Immigration Arrests 31 Foreigners For Gem Trade

[logpoacher]

Sabahat Ellahi, the president of the Thai-Pakistan Chamber of Commerce, said the government should have a clear and simple regulation on this trade practice and give the business community advance notice of any adjustments before putting them into effect.

You would have thought that the President of the Thai-Pakistan Chamber of Commerce would have lived here long enough to learn that the very thing that the government strives to avoid at all costs are clear and simple regulations. All regulations are deliberately ambiguous and / or contradictory to allow state officials to extort bribes from the public by ensuring that the official can find a plausible reason for denying to provide the required service due to some inadequacy or omission in the application which the official will generously ignore in return for some "tea money". There is no point in going away, correcting the application and then returning because another inadequacy will be found.

N.B. I am not a whinging farang - the vast majority of the extorted are Thai citizens for whom the bribe is a considerable additional expense just for trying to live their lives; whereas for me, although I suspect the officials must be buying their tea at the Oriental Hotel, it's usually no more than the cost of a couple of nights out. And if it does become an unbearable burden, I can always leave the country and live elsewhere - not an option for most of the Thai victims.

An example of this is the definition of "work" in the relevant government act. I can't find a translation at the moment, so if someone else has it, please post it. As far as I can remember from when I read it, "work" is defined as anything involving physical or mental effort, whether remunerated or not. Ever since finding this, I have used it as an excuse to my girlfriend for not helping with the washing-up, in case I am deported.

[ovenman]

An example of this is the definition of "work" in the relevant government act.  I can't find a translation at the moment, so if someone else has it, please post it.

Ask and ye shall receive:

NOTE:

All aliens engaged in any kind of work in Thailand must hold a valid work permit, issued principally by the Department of Employment of the Ministry of Labor and Social Welfare pursuant to the Alien Employment Act B.E. 2521 (A.D. 1978).

The term "work" is defined very broadly, covering both physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other remuneration. Working without a valid work permit even for a day is a criminal offense.

Taken from the ThaiVisa Work Permit FAQ.

Edited October 6, 2005 by ovenman

[silk123]

Good idea to get rid of them gem shops.

The tourists hate getting tricked by tuk tuks and tailors and them gem shops.

Owned by politicans so allowed to screw all the tourists year in year out.

Always get a bad feeling thinking about all the tourists i know who got conned by them gem shops. The gemshop owners make fortunes for themselves stealing like that.

[udon]

Good idea to get rid of them gem shops.

The tourists hate getting tricked by tuk tuks and tailors and them gem shops. 

Owned by politicans so allowed to screw all the tourists year in year out.

Always get a bad feeling thinking about all the tourists i know who got conned by them gem shops.  The gemshop owners make fortunes for themselves stealing like that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hi Silk,

you have obviously given a lot of thought to your subject.

Perhaps you could provide us with a list of naughty gem shops.

Is it more than 7?

Besides, the topic is about Thai gem dealers selling to overseas gem dealers who buy without a work permit or a business visa .....

Edited October 6, 2005 by udon

[Sphere]

Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that some accountants of Effective Planners were arrested at the TPI offices? They were sent for due-diligence at the TPI offices while their WP's stated the address of their own office. 

Now that you mention it, that vaguely rings a bell. No doubt the powers-that-be at TPI didn't want anybody looking at the books too closely. Quick call to immigrations, problem solved!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Same modus operandi in this case as well - me thinks.

[CTM]

"The market in the eastern province provides an alternative to small traders who do not want to deal with major traders in Chanthaburi or Bangkok."

Follow the money. Maybe someone in power wants to force foreigners to buy from the "major traders".

It seems like the last few years have seen a major effort by Taksin and friends to wipe out small businesses, farmers, local "dark figures", money lenders, etc and concentrate all power and wealth in the hands of a few.

[ChickenTonight]

I think this is nonsense!

If you arrive on a 30 day stamp, and under purpose of visit tick business. They are going to ask you what is your business, and you say you are a buyer and selling outside of Thailand - this IS legal.

If you keep doing this (visa run) you are going to have to show some postage/shipping receipts for things you have sent internationally - otherwise you might have some problems.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong (pm me).

Thanks

The 30 day permit is a guaranteed lockup and deportation if sprung

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[ChickenTonight]

so why does the entry card thing say "purpose of visit" and a place to tick "business" - or do you get this even with the proper visa.

i was advised by an immigration police guy in chiang rai that its totally legal to act as a foriegn buyer here as long as you are selling overseas.

