ManU In Decline?

[SantiSuk]

Next up Blanc? Cantona? Bruce? Hughes?

reckon the most likely ferguson ex-player to take over from him is shaping up to be solskjaer. bruce, hughes, keane, mcleish. . .loads of ferguson's supposed proteges have flattered to deceive.

Nah - there may be a lot of sentimentality and tradition at the club level, but this is a major PLC. No way the money men would go for an old boy over the very best experienced manager that money can buy. Mourinho is a dead cert.

[carmine]

Next up Blanc? Cantona? Bruce? Hughes?

reckon the most likely ferguson ex-player to take over from him is shaping up to be solskjaer. bruce, hughes, keane, mcleish. . .loads of ferguson's supposed proteges have flattered to deceive.

Nah - there may be a lot of sentimentality and tradition at the club level, but this is a major PLC. No way the money men would go for an old boy over the very best experienced manager that money can buy. Mourinho is a dead cert.

Mourinho will go to City when Roberta Mancini is sacked at the end of the season.

City will pay him outrageous sums of maney, huge transfer kitty and neither he or his ego will hang around for ferguson to retire...which doesn't seem on the red nosed agenda.

Like i said, jurgen Klopp. i reckon he would be very good

[SantiSuk]

Not at

Hope you didn't spend too much time on that Sumrit

Not at all mrbojangles . A few weeks ago, out of curiosity, a friend (a Liverpool supporter) and I were comparing Man U's record over the twenty life of the premiership and Liverpool's twenty year record during the seventies and eighties (which at that time had been recognized as the best ever record for an English club). Man U's record was superior so we also looked at the records of other top clubs of each era to see which period was more consistent. The top four in the premiership is generally better than the top four from Liverpool's era.

It took ten minutes to compare the last seven years , but makes interesting reading doesn't it. Would you rather have a club with a manageable debt and the best manager in the world or a club with a 'loadsa money owner' but an also ran for a manager?

Unless you are a Chartered Accountant, a football fan would rather have a team that wins things!!

Especially if you have gone years without.

I'm one of them prawn sandwich bean-counters (ex) but I still want my team to win things!

I rail against the Arsenal financial prudence approach - they could always have afforded the additional 10 to 20 mil quid that could have bought a world class player at the time when it would have made a difference (ie when Fab left) to stop the rot of wantaways.

[SantiSuk]

Next up Blanc? Cantona? Bruce? Hughes?

reckon the most likely ferguson ex-player to take over from him is shaping up to be solskjaer. bruce, hughes, keane, mcleish. . .loads of ferguson's supposed proteges have flattered to deceive.

Nah - there may be a lot of sentimentality and tradition at the club level, but this is a major PLC. No way the money men would go for an old boy over the very best experienced manager that money can buy. Mourinho is a dead cert.

Mourinho will go to City when Roberta Mancini is sacked at the end of the season.

City will pay him outrageous sums of maney, huge transfer kitty and neither he or his ego will hang around for ferguson to retire...which doesn't seem on the red nosed agenda.

Like i said, jurgen Klopp. i reckon he would be very good

Agreed Klopp is excellent ... and a genuinely fun guy with a great sense of humour. He would change the British WW-inspired perception of Germans as dour humourless automatons, which Northern Germans at least are certainly not.

I rather hoped Arsenal might get him when Wenger fails to get the CL spot later this season and half the remaining team has put in transfer requests at the end of the season.

[carmine]

Not at

Hope you didn't spend too much time on that Sumrit

Not at all mrbojangles . A few weeks ago, out of curiosity, a friend (a Liverpool supporter) and I were comparing Man U's record over the twenty life of the premiership and Liverpool's twenty year record during the seventies and eighties (which at that time had been recognized as the best ever record for an English club). Man U's record was superior so we also looked at the records of other top clubs of each era to see which period was more consistent. The top four in the premiership is generally better than the top four from Liverpool's era.

It took ten minutes to compare the last seven years , but makes interesting reading doesn't it. Would you rather have a club with a manageable debt and the best manager in the world or a club with a 'loadsa money owner' but an also ran for a manager?

Unless you are a Chartered Accountant, a football fan would rather have a team that wins things!!

