Bin Laden says America 'will not dream of security' until Palestine has security

[Ulysses G.]

chuckd: The US developed enemies in the Middle East when we supported Israel's right to exist.

correct, there is no doubt about that. correct is also that the animosity got much stronger after 1967 with (until this very day) the continous stealing of land from the Palestinians with the ridiculous excuse that the Almighty himself has condoned the theft a few milleniae ago.

Actually the excuse is that Arab armies kept attacking Israel and losing land. After Israel expanded their borders the Arabs had a harder time of it and calmed down and turned to whining about it instead. Do not blame God for that.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Huey]

America will not dream of living in security before we experience security in Palestine and not before all infidel armies have left the land of Muhammad,

Somewhat different from the "They hate us for our freedoms" rhetoric we so often hear as the reason for terrorism

"They hate us for our freedoms" = ridiculous! the Israel/Palestine problem is the root of most islamist terrorist activities.

Rubbish. If it wasn't Israel, it would be something else. Bin laden never cared about his fellow arabs. If he did, he wouldn't have ordered his minions set off bombs in Iraqi mosques and markets. Last time I looked, Iraq had become judenfrei when the Iraqi jews were either slaughtered or murdered in the 1940's and 50's so I don't think you can blame Iraq on Israel either.

Weren't allot of Europeans slaughtering their Jews in extermination camps around then too?

I keep saying it. I have been living and working in Muslim countries for 10 years and without fail they all say any problem that Muslims have with Americans is over israel. It's not like we had a ton of drama with them before.

They just arn't worth the drama they bring. I would drop all support for israel and put that cash into supporting a nation thats gonna give us a positive return on our investment.

[Jingthing]

They just arn't worth the drama they bring.

Antisemites aren't worth the drama they bring.

Seriously, dude, do you realize you come off as a racist?

Edited May 9, 2011 by Jingthing

[flying]

terrorism is -as reality shows- not a matter of definition but a matter of perspective.

True that

[Ulysses G.]

"terrorism is -as reality shows- not a matter of definition but a matter of perspective".

At least for posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists.

[kuffki]

Weren't allot of Europeans slaughtering their Jews in extermination camps around then too?

I keep saying it. I have been living and working in Muslim countries for 10 years and without fail they all say any problem that Muslims have with Americans is over israel. It's not like we had a ton of drama with them before.

They just arn't worth the drama they bring. I would drop all support for israel and put that cash into supporting a nation thats gonna give us a positive return on our investment.

You mean put all cash into supporting Taliban to help US fight the evil Russians, well that turned out really well.

Anymore great ideas? Perhaps you did live in the arab country for too long

[kuffki]

"terrorism is -as reality shows- not a matter of definition but a matter of perspective".

At least for posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists.

But here is a scary part, most if not all of those posters either Western Born or chose to live in the West, yet do nothing but bash the West and praise the terrorism.

Since West is so bad, why do not you move to either Iran or Palestine which you so whole heartedly support?! or why did you move from Iran or alike? Would it be in search of a better life?!

[Ulysses G.]

Since West is so bad, why do not you move to either Iran or Palestine which you so whole heartedly support?

Gaza might be a good choice. They have a Waterpark, and a huge shopping mall.

[Steely Dan]

"terrorism is -as reality shows- not a matter of definition but a matter of perspective".

At least for posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists.

But here is a scary part, most if not all of those posters either Western Born or chose to live in the West, yet do nothing but bash the West and praise the terrorism.

Since West is so bad, why do not you move to either Iran or Palestine which you so whole heartedly support?! or why did you move from Iran or alike? Would it be in search of a better life?!

The best that could be said of these enablers for terrorists is that they are useful idiots, but sadly many are indeed antisemites through and though who attempt to justify and sanitize their bloodlust by hiding it behind a well prepared set menu of evasions and attempts to argue moral equivalence.

[coma]

Best we get Palestine sorted out rather quickly then. The scores of terror attacks the West has recieved is all in the name of occupied arab land. Whether it is Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc etc.

