Exact Cause Of Chiang Mai Hotel Deaths May Be Impossible To Find: Health Official

[SanSaiExPat]

I believe it's New Zealand's Channel 4 reporting this. http://www.channel4.com/news/brits-among-mystery-tourist-deaths-in-thailand

"Meanwhile, undercover reporters for New Zealand's 3 News booked rooms at the Downtown Inn, posing as tourists. When 3 News arrived, they claimed they found Thai authorities "pulling apart" the room that Ms Carter had stayed in, ahead of a visit from the health authorities." So New Zealand's Chanel 3 investigative reporters catch the Thai Authorities red handed destroying evidence ahead of WHO on site investigation teams. Of course it will be difficult to determine the cause of death when Thai authorities have deliberately contaminated a crime scene and destroyed critical evidence. The rooms the victims stayed in should have been sealed off as soon as humanly possible after they became sick and died.

[brianb1944]

Exact Cause Of Chiang Mai Hotel Deaths

May Be POLITICALLY Impossible To Find IN THAILAND:

Health Official, WHO FEARS FOR HIS JOB and/or LIFE.

sounds about right

[fxe1200]

"finding exact cause of deaths may be impossible"

Naturally! It's another TiT case.

It would not be impossible if the hotel was shut down (as it should be) pending the outcome of the investigation by Japan, the US and WHO.

Probably the hotel will have new paint and a different name soon. That will be the logical consequence. Anybody want to bet?

[featography]

The below contains the text (scroll down) of Thailand's FDA warning about the indoor use of chlorpyrifos before the article was apparently withdrawn by the Bangkok Post:

http://photo-journ.c...gn-media-report

Surasing said the team would also be happy to accept any help in term of experts and also warned that public should not expect too much because a disease investigation might not definitely find the exact cause of the death sometimes. He said the team would also have a teleconference over the case with foreign experts at 6pm yesterday. He said the hotelroom where Carter stayed prior to her death was also closed and the hotel insisted they didn't use the chemical spray chlorpyrifos. He also added that chlorpyrifos would be fatal if one drank a glassful of it or 87cc hence death by inhaling it was unlikely. He said they would continue the probe with helps from experts and would keep those involved updated.

So many lies and still the big WHY.:jap:

WHO should be pushing harder to find out WHY

[Emster23]

There are so many ways to die, I just don't which one to choose.

[dangman]

"finding exact cause of deaths may be impossible"

Naturally! It's another TiT case.

It would not be impossible if the hotel was shut down (as it should be) pending the outcome of the investigation by Japan, the US and WHO.

Probably the hotel will have new paint and a different name soon. That will be the logical consequence. Anybody want to bet?

even if you gave 100-1 i wouldn't bet against that.

[DNPBC0]

I believe it's New Zealand's Channel 4 reporting this. http://www.channel4....ths-in-thailand

.........

Channel 4 is a TV broadcasting company in the UK, not New Zealand

[Arkady]

"He (the Governor of Chiang Mai Province) said that there were actually only four people; the elderly English couple whose deaths weren't questioned by relatives due to their ages"

I wonder where he got the information that the family of the English couple thought it quite normal that these spritely septagenarians with no record of heart trouble suddenly went from being perfectly healthy to dead of heart failure within a few minutes. Their son, Stephen Everitt, clearly disagrees vehemently with this callous view. Otherwise why would he have demanded the British coroner's enquiry which is now going to take place? ML Panadda's statement here is inconsistent with the facts.

[Arkady]

"Health official says finding exact cause of deaths may be impossible."

Vested interests made sure of this from the get go when it was definitely still possible. Now, even with the best will in the world, which is clearly lacking in Chiang Mai, it would be impossible but the foreign media interest will ensure that the pantomime of Thai denial continues for a while.

[RobCarter]

Curiously there isn't a single comment about the deaths on TripAdvisor for this hotel. But I've seen evidence that tourism has been significantly affected for Chiang Mai as a result of all this.

