Warning Hsbc Credit Cards

[chriskimpton]

hmmm, you read a lot into things but miss the point. I was not getting drunk, it was the middle of the day.

Leave the card at home you say. but what if your home is robbed while you are out? what if you were on holiday or out of town for a few days do didn't know the theft had taken place - do you really want the expense that the theives run up on your card to be your responsibliity? I guess you do, but there are manny people who would hope that the same rights applied here as they do in their home counries.

And, if they are not aware of this difference i am pointing that out. If you are ok with that major difference then don't worry, be happy. But for those unaware i beleive it is important that they know this.

I had my phone and computer stolen. As standard in Thailand i needed to make a police report and spent my time with them both at the scene of the crime and then at the police station. All the purchases were made during this time. Once i could get to a phone and track down the number to call to cancel the card there was nothing i could do.

As point of reference in Australia the requirement is that a stolen card be reported within a reasonable period - stated as 5 working days. in this case we are talking about 12 hours.

[chriskimpton]

warpspeed, not very quick are you. if the card is issued by a bank in the US for example the liabliity for unauthorised purchases is a maximum of $50 - this might be huge in your world but far more reasonable the $4,000.

age isn't really relevent here. i'm just informing people of their rights and lack of rights. seems you too can be educated.

[StreetCowboy]

Is the Fair Credit Billing Act a Thai Law? If so, you would presumably have a claim against them; if not, then it is scarcely surprising. There are probably a number of elements of Shariah law that they don't comply with, as well. In my experience, HSBC provide excellent service at a price, and I assume that is one of the reasons that they are one of the most successful banks worldwide, and able to provide so much support to the rugby community in Asia. If that is at the expense of idiots who are stupid enough to leave their card behind the bar in Pattaya, one can but express one's gratitude to the idiots.

SC

EDIT: To be honest, I prefer not to leave my credit card behind any bar, and prefer to settle my bills with cash, even if it costs to get the cash. Credit and drinking really don't go together - same as credit and gambling (almost).

what kind of Shariah Law element a Thai credit card issuer need to comply with?

Shariah Law is irrelevant in Thailand. The Fair Credit Billing Act is a piece of US legislation, and also irrelevant to the issue, use, management and billing of Thai credit cards.

I imagine that the Terms and Conditions specify that Thai law is applicable.

SC

[jfchandler]

there are manny people who would hope that the same rights applied here as they do in their home countries.

And, if they are not aware of this difference i am pointing that out. If you are ok with that major difference then don't worry, be happy. But for those unaware i beleive it is important that they know this.

Many people might "hope" that....But unfortunately, in the real world, they'd be saddened to find out that's simply not the case in Thailand.

Likewise, there was an article in the BKK Post today regarding the operation of "financial advisors" in Thailand that was written by a farang financial advisor... And, as the article pointed out, likewise in that arena, it's pretty much like the Wild West and most of the regulations and safeguards that exist to protect consumers in major western countries simply aren't in place here. Hence it's become known as LOS, Land of Scams.

[StreetCowboy]

I was thinking about this, and in particular - who does the OP want to bear the cost, if he feels it should not be the card owner?

HSBC? Then they would have to pass the cost on to me, and I am not particularly happy about that.

Perhaps he should be offered insurance, so that he can choose either to be indemnified, or accept whatever credit limit he is willing to risk.

Or perhaps it should be the retailers.

The last would encourage the retailers to check the credentials of people making credit card transactions, which in turn would make credit card fraud a little more difficult.

So I would have to say that would be the way to go.

One might impose a limit on that - say the first thousand Baht of any transaction at any store in any day would be at the card-holder's risk, so that retailers didn't have to mess about with every single transaction, unless it is made 'secure' in some way - PIN or whatever, when the whole amount would fall to the card-holder.

But anyway, we can all speculate on what should be... but sadly, so few of us appear to know what is really the case, so we should be grateful to the OP for highlighting this risk

and it reminds me, I have some overseas accounts to close....

