Thaksin: I'll Return At End Of Year

[animatic]

'ianbaggie' timestamp='1305262957' post='4420766'

My own wife was ordered out of bed whilst in hospital during the red shirts attack on the hospital.

Genuinely sorry to hear this.But precisely who ordered her out of bed, the redshirts or the hospital administration?

Hope your wife is fine now. You should also ask the government/ army why they positioned snipers in the top floors of the hospital.

No snipers was ever found on the top floors in the hospital.

But I don't hold my breath waiting for any of your fellow apologist to correct your trollish posts.

Well, someone blew Sae Daeng's head off, captured live on TV while he was being interviewed by CNN, exactly in that area. Let me try apologizing for that somehow. Then someone else can try apologizing for the slaughter of unarmed people inside a temple.

Yes someone certainly did shoot him, Hyperbole serves you no good.

Not apologizing for, nor condoning his assassination, no idea where you got that idea.

Tom Fuller of the International Herald Tribune told CNN he was interviewing Seh at the time of the shooting....

...Video footage taken just after the shooting showed Seh lying on the ground, dressed in camouflage, as frantic protesters attempted to move him and get help. ...

CNN did access that footage later after the shooting,

but were not interviewing him at the time.

Tom Fuller also says on video that it came from

outside the encampment from behind and over Fullers head

were there were tall buildings far off and and hit Seh in the forehead.

The angle was high to low from medical reports, indicated a great height.

There were multiple reports that the angle was not possibly from the direction of the hospital, if he was standing as described by Tom Fuller. There were dozens of tall buildings with site lines, my guess it was a fairly far off one. A close shot from the hospital roof would have as you put it... 'blew Sae Daeng's head off', or appart. That didn't happen.

I regret the loss of life of course,

but there is no need for exaggeration to make a point either.

[letitbe]

I regret the loss of life of course,

but there is no need for exaggeration to make a point either.

You probably regret the loss of life of Hitler, Saddam and such scum He was a total war mongering psychopath with no concern for anyone else who dies due to his words or actions I and I think many are happy that at least one murdering thug got what he deserved. I do regret loss of life of sheep or is it buffalo who where killed totally due to red shirts and Mr T's provocation

[Siripon]

[You probably regret the loss of life of Hitler, Saddam and such scum He was a total war mongering psychopath with no concern for anyone else who dies due to his words or actions I and I think many are happy that at least one murdering thug got what he deserved. I do regret loss of life of sheep or is it buffalo who where killed totally due to red shirts and Mr T's provocation

I wonder what number on the Pheua Thai party list his daughter will make?

i expect she'll be conveniently forgotten by the clone's maker.

[animatic]

I regret the loss of life of course,

but there is no need for exaggeration to make a point either.

You probably regret the loss of life of Hitler, Saddam and such scum He was a total war mongering psychopath with no concern for anyone else who dies due to his words or actions I and I think many are happy that at least one murdering thug got what he deserved. I do regret loss of life of sheep or is it buffalo who where killed totally due to red shirts and Mr T's provocation

I would have preferred he go to jail for good. But knew that wasn't gonna happen.

I also understand several possibilities about why he got taken out of the equation,

from several different political angles.I wasn't very surprised it happened,

because I essentially predicted it was likely the week before.

Doesn't mean I called for it or wanted it to happen like that either.

They had plenty of legal ammo to put him away for 30 years.

But that wouldn't have put an end to things either.

[jdinasia]

Well, someone blew Sae Daeng's head off, captured live on TV while he was being interviewed by CNN, exactly in that area. Let me try apologizing for that somehow. Then someone else can try apologizing for the slaughter of unarmed people inside a temple.

Who was it that did that?

So far I can come up with 7 or 8 different groups that had the three elements usually looked for in a suspect. As for the temple? I suspect that there may have been regular army units involved directly. I could be wrong about it though

[WinnieTheKhwai]

>I regret the loss of life of course,

>but there is no need for exaggeration to make a point either.

