Alternative To Instantaneous Hot Water Systems.

[electau]

Informative only. Are these available in Thailand yet?

An Alternative to existing HWS or where it is not practical to install a standard solar thermal HWS.

Synergy 310HAV

The Solahart Synergy 310HAV is a smart, energy efficient alternative for areas where a traditional solar water heater may not be suitable. It uses one of the most abundant renewable energy sources, heat from the air, to provide hot water for your family.

Rather than using roof mounted collector panels, efficient heat pump technology extracts energy from the surrounding air. Ambient warmth is used to convert the refrigerant within the sealed system into a gas. The gas is then compressed to generate even more heat, which then heats the water in the tank. What’s more this process can work day or night, in sunshine and rain, all year round.

The Solahart Synergy also uses an advanced design to provide single pass true top down heating. The flow of the water through the heat exchanger is controlled to ensure the water is heated to 60°C in a single pass and deposited at the top of the storage cylinder for immediate use. This ensures a faster supply of useable hot water.

The Synergy’s larger compressor gives quicker recovery providing hot water faster. Synergy has the recovery similar to an electric water heater, but with the energy savings of a solar water heater. The ceramic lined tank with its protective anode has been developed for longer life and provides peace of mind. It is also equipped with an electric booster designed to operate only in very cold conditions to ensure a quick and eficient supply of hot water when you need it most.

Heat Pump 325HAV

The Solahart Heat Pump 325HAV is a smart, energy efficient alternative for areas where a traditional solar water heater may not be suitable. It uses one of the most abundant renewable energy sources, heat from the air, to provide hot water for your family.

Rather than using roof mounted collector panels, efficient heat pump technology extracts energy from the surrounding air. Ambient warmth is used to convert the refrigerant within the sealed system into a gas. The gas is then compressed to generate even more heat which then heats the water in the tank. What’s more this process can work day or night, in sunshine and rain, all year round.

Installation is quick and easy. The heat pump can usually be installed in the same location as an outdoor electric water heater and connected up to the existing plumbing and electrical connections, making it a great replacement for an existing water heater.

It is also equipped with an electric booster designed to operate only in very cold conditions to ensure a quick and efficient supply of hot water when you may need it most.

The ceramic lined tank is further protected by its sacrificial anode designed to provide longer life and peace of mind.

[Crossy]

Yes, EnergyMaster have them (or something similar at least), there's a thread on a competing and unmentionable forum (think hardwood doors).

Certainly interesting, how much cool air do these put out, enough to keep a bedroom comfortable for example?

EDIT The units on their main products page are rather big for domestic use, but a little digging revealed this http://www.energymaster.co.th/download/Heat_Pump_Catalog_household_series.pdf

3.3kW of water heating for 690W of electricity and a by-product is cool air

All we need now is the initial cost, which won't be low

[juehoe]

Yes, EnergyMaster have them (or something similar at least), there's a thread on a competing and unmentionable forum (think hardwood doors).

[...]All we need now is the initial cost, which won't be low

The thread is from me - and I don't think that these two forums are competing; there are completing each other…

The installation costs are really high (around THB 140'000) - about the same as a sophisticated solar water heater. I am still very satisfied and convinced of my heat pump!

[Crossy]

Cheers for that juehoe, 140k will certainly pay for a lot of electricity at 4Baht a unit (about 35,000 units).

Quick and Dirty payback estimate, my shower is 3.5kW (so let's say I'm saving 3kW of use if I use the heat pump). Shower 10 mins twice a day x two persons = 40 mins @ 3kW = 1.8 units a day on hot water (cold only in the kitchen), puts payback at 50+ years, so it's not economical for us

That said, those with larger families or small hotels could well see significantly shorter paybacks, as with many things, horses for courses.

[electau]

This particular model does not supply airconditioning but is designed to retro fit (replace) a conventional storage type HWS.

There is a problem in Thailand as electricity for water heating is not charged at a lower tariff(rate). This is why instantaneous water heaters are generally used instead which unfortunately have a high watts/litre demand.

And the location of residential metering precludes the use of an additional meter and relay even if it was available.

But just for interest here are some of the tech. specifications. 310HAV.

Storage capacity 310 litres.

Electrical boost capacity 220 litres.

Temperature setting 60C.

Power minimum connection time 16 hours per day.

Rated input power 1300 watts.

Voltage 230/240. 50 Hz.

Refrigerant. R134a.

　

[Naam]

Cheers for that juehoe, 140k will certainly pay for a lot of electricity at 4Baht a unit (about 35,000 units).

Quick and Dirty payback estimate, my shower is 3.5kW (so let's say I'm saving 3kW of use if I use the heat pump). Shower 10 mins twice a day x two persons = 40 mins @ 3kW = 1.8 units a day on hot water (cold only in the kitchen), puts payback at 50+ years, so it's not economical for us

That said, those with larger families or small hotels could well see significantly shorter paybacks, as with many things, horses for courses.

considering the yield on THB 140k capital investment at a modest 6% p.a. = THB 8,400 = 2,100 kWh p.a = 97 minutes per day hot of water generated by a 3.5 kW conventional heater = nearly 5 showers for Mr and Mrs Crossy per day. alternatively the Crossys could stick to their two daily showers and invite the neighbours to shower (against payment of a modest fee).

summary: payback = stillborn baby (as so often when it concerns energy savings)

p.s. as usual... i apologise for spoiling an interesting technical story with stupid facts :jap:

[Naam]

for what it's worth:

heat pumps are a phantastic solution when you get one of its features (which one can use) free of charge, e.g. the airconditioning (cooling) of my pool area (alternative living room) comes without any cost because the main purpose of the unit is to heat my pool during the cool season november till march.

total cost nearly identical to the heat pump as described above but heating capacity 13.5 kW / input of 3.9kW at an ambient temperature of 28ºC / 65% rel. humidity. taking into consideration that just the Titanium heat exchanger for my system costs more than 60,000 Baht i conclude that the price for the abobe-mentioned "toy" (heating feature only) is highway robbery.