SC

[supaprik]

Moral is, dont let your card out of your sight, and now, even i dont know where ive hidden it,,

don't know where the card is hidden but never let out of your sight? hmmmmmmm excellent moral for sure

[jfchandler]

Unlike a lot of (or perhaps all of) the Thai banks, at least HSBC Thailand has an accessible Terms and Conditions document on its web site for its credit cards...

This is the language in that document regarding fraudulent use of their credit cards. It's actually about as bad as I would have expected.... basically no consumer protection at all, vastly different than USA bank issued cards:

In case where the Card is lose, stolen or used by other persons without the Cardholder's authorization, the Cardholder shall immediately report such incident to the Bank's Customer Service Centre so as to suspend the use of the Card and to cancel the personal identification number. Nevertheless, any sum arising from such unauthorized use prior to the report being made by the Cardholder and within 5 minutes after the report has been made shall be at the Cardholder's full liability. In any case, if investigation by the Bank indicates that such liability occurred by the Cardholder's own act or with the Cardholder's awareness, the Cardholder shall be liable in full as aforementioned.

And, apparently you even get to pay for them to issue you a new card, if/after your card is lost or stolen:

The Cardholder agrees to pay an initial membership fee and annual membership fee, cash advance fee, copies of sales slip fee, and/or any other fees to the Bank at the rate set by the Bank and/or Visa International/MasterCard International. In case the Card is lost, stolen, or reissued while the existing Card is still valid or usable, the Cardholder shall pay the replacement card fee.

And then there's their foreign currency fee if you use the card abroad:

Any transactions incurred by the use of the Card abroad in the currency of that country shall be converted into Thai Baht according to the exchange rate announced by Visa International/ MasterCard International on the date the Bank is informed of such debt from overseas. Provided that such charge shall not be exceeding 2.5% over the transaction's debt incurred overseas.

http://www.hsbc.co.t...msAndConditions

Edited May 23, 2011 by jfchandler

[Pib]

Customer protection!!!??? Sounds more like bank protection!

Nope, keep your Thai credit cards; I'll continue to use my U.S. credit card which doesn't charge any foreign transaction fee and provides customer protection under U.S laws.

[jfchandler]

In comparison, Bangkok Bank also has a terms and conditions page for its credit cards, but it seems entirely devoted to various fees and charges associated with the cards.... Nothing that I can find or see regarding cardholder liability in the event of lost/stolen cards....

http://www.bangkokbank.com/Bangkok%20Bank/Personal%20Banking/Credit%20Card/Credit%20Cards/Pages/Terms%20and%20Conditions%20all.aspx

[tingtongtourist]

I had a similar thing, sposed to go shopping for funiture ect for new house, but broke a bone in big toe, gave the mrs card and number, max 20k bht, [5 years ago] she came back that night and gave me bills totalling 150k bht, <deleted>,how? who? , she said i found the things we wanted, gave them your card, told them you sick, they take my ID card and copy, and all ok,,,, grrrrr. next time we went to the store, i complained bitterly to the boss, and he gave us a microwave,

Moral is, dont let your card out of your sight, and now, even i dont know where ive hidden it,,

maybe this sentance should be

Moral is, dont let your WIFE out of your sight, and now, even i dont know where ive hidden it

But even this would not have helped the other guys thread whos wife had her gold stolen in the toilets

[chriskimpton]

The bank already has insurance. All card holders are paying for this anyway.

If the merchant cannot prove that the transaction was sound. Then the bank won't guve them a penny.

Seems the bank wuns three times with the victom is screwed.

If any idiot is worried his fees will go up because of protection you jave to question why you get so little for your fees abd charges.

Had to laugh at the twrmsband conditions above. You liable and if you are lying then you are still liable. Does that mean they expect to win four times for every issue.

[jfchandler]

Here's the language I was able to find on a Siam Commercial Bank terms and conditions Adobe PDF document re their credit cards... The first 5 pages are in Thai, and the last half is in English.

It says you're not supposed to give the card to others... So I assume that means, if you give the card to a waiter or waitress at the local restaurant in order to pay your dinner bill, you've technically violated the terms of the card. In any event, the bottom line appears to be.... any fraud, you're responsible in full.

