Middle Class, Elite Must Take The Blame For Thailand's Ills

[aaacorp]

One of my friend is pro yellow and even told me that to have a correct country thailand should apply this principle: for each 1 millions baht in your account you can have 1 vote...less than one million...no vote...

This is democracy

Would that apply to farangs as well - hell , we could end up running the country !!!

As the yellow are most of the time not so enjoyed about farangs i don't think the PAD will agree

[jimbeam1]

Rural folks, they argue, are, "uneducated", "naive", "politically immature", "subject to manipulation", "corrupt" and thus not fit to elect their own governor or even village headman.

You made them that way, so you can't complain.

Lock a dog inside the house and then beat it for pissing on the carpet, don't be surprised if after one beating too many, it rips your bloody legs off.

Well said. Spot on.

jb1

[jimbeam1]

Its not the middle-class, elites or even the rural poor thats the problem.......its the whole country! Thais generally do not have any morals or ethics. Even the monks in this country are so greedy and materialistic. This country is beyond salvation.Stop complaining and just go on till the day it totally decays. The only way maybe is to start by having all the politicians publicly tried and executed as there is not a single decent politician in this country that can help run this country and also all the top govt officials. Only by making a public example , then maybe something could start changing....maybe!

Then in the morning we can wake up?

jb1

[whybother]

The fact that the current government is the result of a coup d'etat by the military ...

perfectly right

Except for the part about the current government ... unless you consider that all governments since 1932 are a result of a coup d'etat, of course.

[jonclark]

The fact that the current government is the result of a coup d'etat by the military is not a good beginning to reform a country that has such a turbulent history. The Burmese raiding the Thai capital and making Thais move it two times after the Sukhothai period. Thailand raiding of Angkor Wat and annexing territories in Cambodia resulting in 13 new Thai provinces. Opening the doors of Thailand to the Japanese to setup concentration camps and army bases on Thai soil. From the times of Suriyothai Thailand has been at war within itself or the neighbors. That creates a special mentality favoring intrigue, corruption and military might as viable means of governing. Today's Thailand is a consequence of its history. Why then is common knowledge that positions in the military can be purchased? Why at the lowest level we know that bogus traffic violations are easily fixed with the right brand of "tea money"? Why is the charge of Lesse Majeste used as a way to silence the voice of the people? Why no one is clamoring for a true in depth investigation into the assassination of Se Dang? It would be a dangerous assertion by the elitist minds to dismiss it as non important and/or sweep it under the rug. Why a 16 year old, without a driver license, drives her car in to a mini van causing and accident that kills 8 people and walks free and the parents are not held accountable? These are merely the symptoms of a corrupt and dysfunctional state. Why the elites governing the country care more about Bangkok than the rest of the country? Because in this megalopolis live about 1/6 of the country's population. Rome understood this equation very well and gave the citizens bread and circus to keep the city-state happy. But the provinces rebelled and eventually the hegemony of the metropolis crumbled and in time the total demise of the Empire followed. This parallel illustrates the lack of balance between the ruling class favoring the city in which they live and govern and the rest of a country that feels forsaken. For as long as the status quo continues, there will always be another Taksin taking his place and the same dynamics will remain extant. It is only too easy to blame a fugitive ex PM as the root of all the ills that affect this lovely country. The causes that produced a Taksin and an Abhisit existed for centuries before them. One thing is for sure: the masses, the majority of the population is feeling increasingly restless. The writing is on the wall. I only hope and pray that the powers that be read it.

perfectly right

good post. bang on the money

[pedro01]

I wonder how many members here work/socialise with what is Bangkoks "Middle Class".

We aren't talking movie starts and actresses - but regular Thai people with a degree and a good job.

These are not the 'elitists' said to be running Thailand. Most I know are regular folk and a large percentage of them have parents that scrimped and saved to put them through school for a better life.

These people are absolutely NOT the problem.

[trisailer]

Let me repeat what I have said before;

You who think you know best for Thailand shouldn't be slamming Thailand from the safety of your home. Go out and proclaim your wisdom to the Thai people. I'm sure they will welcome your unbiased critique and immediatly recognise your superior intelligence. You singing to the choir here because there is seemingly no end of folks who think they know best for Thailand.

Go to Bangkok and sit in on a session or two and report back.

[Squigy]

I live in the Issan area and from my observations of the people around my village who have a very very basic education they seem to be be happy with their lot, growing rice and just being dam_n lazy most of the time!!

