Another Restaurant In Cm Busted For Playing Recorded Music

[Ulysses G.]

A very small, inexpensive restaurant in the Thapae Gate area got busted last night for playing recorded music.

They brought the guy's wife to the police station and demanded 60,000 baht. He refused on the phone and eventually the police called back and asked for less, but he refused that too and eventually got them down to 35,000. This is a place that makes very little profit and can not afford to be ripped off.

Something needs to be done about this scam.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[bazmlb]

If you have the correct licenses from RKT and One stop then whats the issue?

[Ulysses G.]

There are a few threads on here that claim that the scammers just ignore these licences and demand money anyway.

There is a thread on the Pattaya forum where the con artists were actually arrested and they claim that these same criminals are now doing it in Chiang Mai with the help of the Boys in Brown.

Edited June 3, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[surayu]

Yes i read that story about that group of people connected to a particular police station up north, but didn't they escaped from Pattaya after having paid bail ? am i remembering right? if so, can't someone get the Pattaya BiB to go and arrest them up there?

[OriginalPoster]

There are a few threads on here that claim that the scammers just ignore these licences and demand money anyway.

There is a thread on the Pattaya forum where the con artists were actually arrested and they claim that these same criminals are now doing it in Chiang Mai with the help of the Boys in Brown.

What is required for a restaurant to be legal in that regard. Is it sufficient to have the original copies of the CD's in your shop?

[Ulysses G.]

That is what is so confusing. Most of the posts claim that the owners have to pay no matter what the circumstances are, but, of course, one can not always rely on Info that is posted on the Internet.

[RidersCorner]

I've heard recording the police interview with a video camera on your phone can have interesting results

[JimSiam]

Some tips.

They must ask permission to go behind the counter of any venue to check what music/cd's they have, if they don't requested this then they are breaking the law themselves.

They must also have filled out a day report before heading out for any any stings, get the report checked to see they were not out of the area they were intending on visiting.

(Small things like this can mean the difference between getting out of it or paying a fine, so note down everything they do, they will usually video things as well for their own evidence)

Don't use mp3's, use original CD's and avoid playing Thai music.

Have a valid license from One Stop and RKT and only play the songs by artists covered by these licenses.

Make sure food and drink licenses are also kept up to date.

Have a good lawyers number handy who will come out even after hours, they do stings at night as they know many wont be contactable and also that the license companies are closed after hours.

You do not have to pay the fine, you can choose to take a night in Jail and have your case heard in court and the amount would normally be a lot less if resolved in a court, but you lawyer will be able to advise you on this better as to which way to proceed, to avoid staying in Jail you can get bail bond insurance quite cheaply to avoid a night in the tank.

[ikis]

"Have a valid license from One Stop and RKT and only play the songs by artists covered by these licenses.:"

where can you get RKT license and where can you get a list or something to know which artist are covered by what licenses?

what about compilation albums? what about so called demos or author's editions that don't really get any money from any public playing and it's completly legal and free to play

where ever?

also anybody know a good lawyer who will deal with this sort of stuff and answers phone 24h?

to me this whole thing sounds unbelievable and is still going on and nobody can really do anything. that's just insane.

[Beetlejuice]

Some tips.

They must ask permission to go behind the counter of any venue to check what music/cd's they have, if they don't requested this then they are breaking the law themselves.

They must also have filled out a day report before heading out for any any stings, get the report checked to see they were not out of the area they were intending on visiting.

(Small things like this can mean the difference between getting out of it or paying a fine, so note down everything they do, they will usually video things as well for their own evidence)

Don't use mp3's, use original CD's and avoid playing Thai music.

Have a valid license from One Stop and RKT and only play the songs by artists covered by these licenses.

Make sure food and drink licenses are also kept up to date.

Have a good lawyers number handy who will come out even after hours, they do stings at night as they know many wont be contactable and also that the license companies are closed after hours.

You do not have to pay the fine, you can choose to take a night in Jail and have your case heard in court and the amount would normally be a lot less if resolved in a court, but you lawyer will be able to advise you on this better as to which way to proceed, to avoid staying in Jail you can get bail bond insurance quite cheaply to avoid a night in the tank.

What you say jimsiam is technically correct, but I’m afraid it doesn’t quite work this way and not that simple. This is showing to have all the characteristics of the Pattaya jetski scams.

It usually begins with the heavy mob turning up, using intimidation and threats to obtain large amounts of money from a business owner.