4. The cardholder must keep the card and the personal identification Number code (PIN) with particular care and must not lose the credit card. The Card and the PIN code may under no

circumstances be passed to others or made accessible in any other way by any actions that cause others to possess the card or result in other people obtaining the pin code. In any circumstances, if the cardholder does not follow the terms, and the card is used for fraudulent

proposes by others, using the card and/or the PIN code, or counterfeiting the card, or forging the signature of the cardholder, or using any other methods to induce merchants to accept the credit card instead of cash or allow them to withdraw money, the promisor agrees to bear sole

responsibility for the transactions conducted using the card and to compensate the bank or others for any damages arising from the fraudulent use.

This below sounds strangely like an older 2006 post on TV I was reading this morning (but had a hard time believing) where a guy who had an SCB credit card lost/stolen over a holiday weekend was complaining that the bank wouldn't cancel/freeze his card until he presented the bank with a written Thai police report confirming the theft... Meanwhile, the fraudulent charges are growing and growing...

Meanwhile, although I suspect it's a poor translation, the language below appears to be similar to the HSBC language I posted above... Essentially, you're liable for everything up to 5 minutes AFTER you report the fraud to the bank (apparently with the restriction I've listed above re the police report) and then the bank will charge you for the issuing of a new card...

In case the card is lost or stolen, the cardholder must inform the local

officers at the scene, and bring the evidence of notice to the bank with a confirmation letter that confirms the loss, or theft of the card in written form. When the bank receives such notice, theBank will notify the loss or theft, and/or cancellation and/or suspension of the card to the group who accept credit card payment instead of cash payment for products and services (referred as

"stores"). Anyhow, the promisor still needs to be responsible for debts arising from the use of the card during 5 minutes from the time the bank has been notified by the cardholder. In

addition, the promisor agrees to pay a fee caused by cancellation or suspension of the card to

the bank.

And how about protection for credit card purchases of faulty/non-working merchandise or non-provided services:

11. The Bank is not responsible for defective products or any services that the cardholder uses the

card to purchase or pay for service using the card instead of cash. In case of a return of products, or cancellation of services ,or improve the price of products or services that the cardholder use the card instead of cash, the Cardholder will not be reimbursed in cash from the

bank, but the stores will ask for the card from the cardholder for them to prepare the proof of refund and put the refund back to the account (Credit Voucher) and the cardholder will receive the card back immediately with a copy of the proof of refund and put the refund back to the

account (Credit Voucher) Issued and signed by the stores.

And then there's the familiar foreign currency fee charge:

In addition, cardholder acknowledges and agrees that the Bank is entitled to collecting the hedging premium from the Cardholder as stipulated by the Bank but not exceeding 2.5% of such

exchange rates in order to protect the exchange rate risk.

http://www.scbcredit...m/condition.pdf

Edited May 23, 2011 by jfchandler

[stevenl]

I have lost ATM cards etc. before, unfortunately. The first thing to do is block them. The OP failed to do so, he found it more important to go to his burglared car and to the police station after that, without warning his bank.

Also the conditions as quoted above are very clear. You accepted this when you accepted the card, now don't moan about it.

[jfchandler]

I doubt very much that most people, Thais or farang, ever see or actually read the legalese terms and conditions documents associated with credit cards issued by Thai banks...

Unfortunately, most farang probably make the mistaken assumption that the same consumer/fraud rules they're familiar with from their home countries will apply here.... Obviously, that's dead wrong and a big mistake to assume.

The Thai banks themselves certainly don't do much to make the Ts & Cs prominently displayed or available... I still can't find Bangkok Bank's document at all online...

[Pib]

Yeap, appears Thai banks have their credit card terms of agreement written to protect themselves and to set the consumer up as the fall guy. And to have the audacity to charge the consumer a fee for canceling a card because it was stolen/compromised....but I'm not surprised because This Is Thailand. This is what happens when no real consumer protection laws (with any real teeth) exist.

[jfchandler]

You gotta love the Thai banks credit card business...

