Bro'S Before Hoe'S

[lingyaiyai]

...... I love the life I have I don't need a new hobby because it is enough just to be who I am.

Looks like you've got a new hobby with this thread which seems to be a frenetic attempt to justify 20 years of navel gazing.

[trisailer]

"Read my post about western men being marginalized and restricted access to sex"

This might just be the most outrageous thing I've ever heard. Are you saying that the solution is for women to submit to unrestricted sex from men?

Actually you raised a important issue without even knowing it. It has to do with mens love hate relationship with women. Men have a powerful biological need for sex and many men hate women for the power that they have over who their going to give it to. This frustration that men experience is the reason behind all the sexual violence perpetrated by men. The irony is that if men were not so lazy they would just learn how to get sex with charm and humor and intelligence. Women are pretty easy once you learn a few tricks. You might have some serious issues if you think that answer to your sexual frustration is to force women into bondage. Show me a man with a sexual addiction and I'll show you a man who hates women.

The fastest growing segment of the porn industry is women downloading porn and getting themselves off. If this trend continues they won't need us anymore.

If there is "genetic drift" it is toward less violence not more. Read a little history The level of violence that humans were exposed to was infinitely greater than it is today.

[bobbin]

"Read my post about western men being marginalized and restricted access to sex"

This might just be the most outrageous thing I've ever heard. Are you saying that the solution is for women to submit to unrestricted sex from men?

If there is "genetic drift" it is toward less violence not more. Read a little history The level of violence that humans were exposed to was infinitely greater than it is today.

The answer to your question, of course, is ....yes!

Your last point is historically accurate.

But let's get back to the "tricks". I'm always willing to learn....

[sarahsbloke]

"Read my post about western men being marginalized and restricted access to sex"

This might just be the most outrageous thing I've ever heard. Are you saying that the solution is for women to submit to unrestricted sex from men?

Lucky I didn't say that then, you did.

In the west,

I allowed a woman to control my access to sex for 30 years, my former wife being the woman.

She would not allow me sex when I wanted, my needs were irrelevant to her, about once a month if she were in a good mood and I were a perfect husband, it was made quite clear if I dared look for sex elsewhere I would lose wife, home, children.

As a result I was unhappy and frustrated for 30 years. In the end she decided she didn't want sex at all, at least not from me.

For some reason this behavior in women is not considered mental cruelty, in the west it's all about womens wants, nobody cares what a man wants.

In Thailand,

I now have a new wife, she does not control my access to sex.

As my wife, she always gets first refusal, if she refuses there are plenty of karaoke bars where I can have have a girl for 300bht in the back room. Strangely enough, my wife has never refused, as she knows the choices and is damned sure she doesn't want me visiting a 20YO girl in a bar. She has not got the option to control my access to sex or to punish me via loss of my financial assets.

Result in Thailand is I am happy, satisfied and have no need for a group wank discussion with a bunch of other sexually frustrated men.

Edited May 22, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[rick75]

Trisailor, How old are you ?, perhaps I am lucky enough to fit into the age bracket where a good thrashing served Me well but I grew up in a loving house, so while I got smacked I knew I deserved it, my parents stuck together as a result of love and not because they had to as there parents did, pretty much all friends came from traditional households, none of my friends needed to be in a Mens group to sort stuff out, maybe I was lucky I grew up in the scouting movement so I learnt how to deal with who I am and where I fit into the world, I still have life long friends I met in scouts.

You see, while I see plenty of men who are f**ked up..... there are plenty in Thailand, I don't have anything to do with them, why should I ? they are on there own journey and I don't need to get caught up in there crap and be bought down by it. I can't solve the worlds issues, I have enough of my own just getting buy in life, buying a house, running a business and making time for friends and family.

I am glad you started the thread, its at least not a topic about sinsod or how my thai wife stole eevrything I own......but dude you gotta be honest if you had your time over you would leave out the mastabation stuff would'nt you.