If this fails to scare the poor bustard into paying, then the nice policeman is called onto the scene who promises to sort the whole matter out on the owner’s behalf. Then the nice policeman with all the goodwill in the world and having heaps of sympathy for the business owner begins negotiations with the mob and gets the price decreased from a truckload of cash down to only a pick up load of cash.

And again if this method fails to impress or scare the poor bustard into paying, then the owner is taken to a police station and asked to pay an on the spot fine consisting of a huge sum of money and promised to be let off with no more questions asked if he behaves like a good boy, coughs up the doe and then pisses off.

And again, if this fails to impress or scare the poor bustard into paying, then the nice policeman threatens to use the full force of the manipulated law against the business owner and throw the poor bustard in jail and later imposed to attend a court for his heinous criminal activities. In other words the poor bustard is owned.

How the mob and the police conduct their investigation has no relevance to the case because these thugs and criminal gangs are a law unto themselves.

As a matter of fact, using the word scam is an understatement; as this is chronic case of criminal extortion, pure and simple. This is not dissimilar to the East End of London protection rackets of the 1950s and 1960s. Pay up or suffer the consequences.

And here are my tips to restaurant and bar owners; at this time the tentacles of extortion rackets appear to be spreading, so for the time being until something, somehow becomes resolved, is to not have any music in your establishments in any shape or form so as not to leave yourselves at the mercy of the police and criminal gangs. Well, for the time being anyway.

But of course at the end of the day, how you run your businesses is your affair, if you think you know best.

[vont]

And here are my tips to restaurant and bar owners; at this time the tentacles of extortion rackets appear to be spreading, so for the time being until something, somehow becomes resolved, is to not have any music in your establishments in any shape or form so as not to leave yourselves at the mercy of the police and criminal gangs. Well, for the time being anyway.

may i beg to be different on this.

are you advocating that the owners of those copyrighted music or scores, have no legal rights of their own to recover possible revenues that could have been lost due to illegal using and playing of the intellectual property rights....?

on a daily basis, many of us continually violate the owners' rights to recover revenues, many times we are just ignorant of what we ought to do; if and when we are reminded of others' equal rights as well,

frequently we become indignant and demand to know.... where are my own rights in these matters.... such are human nature.

on the flipside, i agree with you those extortionists ought to be videoed.... and subject them to the same laws that governs everyone else.... <frequently i talk too much>

Edited June 3, 2011 by vont

[OldeBellPedr]

As far as I'm aware RKT are the scam merchants. The licence to play foreign music comes form MCT Phonoright in Bangkok, also known as 1 stop music. They are the legal equivalent of the British Performing Rights Society.

you need separate licences for CD's and music played via a computer. The total cost is 6,000 baht per year. They don't really want you to register with them if you have under 100 covers. too much trouble apparantly. We insisted!!

The music licence scam is, as far as I know just that: a scam. If you go to the police station, phone your lawyer and are prepared for your wife to be locked up for a couple of hours, the 'misunderstanding' is rectified and you walk free. A healthy, 'working relationship' with your local neighbourhood police sergeant is helpful in this regard.

A couple of points to bear in mind

1. As mentioned above they have to ask permission to go behind the bar. Make it clear, ideally with witnesses that you are denying this. It will then make it more difficult for them to plant the incriminating CD containing a few of the 65 or so tracks to which they DO hold the rights (all Thai songs)

2. They are not allowed to come around after sundown.

3. Keep a camera handy and start taking photos of them and ideally their vehicle registration plates. Be forewarend though, they have beefy mates nowadays to discourage you from doing this.

4. Keep your cool! Don't bang on about Police corruption or loss of face will occur and heels will be dug in.

This is a disgraceful scam targetting vulnerable bar owners who don't understand that their is SOME rule of law here. Good luck in not becoming a victim!!

[mesquite]

So this guy's wife is in police custody and HE JUST LEAVES HER THERE and negotiates with them over the phone?

No thought of actually going down there to bring her home?

Something isn't right in this story. Does not compute.

Maybe he was saying, "I don't have 60,000 baht, but you can keep her." ????

[Ulysses G.]

So this guy's wife is in police custody and HE JUST LEAVES HER THERE and negotiates with them over the phone?

No thought of actually going down there to bring her home?

Something isn't right in this story. Does not compute.

Maybe he was saying, "I don't have 60,000 baht, but you can keep her." ????

It may not "compute", but it is what happened and he did volunteer to go to the police station himself, but was not allowed to take her place.

[mesquite]

So this guy's wife is in police custody and HE JUST LEAVES HER THERE and negotiates with them over the phone?