You probably regret the loss of life of Hitler, Saddam and such scum He was a total war mongering psychopath with no concern for anyone else who dies due to his words or actions I and I think many are happy that at least one murdering thug got what he deserved. I do regret loss of life of sheep or is it buffalo who where killed totally due to red shirts and Mr T's provocation

Interesting outburst. Not sure if I should reply because it might get axed, along with my reply. Anyway, Saddam got a trial. Hitler took his own life, his accomplices all got a trial. Strange comparison. Especially because we got on this topic because of the drug war, and disposing of alleged criminals without any form of trial. That's what happened in the drug war, which I stated was very wrong, and it was also wrong in the case of the Red protests. A lot of people died at the hands of the Royal Thai Army. Again.

[sakdam]

I'm not sure it will come true.

[jdinasia]

Interesting outburst. Not sure if I should reply because it might get axed, along with my reply. Anyway, Saddam got a trial. Hitler took his own life, his accomplices all got a trial. Strange comparison. Especially because we got on this topic because of the drug war, and disposing of alleged criminals without any form of trial. That's what happened in the drug war, which I stated was very wrong, and it was also wrong in the case of the Red protests. A lot of people died at the hands of the Royal Thai Army. Again.

Many people died last year, some by the RTA, some by the actual reds, some by the red's Black shirt's, with the addition of some possibly by parties not in those three groups. The fact that there were both armed reds AND an ultra-violent black-shirt group inside the red camp leading an armed insurrection appears overall to justify the military intervention. One life lost was one too many, but without Thaksin's violent redshirt movement which was armed, and Seh Daeng's ronin who were extremely well armed, and the redshirts leaderships' calls for violence murder and mayhem ... there would have been 0 lives lost. I would hope to see some justice for all those killed. Starting with the root cause, Thaksin and following the trail wherever it went. That would include elements in the RTA that are proven to have gone beyond the rules of engagement. It would also include ALL of the reds that had weapons, and should include all that stayed AFTER April 10th. That, however, would not lead to any kind of reconciliation, so those that did NOT bear ams illegally should be given an amnesty.

One would think that with all the claims of the military's rank and file coming from the NE (not sure how much of those claims are accurate) that someone would speak up with credible evidence to state that "I was given the order to....by ....", yet still nothing.

WTK -- you never did state who killed Seh Daeng

[phiphidon]

One would think that with all the claims of the military's rank and file coming from the NE (not sure how much of those claims are accurate) that someone would speak up with credible evidence to state that "I was given the order to....by ....", yet still nothing.

I am well aware of your (unfounded) criticism of my supposedly numerous one line replies but your statement that I quote beggars belief, so here it is;

Are you serious?

[jdinasia]

One would think that with all the claims of the military's rank and file coming from the NE (not sure how much of those claims are accurate) that someone would speak up with credible evidence to state that "I was given the order to....by ....", yet still nothing.

I am well aware of your (unfounded) criticism of my supposedly numerous one line replies but your statement that I quote beggars belief, so here it is;

Are you serious?

Absolutely serious. HRW didn't get anyone saying it .. none of the papers have ... etc The Red magazines don't have it ... the 2 red satellite satellite stations ... nobody. Not ONE soldier from any unit has come forward to say "our unit was told to .....by .....", I could understand unit loyalty enough for soldiers that were in units where individuals got caught up in the "fog of war" .. but nobody, even off the record saying they were told to kill unarmed people? You would think that at least a few soldiers with red leanings would have been pushed/bribed into statements like that. THAT beggars belief .. unless of course the rules of engagement were something like "keep the pressure on, don't let the insurgents pop their heads up long enough to get clear targets, push them back..."

There are some people that constantly talk about "the massacre" etc .... "indiscriminate firing into unarmed crowds" etc but from my POV and apparently that of many others, the death count besides having casualties on BOTH sides ... was pretty low. ((note--- in the post above that was truncated which laid the blame firmly where it belongs for every single death last year --- I did say that even one death was too many.))

[PingManDan]

If he does, it'll be a glorious day !!!:jap:

[phiphidon]

One would think that with all the claims of the military's rank and file coming from the NE (not sure how much of those claims are accurate) that someone would speak up with credible evidence to state that "I was given the order to....by ....", yet still nothing.

I am well aware of your (unfounded) criticism of my supposedly numerous one line replies but your statement that I quote beggars belief, so here it is;

Are you serious?