Pay a fee to get the card.... pay an annual fee to keep the card.... pay a fee if you lose the card or have it stolen....

Pay 20% APR interest on any carried balances.... Any problem with fraudulent card activity... you pay until reporting to the bank, even if you might not be aware of any problem....

And frankly, I'm not sure how those rules apply to the skimming or copying of a card number....

If you card is physically lost or stolen, at least you're going to know that usually pretty promptly...

But if just your number is stolen (not the card itself), you might not know for who knows how long....

I didn't know all these details before checking about them today, in response to this thread...

Now that I know... I'd NEVER take out a Thai Bank credit card.. NEVER NEVER NEVER.....

Edited May 23, 2011 by jfchandler

[tingtongtourist]

You gotta love the Thai banks credit card business...

Pay a fee to get the card.... pay an annual fee to keep the card.... pay a fee if you lose the card or have it stolen....

Pay 20% APR interest on any carried balances.... Any problem with fraudulent card activity... you pay until reporting to the bank, even if you might not be aware of any problem....

And frankly, I'm not sure how those rules apply to the skimming or copying of a card number....

If you card is physically lost or stolen, at least you're going to know that usually pretty promptly...

But if just your number is stolen (not the card itself), you might not know for who knows how long....

I didn't know all these details before checking about them today, in response to this thread...

Now that I know... I'd NEVER take out a Thai Bank credit card.. NEVER NEVER NEVER.....

I can see what you say here but we should point out there are some good Thai banking practice too. Kasikorn has some good security for internet transaction in some times the bank will send you a code by sms to your mobile phone and without this code yuo will not be able to do the transaction. I believe you can also get this to send you a text message whenever your account is being used, so you would know of any suspicious transactions.Maybe they have been make to do this because of many times a Thai girl will clean out a mans account.555

With the desperation of people these days and clever of crooks everywhere i am not suprised the banks will not pay in some case of fraud. If they did it i think many bank be bankRUPTED in no time.

[jfchandler]

At 20% APR interest on balances, I'd assume the Thai banks have built in some cushion for fraud and non payment losses.... And lately, they've been reporting record profits.... So they're not hurting too bad under the current rules.

The U.S. banks in many ways went bankrupt in the recent downturn, but it wasn't because of protecting consumers from fraud under federal law... It was because they skated and/or broke the law in a range of risky, ill-advised investments...

[transam]

The problem here is a credit card can be used to buy stuff without a PIN number put into their machines, so anyone can use a stolen card to build up big money in a short time. OP's problem is that a transaction can be made in LOS with no PIN. Even my UK (not HSBC) card can buy stuff with no PIN but my bank confirms the transaction.

I never use a Debit card here in case of fraud. Use Credit card then transfer on line money to the credit card same day.

[jfchandler]

It all depends on what country your cards are issued in, and what the applicable rules are there....

But in Thailand, I'd think about this for Thai bank issued cards, credit and debit, which both allow swipe and sign...

With a debit card that's lost or stolen, a thief could ring up up to your daily POS limit... which hopefully you've set at a reasonably low level.

With a credit card, a thief could ring up up to your total credit card credit limit, which probably is higher than your daily POS limit on a debit card.

Either way, it seems, with a Thai bank, you're likely to be screwed out of whatever is lost prior to your reporting it to your bank.

[electau]

The problem with CCs is that they can be signed or a PIN. If stolen the thief does not have the PIN.

All Debit cards have a PIN only.

If Thai cards have the Visa and Mastercard logos you should be able to telephone direct to Mastercard and Visa International numbers and report the cards lost/stolen etc. They will give you a transaction number and your cards will be blocked from any further use.

And one should keep CCs in ones possession at all times, on ones person or under lock and key in a safe place.

All transactions should be done infront of you with you in control of the card, all the sales person does is enter the payment amount. (EFTPOS).

But it would appear that Thai Banks have very poor customer protection.

I have Australian cards, if cards were lost or stolen I would just telephone my bank or contact Mastercard/ Visa direct. I would only be personally liable for up to $50.