No thought of actually going down there to bring her home?

Something isn't right in this story. Does not compute.

Maybe he was saying, "I don't have 60,000 baht, but you can keep her." ????

It may not "compute", but it is what happened and he did volunteer to go to the police station himself, but was not allowed to take her place.

Got it. Thanks. And I gotta agree, this scam is the lowest of the low.

[Loaded]

Would they accept vouchers for a weekend stay at the Downtown Inn?

[jackr]

Keep a camera handy and start taking photos of them and ideally their vehicle registration plates. Be forewarend though, they have beefy mates nowadays to discourage you from doing this.

Those with shops, bars, restaurants, consider setting up webcams.

[Ulysses G.]

2. They are not allowed to come around after sundown.

I have never heard of a case when they did come before sundown.

[backsoon]

Not sure whether to open a new thread, but it is related to this one.<IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif"> <BR><BR>Living in a condo with over 100 apartments. Within 50m there is a Hotel/Resort. Every week minimum 2/7 sometimes more often they have busloads of tourists coming in. Naturally, parties galore. <BR>The worst case of parties - no recorded music, no bands, but caraoke style. High power amps, mic's and a small podium.<BR>Net result - every mad dog and his wife tell the story of their love, 'singing'. The usual case of people, who like to sing, but cannot.<BR><STRONG>This is maddening</STRONG>!<IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt= src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/bah.gif"> <BR><BR>When copying western laws, <STRONG>did Thais get to the concept of noise pollution? <BR></STRONG>I'm not sure the venue in question does have the licence or not, but even if they do, it should't have been given to them in view of proximity of residential building. This is how it is done in the West. But we are obviously not... <BR><BR>Any <STRONG>knowleageable</STRONG> comments?<IMG class=bbc_emoticon alt=:jap: src="http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/jap.gif"> <BR>

[Paagai]

Here is the link to another thread about recent activity in Chiang Mai here:

Thread with Pattaya videos

For various reasons, I keep running into these scammers as it was again last night..... only this time down at the main police station. As, I was not involved it was interesting to watch them at close quarters. They are definitely not police. They didn't have an office or even a desk, but were trying to print documents with a laptop and portable whilst they sat perched in a corridor. Their car is a new looking white Yaris (I think) - very distinctive with red trimmed alloy wheels and brakes.

The people they'd caught were all waiting outside and not in the main waiting area. No one was actually "arrested" as such. The only time they went into the actual Police area was to pay when a deal had been done (25,000 Bt I believe). They seemed to be packaging up a few CDs as evidence and took everything with them when they left, including their printer, so the "evidence" was not secured by the Police or immune from tampering.

The Police seemed totally disinterested in them apart from one guy who seemed to be involved in negotiations.

Can't be certain but two of them looked like two from the Pattaya videos: the guy in the lime green shirt in the first video and the guy with blue and yellow stripes in the second. There is also a very distinctive girl with them, very small and wiry with a thin face, who keeps blinking all the time. They'd done at least two places last night.

My understanding is there are two stories here. Playing Thai music without a licence for Thai music - seems they only have to find one CD with Thai music, even if your not actually playing it. I know of one case where they searched a customers hand bag and found a CD. Nothing to do with the bar at all! But, if you don't have a licence, your position is hard to defend even if the evidence is spurious. The other story is the real scam with the people who claim to own some Thai songs not covered by the Onestop licence. Even if you don't have them, they'll try to put them on your computer!

I heard Onestop are really pissed with these guys and, if you call them, will come to the bar or Police station, even late at night.

From my observations re-iterating a few points on this and the other thread: Get the Onestop licence. Call onestop IMMEDIATELY if these jokers show up. Don't let anyone go to the Police station unless arrested/ordered by a Police Officer who shows his ID. They want a vulnerable person to hold hostage! Don't let them take your computer. This may all be easier said than done so - if it does end up at the Police, call your Lawyer (or friendly neighbourhood henchman if you have one ) Refuse to pay anything and say you want to take it to court with your lawyer - remember if it goes to court these guys get nothing if they are not legitimate, and still have to pay the local BIB their cut . They may then want to hold someone in Jail, but you should be able to bail them if proper charges have been laid.

If the people involved refuse to show Police ID or follow proper process you can press charges against them(e.g. kidnapping, or theft of your computer) do this immediately as they are criminal charges that can't be ignored.

