after the first day on numerous occasions.

Sorry if it sounds patronizing but when a newcomer goes to an AA meeting he is presented with a number of choices. There are groups within the group at every meeting. Newcomers (less than 5 years sobriety), old hands, the religious set and nutty people to name a few. It is easier for the newcomer to hang with the other new members and go through the same debates that most new members of AA go through including the God and disease debate.

If you want a fast track to long lasting sobriety find an old hand that is willing to sponsor you and listen to him. He has been there and has the tools to help you gain long term sobriety. Is it the easiest softest way? No.

In my experience it is better to ask for a temporary sponsor. It is hard to see ourselves as others see us.

I know during my first few years in AA I was crazy. 30 years of drinking had taken their toll on my sanity as well as my life. A crazy person asking for a temporary sponsor is more likely to get a positive response.

I changed a lot during the my first 6 years in AA. I made all the mistakes except falling off the wagon. When I felt like a drink I called my sponsor.

I also made another incredibly dumb move and started dating a lady in AA with less than a year of sobriety. Which is another interesting point, never date a person in AA with less than a years sobriety and preferably more. For a number of different reasons but it also talks to the point of experience.

Women are especially vulnerable during the first 12 months of sobriety. That's why I mentioned before women should go to women's groups for the first few years. Although I must admit I have met some interesting women at the Pattaya meetings.

Mobi I hope you don't think my posts were about you. Since this forum is about drinking too much they were about drinking too much and how to stop drinking too much. Nothing personal intended.

[Sheryl]

Some posts are verging on flaming language and would have been edited had I seen them earlier.

Please keep it civil and refrain from personal attacks.

[Mobi]

Hmm.

To restate my opinion very clearly I don't feel that a person with less than 10 or 20 years sobriety has the tools to form a clear opinion about alcoholism.

You are correct I think a persons opinions with less than 10 or 20 years sobriety are worthless as far as alcoholism is concerned.

I'm glad but somehow sad that I have understood you correctly. What you have stated will probably horrify a great deal of people, including , I suspect, a great many within AA itself.

Let me put it this way: There are a number of religious sects in the USA who are convinced that the world will end today and the second coming of Jesus Christ is imminent. I would imagine that you, like most sensible thinking folks, will not only reject this prediction out of hand, but will also laugh at it. But to the folks who believe in this, it is every bit as real to them as a Higher Power is to many recovering alcoholics.

What these 'end of the world ' folks will be saying tomorrow is anyone's guess, but I have no doubt that they will dream up a new twist to explain away the 'postponement of Armageddon'.

Similarly, as the accumulation of scientific evidence tells us that we are here in this universe as a more or less biological accident - a freak of genetic mutation - and that alcoholism is a medically identifiable disease, which places a highly addictive chemical in the brain, the the AA folk will continue to stick to their guns, and insist it is all down to a Higher Power to cure us.

Tell me, why should a Higher Power cure alcoholism, yet not be able to cure cancer? Both diseases are created by a deadly chemical in the body's system.

Tthe only advice I have given here - and I have given it over and over and over again - is for people who seek sobriety to go to AA meetings. Others who also share my views to one extent or another, are also giving the same advice. So by your reasoning we shouldn't be giving this advice as we are unqualified to do so and our advice is worthless.....

Did it ever occur to you that at least some of the folk who claim 20 or more years sobriety may never have been alcoholics in the first place? It has to me - I am highly suspicious of some of these 'decades-long' recovering alkies who preach their stuff at AA meetings and then often practice something very different.