[nycboy57]

Very Brave topic, and very open and honest sharing, after I read it I thought to open up and share about my experience with a mens workshop that was very empowering and helpful. However I just had a feeling that this topic would bring up allot of fear and anxiety in allot of people that seem to

answer these threads and I felt like you had to be a real man to risk the abuse and ridicule that you would get here. I read a few responses and I take my hat off to you for writing this and I hope you have not been beaten up too much by what has been responded to . I hope someone was positive to

you, I can not read any

more of what was negative. Good luck and keep being strong and an example to the rest of us about honesty and caring for others and risking looking bad in favor of doing the next right thing. I now expect to be attacked and abused as in the past. Cheers to all.

[yaangcome]

Thanks very much I thought my life was bloody fantastic, great wife three great kids. Now Im totally fuc#*d up. Better give lifeline a quick call. AHHHHHHH AHHHHHH. Help Meeeeee.

[trisailer]

Let me see if I understand you. You stayed in a unhappy marriage for 30 years with a wife how was mentally cruel to you and your solution is to come to Thailand and be mentally cruel to a Thai women who is essentially a captive.

I don't get how you can be happy married to a women who you seem comfortable with lying and cheating on and who has no options. Sounds like you have a recipe for disaster to me. Your current situation speaks volumes about why your 30 year marriage was terrible.

You don't have a marriage. You have a employee or maybe a sex slave.

[PepeLePew]

Get over it, get on with it.

I'm sorry but to me the idea of needing a mens group to come to terms with your feelings is just another example of the feminisation of man. If it works for you all power to you but placing it in the domain of 'real men' whilst ignoring the obvious conclusion that real men cut down trees and shoot bears is just crazy!

[sarahsbloke]

Let me see if I understand you. You stayed in a unhappy marriage for 30 years with a wife how was mentally cruel to you and your solution is to come to Thailand and be mentally cruel to a Thai women who is essentially a captive.

I don't get how you can be happy married to a women who you seem comfortable with lying and cheating on and who has no options. Sounds like you have a recipe for disaster to me. Your current situation speaks volumes about why your 30 year marriage was terrible.

You don't have a marriage. You have a employee or maybe a sex slave.

An unhappy marriage is a feature of most western mens relationships with a western woman IMHO.

How am I being mentally cruel to anyone?

Sex is a natural bodily function that everyone should be able to enjoy.

I never lie or cheat, why would I do that?

I can't see you doing very well in a discussion group, you seem to make stories up about what other people say.

My wife has many options, she is very pretty, she may leave at any time if she is dissatisfied, no hard feelings from me.

Seems to me you want to squeeze every men into your sad version of how we should behave.

The things that do puzzle my wife are I never beat her or try to have sex with her teenage daughter, she tells me that would be perfectly normal if she had a relationship with a Thai man!

Are you in a relationship with a woman, ladyboy or man?

Your views on sex and men are really strange.

Edited May 22, 2011 by sarahsbloke

[trisailer]

"good thrashing served Me well but I grew up in a loving house, so while I got smacked I knew I deserved"

So, did you smack your children?

I'm 58 and many of the boys in my neighborhood were beaten. The result is that 3 of the fathers killed themselves as have 4 of my friends. My oldest brother who suffered the bulk of the abuse suffered a brain injury which left him incapable of managing his life. Another brother is a alcoholic and my youngest brother started sniffing glue at 8 years old and is now a 50 year old street kid. My father told my mother to go make him a sandwich, and then blew his brains all over the wall. All of my childhood friends who suffered abuse have had difficulty managing their lives. It confirms the science.

Actually I'm glad I left the masturbation comment in. It generated the exact kinds of comments that is the basis of the reason that men would rather kill themselves than talk about whatever issues are troubling them.