Especially if you have gone years without.

I'm one of them prawn sandwich bean-counters (ex) but I still want my team to win things!

I rail against the Arsenal financial prudence approach - they could always have afforded the additional 10 to 20 mil quid that could have bought a world class player at the time when it would have made a difference (ie when Fab left) to stop the rot of wantaways.

Well you would rail against it wouldn't you. Like i said before jack, if you are happy with the way you won the league thats fine, good luck to you, but don't knock the clubs that don't just throw millions at any percieved weakness in their team because you sound stupid and rather insecure in the merits of your title win.

Thats exactly how it comes across btw, insecurity in the way you "won' the title. i do apologise if i'm wrong ofcourse

[JacknDanny]

carmine, I know you are a football fan. We have differences of opinion of course, but you are completely wrong in trying to translate what I am saying and thinking.

Having been a Man City fan all my life, having won the FA cup when I was 8yrs old, nothing of note since, having suffered the depths of 3rd tier football, whilst teams around are spending millions whilst City were always the 'nearly guys' at best.

All of a sudden we get took over by people who not only invest in the football team, but also invest in the community in a HUGE way. In 2 yrs we win the 2 biggest trophies in English football. Of course I am ecstatic, and I am sure you would be too!!

My point was, that as a football fan, winning a trophy is far more important than balancing the books.... I am not an Accountant, I am looking at it purely from a football fans perspective.

I have never belittled clubs who cannot afford what we now can, because City have been in that position for most of my life!!

I have had a pop at your chairman, because I believe for the sake of a couple of million quid, which WAS affordable, he has cost your team probable CL football next year.

Likewise I agree with SantiSuk. Arsenal have a great track record of financial well being, but had they invested an extra 20 or 30 million, which they could have afforded, they would have won more than they have over the last few years.

So my question to you carmine is this................ If some rich benefactor came and bought your club, and put millions into it, would you complain and say it wasnt right, and you didnt want it? And that you prefer to let Levy have it his way?

[BangrakBob]

I know I'm following off topic point here but I have to say I am friends with and know a lot of City fans and they are genuine football fans, because I've sat with them watching their team faultier again and again, while red mates and their families got to rub it in their face for many years. What I notice back then was the good nature of their supporters, down to earth and understood how sh*te they were for so many years but took it on the chin. You can understand them enjoying their moment now

Back to topic, I don't think it matters who takes over from SAF, but I pretty much reckon they are doomed. 26 years under arguably the best ever, no one can fill those shoes. I don't mean the team are doomed, the manager will struggle with that kind of pressure, anyone would. If the debt keeps rising and the Glazers stop opening their wallets it will be interesting to see what evolves.

[nev]

I know I'm following off topic point here but I have to say I am friends with and know a lot of City fans and they are genuine football fans, because I've sat with them watching their team faultier again and again, while red mates and their families got to rub it in their face for many years. What I notice back then was the good nature of their supporters, down to earth and understood how sh*te they were for so many years but took it on the chin. You can understand them enjoying their moment now

Back to topic, I don't think it matters who takes over from SAF, but I pretty much reckon they are doomed. 26 years under arguably the best ever, no one can fill those shoes. I don't mean the team are doomed, the manager will struggle with that kind of pressure, anyone would. If the debt keeps rising and the Glazers stop opening their wallets it will be interesting to see what evolves.

The debt has been coming down and what we owe is very manageable for a club the size of united, the glazers have opened there wallets when needed, so new manage will get funds.

I am not defending the Glazers i want the leaches out just stating facts.

As for city fans it meant more to them united not wining than city wining and it still hasn't changed. hence jack coming on here gloating after united have lost, won 13 lost 3 this season in europe and the league.

[BangrakBob]

I know I'm following off topic point here but I have to say I am friends with and know a lot of City fans and they are genuine football fans, because I've sat with them watching their team faultier again and again, while red mates and their families got to rub it in their face for many years. What I notice back then was the good nature of their supporters, down to earth and understood how sh*te they were for so many years but took it on the chin. You can understand them enjoying their moment now

Back to topic, I don't think it matters who takes over from SAF, but I pretty much reckon they are doomed. 26 years under arguably the best ever, no one can fill those shoes. I don't mean the team are doomed, the manager will struggle with that kind of pressure, anyone would. If the debt keeps rising and the Glazers stop opening their wallets it will be interesting to see what evolves.

