Boiler V Multi Point Hot Water System

[Greenside]

Our house project is very simple in terms of plumbing - we've got a kitchen plus a hand basin and bath with a shower over it in the bathroom and my current plan is for a boiler mounted under the eaves or in the loft space. I haven't determined the size yet but I do long for a decent hot bath from time to time so I want at least enough water to lounge around in.

An error on the part of the plumber led me to reconsider and i now wonder if a good multipoint heater wouldn't be a better bet on the basis that although the flow is presumably less I wouldn't have any issues with running short of water and making do with a tepid soak. I assume running costs would be less too.

Your thoughts?

Edited June 9, 2011 by Greenside

[Beardog]

We put in a multi-point to have hot water & a nice hot bath for the rare times it is cool enough. I think a boiler setup may be better. I am not to impressed with the heat it generates. While it is adequate(barely) It is hella slow on filling up the tub. most of the time I put a pot of water on the inductive stove to get it to go quicker. Don't buy a Fujika.

They are the boat anchor of the industry.

[katabeachbum]

I have homes with both solutions

Advantage of boiler tank is very hot water when desired, set at 80C, and for a home with many bathrooms less electric maximum demand. 200 liters tank approx 20k baht (Fagor). ad piping and taps/faucets. No maintance at all, and very long lifetime.

Advantage of on demand heaters is lack of piping, no need to have space for tank, and price if few hotwater points. But maintance, short lifetime, pressure/flow problems, ugly on wall, safety, and not very hot water

as for energy costs, close to nothing, as water in is 30C and air surrounding tank is 30C. If energy cost is a consern, solar heating before water entering tank is a solution.

No doubt I prefere tank

[Greenside]

I think I'm going to stick with the tank solution. I had considered pre-warming the water but I think I'll wait until later and see if I can find some way that doesn't involve the usual rather unsightly roof panel arrangement (mind you I've no idea what that might be).

Today the plumber had to be restrained from organising the hot water pipes so that the heater (boiler as I now know) was at the absolute other end of the system from the kitchen taps and simply couldn't understand why waiting for the water to come through should be a problem.

[katabeachbum]

I think I'm going to stick with the tank solution. I had considered pre-warming the water but I think I'll wait until later and see if I can find some way that doesn't involve the usual rather unsightly roof panel arrangement (mind you I've no idea what that might be).

Today the plumber had to be restrained from organising the hot water pipes so that the heater (boiler as I now know) was at the absolute other end of the system from the kitchen taps and simply couldn't understand why waiting for the water to come through should be a problem.

short or long hotwater pipes, using insulation as on AC pipes is a good idea and almost free

I have 20 meters from the tank to the kitchen and almost 30 meters to the laundry, and it takes a while before the hotwater arrives

[luudee]

I have always used boiler tanks. The only problem I have with them is that

they rust through after 2-3 years. Regardless of brand and claims they make.

I have well water which is very iron rich and that causes everything to rust

really fast ...

Unfortunately I have not seen a single boiler tank in Thailand that utilizes

"sacrificial anodes". The sales morons at all the local stores have no clue

what I am talking about and prefer to play with their mobile phones ...

http://www.waterheaterrescue.com/pages/WHRpages/English/Longevity/water-heater-anodes.html

I have now installed a 8KW flow through heater, and hate it. The water

gets warm enough to shower, but not hot enough for a hot bath ...

And only one bathroom can use it at a time. Again, ignore what the sales

morons promise (multi point capable, etc).

I think I will go and get the Fargo 50L tank again, and just be prepared

to replace it in 2-3 years ... (they start leaking once the rust worked it's

way). This will be the 4th time I am replacing them ...

[email protected]

[Greenside]

I have always used boiler tanks. The only problem I have with them is that

they rust through after 2-3 years. Regardless of brand and claims they make.

I have well water which is very iron rich and that causes everything to rust

really fast ...