Other kind of work is totally illegal even if you are working "mentally" - bring on the thought police (Orwell 1984!)

My interpretation of the rules:

The Immigration rules are quite clear here: You need a Non-Immigrant "B" visa in order to conduct business in Thailand. Tourists "TR" or 30-days stamp on arrival "TR30" are not supposed to conduct business here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[ChickenTonight]

Most gem dealing in Thailand is not a scam.

Having said that a lot of Gems enter and leave the countires without import/export taxes being paid

FROM THE ARCHIVES

Just Embarrassing... (efforts to stop the scam)

There are more current articles than these below, but why bother posting them? It's always the same: foreign embassies and international travel associations demand a stop to the gem scam, but nothing changes.

Bangkok urged to stop jewellery scam

    Foreign embassies in Thailand are asking the Thai govt to clamp down on its gem scam operators after tourists complain of being cheated

    BANGKOK -- Frustrated foreign embassies are urging the Thai government to clamp down on Bangkok's notorious jewellery scam operators after being swamped by complaints from unsuspecting tourists.

    The Australian, British, Swiss and Japanese embassies are now teaming up to request high-level talks with the Thai Foreign Ministry in a bid to crack down on the gem dealers.

    Victims are typically approached by ""tuk tuk'' (motor rickshaw) drivers and illegal ""guides'' who waylay tourists outside the city's landmarks, inform them that the attraction is closed that day and offer to help them find cheap jewellery. ""The problem is certainly on the rise,'' British consul Brian Kelly said. "The fact that much of this shady dealing is blatantly going on in the Grand Palace area in full view of the police and Tourism Authority of Thailand officials makes it bizarre.''

    Earlier this month, Thai police and the tourism authorities vowed to work together to close down the fraudsters who sell jewellery to tourists at prices far above their real value.

    But Bangkok tourist police said it was hard to close down the shady dealers because tourists entered the deals voluntarily and there was no global standard for setting the value of jewels.

    About 200 people are arrested in relation to jewellery fraud each month, according to police figures.

    They are charged with causing a nuisance and fined a maximum of 1,000 baht (S$41.60).

    Thailand's Tourism Authority governor Mr Pradech Phayakvichien had also said that the authorities were trying to reduce the number of gangs who are defrauding the tourists.

You gotta ask yourself by a zirconia or a fake Ruby an go in the can for it for doing business i just love it or sell one to someone and get a 1000BHT fine Ill take the 1000 thanks!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[zzap]

I think this is nonsense!

If you arrive on a 30 day stamp, and under purpose of visit tick business. They are going to ask you what is your business, and you say you are a buyer and selling outside of Thailand - this IS legal.

If you keep doing this (visa run) you are going to have to show some postage/shipping receipts for things you have sent internationally - otherwise you might have some problems.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong (pm me).

Thanks

What you get is a 30 days Tourist visa, which means you may of course buy souvenirs and personal items, but not commercial merchandise to trade in or outside of Thailand. While commercial small-scale buying remains a grey area, buying and selling within Thailand is definetely unacceptable and does attract attention of the law!

Another misconception in this thread is the difference between a work permit and a business visa. A business visa entitles you to conduct certain commercial activities on behalf of a foreign based company in Thailand, a work permit allows you to work for a Thai-based company in a specified position and location for a monthly salary.

A little bit of contemplation on the subject would have made the majority of cynical comments here superfluous.

[dannishgung]

Thai government must be the most stupid government in the whole world. (Thai general public is real dumb as well). I can not think of anyone else that trys to ruin itself economically like this in the whole wide world. A country where they need tourist money (also huge on sex tourism) for survival. They are ruining it very quickly by hasseling so many foriegners in all the entertainment venues for passports and for drug piss tests, holding them hours after hours before releasing them inside the clubs. Lots of my regular Thailand visitor friends have stopped coming here now. Because they think its not worth the hassel to get visa, or do the visa run for longer stay, carry passports all the nights to enter entertainment venues, and get stopped constantly for driving rental cars and being demanded for bribes, also the violent crime rates has escalated a lot in past years, also the tousism prices has risen unreasonably in past 10 years ect ect.

Some of my best friends are switching long stay to Spain, Mexico, Brasil, Malaysia ect where long stay is no hassel, visa free for long period, government welcome them, violent crime rated against foriegners are low, and very free going as forigners, the law to carry passport for forigners to enter disco clubs are absolute rediculous to them. Also being held captive in the clubs, ordered to piss into a small container in front all the people in the disco hall, spilling the piss all over, the scene is also so unthinkable to them. But this happens every night here in Thailand.