The debt has been coming down and what we owe is very manageable for a club the size of united, the glazers have opened there wallets when needed, so new manage will get funds.

I am not defending the Glazers i want the leaches out just stating facts.

As for city fans it meant more to them united not wining than city wining and it still hasn't changed. hence jack coming on here gloating after united have lost, won 13 lost 3 this season in europe and the league.

fair points

[mrtoad]

Always the same lot on this thread (Spuds and Mankini Shieky), but I guess it's kept them amused. Considering it started around 7 years ago, so the ecline hasn't been to bad considering some of the trophies won in that time.

[carmine]

carmine, I know you are a football fan. We have differences of opinion of course, but you are completely wrong in trying to translate what I am saying and thinking.

Having been a Man City fan all my life, having won the FA cup when I was 8yrs old, nothing of note since, having suffered the depths of 3rd tier football, whilst teams around are spending millions whilst City were always the 'nearly guys' at best.

All of a sudden we get took over by people who not only invest in the football team, but also invest in the community in a HUGE way. In 2 yrs we win the 2 biggest trophies in English football. Of course I am ecstatic, and I am sure you would be too!!

My point was, that as a football fan, winning a trophy is far more important than balancing the books.... I am not an Accountant, I am looking at it purely from a football fans perspective.

I have never belittled clubs who cannot afford what we now can, because City have been in that position for most of my life!!

I have had a pop at your chairman, because I believe for the sake of a couple of million quid, which WAS affordable, he has cost your team probable CL football next year.

Likewise I agree with SantiSuk. Arsenal have a great track record of financial well being, but had they invested an extra 20 or 30 million, which they could have afforded, they would have won more than they have over the last few years.

So my question to you carmine is this................ If some rich benefactor came and bought your club, and put millions into it, would you complain and say it wasnt right, and you didnt want it? And that you prefer to let Levy have it his way?

I'd have mixed feelings to be honest. I truthfully would prefer us just as we are if only Levy would understand that he does need to splash the cash for top quality.ie; Moutinho/ Leandro Damiao. That would mean using the Modric cash plus another 15m which he absolutely should have done.

What it doesn't mean is hemorrhage money like City and Chelsea. Pay absurdly high wages that are crippling the sport. Worse still to use your financial muscle to stop other teams buying a player you don't want them to have. Thats all i'm saying and i think i'm being reasonable on this.

[carmine]

Always the same lot on this thread (Spuds and Mankini Shieky), but I guess it's kept them amused. Considering it started around 7 years ago, so the ecline hasn't been to bad considering some of the trophies won in that time.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

[mrtoad]

Always the same lot on this thread (Spuds and Mankini Shieky), but I guess it's kept them amused. Considering it started around 7 years ago, so the ecline hasn't been to bad considering some of the trophies won in that time.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

OINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNKKKKK

[mrbojangles]

Back to topic, I don't think it matters who takes over from SAF, but I pretty much reckon they are doomed. 26 years under arguably the best ever, no one can fill those shoes. I don't mean the team are doomed, the manager will struggle with that kind of pressure, anyone would.

Totally agree. There is nobody on this planet who can demand the respect Fergie does (including Mourinho) and who can get 150% out of his players week in, week out. With the current team, I honestly could only see a mid table finish without him.

[smokie36]

carmine, I know you are a football fan. We have differences of opinion of course, but you are completely wrong in trying to translate what I am saying and thinking.

Having been a Man City fan all my life, having won the FA cup when I was 8yrs old, nothing of note since, having suffered the depths of 3rd tier football, whilst teams around are spending millions whilst City were always the 'nearly guys' at best.

All of a sudden we get took over by people who not only invest in the football team, but also invest in the community in a HUGE way. In 2 yrs we win the 2 biggest trophies in English football. Of course I am ecstatic, and I am sure you would be too!!

My point was, that as a football fan, winning a trophy is far more important than balancing the books.... I am not an Accountant, I am looking at it purely from a football fans perspective.