I really believe that the so called Bangkok elite along with the rural "hi so's" here (not many of them) have got it pretty good with the control they have over the local's. The local's seem to think that what they have is enough and that living day by day is the way to go.

Nobody here in the village that I live in has any idea how to plan for the future, how to make there lot better by getting out of rice and into bio corn for example. They don't want to they just want to continue in the ways that they have done for decades.

Education here is just a big joke. Nobody goes to learn at the local schools, they all go to play around.. the teachers are more interested in sleeping on the job and planting and harvesting their own rice crops. When I pay a visit to the local school to see how the kids are getting on all the teachers run and hide as they do not wish or are incapable of talking to a native English speaker.

The teachers get paid every month regardless so why bother to teach the kids.

No in my mind education is the key to the future and I mean EDUCATION. Not the crap that is dished out now!

Bill

[jdinasia]

I wonder how many members here work/socialise with what is Bangkoks "Middle Class".

We aren't talking movie starts and actresses - but regular Thai people with a degree and a good job.

These are not the 'elitists' said to be running Thailand. Most I know are regular folk and a large percentage of them have parents that scrimped and saved to put them through school for a better life.

These people are absolutely NOT the problem.

True, the middle class are the ones actually paying the taxes that end up used for populist schemes that so often fail to deliver anything meaningful.

The "elite" however are not centralized in BKK, and if you look at regional power structures it appears that THEY (and less so the "BKK elite") that are keeping the problems alive upcountry. They skim off all the cream and trickle down some thin milk to the people that they keep paying to keep them in power in the region.

[Crushdepth]

The fact that the current government is the result of a coup d'etat by the military ...

perfectly right

Completely wrong. We have had an ELECTION since the coup, or have you forgotten? Unfortunately "Thai Rak Thai MKII" was dissolved for ELECTORAL FRAUD, thereby losing their grip on power. This allowed the present coalition government to be formed, from the remaining MPs.

It's amazing how many people still think we have a "coup government", and - incredibly - that canning politicians who commit electoral fraud is somehow "undemocratic".

Edited May 4, 2011 by Crushdepth

[jayjayjayjay]

I wonder how many members here work/socialise with what is Bangkoks "Middle Class".

We aren't talking movie starts and actresses - but regular Thai people with a degree and a good job.

These are not the 'elitists' said to be running Thailand. Most I know are regular folk and a large percentage of them have parents that scrimped and saved to put them through school for a better life.

These people are absolutely NOT the problem.

True, the middle class are the ones actually paying the taxes that end up used for populist schemes that so often fail to deliver anything meaningful.

The "elite" however are not centralized in BKK, and if you look at regional power structures it appears that THEY (and less so the "BKK elite") that are keeping the problems alive upcountry. They skim off all the cream and trickle down some thin milk to the people that they keep paying to keep them in power in the region.

What rubbish.

"The middle class are the ones actually paying taxes" Sorry but every single person across the country pays. Every time jnr walks into a 7/11 he pays the cumulative 7% for VAT. Every single farmers products are taxed and he pays taxes on chemicals and fertilizers contributing to it's output. Every single person with a motorbike pays tax at the pump. No middle class person pays any more in share of taxes than any other citizen in the country. This type of thought is what causes the true evil of the elite to think they are so much better. You really need to travel out to a village sometime. Your misleading statement is as ridiculous at the 5000 post you've posted pro-PAD.

The elite, the Amataya are based in Bangkok. Those close to the powers above all power are bkk based, Military whom are part of this elite are Bkk based, the large percentage of academics in this elite are bkk based. There is very little of the true elite upcountry. The Chidchobs and Shinawatra's may be rich and upcountry, but they are not part of the elite. Get you story straight.

Edited May 4, 2011 by jayjayjayjay

[jdinasia]

jayjayjayetc

Huh?

I assume you are

1) unaware of income tax (based on this quote)

No middle class person pays any more in share of taxes than any other citizen in the country. This type of thought is what causes the true evil of the elite to think they are so much better. You really need to travel out to a village sometime.

and

2) unaware of what is NOT taxed, and most particularly unaware of who does and who does not collect VAT. Based upon your thoughts on VAT.

Your misunderstanding of the use of the word "elite" is an issue I just can't help you with if you do not think that the word applies to anyone upcountry, or that it generally applies to academics ever

[whybother]

What rubbish.

"The middle class are the ones actually paying taxes" Sorry but every single person across the country pays. Every time jnr walks into a 7/11 he pays the cumulative 7% for VAT. Every single farmers products are taxed and he pays taxes on chemicals and fertilizers contributing to it's output. Every single person with a motorbike pays tax at the pump. No middle class person pays any more in share of taxes than any other citizen in the country. This type of thought is what causes the true evil of the elite to think they are so much better. You really need to travel out to a village sometime. Your misleading statement is as ridiculous at the 5000 post you've posted pro-PAD.