Absolutely serious. HRW didn't get anyone saying it .. none of the papers have ... etc The Red magazines don't have it ... the 2 red satellite satellite stations ... nobody. Not ONE soldier from any unit has come forward to say "our unit was told to .....by .....", I could understand unit loyalty enough for soldiers that were in units where individuals got caught up in the "fog of war" .. but nobody, even off the record saying they were told to kill unarmed people? You would think that at least a few soldiers with red leanings would have been pushed/bribed into statements like that. THAT beggars belief .. unless of course the rules of engagement were something like "keep the pressure on, don't let the insurgents pop their heads up long enough to get clear targets, push them back..."

There are some people that constantly talk about "the massacre" etc .... "indiscriminate firing into unarmed crowds" etc but from my POV and apparently that of many others, the death count besides having casualties on BOTH sides ... was pretty low. ((note--- in the post above that was truncated which laid the blame firmly where it belongs for every single death last year --- I did say that even one death was too many.))

By "are you serious" I meant do you really think that a rank and file soldier would speak up in Prayuths Army? As far as the units of soldiers involved are concerned, I will not elaborate, Jaturporn did and look where that got him. Coincidentally those officers involved in the crackdown have been well rewarded with promotions.

[Geeraphun]

I will be very happy to see him back.

This government has done nothing for us. I think that corruption is the number 1 problem here from small time street vendors right up to Government officials and Army allowing drugs to come into my country. When they let them in, they get richer. The way to stop or at least begin to stop corruptin in Thailand is to give good salaries and so people can live good life. This way there will be less chance of corruptions. When my childrens come from University they can only get low paying jobs. If children can finish University and get a good job that give them enough money to live a decent life then it will help their journy in life to take the middle path and go away from direction of corruption.

I am 50 year Thai and think government must start with:

1. Education at International standards for ALL Thai. Not only rich. English language must be good.
2. Good health care for ALL Thai people.
3. Thailand MUST have good internet if we want to compete Internationally.
4. Labor standards to be set so people can be to make good money for future
5. Stop corruption in Thailand at the same time as raising salaries.
6. Stop drugs here and even if people need to die. The drug dealers will know a law and if continue then they know have death penalty.
7. Have better anf fast system set up to help victoms of disasters because it seems to happen more these days.
8. Make peace with our neighbours even if it mean to give temple rights away in Cambodia and allow access for tourist.

I also have many foreign friend who complain about the visa rules etc so maybe if government can take the fee for visas and apply it direct to Education or war on drugs then the foreigner can feel good about where the visa money goes.

I know in the world all government have corruption but when Thaksin was our PM he did not hide it like many other governments. I can accept this. Maybe if Abhisit have more money and experience he could have done the good job but it is proved that he did not and he have his chance already.

It's good to see that 50-year-old Thais educated enough to have a perfect command of English are empassioned enough about Thai politics to conclusively put down their political thoughts on a first-ever Thavisa post along with a series of suggestions to fix Thailand's problems. Did you know that your bullet points are almost exactly Thaksin's own ideas, word for word? I can see why you would vote for him.

But, hang on, you're saying that corruption is bad, and then you're saying that Thaksin was nice and open about it. You want to get rid of corruption but want the most corrupt guy at the head of your country? That doesn't seem to make sense to me. You talk about drugs and corruption, referencing the army and government. But Thaksin oversaw this whole operation, and he didn't want to change it back then - he just wanted his share. Some might argue that he was kicked out because he wanted more than his share.

And I agree, drug dealers are the scum of the earth. They are all murderers, pimps and rapists and they all deserve to die; it's a myth that the network of drug dealing is full of victims of social circumstances. And those drug mules in particular should be subject to death by genital electrocution. But, hang on, the most recent investigation - you know, the one first shelved by Thaksin and then by the Samak administration - show that less than half of the people killed had any ties whatsoever with the drug industry. Would a collateral damage rate of 60%+ be acceptable to you in the next war on drugs?

You make a lot of interesting points in your post, much like the Quadrangled Prophet himself, but really no indication of how it's going to be executed.

Thank you for kind words on my English. I was fortunate.