Unfortunately I have not seen a single boiler tank in Thailand that utilizes

"sacrificial anodes". The sales morons at all the local stores have no clue

what I am talking about and prefer to play with their mobile phones ...

http://www.waterheat...ter-anodes.html

I have now installed a 8KW flow through heater, and hate it. The water

gets warm enough to shower, but not hot enough for a hot bath ...

And only one bathroom can use it at a time. Again, ignore what the sales

morons promise (multi point capable, etc).

I think I will go and get the Fargo 50L tank again, and just be prepared

to replace it in 2-3 years ... (they start leaking once the rust worked it's

way). This will be the 4th time I am replacing them ...

[email protected]

I just saw a Panasonic 10,000W (max) multi-point heater which my wife would prefer having had no experience of a boiler but I fear that in practice we would feel the same way you do.

Actually we were shown a couple yesterday that have sacrificial anodes which the sales guy was saying need changing every 12 - 18 months. It was this that caused us to re-think the siting of the boiler since replacement of the anode required a couple of feet or so under the horizontally mounted tank which I was all geared up to putting in the attic space to keep the cable and pipe runs short and not deface the side of the house. I also have a huge amount of iron in the water and although it seems OK after going through the filter, I'm assuming that some particles will end up accumulating in the boiler.

Two questions:

1. How often do you find it necessary to adjust the heat setting on the boiler itself?
2. Do you use a timer (as I would certainly do in the UK) to avoid heating in periods of low use?

I'll post the name of the brand as soon as I can find it.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Greenside

[katabeachbum]

I have always used boiler tanks. The only problem I have with them is that

they rust through after 2-3 years. Regardless of brand and claims they make.

I have well water which is very iron rich and that causes everything to rust

really fast ...

Unfortunately I have not seen a single boiler tank in Thailand that utilizes

"sacrificial anodes". The sales morons at all the local stores have no clue

what I am talking about and prefer to play with their mobile phones ...

http://www.waterheat...ter-anodes.html

I have now installed a 8KW flow through heater, and hate it. The water

gets warm enough to shower, but not hot enough for a hot bath ...

And only one bathroom can use it at a time. Again, ignore what the sales

morons promise (multi point capable, etc).

I think I will go and get the Fargo 50L tank again, and just be prepared

to replace it in 2-3 years ... (they start leaking once the rust worked it's

way). This will be the 4th time I am replacing them ...

[email protected]

I just saw a Panasonic 10,000W (max) multi-point heater which my wife would prefer having had no experience of a boiler but I fear that in practice we would feel the same way you do.

Actually we were shown a couple yesterday that have sacrificial anodes which the sales guy was saying need changing every 12 - 18 months. It was this that caused us to re-think the siting of the boiler since replacement of the anode required a couple of feet or so under the horizontally mounted tank which I was all geared up to putting in the attic space to keep the cable and pipe runs short and not deface the side of the house. I also have a huge amount of iron in the water and although it seems OK after going through the filter, I'm assuming that some particles will end up accumulating in the boiler.

Two questions:

1. How often do you find it necessary to adjust the heat setting on the boiler itself?
2. Do you use a timer (as I would certainly do in the UK) to avoid heating in periods of low use?

I'll post the name of the brand as soon as I can find it.

fagor 200 and 300 liter uses sacrificial anode. Have two buildings with same water supply (80m deep well) and just checked anode on one of the tanks. still fine after 3 years and approx 2000m3 of unfiltered water used each building

service fee to Fagor 500 baht and approx same if needed replaced

would not have a boiler in the attick. Laundry or roof slab prefered. Fagors 200 liter is installed on a stand approx 30-40 cm allowing easy service

We never adjust heat setting, just disconnect on breaker when hotwater is not needed. Even 3 days later water is still hot.

[juehoe]

Another alternative is a air/water heat pump, which are very effective in Thailand.

Since February I have installed the household model from Energy Master and I am very satisfied with it. But it quite an expensive item: ca. THB 150'000 with installation...

[luudee]

I just saw a Panasonic 10,000W (max) multi-point heater which my wife would prefer having had no experience of a boiler but I fear that in practice we would feel the same way you do.