Thai needs sex tourists for survival. It still has no other economic alternatives to replace sex tourism. If one day Thai economy has something strong going to replace sex tourism, then its ok to close all the massages up. But as for now, the Thai nation's revenue big percent is from this areas. So many people depend on it to eat and survive. Thailand should make clear setting law to legalized night venues. Efficiently manage all the night venues then police bribes will be reduced.

Closing night venues at 1 or 2 AM and try to shut down massages, close discos,

do not make society better, efficiently legalize them and efficeiently run them is the best for society and for tourism.

Now Thailand is trying to scare away small businessmen who come here to buy goods. I really wonder how all the small traders who come here to buy goods get non-immigration visas? The gem traders get hasseled this time then they will simply stop coming and go to Sirilanka or India or else where to buy. Because the small business people will go where they have economic freedom and they do not have to come to Thailand at all. Thailand try to encourage business investment but without the simplest business freedom who will want to come??

Even the small traders have stopped coming to buy from here. Because the price of goods are not competitive anymore and the worst the government here has no intention to encourage business, instead only try to do the unthinkable. If this no brain behaviour of this Thai policy continues, I think Malaysia, China, Vietnam ect will be very happy to take in all the small traders. Thai is the only country in the whole world where they still living in the past and moving towards the past.

Edited October 6, 2005 by dannishgung

[makavelithedon]

Whilst of course all are entitled to express their views on the forum, is there really any point in some doing the traffic warden bit and digging up the chapter and verse of the legalities. E.g 'oh they shouldn't be on a 30 day tourist visa tut tut tut' Especially on such a petty generalised example as this?

I thought it would of been enough for the Thai officials to lead the way? Especially, after reading the news clipping-The Gem Association with many ditinguished Thai patrons etc (and who have written to the P.M) even acknowledges the petty nature of the action and offence even if technically they are meant to have a business visa etc etc!

Geeeeeeeeez come on.

Edited October 6, 2005 by makavelithedon

[ovenman]

Whilst of course all are entitled to express their views on the forum, is there really any point in some doing the traffic warden bit and digging up the chapter and verse of the legalities. E.g 'oh they shouldn't be on a 30 day tourist visa tut tut tut'  Especially on such a petty generalised example as this?

I thought it would of been enough for the Thai officials to lead the way?

I have no idea what you are getting on about. An underlying point to this entire thread is that many people (often including some of the Thai authorities) are unclear on the actual rules that apply to this type of situation. I am referring to the actual written rules, not what one can "get by with", or what one may have heard from some immigrations officer while passing thru a border post in Nakhon Nowhere. Such government individuals are not always correct and are certainly never going to be responsible for any mistaken advice they might dispense.

This discussion has gone for days and it is still unclear what the paperwork requirements are for an individual in the situation described to be in full-compliance with the Thai law.

[Indo-Siam]

Having been "invited" to make comment in/on this thread:

1. I remember reading the original posting of this thread - and I simply moved on because I do not consider the underlying incident to be meaningful, except for the poor sods involved. I believe the incident happened - and I also believe that a poster on the first page got it correct early on: there was some other agenda involved.

2. My GUESS is that those picked up were not just buying gems. They were in fact running unregulated trading businesses - buying (low) and selling (high) - as brokers. With no overhead, paying no taxes, etc. This probably irritated some real gem trader with a legitimate business - who did not like competing against "fly-by-nights," so he called his brother who was a senior police official, and they shook the situation up a bit - fired a shot across the bow of the pirates, if you were.

3. It is generally very, very hard for a legitimate businesman who arrives here for 30 days to get in trouble vis-a-vis a work permit. On the other hand, someone who is on their 44th strung-together entry on arrival - and is a defacto resident - running what amounts to a regular business - illegally - probably stands a good chance of eventually pissing someone off enough to get in trouble. Such unregulated businesses are evading taxes - right there is enough to get you busted in every country on earth.

4. So - the filter I would use is the following: if someone is here in 30 day, entry on arrival status - and is doing work that competes with and is basically identical to work performed here mostly by individuals who are legitimately employed and paying Thai taxes for that same work - then there is potential for that visitor to get in trouble. So - a tradeshow visitor who is here amoung 10,000 other trade show visitors - and none are legally employed in Thailand - he is not subject to getting in trouble.