I only said that every politition in world is corrupt and we all know this but with Thaksin he did not try and hide it like others have. I would prefer to know how I am being cheeted so I can dicide how to deal with it. In another countries with so called educated polititions they are fighting wars and they have no money in their budget but still interfear with other countries politics. These are governments that hide the corruption from the people. When we have Thaksin before he would tell us "Ok I am going to cheet you now and give you money for your vote" and we can make decision on this basis. He did not hide his corruption like the now government by blocking TV stations, radios and news.

With his war on drugs there is no Thai person who enjoy to see some people die if they do not deserve it but it is a war that is needed and maybe he learn from his past mistake. If you touch the fire you will not touch again. Yes when he investigate he tell the truth about many people who die were innocent. Another government would hide this fact. If you ask me about will 60%+ be acceptable in next war I can only say that I never want to see any percent of the innocent Thai people die but unfortunatly yes always have inncocent casualties in any war. If I have to die to save my childrens and my grandchildrens future to not have the drugs I cann accept that.

Another person here say that Thailand is the biggest producer of ganja in the world but he is very wrong. It grows more in Columbia and another countries I think and we never have the problem with people that have the ganja. It is a modern day drug problem with the drugs that make children crazy like a mefanfetime .... I think you know the word and the yaba and ice and these very bad drugs.

Only my opinion that all Thai want good government and not corruption but I think we cannot ever have a no corruption government because noone have anywhere. But what choice do we have for vote a new government? If have good choice maybe can change but here not ike another countries. We have few choices here and Thaksin have money and experience and maybe can change things because other country like Cambodia he know and can help this situation and he repect from another countries like Middle East that we need the business from. He is a very good business man and when he was my priminister he can have the business with many countries because they respect him. They dont care he corrupt or not. They only care he good for business or not.

Excellent posts Geeraphan!! I feel we're all very fortunate that you take the time to post here. Thank you.

Only part I have to disagree on is the war on drugs; just because someone calls it a war doesn't actually make it a war, and make the specific rules of war apply in what is internal law enforcement. (I felt the same about things like 'war on terror'. ). Rules of war apply for example in the skirmishes with Cambodia (even though those are utterly silly and unnecessary) but when it comes to crime, including drugs cimes then there is no excuse but to work within the law; that's why there are laws. If the laws don't work then the politician's job is to get those laws improved.

The other example of war being wages on civilians is of course the red shirt protests, with people being slaughtered even inside a temple. In his latest interview which was in a newspaper that shall not be mentioned here, Thaksin urged to 'forgive and forget'. While that makes sense and his certainly politically convenient for all, I still don't like it not to have this investigated.

Since my last post we have been very busy at my university and I had my students take surveys on the subject of "the war on drugs" and they also survey foriegners.

One of the questions I had my students put to foriegners was:

If in your country, the government had declared a WOD and have given in the media a clear time frame that it would begin, do you feel that anyone who was caught with drugs durring this period knowing clearly what the punishment was, be treated any different to the punishment that was mediated ?

Most foriegners funnily enough quoted:

• If I was a drug dealer at this time, I would have at least stopped until the WOD was over,
• If my country told us that anyone caught drinking and driving between certain dates would be put in jail for 10 years, I would not drink and drive durring this time.
• I feel that the Thai people were well warned and if they were caught dealing drugs or having drugs that their punishment was justified.
• I can't see any way of dealing with the drug problem here but hard, fast and consistent.
• I don't feel that anyone deserves to die but it seems that these drug dealers have a different opinion and don't care if they kill young and old with their drugs so why show mercy to them durring a WOD?
• I'm from Canada and in the 80's our government cracked down on DUI's (Driving while Under the Influence) and gave harsh penalties and within one year the amount of DUI's was very minimal so I believe in the hard way to end what has become un-controlable.

I am not sure but will ask someone in charge of TV if I can post the actual surveys we conduct here.

Our jails are already full of criminals and I believe we need to build many more jails just set out for drug dealers. I do not agree with the killings that went on and would rather see anyone who was "caught red handed" was sentenced to life in prison. I think that after Thaksin's WOD and all the people who were killed that the next WOD no matter what party declares it that maybe more people will start to take it serious after the last one however I am not and have never used drugs but believe that if a drug dealer is making 200,000 baht a month let's say and has the choice between dying or dealing that many will chose the "take a chance" attitude.

[Pi Sek]

Since my last post we have been very busy at my university and I had my students take surveys on the subject of "the war on drugs" and they also survey foriegners.