I have never belittled clubs who cannot afford what we now can, because City have been in that position for most of my life!!

I have had a pop at your chairman, because I believe for the sake of a couple of million quid, which WAS affordable, he has cost your team probable CL football next year.

Likewise I agree with SantiSuk. Arsenal have a great track record of financial well being, but had they invested an extra 20 or 30 million, which they could have afforded, they would have won more than they have over the last few years.

So my question to you carmine is this................ If some rich benefactor came and bought your club, and put millions into it, would you complain and say it wasnt right, and you didnt want it? And that you prefer to let Levy have it his way?

I'd have mixed feelings to be honest. I truthfully would prefer us just as we are if only Levy would understand that he does need to splash the cash for top quality.ie; Moutinho/ Leandro Damiao. That would mean using the Modric cash plus another 15m which he absolutely should have done.

What it doesn't mean is hemorrhage money like City and Chelsea. Pay absurdly high wages that are crippling the sport. Worse still to use your financial muscle to stop other teams buying a player you don't want them to have. Thats all i'm saying and i think i'm being reasonable on this.

Yeah I'd like to see maybe three new faces of quality...in order to bring out the quality of the team we already have....and compete better regards quality on the bench.

At the moment it is always going to be an uphill struggle....but no £500m spent in a window meaning the team and indeed club is virtually unrecognisable.

[MrRed]

Back to topic, I don't think it matters who takes over from SAF, but I pretty much reckon they are doomed. 26 years under arguably the best ever, no one can fill those shoes. I don't mean the team are doomed, the manager will struggle with that kind of pressure, anyone would.

Totally agree. There is nobody on this planet who can demand the respect Fergie does (including Mourinho) and who can get 150% out of his players week in, week out. With the current team, I honestly could only see a mid table finish without him.

After his team selections just lately maybe we could be doing better with a fresh outlook There you go i have said it!

[carmine]

Back to topic, I don't think it matters who takes over from SAF, but I pretty much reckon they are doomed. 26 years under arguably the best ever, no one can fill those shoes. I don't mean the team are doomed, the manager will struggle with that kind of pressure, anyone would.

Totally agree. There is nobody on this planet who can demand the respect Fergie does (including Mourinho) and who can get 150% out of his players week in, week out. With the current team, I honestly could only see a mid table finish without him.

After his team selections just lately maybe we could be doing better with a fresh outlook There you go i have said it!

Might i remind you that with an injury ravaged defense. May i also remind you where you currently reside in the league table despite those injuries and although Southampton reserves could have topped your CL group you are nonetheless about to go through to the knockout stage.

Unbelievable!

[MrRed]

Back to topic, I don't think it matters who takes over from SAF, but I pretty much reckon they are doomed. 26 years under arguably the best ever, no one can fill those shoes. I don't mean the team are doomed, the manager will struggle with that kind of pressure, anyone would.

Totally agree. There is nobody on this planet who can demand the respect Fergie does (including Mourinho) and who can get 150% out of his players week in, week out. With the current team, I honestly could only see a mid table finish without him.

After his team selections just lately maybe we could be doing better with a fresh outlook There you go i have said it!

Might i remind you that with an injury ravaged defense. May i also remind you where you currently reside in the league table despite those injuries and although Southampton reserves could have topped your CL group you are nonetheless about to go through to the knockout stage.

Unbelievable!

We are through already mate! Just that team selection at Norwich was wrong.

[sumrit]

Would you rather have a club with a manageable debt and the best manager in the world or a club with a 'loadsa money owner' but an also ran for a manager?

With regards to your debt. I think all United fans would agree that your owners are milking you for all they can get.

What does make me angry is that the Glazers are buying Man U with money generated by the club and not their own money.

The debt hasn't built up from bad or irresponsible management, it's purely down to owners being allowed to borrow money to buy the club and pass their debt onto it. Man U have always been a well run and profitable club that has not gone into massive debt (unlike Leeds and Portsmouth for example) to back the manager.

The 'day to day' running of the club is even more profitable now than it was before because of the increased revenue generated since the Glazers took over, and that increased income is more than enough to service and reduce the debt while still giving the manager the funds to compete in the transfer market. Plus, because that money is generated wholly by Man U and not donated by a sugar daddy, we can carry on spending and won't be affected by UAFA's fair play rules.