The elite, the Amataya are based in Bangkok. Those close to the powers above all power are bkk based, Military whom are part of this elite are Bkk based, the large percentage of academics in this elite are bkk based. There is very little of the true elite upcountry. The Chidchobs and Shinawatra's may be rich and upcountry, but they are not part of the elite. Get you story straight.

The farmers are paying income tax, are they? Only 12 million Thais submit tax returns. I doubt the farmers are in this group.

You seem to be narrowing down the criteria for your Amataya to suit the standard stereotype propaganda used by the red shirts. The Chidchobs and Shinawatra's may not be part of your "elite", but they, and the other rich upcountry families, do as much to keep the farmers and upcountry people poor as anyone in Bangkok.

[Crushdepth]

I dislike this "elite" word because it is just populist "sloganeering". If Thai *voters* want the country to improve, they have to start *punishing* corruption at the ballot box. If you sell your vote or elect a politician you know is corrupt, who is to blame?

The "elite"?

[jayboy]

Your misunderstanding of the use of the word "elite" is an issue I just can't help you ...

I have to echo this with respect to your own expressed position.Of course there are local rich families who operate under a patronage system but unless you deliberately wish to muddy the waters you must be aware the elite in the context being used has a very precise meaning.Why you have inserted academics into this picture is a mystery.For those interested Duncan McCargo covers this ground very well.

[whybother]

<snip>

The elite, the Amataya are based in Bangkok. Those close to the powers above all power are bkk based, Military whom are part of this elite are Bkk based, the large percentage of academics in this elite are bkk based. There is very little of the true elite upcountry. The Chidchobs and Shinawatra's may be rich and upcountry, but they are not part of the elite. Get you story straight.

<snip>

Your misunderstanding of the use of the word "elite" is an issue I just can't help you with if you do not think that the word applies to anyone upcountry, or that it generally applies to academics ever

I have to echo this with respect to your own expressed position.Of course there are local rich families who operate under a patronage system but unless you deliberately wish to muddy the waters you must be aware the elite in the context being used has a very precise meaning.Why you have inserted academics into this picture is a mystery.For those interested Duncan McCargo covers this ground very well.

Why he inserted academics into the picture should no longer be a mystery.

*my bolding

[jdinasia]

Your misunderstanding of the use of the word "elite" is an issue I just can't help you ...

I have to echo this with respect to your own expressed position.Of course there are local rich families who operate under a patronage system but unless you deliberately wish to muddy the waters you must be aware the elite in the context being used has a very precise meaning.Why you have inserted academics into this picture is a mystery.For those interested Duncan McCargo covers this ground very well.

Actually, you have a point. "in the context used" DOES have a precise meaning. That assigned to it by the elite backing the redshirts wishing this to be a class war (which it obviously is not) and trying to "muddy the waters" over their very real upcountry control which is what in fact keeps the rural poor down FAR more than anything happening in BKK. If you don't read the post I am replying to which had "academics" listed in with the "elite" .........

[whybother]

I have to echo this with respect to your own expressed position.Of course there are local rich families who operate under a patronage system but unless you deliberately wish to muddy the waters you must be aware the elite in the context being used has a very precise meaning.Why you have inserted academics into this picture is a mystery.For those interested Duncan McCargo covers this ground very well.

"Elite" is usually used by red shirt supporters specifically as the rich people in Bangkok who have certain connections, and these "elite" are specifically blamed for keeping the poor farmers and their families poor and uneducated.

What the red shirt supporters fail to consider (conveniently, I might add, as it doesn't fit the propaganda that they put out) is that the rich people upcountry (usually red shirts) who have their own connections do as much or more damage to the farmers than the "elite" in Bangkok.

[Robby nz]

Yes the corruption and manipulation of the system certainly need to be stopped.

They forgot to mention the elite and super rich K Thaksin who must be held responsible for much of the countries recent problems and who encouraged corruption when he was in power.

If you really want to see large scale corruption and manipulation of the non thinking try googeling Koch Brothers and see what they are up to.

[bangkokburning]

I was told many years ago in Myanmar....

Chinese are good at saving money

We (Burman) are good at spending it.

The issue here is quite complex. I am certainly not up for blaming a barely emerging middle class for what ails Thailand.