[bobbin]

Let me see if I understand you. You stayed in a unhappy marriage for 30 years with a wife how was mentally cruel to you and your solution is to come to Thailand and be mentally cruel to a Thai women who is essentially a captive.

I don't get how you can be happy married to a women who you seem comfortable with lying and cheating on and who has no options. Sounds like you have a recipe for disaster to me. Your current situation speaks volumes about why your 30 year marriage was terrible.

You don't have a marriage. You have a employee or maybe a sex slave.

Oh Oh. Seems like I might have given you a bit too much credit...

You are a self-hating male and want all to prostrate before the Almighty Vulva.

[rick75]

"good thrashing served Me well but I grew up in a loving house, so while I got smacked I knew I deserved"

So, did you smack your children?

I'm 58 and many of the boys in my neighborhood were beaten. The result is that 3 of the fathers killed themselves as have 4 of my friends. My oldest brother who suffered the bulk of the abuse suffered a brain injury which left him incapable of managing his life. Another brother is a alcoholic and my youngest brother started sniffing glue at 8 years old and is now a 50 year old street kid. My father told my mother to go make him a sandwich, and then blew his brains all over the wall. All of my childhood friends who suffered abuse have had difficulty managing their lives. It confirms the science.

Actually I'm glad I left the masturbation comment in. It generated the exact kinds of comments that is the basis of the reason that men would rather kill themselves than talk about whatever issues are troubling them.

I am 35 years old, I don't have children...nor do I want any.

You come from a really f**ked up background, I don't and I would take a guess that most don't have that sort of background, so while you feel the need to exercise your demons most of us don't have the demons you have.

Like I said earlier you are judging the world and all men in based on what you have now admited is a really tainted view of the world.

[dressedingreen]

The expression 'real men', and the way it is generally used against men who don't conform to 'the norm', encapsulates the deep seated problems most men face. And it happens in all cultures. This has nothing to do with being gay, or not. It has nothing to do with one's capability to perform the daily requirements of the male of the species. It's to do with the myth of male power, and the way it is used by the resourceful few who wield the kind of financial clout that determines the direction in which our societies move.

I don't have the time to do this subject justice today. But kudos to the OP for bringing this up. You're bound to get flak in here. It goes with the territory. And by the response, you've stirred up a welcomed hornets nest. To the posters who have responded with derision, I can only say, 'methinks they do protest too much'. Behind the derisory remarks lies a can of worms the size of several ... ... well, football fields!

I spent 12 years as part of a mens' network in the UK. I learned a lot. And I mean a LOT about myself. It gave me a level of self understanding I'd never achieved among 'real men'. Maleness can be eternally unforgiving of those who do not conform to its sense of normality, however convoluted that may be. I made deeper, more understanding friendships in that 12 years than I had ever achieved prior to becoming a part of that network. There is a huge amount of fear among men, and between them. It manifests itself in this subject, and on this forum, in the way of defensiveness, and an inability to see beyond the prejudicial barriers that generally keep men apart, from understanding themselves and other men.

The amount of responders, so far, suggests a need exists among many to address the kinds of problems that lie at the heart of the subject. The fact that some will heckle, guffaw and deride is only to be expected.

I'll watch with interest to see if it evolves.

DIG

[sarahsbloke]

All of my childhood friends who suffered abuse have had difficulty managing their lives. It confirms the science.

......

Actually I'm glad I left the masturbation comment in. It generated the exact kinds of comments that is the basis of the reason that men would rather kill themselves than talk about whatever issues are troubling them.

You come across as WEAK.

You are a weak man, who comes by your own admission, from a family of weak men.

I'm sure loads of other weak men will agree with you, that's what weak men do.

Some people describe weak man as a 'pansy'.

You have totally been convinced by the feminist BS to try and subdue and control men.

Seems you have never had a relationship with a Thai lady, just as well, they have little mercy for the weak.