I left a review a week ago, and is still pending... Conveniently.

[toybits]

So choosing a Chiang Mai Hotel is like very much like Russian Roulette?

[The Snark]

And then...

If chlorpyrifros was in fact the cause, a whole lot of additional questions arise. Organophosphates are only moderately poisonous until significant quantities are inhaled or ingested. Such quantities would normally be detectable by autopsy. What is not fitting in the pattern is multiple deaths from myocarditis which is not a common effect of organophosphates. I wish the investigators the best of luck. It sounds like some serious sleuthing is in order.

[sydneyjed]

Yes there are/was on the Chiang Mai forum but all of mine/others were ommitted...albeit at least got a few days on a couple!One on there now but just too heavy to focus too much on the negative to do a total rant !Fair enough as it is generally well known what has happened now but why should the rest of the people involved in tourism there suffer for what's happened at the one hotel...so us kicking up a stink at what we know is happening shouldn't impact on tourists holidays now or locals livelyhoods!We can't change what we know ultimately always happens here and sadly looking at a group of influential thai's waffeling on at a stage managed news conference just reinforces that!

I'm sure certain authorities, such as Health Department, are very concerned and have been working hard, however it seems to have been countered by the usual Asian Businessman attempt to silence things, but unfortunately farangs are involved and though you can persuade the local police to give you a clean bill of health, you can't persuade the world that it was all a co-incidental accident. Thus it's backfired and the negative publicity has amplified as New Zealand TV programs etc keep the story alive. There's been no more deaths since late March, the bug or whatever is probably now gone, it appears to be one of those perplexing cases where several plausible theories are inconclusive to account for the random nature of deaths, therefore the possibility of several factors converging.

All, the same it's a lesson (not) learnt, in how not to deal with the situation. Downtown Inn is (I believe) owned by the same guy as the Empress, who was formerly president of the Chiang Mai Hotelier Assoc. - and the reaction to this was very similar to that of the Chiang Mai haze syndrome, where they think first of minimising the impact to business by blocking the health advisories from local authorities, thereby placing the public at further risk.

Curiously there isn't a single comment about the deaths on TripAdvisor for this hotel. But I've seen evidence that tourism has been significantly affected for Chiang Mai as a result of all this.

[Latindancer]

Just an observation.

While myocaditis may have been the cause of some of these deaths, myocarditis in turn almost certainly has to caused by something. It is not normally a developed heart disease like congestive heart failure (artherosclerosis). Myocarditis is most commonly caused by infection from a virus, a bacterial infection, or through toxins.

Sudden death from myocarditis, commonly referred to as a 'heart attack', without an underlying invasive cause is extremely rare. What needs to be determined is the cause of the condition. Virus, bacteria, toxemia or trauma such as electric shock. Simply stating this was the cause of the majority of these deaths does not explain the likely underlying cause. Basic pathology would probably rule out a virus as the cause as the incubation period takes a given amount of time. Trauma could also be ruled out as there are normally obvious indicators. This leaves bacteria or toxins which is where the New Zealand and other investigations are looking.

Possibilities:

-An unidentified virus. Can be extremely difficult or even impossible to identify. There are many diseases that have viruses as their cause which have been known for years but have yet to be identified.

-A pathogen. Competent pathological investigation can often identify an infective bacteria. Extensive laboratory analysis would be required.

-A toxin. Unlikely as traces of the poison would normally be found in body tissue or in the urinary tract, providing an autopsy specifically searches for it.

You mean viruses and bacteria like those which probably live in this kitchen, typical for a village ?

Hygiene in Thailand is quite low. Our intestines have many immune system cells, but people who have never been exposed to certain viruses or bacteria can come into sudden catastrophic contact with them and be in big trouble.