One of the questions I had my students put to foriegners was:

If in your country, the government had declared a WOD and have given in the media a clear time frame that it would begin, do you feel that anyone who was caught with drugs durring this period knowing clearly what the punishment was, be treated any different to the punishment that was mediated ?

Most foriegners funnily enough quoted:

• If I was a drug dealer at this time, I would have at least stopped until the WOD was over,
• If my country told us that anyone caught drinking and driving between certain dates would be put in jail for 10 years, I would not drink and drive durring this time.
• I feel that the Thai people were well warned and if they were caught dealing drugs or having drugs that their punishment was justified.
• I can't see any way of dealing with the drug problem here but hard, fast and consistent.
• I don't feel that anyone deserves to die but it seems that these drug dealers have a different opinion and don't care if they kill young and old with their drugs so why show mercy to them durring a WOD?
• I'm from Canada and in the 80's our government cracked down on DUI's (Driving while Under the Influence) and gave harsh penalties and within one year the amount of DUI's was very minimal so I believe in the hard way to end what has become un-controlable.

I am not sure but will ask someone in charge of TV if I can post the actual surveys we conduct here.

Our jails are already full of criminals and I believe we need to build many more jails just set out for drug dealers. I do not agree with the killings that went on and would rather see anyone who was "caught red handed" was sentenced to life in prison. I think that after Thaksin's WOD and all the people who were killed that the next WOD no matter what party declares it that maybe more people will start to take it serious after the last one however I am not and have never used drugs but believe that if a drug dealer is making 200,000 baht a month let's say and has the choice between dying or dealing that many will chose the "take a chance" attitude.

Sorry for the short reply Khun Geeraphun, but you are missing the key fact that the last publicised investigation results showed that at least 1,450 of the c. 2,500 cases were not involved in the drug trade. Therefore the activity of drug dealers during a "War on Drugs" is totally irrelevant in this respect - more than half of those killed were categorically not involved whatsoever. I would have thought that someone in a position to shape the minds of Thailand's academics would have been very well aware of that fact and I do hope you are not pushing your political agenda on your students!

There is also the additional fact that yaba, for example, was both cheaper and less available before Thaksin's War on Drugs. As anyone who has read histories will tell you, prohibition does not work. It creates a shift in the supply and demand curves; and this does not depend on local culture, it depends on human nature - so Thailand is no different to the rest of the world. Usually the price goes up sharply in such circumstances but the quantity demanded stays very close to what it always was (this means a large increase in total revenue in the production & sales industry, leading to more "serious" criminals joining the industry). I'm not saying blanket decriminisation is a solution to the problem - I am just stating an economical fact of life, that a "War on Drugs" cannot possibly achieve its aims. I know the content of education in Thailand is "influenced" and maybe not 100% conclusive but, as a political science lecturer, did you not learn that (honest question)?

Also, the same question again: any idea of PTP's executable plan to improve things where they say Abhisit fails? It's an important question because I have put it to everyone sympathetic to Peua Thai and I have not received a single answer. Even the PTP MPs themselves seem to dodge the question!

[jdinasia]

By "are you serious" I meant do you really think that a rank and file soldier would speak up in Prayuths Army? As far as the units of soldiers involved are concerned, I will not elaborate, Jaturporn did and look where that got him. Coincidentally those officers involved in the crackdown have been well rewarded with promotions.

Even "off the record" --- face and voice pixillated and modulated ---- etc .... Yet not even one redshirt media source has found a single person to say that the ROE (rules of engagement) was to kill innocents? You don't find that strange? Look at the claims made by the redshirt leaders on stage about the same subject ---- Not one NGO has gone on record to say that they found a single soldier willing to state that either.

At least one of those officers " well rewarded with promotions" would have to have been posthumously along with the rest that were killed on April 10th.

[jdinasia]

Geeraphun, are the results of that survey available (in Thai or English) on any university website?

edit to add.....

I personally do not believe that foreigners would excuse 2500+ extra-judicial murders, or that they would accept the loss of innocent lives from the majority that were NOT involved with drugs at all.

I also do not believe that Thais would accept the loss of those innocents not involved in the war on drugs.

In short ... I simply don't believe the claims being made at all.