[krangeek]

Before I came to Thailand I was fortunate to have been a member of a mens group of 12 men who were interested in examing what it means to be a man and how to balance ourselves to achieve a happy life

I'm so sorry if my comment sounds discriminatory in any way, but I have to ask:

Are you American??

does sound american

mmmmmm... Is Boy George and Elton John American?

Yes. But are the members of Iron John http://tinyurl.com/3jaxyky? which, I believe, and please do correct me if I'm wrong, sparked this topic. Or are they merely oversensitive naval gazing types, the antithesis of 'The Real Man' LOL, much as The Barbie type er, women are to 'real women'. But a lot of members of this forum seem to like the barbie types, hence their obsession with Hello Kitty t-shirt wearing, pouty Thai bar girls.

Edited May 22, 2011 by krangeek

[onionluke]

Is this what all the fuss is about ?

[trisailer]

"In Thailand,

I now have a new wife, she does not control my access to sex.

As my wife, she always gets first refusal, if she refuses there are plenty of karaoke bars where I can have have a girl for 300bht in the back room. Strangely enough, my wife has never refused, as she knows the choices and is damned sure she doesn't want me visiting a 20YO girl in a bar. She has not got the option to control my access to sex or to punish me via loss of my financial assets.

Why bother get married if all you want is sex?

[Swlh]

American

[krangeek]

"In Thailand,

I now have a new wife, she does not control my access to sex.

As my wife, she always gets first refusal, if she refuses there are plenty of karaoke bars where I can have have a girl for 300bht in the back room. Strangely enough, my wife has never refused, as she knows the choices and is damned sure she doesn't want me visiting a 20YO girl in a bar. She has not got the option to control my access to sex or to punish me via loss of my financial assets.

Why bother get married if all you want is sex?

So let's get this straight - If your wife, for whatever reason, isn't 'in the mood' (I dunno, maybe you're a lousy lover, no foreplay, overly demanding of your 'right' to access to her genitalia as and when you feel like it), you blackmail/threaten her with 'ha! plenty more where you came from'? Nice.

[krangeek]

American

Spot on.

[canuckamuck]

One thing is true.

Bad dads leave real big mess behind.

I am glad my old man is awesome, but I sympathize with those who didn't get the father they deserved.

[krangeek]

"Read my post about western men being marginalized and restricted access to sex"

This might just be the most outrageous thing I've ever heard. Are you saying that the solution is for women to submit to unrestricted sex from men?

Lucky I didn't say that then, you did.

In the west,

I allowed a woman to control my access to sex for 30 years, my former wife being the woman.

She would not allow me sex when I wanted, my needs were irrelevant to her, about once a month if she were in a good mood

Like I said, perhaps you should've learned to be a better lover. The sex always wears off, but because most men just think they can 'jump on' and get it over with. Rather like going to the lav. Just too damned lazy.

[trisailer]

Thanks, dressedingreen

I'm not bothered by the childish comments, I expected them. I've lead business workshops aimed at improving dysfunctional companies and this is the way men typically respond initially. Once they get over the giggles and learn a few things they begin to see the value in it.

One of the most interesting groups I worked with was my own maintenance crew in a paper mill. These guys were Harley riding, hard drinking, fist fighting mens men so you can imagine their initial resistance. What I discovered was that the tougher the man the less homophobic they were and the less they cared what anyone thought. It was one of my most gratifying career accomplishments to teach them how to be a part of the management process through quality circles. After a bit of training they would choose one of them to make a presentation to management and they were exceptional at it.

The topic is about finding our strength as proud honorable men. There is nothing weak about taking an honest inventory of ourselves and correcting the traits that will make us better people. Unlike some I have never had a problem getting laid. I think I said that my first 2 years in Thailand was all about being a happy butterfly. When I met my future wife I was able to recognize quality and now, 5 years into our marriage it is better than I ever imagined.

[RedFxTrade]

"Read my post about western men being marginalized and restricted access to sex"

This might just be the most outrageous thing I've ever heard. Are you saying that the solution is for women to submit to unrestricted sex from men?