Though the people who actually live here probably never even get diarrhea from the same stuff. I visited this place pictured and found that seafood residue was hardly even washed out of the washing-up corner, and seafood is always the first thing suspected as a cause for food poisoning.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Latindancer

[Methuselah]

Had initial investigations been sufficiently thorough and scientifically scrupulous,the answers would have been available a long time ago.It would appear however that the seriousness and implications of the deaths may not have been understood by those responsible for the immediate investigations.

Hospital staff in any western hospital may not have picked up the possibility of organophosphate toxicity{rare events rarely occur],and would probably have concentrated their efforts on life support,and advanced life support--i.e.treating the symptoms and signs.This presumably occurred in Chiang Mai with the girls from New Zealand.

The deaths of the English couple should have immediately alerted authorities to the likelihood of an inhaled toxin.A meticulous inspection of the hotel should have been undertaken,and relevant room samples taken.A top forensic pathologist should have been in charge of the post mortems and relevant specimins taken.A low plasma cholinesterase level would then have clinched the diagnosis of organophosphate poisoning.

Unfortunately,the seriousness of events was realised too late,so authorities now are probably correct--we will never discover proof of the cause of deaths.All we have is circumstantial evidence,speculation and red herrings.

I would be interested in what tests are being conducted oveseas,and why laboratories are taking three months to analyse sampes.

[personchester]

It's easy to get paranoid in this part of the world, but I have just received a Google alert for an article appearing a short time ago in today's Bangkok Post, entitled 'FDA: Chlorpyrifos Dangerous in Bedrooms'. The article begins, "Thailand's Food and Drug Administration has warned the public to refrain from using pesticides containing chlorpyrifos in a bedroom as there is no substantial report on the product's safety. The warning on Friday followed reports in the New Zealand ...'

When I clicked on the link to read the full article, I received the message, "The web page or article you tried to reach is not currently available. Usually this happens because the page has been moved or it no longer exists." I have searched the BP online news site, and there is no record of the article.

A lot of people, including farangs buy various pesticides in 'supermarkets and pharmacies' to clear their homes of tropical insects, in particular mosquito's.

Thus does anyone know whether some of those pesticides contain "Chlorpyrifos" in a maximal or minimal form, if so, then please let us know, as we don't know exactly what the heck is going in this respect here, since it could not be just a matter of almost instant dying, as in the above case, but could also in a "minimal form" create health problems that could lead to serious slow suffering illnesses, in particular for retired farangs, whose ageing bodies have a lesser anti-poisonous defence, which could lead to an earlier dead as a result.

[saroq]

I'm sure certain authorities, such as Health Department, are very concerned and have been working hard, however it seems to have been countered by the usual Asian Businessman attempt to silence things, but unfortunately farangs are involved and though you can persuade the local police to give you a clean bill of health, you can't persuade the world that it was all a co-incidental accident. Thus it's backfired and the negative publicity has amplified as New Zealand TV programs etc keep the story alive. There's been no more deaths since late March, the bug or whatever is probably now gone, it appears to be one of those perplexing cases where several plausible theories are inconclusive to account for the random nature of deaths, therefore the possibility of several factors converging.

All, the same it's a lesson (not) learnt, in how not to deal with the situation. Downtown Inn is (I believe) owned by the same guy as the Empress, who was formerly president of the Chiang Mai Hotelier Assoc. - and the reaction to this was very similar to that of the Chiang Mai haze syndrome, where they think first of minimising the impact to business by blocking the health advisories from local authorities, thereby placing the public at further risk.

Curiously there isn't a single comment about the deaths on TripAdvisor for this hotel. But I've seen evidence that tourism has been significantly affected for Chiang Mai as a result of all this.