Lets get out and leave them and Israel [the core problematic country] to it and hopefully they will leave us all alone. It really isn't too much to ask actually.

[Credo]

I am not a big supporter of Israel, but leaving Israel to fend for itself is going to create a lot of problems and won't improve relations with the West.

First, if Israel does defend itself and wins a battle or two, then the US and its allies will be blamed for covertly supporting them. The distrust in that part of the world runs very, very deep.

Second, if the Israeli's lose, then there is going to be an unprecedented humanitarian crisis with potentially millions of refugees.

Finally, the absence of Israel as an enemy will only result in a new enemy and somehow I think that will come around and bite the west in the behind.

[Ulysses G.]

Second, if the Israeli's lose, then there is going to be an unprecedented humanitarian crisis with potentially millions of refugees.

If Israel loses, their enemies will take care of that problem.

"If the Arabs lay down their arms there will be no war. If Israel lays down its arms there will be no Israel".

[Pakboong]

My problem with this issue boils down to my holding Israel to a higher standard than I do the Palestinians. It is based upon many things to include a 20+ avererage IQ advantage, acceptance of "My Preference" to Western style democracy and many other obvious reasons that are all connected to a higher level of intellect. The difficulty I have with the terrorism issue is that the history of Israel is about terrorism. The British Mandate was forced to deal with Jewish terror on a regular basis. I truly do not approve of terrorism as a means of fighting but there are historical situations where it could have been an appropriate method. Terrorizing the British during the Mandate is one example I have a hard time justifying. As I understand it, the reason for the terror on the British was due to limiting the immigration of Jews into Palestine and not making the same effort to control Arab immigration into Palestine.

Ships carrying Jews were assumed to be carrying weapons as well and the British apparently could not handle the Border control as it was massive. It became a terror issue much more so than an immigration issue. It clearly became a British position that the Jews needed greater control placed on them than the Arabs. Jewish ships were diverted to displaced persons camps in Cyprus and even sent back to Europe. It was a difficult time to say the least.

The Hamas issue is also difficult. They are not that sophisticated and have problems with internal conflict. Apparently, they have realized their problems and are attempting to solve them. There will remain an open sore and a united Fatah and Hamas will not be able to control individual acts of terror. There remain many Palestinians with 65 IQs who will do anything to get revenge.

Much of this is from memory and over-simplified so if I have mentioned something which is historically not correct feel free to correct me.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Pakboong

[philw]

"terrorism is -as reality shows- not a matter of definition but a matter of perspective".

At least for posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists.

Can you give an example of " posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists "

Cite a few examples perhaps ?

[kuffki]

"terrorism is -as reality shows- not a matter of definition but a matter of perspective".

At least for posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists.

Can you give an example of " posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists "

Cite a few examples perhaps ?

Look up bangkokeddy, that will be a good start

[philw]

"terrorism is -as reality shows- not a matter of definition but a matter of perspective".

At least for posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists.

But here is a scary part, most if not all of those posters either Western Born or chose to live in the West, yet do nothing but bash the West and praise the terrorism.

Since West is so bad, why do not you move to either Iran or Palestine which you so whole heartedly support?! or why did you move from Iran or alike? Would it be in search of a better life?!

Please give an example of a post that " praises" terrorism.

Edited May 10, 2011 by philw

[kuffki]

"terrorism is -as reality shows- not a matter of definition but a matter of perspective".

At least for posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists.

But here is a scary part, most if not all of those posters either Western Born or chose to live in the West, yet do nothing but bash the West and praise the terrorism.

Since West is so bad, why do not you move to either Iran or Palestine which you so whole heartedly support?! or why did you move from Iran or alike? Would it be in search of a better life?!