70% ruling elite

20% poor and under class

20% mc

This country ought to take a hard look at what is going on in the ME because its Thailands destiny. Land of Smiles - bwah!

[jayboy]

I have to echo this with respect to your own expressed position.Of course there are local rich families who operate under a patronage system but unless you deliberately wish to muddy the waters you must be aware the elite in the context being used has a very precise meaning.Why you have inserted academics into this picture is a mystery.For those interested Duncan McCargo covers this ground very well.

"Elite" is usually used by red shirt supporters specifically as the rich people in Bangkok who have certain connections, and these "elite" are specifically blamed for keeping the poor farmers and their families poor and uneducated.

What the red shirt supporters fail to consider (conveniently, I might add, as it doesn't fit the propaganda that they put out) is that the rich people upcountry (usually red shirts) who have their own connections do as much or more damage to the farmers than the "elite" in Bangkok.

It's far more than red shirt supporters - a whole range of credible scholars, academics and commentators - both Thai and foreign.

In response to jdinasia there are elements of class conflict in Thailand's current politics whatever state of denial he is in, but it's also more complicated than that.

To be honest I find his position a bit simple minded.It appears for him that anyone rich and powerful is part of the ruling elite.Take Thailand out of it and consider the English civil war in the seventeenth century.It is now clear that the key movers came from very similar landed gentry backgrounds on both sides, and yet what each side wanted for their country was completely different.

[gregb]

The author of this article has completely missed the point. I offer the following scenario to clarify:

Imagine you are living in a small town. You elect a mayor to the town. The mayor rapes your daughter, but hands out free gifts to everyone else in town. When you rightfully complain, you are told by the "majority" "Hey...this is a democracy. You are only 1 person and we don't care about you. We like the free stuff he gives us. Deal with it or we'll form a mob and drive you out of town."

It has nothing to do with the middle class not respecting the rural class (which actually is a misanthropic way of portraying the anti reds against the red supporters. It is not elite vs. rural, despite the propaganda this writer tries to spew.) . It has everything to do with the contempt shown by the red supporters for the crimes Thaksin has committed against many people in this country. If the red supporters would simply take responsibility for their irresponsible behavior in supporting a criminal, the rest of the problems could be resolved.

The anti red supporters are quite willing to prosecute those who commit crimes against their red brethren. Unfortunately the red supporters don't share this value system. They don't want honest democracy. They don't want to be responsible for their votes and abiding by the rule of law. They want free stuff, and they don't care whose daughters get raped in the process.

[ib1b4]

Yes the corruption and manipulation of the system certainly need to be stopped.

They forgot to mention the elite and super rich K Thaksin who must be held responsible for much of the countries recent problems and who encouraged corruption when he was in power.

If you really want to see large scale corruption and manipulation of the non thinking try googeling Koch Brothers and see what they are up to.

You make reference to K Thaksin as the super rich, are you aware that he and his family is #15 on the Thailand rich list .

[Robby nz]

Yes the corruption and manipulation of the system certainly need to be stopped.

They forgot to mention the elite and super rich K Thaksin who must be held responsible for much of the countries recent problems and who encouraged corruption when he was in power.

If you really want to see large scale corruption and manipulation of the non thinking try googeling Koch Brothers and see what they are up to.

You make reference to K Thaksin as the super rich, are you aware that he and his family is #15 on the Thailand rich list .

Ok if you want to be pedantic, lets make that one of the top 15 super rich in the country, or out of in his case.

[Heng]

If all the poor stopped buying alcohol every hour...stopped buying cigarettes...stopped buying high heel shoes everyday...stopped inking tattoos all over their bodies...wore helmets and not need emergency care...and lived more for tomorrow...Maybe they would be rich!

Another one is stop playing the over and underground lottery (often on credit). Yes we know they want the toys and to have fun... as a weak excuse, they point at the well to do who spend money like water and conveniently ignore that such wealth often took decades or even generations to build.

[ib1b4]

Yes the corruption and manipulation of the system certainly need to be stopped.

They forgot to mention the elite and super rich K Thaksin who must be held responsible for much of the countries recent problems and who encouraged corruption when he was in power.

If you really want to see large scale corruption and manipulation of the non thinking try googeling Koch Brothers and see what they are up to.

You make reference to K Thaksin as the super rich, are you aware that he and his family is #15 on the Thailand rich list .

Ok if you want to be pedantic, lets make that one of the top 15 super rich in the country, or out of in his case.

Hook line & sinker. thank you.