I wrote a review about the Down Town Inn, Chiang Mai on the TripAdvisor website about a month ago. I informed them of the number of deaths that had occurred there, provided a link to the news article on ThaiVisa.com and I think I may have even copied the article. I checked for a few weeks but to my knowledge my review / warning was never published. I don't believe that multiple negative reviews about the individual hotel would affect the rest of the businesses in Chiang Mai and it is probably the only way to get them to take action about the deaths. I sure would want to know if the hotel I was planning to stay at had had so many unexplained deaths. I guess that TripAdvisor.com doesn't really care about giving honest advise to the traveling public after all.

Edited May 14, 2011 by saroq

[saroq]

"He (the Governor of Chiang Mai Province) said that there were actually only four people; the elderly English couple whose deaths weren't questioned by relatives due to their ages"

I wonder where he got the information that the family of the English couple thought it quite normal that these spritely septagenarians with no record of heart trouble suddenly went from being perfectly healthy to dead of heart failure within a few minutes. Their son, Stephen Everitt, clearly disagrees vehemently with this callous view. Otherwise why would he have demanded the British coroner's enquiry which is now going to take place? ML Panadda's statement here is inconsistent with the facts.

And dying on the same day as each other. is that just a coincidence too?

[insertmembernamehere]

I'm dying to stay at this hotel and see if I too get sick....

[TigerWan]

BUt as the toxity reports are not back , the case is far from solved and claims it is that chemical are premature. Though it certainly is a logical and probably accurate conclusion.

I wish Thailand would get itslef a PR firm to do the talking. Really I feel sure much of what is reported is twisted about 60 degrees by the poor English skills

[DNPBC0]

Had initial investigations been sufficiently thorough and scientifically scrupulous,the answers would have been available a long time ago.It would appear however that the seriousness and implications of the deaths may not have been understood by those responsible for the immediate investigations.

Hospital staff in any western hospital may not have picked up the possibility of organophosphate toxicity{rare events rarely occur],and would probably have concentrated their efforts on life support,and advanced life support--i.e.treating the symptoms and signs.This presumably occurred in Chiang Mai with the girls from New Zealand.

The deaths of the English couple should have immediately alerted authorities to the likelihood of an inhaled toxin.A meticulous inspection of the hotel should have been undertaken,and relevant room samples taken.A top forensic pathologist should have been in charge of the post mortems and relevant specimins taken.A low plasma cholinesterase level would then have clinched the diagnosis of organophosphate poisoning.

Unfortunately,the seriousness of events was realised too late,so authorities now are probably correct--we will never discover proof of the cause of deaths.All we have is circumstantial evidence,speculation and red herrings.

I would be interested in what tests are being conducted oveseas,and why laboratories are taking three months to analyse sampes.

I basically agree, but what I don't fully understand is why the medical staff at the Chiang Mai Ram Hospital did not seem to apply the usual diagnostic sieve, especially since they were faced with three patients at the same hotel with very similar symptoms, and that Sarah Carter was readmitted. If they failed to consider chemical toxins as the cause in an environment where dangerous insecticides seem to be in common use and unregulated, then that is an issue which, in most other places in the world, would be regarded as a serious mistake. On the other hand, what did the hospital staff think? Will we ever never know? Did they take blood samples and store them at less than 4C? Did they take urine samples and store these correctly for later analyses? Are they, for example, providing appropriately preserved brain tissue samples for analysis?

Given the recent pulling of the FDA statement by the Bangkok Post, I guess there may have been substantial barriers to making their medical response known – to anybody. As a New Zealander, I do know that in our country any explained death automatically leads to a sentinel investigation and that multiple unexplained deaths under similar circumstances, especially if 'coincidental', would trigger an investigation at a national level, as would any hospital level investigation deemed to be unsatisfactory.

Of course, TIT. Fine. Go for it. I live in Thailand, but I have absolutely no allegiance to bad medical and public health practice wherever it may exist. I certainly have no sympathy whatsoever with the view that further investigations of the issue will harm the self-interests of Chiang Mai tourist entrepreneurs. In fact, as one of the early promoters of New Zealand's current sentinel event system, I will be drawing attention to the risk of New Zealanders proposing to tour Thailand, where very dangerous insecticides are used and are unregulated.