Please give an example of a post that " praises" terrorism.

again look up the posts by member stated in previous post, or perhaps you can point out posts made by people in question who condemned it and did not look for an escape goat

Edited May 10, 2011 by kuffki

[Steely Dan]

Best we get Palestine sorted out rather quickly then. The scores of terror attacks the West has recieved is all in the name of occupied arab land. Whether it is Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Iraq etc etc.

Lets get out and leave them and Israel [the core problematic country] to it and hopefully they will leave us all alone. It really isn't too much to ask actually.

If you replace Arab with Muslim then the whole world is occupied land in the eyes of Islamic supremacists - Just ask those in Kashmir, Southern Thailand, East Timor or Sudan. In this we are all Spartacus Israel and it is moral cowardice to delude oneself into thinking the demands would stop if Israel ceased to exist.

[flying]

"terrorism is -as reality shows- not a matter of definition but a matter of perspective".

At least for posters who consistantly make up justifications and excuses for Bin Ladin, Hamas and other terrorists.

But here is a scary part, most if not all of those posters either Western Born or chose to live in the West, yet do nothing but bash the West and praise the terrorism.

Since West is so bad, why do not you move to either Iran or Palestine which you so whole heartedly support?! or why did you move from Iran or alike? Would it be in search of a better life?!

Dont look now but your cheerleader pom poms are on fire......

funny for you two posters to be talking about making justifications or being apologist....considering your posting history & the many threads you ultimately get closed defending *your* team.

As for your question of why westerners ( Americans in my case ) complain about our governments foreign policies & dont instead move....

Well because it is our right to state our feeling if our government is acting outside of its Constitution given powers.

Just because we do not support our governments intervention in matters that are none of our business along with the senseless collateral damages/murders does not mean we consider the west bad.

Our complaining of the waste of tax dollars propping up puppet regimes or regimes that also use weaponry we supply to act immorally also does not constitute any hate for the west. Our government is to do our bidding not another countries via lobbyist/campaign contributions.

Edited May 10, 2011 by flying

[Wallaby]

Isn't there enough threads on Israel/Palestine already?

[kuffki]

Isn't there enough threads on Israel/Palestine already?

exactly, but once again it shows the same people doing the same thing over and over again.

[chuckd]

Weren't allot of Europeans slaughtering their Jews in extermination camps around then too?

I keep saying it. I have been living and working in Muslim countries for 10 years and without fail they all say any problem that Muslims have with Americans is over israel. It's not like we had a ton of drama with them before.

They just arn't worth the drama they bring. I would drop all support for israel and put that cash into supporting a nation thats gonna give us a positive return on our investment.

I put over 30 years in the Middle East beginning in 1974. Believe me, there was plenty of drama long before you showed up.

How about the Iranian/US Embassy situation in 1979? What did that have to do with Israel?

Did you ever stop to think the main reason terrorist attacks seem to be caused by the Israeli situation is because the terrorists are Palestinians or Hezbollah?

[Ulysses G.]

It clearly became a British position that the Jews needed greater control placed on them than the Arabs.

A lot of your post is accurate, but this is not. There was plenty of Arab terrorism directed against the Jews, which is how the whole thing started. The British made a lot of promises to both sides and screwed both sides over. They were hardly innocents in this whole matter.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Ulysses G.]

funny for you two posters to be talking about making justifications or being apologist....considering your posting history...

Pot, Kettle, Black.

[Pakboong]

It clearly became a British position that the Jews needed greater control placed on them than the Arabs.

A lot of your post is accurate, but this is not. There was plenty of Arab terrorism directed against the Jews, which is how the whole thing started. The British made a lot of promises to both sides and screwed both sides over. They were hardly innocents in this whole matter.

I do understand that to be true but the biggest bone of contention with regard to the Jews seemed to be that the Arabs were entering Palestine illegally and the British were using all their resources to control the Jews and ignoring the Arabs.

[Ulysses G.]

True, but there was more to it than that.

However, that is a big reason why Israel objects to the so-called "right of return'. There were very few Arabs in the area until Britain let them all immigrate from other parts of the Middle East while preventing Jews from doing the same.