Time will tell though. As the debt reduces further and eventually disappears we'll find out whether that money goes directly into the Glazer's pockets or back into the club.

With regards to your "best manager in the world". That is coming to an end.

We know that's what you're all waiting for, in the hope you might be able to compete then. But just one thought, when SAF retires there'll be a new 'best manager in the world' and just maybe he'll be the new manager at Man U

With regards to our "loadsa money owners". They have shown that they are in it for the long run and are not milking us. We have also won more in their short reign than we have won during my whole life. I'm struggling to see any negatives on that front.

There are no negatives are there?

I was merely pointing out that, in spite of this thread running for seven years now, not only have we not been in decline, we have continued to be the most consistent and the best during that time .In fact our record over that seven year period is the best any club has achieved in the history of English football and the stats were just a comparison with the nearest two.

If Man City and Chelsea spending billions of their sugar daddy's money to try to hang on to the shirt tales of what we've achieved by ability makes you happy and content then SMILE and laugh all the way to their Bank .

[carmine]

You have achieved through ability and a great manager but please don't forget the milliond spent on world class players. The list is endless and the era of your golden age of homegrown talent was over an aweful long time ago.

[carmine]

Back to topic, I don't think it matters who takes over from SAF, but I pretty much reckon they are doomed. 26 years under arguably the best ever, no one can fill those shoes. I don't mean the team are doomed, the manager will struggle with that kind of pressure, anyone would.

Totally agree. There is nobody on this planet who can demand the respect Fergie does (including Mourinho) and who can get 150% out of his players week in, week out. With the current team, I honestly could only see a mid table finish without him.

Unless ofcourse they can persuade Fat Sam Alladyce to leave Pikey Park and takeover the reigns!

[redrus]

You have achieved through ability and a great manager but please don't forget the milliond spent on world class players. The list is endless and the era of your golden age of homegrown talent was over an aweful long time ago.

Was it.......?

Is the list really endless..? 1 to 3 at tops players per year, not always a household name either does not constitute evidence of that bold statement.

Cantona left an awful long time ago too, but we still keep producing talent, Cleverley, Wellbeck, the Da-Silvas, Jesse Lingard for starters and, as already stated we are still the most consistent and only lost last year by the slimmest of margins. Again though, its November, I expect this thread to die again over the next month, will it come back again in May when Fergie retires and Guardiola takes the reigns...?

We'll see.....

redrus

[nev]

You have achieved through ability and a great manager but please don't forget the milliond spent on world class players. The list is endless and the era of your golden age of homegrown talent was over an aweful long time ago.

Mate since 2003 united have spent 2000 quid more than spurs and how many tittles have we won compared with your lot, chelsea city and liverpool have all spent more than united.

http://transferleagu...03-to-date.html

Since inception of premier league we have still been out spent by those 3, and spurs not far behind.

http://transferleagu...2-to-today.html

So shows what a great job fergie has done combining home grown talent, buying young and up and coming talent and a few big name players.

As for home grown talent over maybe you are right, fletcher wellbeck evans cleverley are home grown regulars right now, out of the top teams doubt many other teams have more than 4.

[sumrit]

You have achieved through ability and a great manager but please don't forget the milliond spent on world class players. The list is endless and the era of your golden age of homegrown talent was over an awful long time ago.

Of course we don't forget the money we spend on top players such as Rooney, Ferdinand, Van Persie, etc, etc..........plus the expensive mistakes we've made like Veron. We also find the odd bargain like Vidic and Ronaldo occasionally plus bring through the likes of Cleverley and Welbeck (the jury's still out on him though) as well. Even Evans, although just an average squad player at Man U would be first choice at many a premier league club.

Yes we've probably spent bigger than most on some players in the past but, like Arsenal under Wenger and Liverpool of the seventies and eighties, we also buy young players with potential (such as Phil Jones and Nick Powell) that can be developed in the United way. The biggest difference though is that the club generates every single penny it spends through it's own on and off field activities. We don't rely on anybody else for funding in any way, shape or form.