My 'bottom line' is that at this stage I don't know whether or not the coincidental deaths were due to chlorpyrifos poisoning, but the circumstantial evidence certainly points in that direction. If the overseas test results support the insecticide poisoning theory or even if the results are inconclusive, my own position will harden, primarily because of the disingenuous approach of the Thai authorities, especially the Governor of Chiang Mai, and the almost unbelievable apparent self-censorship of the Bangkok Post.

[ratcliffe]

"finding exact cause of deaths may be impossible"

Naturally! It's another TiT case.

It would not be impossible if the hotel was shut down (as it should be) pending the outcome of the investigation by Japan, the US and WHO.

I too a following the story closely and would like to know if anyone know's when exactly Japan and the U.S. are going to deliever their findings?

This is what we are all waiting for.....

[Credo]

A good Laboratory will take whatever time it takes to do the tests it needs to do. Even if they put a rush on it, the people involved will take the necessary time to come up with scientifically verifiable answers.

Hospitals have a lot of staff and there was likely various staff working on these cases. The staff may not have known there was any kind of a pattern emerging. There are people whose job it is to take a look at these things and alert public health officials etc. I don't know if this applies to Thailand, however.

[Tanaka]

/quote/"Prior to the conference yesterday, Panadda commented that the international media's news reported had exaggerated facts especially the number of seven persons died after staying or using the facilities of Downtown Inn Hotel. He said that there were actually only four people; the elderly English couple whose deaths weren't questioned by relatives due to their ages, hence only a Thai female tour guide and the 23yearold New Zealand tourist Sarah Carter - the latter whose death on February 6 led to news headlines. He also said the hotel owner wasn't his relative as claimed."/unquote/

Panadda (who is not a relative of the hotel owner. This week) now claims that there were not seven people who died in CM, only four and of those half of them of natural causes! At the same time in the same room!

In military training there was a saying that if the map did not correspond with real nature, nature was overruled.

In Thailand now it is if your lies do not comply with truth and reality, then your lies are the truth. Ad infinitum.

[sydneyjed]

saroq I do agree that 'the tale needs to be told' but can understand where tripadviser is coming from as it is really there to cater for tourists who are basically wanting information on attractions,locations,tips for their holidays...not this!Granted they need to know but tripadviser isn't the place to voice what's right,what isn't in the end..The news/t.v channels should be left to that...Just think now the local tourist industry should be allowed to earn a living again mate...Let's respect that!!

"He (the Governor of Chiang Mai Province) said that there were actually only four people; the elderly English couple whose deaths weren't questioned by relatives due to their ages"

I wonder where he got the information that the family of the English couple thought it quite normal that these spritely septagenarians with no record of heart trouble suddenly went from being perfectly healthy to dead of heart failure within a few minutes. Their son, Stephen Everitt, clearly disagrees vehemently with this callous view. Otherwise why would he have demanded the British coroner's enquiry which is now going to take place? ML Panadda's statement here is inconsistent with the facts.

And dying on the same day as each other. is that just a coincidence too?

[partington]

BUt as the toxity reports are not back , the case is far from solved and claims it is that chemical are premature. Though it certainly is a logical and probably accurate conclusion.

I wish Thailand would get itslef a PR firm to do the talking. Really I feel sure much of what is reported is twisted about 60 degrees by the poor English skills

Was it poor English skills that allowed the hotel management to strip the 5th floor bedrooms, flush the air conditioners, and scrub the rooms and furniture a day before the health inspectors were due to arrive as reported by the New Zealand reporters who checked into the hotel undercover?

[sydneyjed]

Or twisted 360 degrees by good Thai skills?PR is the last thing I would have thought is needed in Thailand ..just a good shovel to get through the bull sh.it that's dished up on a regular basis every time there's a death/balcony fall...and of course married couples dying 'normally within a hour of each other!Arthur Daley?