Lucky I didn't say that then, you did.

In the west,

I allowed a woman to control my access to sex for 30 years, my former wife being the woman.

She would not allow me sex when I wanted, my needs were irrelevant to her, about once a month if she were in a good mood

Like I said, perhaps you should've learned to be a better lover. The sex always wears off, but because most men just think they can 'jump on' and get it over with. Rather like going to the lav. Just too damned lazy.

Exactly. It is funny and amusing that SarahsBloke has constantly called the OP gay and screwed up, not a real man...yet he goes on to say that he spent 30 years under the thumb of a farang women. To be perfectly honest you need to asking yourself some questions that you appear not to have resolved as you are now seem to exorcising your demons on a poor Thai lady through manipulation and black email. You were not a politician by any chance?

Anyway, you need to be asking yourself, does a man let his sexuality and self worth, his individual freedoms and dignities be taken away from him by his wife, so that she pulls all the strings. Not only that but then allows it to go on for 30 years. You seem to paint a picture that it was your wifes fault, yet it was you who consented and allowed the situation get to the stage where she could manipulate you through your using your children, etc. That for me seems very weak indeed from a masculine, "being a man". Forget even the male/female polarity thing here...You should never give any human being, man or women consent to manipulate you like that, never mind your wife or husband.

Thank goodness I have grasped this stuff the right side of 30.

[mstribling]

It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate.

Im not ridiculing your decision to attend this group to strengthen yourself. Your tribe was weak, and you left it to strengthen your position. Got it.

But your like an alcoholic who sobers up. Now you've found YOUR way, you deem everyone else who hasn't opted for YOUR way, as inferior.

You've attempted to bait us several times with this topic. Some of us, joked and busted your chops, but for the most part ignored you. Now you open a discussion, but won't discuss.

You only want to project your views on us. It's called trolling.

You insist that since you have become feminized that it has made you a better person, and I have no doubt that it has. For you.

Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour you want to demonize someone else (Father). It's your generations and your cultures way.

Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves.

We don't require a group to manufacture our character.

You are just tender, and that is OK. It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

[mario299]

It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate.

Im not ridiculing your decision to attend this group to strengthen yourself. Your tribe was weak, and you left it to strengthen your position. Got it.

But your like an alcoholic who sobers up. Now you've found YOUR way, you deem everyone else who hasn't opted for YOUR way, as inferior.

You've attempted to bait us several times with this topic. Some of us, joked and busted your chops, but for the most part ignored you. Now you open a discussion, but won't discuss.

You only want to project your views on us. It's called trolling.

You insist that since you have become feminized that it has made you a better person, and I have no doubt that it has. For you.

Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour you want to demonize someone else (Father). It's your generations and your cultures way.

Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves.

We don't require a group to manufacture our character.

You are just tender, and that is OK. It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1...and then some.

Well said.

[Honolulu]

One day, about 20 years ago, I get a phone call from the wife of one of my old friends. We had not spoken for a year or 2, don't ask me why. Anyway she is in tears and trying to explain that her husband, my old friend, was alone in a hotel room, somewhere, and at this very moment, sitting on the edge of his bed, with a loaded gun in his hand, trying to work up the guts to pull the trigger.

Now I have been thru some sad and scary shit in my life, more than most, but this was definately a new challenge. She gives me the number and I call him.

Now he is one of the smartest people I have ever met, MENSA material, and I never even went to university, so I am scared to death that I will not be able to help him plot a course around his current situation. My only previous suicide negociating experience was from what I saw on T.V.

Luckily, he was sober, and began to explain that he had just received news from his doctor that he had a medical condition that caused him to uncontrollably shit his pants. while at the same time, he would have to endure frequent and expensive visits to the hospital for the rest of his life, and that he was sure that he would not be able to provide for his family and, instead, become a burden. I agreed that this was pretty bad, and if I were him, I would be thinking about pulling the trigger as well.