[flying]

funny for you two posters to be talking about making justifications or being apologist....considering your posting history...

Pot, Kettle, Black.

Hardly.............

That one cries foul on their own governments immoral actions does not equate to cheer leading for either side.

[geriatrickid]

There can be no discussion about return of anyone until the Arab countries are willing to accept that hundreds of thousands of arab jews were expelled or forced out of the arab countires. None of the arab countries wants to deal with the headache of accepting responsibility or providing compensation for the assets that were seized. The discussions on the return of anyone is just that. The arab countries will not support the Palestinian negotiators when they are behind closed doors. This is why the Palestinian negotiators had been so agreeable when the issue was discussed with the Israeli negotiators. That is, until those negotiations were broadcast to the public courtesy of wikileaks.

One can go back and forth on the issue in respect to the British presence in Israel/Jordan. The fact of the matter is that the British assumed the occupancy sunbsequent to the defeat of the Turkish colonial power. The British had agreed to leave, but dragged their heels much as they had done and would continue to do in their arab and african colonies. Despite all the alleged animosity, the Israelis had served the British loyally in WWI and WWII unlike the arabs. It is easy to look back on the events and come up with all sorts of fancy theories and explanations. However, I will defer to human nature which tells me that there was no way, the British could favour the arabs who had collaborated and assisted the Axis forces. It was the grand Mufti of Jerusalem that sent his people to fight for Hitler and to kill Commonwealth and American servicemen. Does one really think that the British military was going to have any sympathy for people that had been allied with Hitler? One of the reasons why the Israelis were able to hang on in the war of 1948 is because enough veterans of WWII provided aid and war materiel. Those arms didn't just appear magically on merchant vessels in the ports of the USA and England.

[koheesti]

Don't kid yourself. Islamic terrorism is linked to intolerance of both Christians and Jews.

You can include intolerance of Hindus as well.

[Pakboong]

There can be no discussion about return of anyone until the Arab countries are willing to accept that hundreds of thousands of arab jews were expelled or forced out of the arab countires. None of the arab countries wants to deal with the headache of accepting responsibility or providing compensation for the assets that were seized. The discussions on the return of anyone is just that. The arab countries will not support the Palestinian negotiators when they are behind closed doors. This is why the Palestinian negotiators had been so agreeable when the issue was discussed with the Israeli negotiators. That is, until those negotiations were broadcast to the public courtesy of wikileaks.

One can go back and forth on the issue in respect to the British presence in Israel/Jordan. The fact of the matter is that the British assumed the occupancy sunbsequent to the defeat of the Turkish colonial power. The British had agreed to leave, but dragged their heels much as they had done and would continue to do in their arab and african colonies. Despite all the alleged animosity, the Israelis had served the British loyally in WWI and WWII unlike the arabs. It is easy to look back on the events and come up with all sorts of fancy theories and explanations. However, I will defer to human nature which tells me that there was no way, the British could favour the arabs who had collaborated and assisted the Axis forces. It was the grand Mufti of Jerusalem that sent his people to fight for Hitler and to kill Commonwealth and American servicemen. Does one really think that the British military was going to have any sympathy for people that had been allied with Hitler? One of the reasons why the Israelis were able to hang on in the war of 1948 is because enough veterans of WWII provided aid and war materiel. Those arms didn't just appear magically on merchant vessels in the ports of the USA and England.

GK, what you say here makes sense but it didn't necessarily pan out that way on the ground between 1945 and 1948. Which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The British should have favored the Jews over the Arabs based upon the war if for no other reason. You had the Polish Army made up of many Jews in exile in both England and Palestine. I am assuming shared intelligence made its way via the likes of Menachem Begin who was a Polish army Officer in exile in Palestine but the events on the ground didn't did not seem to support the logic. You had entire Polish units fighting along side the British in both Europe and the middle east. What went wrong for the Jews in 1945??

I am pretty confident that the terror campaign against the British was not perpetrated because of the perception that the Balfour agreement was not honored by the British.