[aaacorp]

The author of this article has completely missed the point. I offer the following scenario to clarify:

Imagine you are living in a small town. You elect a mayor to the town. The mayor rapes your daughter, but hands out free gifts to everyone else in town. When you rightfully complain, you are told by the "majority" "Hey...this is a democracy. You are only 1 person and we don't care about you. We like the free stuff he gives us. Deal with it or we'll form a mob and drive you out of town."

It has nothing to do with the middle class not respecting the rural class (which actually is a misanthropic way of portraying the anti reds against the red supporters. It is not elite vs. rural, despite the propaganda this writer tries to spew.) . It has everything to do with the contempt shown by the red supporters for the crimes Thaksin has committed against many people in this country. If the red supporters would simply take responsibility for their irresponsible behavior in supporting a criminal, the rest of the problems could be resolved.

The anti red supporters are quite willing to prosecute those who commit crimes against their red brethren. Unfortunately the red supporters don't share this value system. They don't want honest democracy. They don't want to be responsible for their votes and abiding by the rule of law. They want free stuff, and they don't care whose daughters get raped in the process.

Except such scenario cannot exist because the rape is still in most countries a crime and in a country where it s not a crime, there is obviously no democracy.

The fact is democracy is that : the majority of people who want to elect a particular people...and the majority may be wrong for sure, but at least they CHOOSE who they wanted. Sure this system is not the best one, but everybody can exprim his own choice....in Thailand the red are manipulated by Thaksin, but maybe the opposition could imagine, just imagine that educate people may lead them to vote better the next time... By leaving majority of people in ignorance you just played the game a guy like thaksin loves. Basically the desire to leave the people uneducated CREATED thaksin....and believe it or not, the yellow have their responsabilities in this.

So for exemple, the current government could have tried to educate them and go "on the field" instead of avoiding it....

[jdinasia]

I have to echo this with respect to your own expressed position.Of course there are local rich families who operate under a patronage system but unless you deliberately wish to muddy the waters you must be aware the elite in the context being used has a very precise meaning.Why you have inserted academics into this picture is a mystery.For those interested Duncan McCargo covers this ground very well.

"Elite" is usually used by red shirt supporters specifically as the rich people in Bangkok who have certain connections, and these "elite" are specifically blamed for keeping the poor farmers and their families poor and uneducated.

What the red shirt supporters fail to consider (conveniently, I might add, as it doesn't fit the propaganda that they put out) is that the rich people upcountry (usually red shirts) who have their own connections do as much or more damage to the farmers than the "elite" in Bangkok.

It's far more than red shirt supporters - a whole range of credible scholars, academics and commentators - both Thai and foreign.

In response to jdinasia there are elements of class conflict in Thailand's current politics whatever state of denial he is in, but it's also more complicated than that.

To be honest I find his position a bit simple minded.It appears for him that anyone rich and powerful is part of the ruling elite.Take Thailand out of it and consider the English civil war in the seventeenth century.It is now clear that the key movers came from very similar landed gentry backgrounds on both sides, and yet what each side wanted for their country was completely different.

"simple minded"

LOL -- simply can't go without personal digs at people can you?

Simply put --- comparing Thailand to England in the 17th century is a fallacious argument, much as suggesting that what the redshirt leadership wanting as being different than the other group of "elite" wanting is. The redshirt leaders want a pretense of a "class struggle" because it (obviously) snows so many (western) people. The simple fact remains that it is one group of elite fighting with a different group of elite .... for the money ... and everything else is just window dressing.

[Scott]

Please keep the discussion on topic. It's interesting. Please avoid accusing people of things they didn't say. I think the reference was made not to you, but to your position:

"To be honest I find his position a bit simple minded."

[Siripon]

It was said on the television today that Mingkwan couldn't leave Pheua Thai because he had run out of funds and sponsors to support his faction of MPs. His MPs need funds to support their canvassers, village headmen, local politicians.

Education cannot compete with the patronage system and money in Thai politics.The elite, as with Thaksin at no 15, are all over Thailand.

In reply to the topic in hand,the middle class are wrong to look down on upcountry folk as backward, as the middle class have no idea of hard physical work or the difficulties in raising funds for rural people, but they're right to castigate villagers for addiction to gambling and alcohol.The middle class also feel they work 5 days a week, both husbands and wives,whilst many villagers do nothing but depend on handouts from their children for several months a year. A point that cannot be denied.

Still, more and more villagers are getting richer with rubber plantations,and hopefully other crop prices will continue to rise on the world markets.

With the frequent migration back and forth to the cities and abroad of the children of rural Thailand,opportunities and investment are improving a lot in upcountry Thailand.