[electau]

Here is a typical consumption figures for a 135 litre 1800 watt storage HWS.set at 70C.

Consumption. 3 kWh per day.

Number of persons 2.

HW to kitchen and shower.

[Naam]

Here is a typical consumption figures for a 135 litre 1800 watt storage HWS.set at 70C.

Consumption. 3 kWh per day.

Number of persons 2.

HW to kitchen and shower.

let's accept this "typical consumption", use the shower times Crossy mentioned (total 40 minutes / 3.5kW heater = 2.333kWh) and the remainder (0.666kWh) for the kitchen and we land up exactly at the figures i posted.

as mentioned, it is not economical to shell out 140k Baht for a heat pump which generates only hot water.

[sezze]

140k , now where did you get this nr from and what kind of installation is this ?

Real figures from a shop in Thailand ( weblink available on request ) .

If in conjunction with aircon ( heat recovery from aircon unit ) , from 15k ( not 150k k ) up .

Separate unit as is pure heat pump .

3.5 kw unit ( reminder heatpump draws 3.5kw , gives back to you 10kw !! ) . 49000 baht .

The 2nd unit is just not usefull or do you need 10kw water heater 24h a day ? ( more small resort facility ) .

The 1st unit is plentyfull big enough for a normal family , but you need a aircon as it draws it's heat from there .

This is without install , but even with aircon included etc , it would be hard to push it above to 50k mark ( as unit + aircon + install ) .

[Naam]

140k , now where did you get this nr from and what kind of installation is this ?

The installation costs are really high (around THB 140'000) - about the same as a sophisticated solar water heater. I am still very satisfied and convinced of my heat pump!

[Naam]

The 1st unit is plentyfull big enough for a normal family , but you need a aircon as it draws it's heat from there.

please define "plentyful big enough", "normal family", "size of aircon" and "running time of aircon". what you quoted, referring to the first unit, are the usual wishi-washi slogans without tangible facts which ones gets from local companies.

by the way, if not planned at construction phase installation of a heat pump generating hot water to be used is extremely difficult and expensive if no central hot water boiler for the bathrooms and kitchen exists which requires just two pipes and a pump. if instant water heaters exist then additional hot water pipes to all points of use have to be installed, meaning hacking up walls and floors.

[Naam]

3.5 kw unit ( reminder heatpump draws 3.5kw , gives back to you 10kw !! )

as mentioned before that's one of the "wishi-washi" statements you get from local companies who either posses a wealth of no idea or are misleading the customer.

the energy consumption is a fixed value whereas what the heat pump "gives you back" depends mainly on ambient temperature and to a lesser extent on ambient relative humidity.

example: heat pumps (and aircons) in tropical countries are usually rated at an ambient temperature of 32ºC. unfortunately up north in Nakhon Nowhere, where Somchai Pornthip and Jimmy Farang live, the morning temperatures can drop to 10ºC or even lower when Somchai and Jimmy want to have their morning showers, id est then the thermal output of their heat pumps might drop to reach a value which is not more than the equivalent of the electric consumption.

[sezze]

A heatpump with a good layout performance has a 3 to 1 ratio . This is known as a fact and if you do a search on it you will know that this is an actual figure . 3.5kw engine makes 10kw output is the statement , and the website stated 10.800 or something like that . From what i know and from all the facts a 10kw output can be perfectly accomplished . 10kw output is like having a 10kw water heater on as long as you keep it running . Not 10 min , but 24/7 if you want to ( using 3.5kw per h ) .

How many water do you want to heat up . 10kw of heating power does heat a shitload of water a day , stating way to big for a normal family . Normal family 4 person 2 showers a person a day each 10 min is ... 80min of water consumption . 10kw water heater does burn your skin , no doubt about it . Stating that this unit is way to large for a normal family Unless you use it to heat 200l water in 1 hour and put it off for the rest of the time , but that would be a avbsolute waist for the unit IMHO .

This is the pdf from the units for recovery from aircon ( waste heat recovery ) .

http://www.ajenergy2...706165012_u.pdf and is big enough for all normal families .

True , i did stated normal families since i consider up to 6 person a normal family , with normal bathing habbits . If you are with 2 person and like to use 6 bathtubs of steaming hot water , you are not categorised as a normal household . Normal means average , 2 to 6 people households each taking 2 showers a day for 10 mins is pretty normal .

You are right , the output from a heatpump changes for the temp in which it has to exchange its heat and it can even drop to 0 when having the wrong conditions and i do know the temp drops in the nighttime over in Isaan and north Thailand ( it get's mighty cold in the morning hours ) .

Edited May 21, 2011 by sezze

[Naam]

A heatpump with a good layout performance has a 3 to 1 ratio . This is known as a fact and if you do a search on it you will know that this is an actual figure.

this ratio applies based on certain prevailing factors. if these factors are "benign" the output input ratio can be as high as 4.5 -

however, a heat pump's efficiency can go down to zero or even into the minus range if the temperature of the medium (from which heat is "pumped") is too low. period!

by the way, i don't need to search for certain laws of physics because i studied them.