BUt as the toxity reports are not back , the case is far from solved and claims it is that chemical are premature. Though it certainly is a logical and probably accurate conclusion.

I wish Thailand would get itslef a PR firm to do the talking. Really I feel sure much of what is reported is twisted about 60 degrees by the poor English skills

Was it poor English skills that allowed the hotel management to strip the 5th floor bedrooms, flush the air conditioners, and scrub the rooms and furniture a day before the health inspectors were due to arrive as reported by the New Zealand reporters who checked into the hotel undercover?

[Macmundi]

there's nothing possible in Thailand.. only how to 'get away with it.' If you got the money.

[saroq]

saroq I do agree that 'the tale needs to be told' but can understand where tripadviser is coming from as it is really there to cater for tourists who are basically wanting information on attractions,locations,tips for their holidays...not this!Granted they need to know but tripadviser isn't the place to voice what's right,what isn't in the end..The news/t.v channels should be left to that...Just think now the local tourist industry should be allowed to earn a living again mate...Let's respect that!!

"He (the Governor of Chiang Mai Province) said that there were actually only four people; the elderly English couple whose deaths weren't questioned by relatives due to their ages"

I wonder where he got the information that the family of the English couple thought it quite normal that these spritely septagenarians with no record of heart trouble suddenly went from being perfectly healthy to dead of heart failure within a few minutes. Their son, Stephen Everitt, clearly disagrees vehemently with this callous view. Otherwise why would he have demanded the British coroner's enquiry which is now going to take place? ML Panadda's statement here is inconsistent with the facts.

And dying on the same day as each other. is that just a coincidence too?

I know where you're coming from and I wouldn't want to tar every tourist operator with the same brush but let's face it, it's only because of international media that anything is being done. So I acknowledge that the media has the primary responsibility to air these stories. However, I maintain that any traveler would want to know this information and TripAdvisor.com purports to offers advice. From their site "Over 45 million trusted traveler reviews & opinions." If someone was nicking tourist's cash or passports at a hotel they'd report that. Multiple deaths and nothing being done about it is advice that they should publish. I had a quick check and I can't find any comment on their site about this issue. How many have died there, seven? Seven deaths ... let's respect that too.

[DNPBC0]

The Bangkok Post's editorial department appears to experiencing a bad bout of multiple personality disorder. After recently pulling the FDA warning about the use of chlorpyrifos in bedrooms, today they publish an editorial which says:

"The deaths of the seven people, four of whom stayed at the same hotel, the Downtown Inn, and two of whom had used that hotel's facilities, are tragic any way you look at it, but it is conceivable that something similar could happen anywhere in the world. What is potentially so harmful to Thailand's image and well-earned reputation as a relatively safe vacation spot is the perception that the hotel's owner and the authorities are not doing all they can to prevent similar tragedies and to get to the bottom of the mystery. Although it is possible that the deaths are unrelated, it is irresponsible to assume that it is all just coincidence, as has been the official line from the start.

Last week, evidence was presented on the New Zealand TV3 programme 60 Minutes that the insecticide chlorpyrifos may have been responsible for the deaths, as traces of the chemical were found in rooms at the Downtown Inn in which four of the deceased stayed in February, even after the rooms had been cleaned routinely by hotel staff. On the programme, United Nations chemical expert Ron McDowall gave strong support to the idea that the organophosphate chlorpyrifos is a prime suspect.

A Bangkok Post reporter was told last week that the hotel floor where three of the victims stayed has been closed, but that is not enough. The entire hotel should be closed immediately, voluntarily by the owner or at the insistence of the authorities, and it should be done with fanfare, sending a message that public health is the first priority. Then a well-organised and no-holds-barred investigation comprising local, national and possibly international health and forensic experts should be convened to put this deadly mystery to rest." [my bolding]

http://www.bangkokpo...l-in-chiang-mai