But I insisted, that if he would get into his car and drive down for a visit, I would really like to see him once more before he checks out, and mabey squeeze in a round of golf.

He agreed and we hung up.

Long story short, we had one of the best weekends two guys could have together. we got so drunk, playing golf, going to strip bars, and such, stopping every once in a while at the store so he could buy some new undershorts. In the end, everything worked out ok. Since he did not have any insurance that would pay his family in case of suicide, we decide it would be better for him to stick it out, at least until he could pay for his own funeral, as I had no money either.

Anyway, my point is, that I have never felt the urge to bond with another man since that experience. been there done that, it's a little over rated.

Mabey you should try getting a dog.

[meom]

It's our nature. We are wired to defeat other men who are not part of our tribe. (family) If your not part of my family, your competition for resources ie women and food.

Food to survive and women to perpetuate.

Im not ridiculing your decision to attend this group to strengthen yourself. Your tribe was weak, and you left it to strengthen your position. Got it.

But your like an alcoholic who sobers up. Now you've found YOUR way, you deem everyone else who hasn't opted for YOUR way, as inferior.

You've attempted to bait us several times with this topic. Some of us, joked and busted your chops, but for the most part ignored you. Now you open a discussion, but won't discuss.

You only want to project your views on us. It's called trolling.

You insist that since you have become feminized that it has made you a better person, and I have no doubt that it has. For you.

Your trying to solve your problems and in typical academic/liberal behaviour you want to demonize someone else (Father). It's your generations and your cultures way.

Most of us don't suffer from your affliction. Were not troubled about "what" we're supposed to be, because we're to busy being ourselves.

We don't require a group to manufacture our character.

You are just tender, and that is OK. It's not the majority of our definition of "manliness" but doesn't make it wrong. For you.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 +1...and then some.

Well said.

+2

While we’re at any ideas as to a good substitute for Johnson Baby Oil?

The shop has run out and I really not feel like dry wanking so should I opt for olive oil, Vaseline or one of those Durex massage oils such as Play or Tingle?

Ofcourse nothing beats the Mrs spit but I feel a long session coming up and she usually gets a dry mouth after ten minutes or so.

[itishothere]

After several pages, and days of reading, I think I see where the OP is coming from. Unfortunately it has taken me this long to see just how bad his childhood environment was. It was very bad. Violence in his family, and neighbourhood. Suicides, deaths. A lot of pain physically and emotionally.

I am not sure why it has taken me this long to understand things. Communication seems to be the key for the OP. So either he isn't that good at it, or I am a bad reader. In my defence there has been an awful lot of 'noise' in this thread which has distracted me!

He is portraying the view that what he experienced as a child is common amongst many men. (Or the results of which - personality wise - are common) I would disagree with that view. Such experiences are rare, and I am sure someone can prove this with statistics. I did not suffer at the hands of a male - or female - in my family.Most people have a bog-standard upbringing. I feel sure that I did. I don't have any issues now, and believe I can and do communicate well with both sexes. Being straight or gay has nothing to do with that. Being brought up normally has everything to do with it. Being abused is not normal, and it is no surprise this causes problems. The OPs situation was far from normal in my view. I am not surprised that it took group discussions and openness to see that his life did not start out the same way as most others.

Another tenet seems to be that this world is all f#cked up by men. (And therefore that if we men communicated better, the world would be a better place). Again I disagree, I know plenty of women capable of mucking things up both in the business and political world, and perhaps more importantly in the family, which is where the OPs problems seemed to start. I don't think men can take all the blame. Besides, isn't it kind of patronising to infer women are not that important?

I take my hat off to the OP for being happy with his life; I am happy with mine. But I do think that his history is unusual. Most people do not go through what he did.. Most people are pretty OK.

Edited May 22, 2011 by itishothere