Most other clubs (especially when they get a new owner) rely on their owners to invest their own money on new players etc.

[sumrit]

when Fergie retires and Guardiola takes the reigns...?

redrus

Oh I do hope so. I think he's the one manager that could carry on from Ferguson without feeling inferior and would continue playing the style of football we want to see.

[redrus]

when Fergie retires and Guardiola takes the reigns...?

redrus

Oh I do hope so. I think he's the one manager that could carry on from Ferguson without feeling inferior and would continue playing the style of football we want to see.

I reckon its a done deal, there is no speculation from the media anymore, whispers around OT fan mags support this.

Nothings ever 100% but, no one else fits the bill for me. They were both recently absent from a managers meeting in Europe, Jose Morinho called Fergie, he was in New York, meeting Pep, where he lives....!! http://www.caughtoffside.com/2012/09/07/sir-alex-ferguson-in-new-york-to-meet-next-man-united-boss-pep-guardiola-ahead-of-summer-2013-hand-over/

Now United have moved to deny this rumour but, they would, wouldn't they...

redrus

[JacknDanny]

when Fergie retires and Guardiola takes the reigns...?

redrus

Oh I do hope so. I think he's the one manager that could carry on from Ferguson without feeling inferior and would continue playing the style of football we want to see.

I reckon its a done deal, there is no speculation from the media anymore, whispers around OT fan mags support this.

Nothings ever 100% but, no one else fits the bill for me. They were both recently absent from a managers meeting in Europe, Jose Morinho called Fergie, he was in New York, meeting Pep, where he lives....!! http://www.caughtoff...2013-hand-over/

Now United have moved to deny this rumour but, they would, wouldn't they...

redrus

You really think SAF will jack it in at the end of the season???

Personally I do not think there is ANY chance, as long as he is healthy.

I think United will go trophyless again this season, which means there is even less chance of him giving up!!

It is not in his genes to retire on a low. He will want to win something and then do it..... long wait methinks!!

[mjj]

The problem I see today with the money in football is that you need a base of well over £300m worth of players before you can even dream of winning the prem. both Chelsea and City were well under that, so they needed to spend big.

With success brings supporters, bigger stadiums and sponsors and all of these bring money. So apart from the top 3 in the prem I really can't see how anyone else can join the party without a sugar daddy.

I don't think it's fair, but what can you do? I don't think the FairPlay ruling will work and spending only what you earn is great if you are a top club, but for the Villas, Norwichs, et al, its a bit 5hit isn't it? They are stuck in a catch-22 and all I see happening is the richer clubs just become richer and the lower clubs are stuck.

Wage cap? Top players move abroad.

Unless you have a team wage bill limit. But this would have to be so high that all apart from the few would be able to reach it.

To be frank, without the big money spending of CFC and mcfc, the prem would just be about united which would kill the league.

The arguement of finding new cheap talent is diminishing due to the multi media we enjoy today. As soon as some youngster looks good all the scouts in the world are viewing them online or flying to wherever. Look at how many under 20's today are worth multi millions. They have all been on everyone's radar since they were 10!

[mjj]

when Fergie retires and Guardiola takes the reigns...?

redrus

Oh I do hope so. I think he's the one manager that could carry on from Ferguson without feeling inferior and would continue playing the style of football we want to see.

I reckon its a done deal, there is no speculation from the media anymore, whispers around OT fan mags support this.

Nothings ever 100% but, no one else fits the bill for me. They were both recently absent from a managers meeting in Europe, Jose Morinho called Fergie, he was in New York, meeting Pep, where he lives....!! http://www.caughtoffside.com/2012/09/07/sir-alex-ferguson-in-new-york-to-meet-next-man-united-boss-pep-guardiola-ahead-of-summer-2013-hand-over/

Now United have moved to deny this rumour but, they would, wouldn't they...

redrus

I think Pep to Man U is a good match. I hope you get him.

[rijit]

Utd in decline? dont think so, more like the immediate opposition have stepped up. I reckon the next time utd win the title and or the champions lge could mark the end of fergies career. Who ever's gonna replace him has a huge legacy to live up to, if he's still available, ide go pep guardiola.