5. On the other hand, if 30 entry on arrival visitors are walking around a complex full of registered gem trading businesses, and they are buying and selling as if it is a commodities exchange - and they are stealing business from all the permanent traders who have invested in formal business and (paying rent for their shops) - well, what do you THINK is going to happen? They are going to get run off. Whats the big surprise there?

6. The Labor Ministry does not effectively have much of an enforcement arm - at least not one directed against foreign businesmen (as opposed to hunting down sweatshops full of illegal immigrants). You really have to be sticking out badly to get picked up for working illegally.

In general, this thread - like the one about the guy who got hassled for regularly playing the saxaphone in a jam session - are not very much representative of the larger scene. But - any time someone sticks out or pisses someone else off, it is pretty easy to pull out some rule to enforce against you. Jaywalking. Spitting on the sidewalk. Failing to make 90 day reports to Immigration. Working somewhere other than the address specified in your work permit. Failing to immediately notify Immigration if you change your residence address. Most likely, something could be found to nail virtually 100% of all of us - if someone really wants to go out of their way to nail you.

Most legitimate visitors, most of the time, have nothing to fear - even making factory sales calls, attending trade shows, visiting vendors, and similar. I find it quite easy to look at a situation and say either "this is a visiting businessman, conducting normal 'traveling through' type business" or "this is a 'dodgy guy' trying to effectively work in Thailand without proper authorization." I suspect that the Thai authorities can see things just as clearly.

Moving on ........

Steve

Indo-Siam

[sabaijai]

Having been "invited" to make comment in/on this thread:

1.  I remember reading the origoinal posting of this thread - and I simply moved on because I do not consider th underlying incident to be meaningful, except for the poor sods involved.  I believe the incident happened - and I also believe that a poster on the first page got it correct early on:  there was some other agenda involved.

2.  My GUESS is that those picked up were not just buying gems.  They were in fact running unregulated trading businesses - buying (low) and selling (high) - as brokers.  With no overhead, paying no taxes, etc.  This probably irritated some real gem trader with a legitimate business - who did not like competing against "fly-by-nights," so he called his brother who was a senior police official, and they shook the situation up a bit - fired a shot across the bow of the pirates, if you were. 

3.  It is generally very, very hard for a legitimate businesman who arrives here for 30 days to get in trouble vis-a-vis a work permit.  On the other hand, someone who is on their 44th strung-together entry on arrival - and is a defacto resident - running what amounts to a regular business - illegally - probably stands a good chance of eventually pissing someone off enough to get in trouble.  Such unregulated businesses are evading taxes - right there is enough to get you busted in every country on earth.

4.  So - the filter I would use is the following:  if someone is here in 30 day, entry on arrival status - and is doing work that competes with and is basically identical to work performed here mostly by individuals who are legitimately employed and paying Thai taxes for that same work - then there is potential for that visitor to get in trouble.  So - a tradeshow visitor who is here amoung 10,000 other trade show visitors - and none are legally employed in Thailand - he is not subject to getting in trouble. 

5.  On the other hand, if 30 entry on arrival visitors are walking around a complex full of registered gem trading businesses, and they are buying and selling as if it is a commodities exchange - and they are stealing business from all the permanent traders who have invested in formal business and (paying rent for their shops) - well, what do you THINK is going to happen?  They are going to get run off.  Whats the big surprise there?

6.  The Labor Ministry does not effectively have much of an enforcement arm - at least not one directed against foreign businesmen (as opposed to hunting down sweatshops full of illegal immigrants).  You really have to be sticking out badly to get picked up for working illegally.

In general, this thread - like the one about the guy who got hassled for regularly playing the saxaphone in a jam session - are not very much representative of the larger scene.  But - any time someone sticks out or pisses someone else off, it is pretty easy to pull out some rule to enforce against you.  Jaywalking.  Spitting on the sidewalk.  Failing to make 90 day reports to Immigration.  Working somewhere other than the address specified in your work permit.  Failing to immediately notify Immigration if you change your residence address.  Most likely, something could be found to nail virtually 100% of all of us - if someone really wants to go out of their way to nail you.

Most legitimate visitors, most of the time, have nothing to fear - even making factory sales calls, attending trade shows, visiting vendors, and similar.  I find it quite easy to look at a situation and say either "this is a visiting businessman, conducting normal 'traveling through' type business" or "this is a 'dodgy guy' trying to effectively work in Thailand without proper authorization."  I suspect that the Thai authorities can see things just as clearly.