Install a recording CCTV system and make it obvious! Above all, find a music delivery system that does not involve CDs or computers anywhere in the bar, e.g. playing from TV or radio, or a media streaming player that get's music from the internet or a remote computer hidden elsewhere in the building. Better still use an old fashioned record player

Edited June 4, 2011 by Paagai

[mic6ard]

Really am waiting for them to try this at a wrong place, i.e. with bigger connection than them.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Keep a camera handy and start taking photos of them and ideally their vehicle registration plates. Be forewarend though, they have beefy mates nowadays to discourage you from doing this.

Those with shops, bars, restaurants, consider setting up webcams.

From reading the above, if you do play mp3s then it would be good to ensure that nothing can be loaded on to it. So either playing off a device where you cannot quickly load stuff on to (such as an iPod), or disabling all USB ports and CD/DVD drive.

Or stream it from somewhere upstairs, or from an Internet radio station; then there are no mp3's to be found.

[trainman34014]

Really am waiting for them to try this at a wrong place, i.e. with bigger connection than them.

They already know, or are tipped off by the BIB, which establishments are 'connected' and would never go near them.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

At this point I should perhaps also highlight 'Jango.com'.. Internet radio that you can completely fine-tune. And not a single music file of any kind anywhere.

[Ulysses G.]

A post from the Pattaya forum about the same creeps who have been spotted in Chiang Mai.

After reading several of the music police threads one gets the impression that if they choose you you've already lost. I have lots of questions:Does anyone know a 'happy ending' where the owner showed their current 1StopMusic license and the bad guys went away? Does anyone know of anyone who after not being presented with proper ID and a proper search warrant (name of establishment to search, etc..) asked the bad guys to leave and they actually left? Does anyone know of anyone not paying off money that night and having the incident end up in a court of law? If so how did it work out? Has anyone tried to go to the police preemptively to find out how to prevent a raid in the first place? Finally, many people have asked for the name of a great lawyer who would be available to fight these guys at midnight but I've yet to see one named.

They came to my bar 2 times in 2009. The first time, the wife and I were not there, and we weren't prepared for this sort of thing. That was the first we has heard about it. The staff made both mistakes;

-Allowed them to take stereo, ipod, etc as well as my laptop which was not even hooked up to anything or turned on

-And the staff went with them to the station.

We needed our stuff back, were ignorant to the whole situation so the wife went down, negotiated from 50,000 to 15,000 and called it a night.

Then they came back again in Sept 2009. This time we were ready with a camera, etc and the wife and I were both there. I got a photo of the boss red shirt guy from second video, as well as his sidekick, driver, and fortuner including number plates. The windows were blacked out but there was a lady in the back of the fortuner calling the shots but not showing her face. They didn't like the photos being taken and quickly ran out of the bar to stop me. They tried taking my camera, tried taking me but I didn't let them do either. After a big scene in the road, they took off empty handed. They haven't come back...yet.

Since then, we bought the MCT (1-Stop) licence. This last time they were there, our neighbours already had the license and these scammers weren't interested in it. They said its no good, didn't want to see it, etc. They refuse to show id or even say who they work for. They do not own the rights to anything and are nothing more than extortionists. They are so successful simply because most bar-owner/managers do not know their rights. Because some "big-shot" music company guy tells them that he can look around, confiscate things, take people to the police station, etc, the bar managers take their word for it. They prey on ignorance.

I am considering posting the photos somewhere but am concerned about pissing these guys off more which is asking for more trouble...

Edited June 4, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[Tokay]

Wretched people some of them are.

Looking forward to the next SARS outbreak.

[lanna2011]

they seem determined to ruin it for everyone - arresting jamers etc. where's the 'welcome to Thailand' gone?

[Gonzo the Face]

This is so flagrantly wrong , I cannot see the authorities stepping in and putting a stop to it

It also surprises me to no end that Pim and City Life have not jumped all over this with some kind of article to bring it more out into the public eye.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Gonzo the Face

[Paagai]

This is so flagrantly wrong , I cannot see the authorities stepping in and putting a stop to it

It also surprises me to no end that Pim and City Life have not jumped all over this with some kind of article to bring it more out into the public eye.

Perhaps all Farang owned bars in CM should get together and refuse to play ANY music until certain situations are resolved. Plus providing handouts to customers explaining why and making sure it gets some Press/PR coverage including TAT?

These are just scamsters preying on the weak/uninformed. I've seen what happens both when you do and don't stand up to them. In reality they are cowards, period!

United we stand....

[Loaded]

Latest from the Chiang Mai Governor: "It's a misunderstanding".

ps

I made that up; but it wouldn't be exactly unexpected, would it?

Edited June 5, 2011 by Loaded