Moving on ........

Steve

Indo-Siam

Well done.

[ChiangMaiThai]

The 30 day permit is a guaranteed lockup and deportation if sprung

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pat Pong, I would think that you would quiet down about the 30 day poverty packers since your previous predictions and advice turned out to be completely false. Do I need to remind you of the dozens of posts you made back about 2 years ago when you insisted that anyone staying long term on 30 day stamps would soon be deported and possibly blacklisted? I rushed out of the country to get a new 1 year Visa and clean passport. A year later, the visa expired and I returned to monthly trips to the border. I must have 15 consecutive stamps. I went to immigration yesterday to get a 10 day extension. They looked at all my stamps and said I should just go to the border and 'when come back, have one more month', because this would be cheaper than paying for the extension.

The border guards never once bat an eye lash and of course they recognize me every month. Other guys at the local gym have over 60 consecutive 30 day stamps and NEVER have any problems. The only rule change is that sometimes tey ask to see 10,000 baht. That's it.

NOTHING HAS HAPPENED SINCE YOUR URGENT WARNINGS. The sky is not falling.....

[booma]

does this mean if i get inspiration from thailand for use in designs back home i am breaking the law, say i'm sitting at a bar in bkk putting these inspirations into a laptop do i risk arrest?

[sajal]

does this mean if i get inspiration from thailand for use in designs back home i am breaking the law, say i'm sitting at a bar in bkk putting these inspirations into a laptop do i risk arrest?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

as per the law even thinking about putting these inspiration into a laptop would be illegal and if someone was onto you and proove what u were thinking you would have broken the law as you probably dont have a work permit which entitles you to work at that bar.

[makavelithedon]

Sorry Ovenman,

What I was trying to say was, what is the point in this type of post:

'The 30 day permit is a guaranteed lockup and deportation if sprung' especially from PP. There are numerous examples in threads of points along the same lines which add nothing.

Whether you agree or not I hope now at least you know what I'm referring to. Looks like ChiangMaiThai beat me to it.

Mak

[Sphere]

does this mean if i get inspiration from thailand for use in designs back home i am breaking the law, say i'm sitting at a bar in bkk putting these inspirations into a laptop do i risk arrest?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes if it is a laptop computer - no if it is the other kind of laptop found at most Bkk bars...

[ovenman]

What I was trying to say was, what is the point in this type of post:

Gotcha, that distinction makes your point clear now.

[astral]

As I understand it, using this line of logic, any foreign buyer that comes to Thailand for a trade show or to work with manufacturers without a work permit or a "B" visa, is breaking the law and subject to arrest...

Stoneman

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It probably means you need a B visa and work permit to go shopping.

There goes the tourist trade!!

[Maestro]

It's more likely that some ahem, competitive business interest, filed a complaint against these gem traders and immigrations was compelled to follow it up.

The confirmation of your assumption lies, I believe, in the following paragraph of the original post:

Mr Chirakitti said Chanthaburi had been known the world over for half a century as a gem-trading centre where direct business could be conducted between small gem cutters and foreign traders. The market in the eastern province provides an alternative to small traders who do not want to deal with major traders in Chanthaburi or Bangkok.

The last 6 words in the last line above say who that competitive business interest is.

[Maestro]

The topic starter said "The Immigration Police Bureau arrested 31 foreigners from India, Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia and the US at a gem-trading market in Chanthaburi last Friday on grounds of buying and selling in Thailand without work permits". In Thailand......they were conducting business within Thailand.

Yes, and the article also said:

The source claimed the police had prodded them into confessing that they had conducted both buying and selling activities in Thailand. In fact, he said, the foreign traders purchased cut gemstones from Chanthaburi in order to sell them in their countries and thus did not conduct any illegal activity as charged.

Whether that type of “prodding” really happened or not, I cannot say but I can tell you a story that happened in New York, USA. A European pilot on a lay-over in New York, while jogging in Central Park, went to urinate in a public toilet, where he got arrested and charged with drug dealing. When the prosecutor was unable to submit proof for that charge, which was false, he offered the deal that if the pilot pleaded guilty to the lesser charge of indecent exposure he would be freed immediately upon payment of a $45 fine, otherwise he would be held for at least another month until all court proceedings would be finished. Faced with these options, the airline management “prodded” the pilot to admit the indecent exposure.

…not only in Thailand…