Actually we were shown a couple yesterday that have sacrificial anodes which the sales guy was saying need changing every 12 - 18 months. It was this that caused us to re-think the siting of the boiler since replacement of the anode required a couple of feet or so under the horizontally mounted tank which I was all geared up to putting in the attic space to keep the cable and pipe runs short and not deface the side of the house. I also have a huge amount of iron in the water and although it seems OK after going through the filter, I'm assuming that some particles will end up accumulating in the boiler.

Two questions:

1. How often do you find it necessary to adjust the heat setting on the boiler itself?
2. Do you use a timer (as I would certainly do in the UK) to avoid heating in periods of low use?

I'll post the name of the brand as soon as I can find it.

10KW is a lot ! When the 8KW one in my house turns on in the evening

the lights dim, and we do have proper electric wiring inside the house.

But that I live east of sukhumvit, which isn't well maintained by the city ...

PLEASE tell me where they offered you heaters with sacrificial anodes !

I want one !

I usually never turn off the boiler tanks. I have mine always set on a

quite low setting, and never touch it. Water is always VERY hot ...

Thanks,

rudi

[luudee]

fagor 200 and 300 liter uses sacrificial anode. Have two buildings with same water supply (80m deep well) and just checked anode on one of the tanks. still fine after 3 years and approx 2000m3 of unfiltered water used each building

service fee to Fagor 500 baht and approx same if needed replaced

would not have a boiler in the attick. Laundry or roof slab prefered. Fagors 200 liter is installed on a stand approx 30-40 cm allowing easy service

We never adjust heat setting, just disconnect on breaker when hotwater is not needed. Even 3 days later water is still hot.

Hmm, thanks for that pointer, I will take a look. I don't

really need 200L, but will take a look and consider it.

Can you please tell me where you saw them ?

Thanks !

rudi

[PattayaParent]

I just saw a Panasonic 10,000W (max) multi-point heater which my wife would prefer having had no experience of a boiler but I fear that in practice we would feel the same way you do.

Actually we were shown a couple yesterday that have sacrificial anodes which the sales guy was saying need changing every 12 - 18 months. It was this that caused us to re-think the siting of the boiler since replacement of the anode required a couple of feet or so under the horizontally mounted tank which I was all geared up to putting in the attic space to keep the cable and pipe runs short and not deface the side of the house. I also have a huge amount of iron in the water and although it seems OK after going through the filter, I'm assuming that some particles will end up accumulating in the boiler.

Two questions:

1. How often do you find it necessary to adjust the heat setting on the boiler itself?
2. Do you use a timer (as I would certainly do in the UK) to avoid heating in periods of low use?

I'll post the name of the brand as soon as I can find it.

10KW is a lot ! When the 8KW one in my house turns on in the evening

the lights dim, and we do have proper electric wiring inside the house.

But that I live east of sukhumvit, which isn't well maintained by the city ...

PLEASE tell me where they offered you heaters with sacrificial anodes !

I want one !

I usually never turn off the boiler tanks. I have mine always set on a

quite low setting, and never touch it. Water is always VERY hot ...

Thanks,

rudi

I'd like to know to, where to get an 10kw OR 8 Kw multi point heater?

[Greenside]

The 10KW multi point was at HomePro in Chiang Mai (Hang Dong/Big C Branch) and has the catchy name of Panasonic DH10 BM1 - if you Google it you should get some info, although strangely I could find no mention of it (or any) water heaters on the Panasonic website. Price was about 9000 baht.

The boilers with sacrificial anode were from Nopadom which is a big Home Mart dealer in Chiang Mai. The size we were shown was about 100L so they do come in smaller sizes - I'll be buying one in the next few days and will post the make and model number for you.

Edited June 12, 2011 by Greenside

[katabeachbum]

fagor 200 and 300 liter uses sacrificial anode. Have two buildings with same water supply (80m deep well) and just checked anode on one of the tanks. still fine after 3 years and approx 2000m3 of unfiltered water used each building

service fee to Fagor 500 baht and approx same if needed replaced

would not have a boiler in the attick. Laundry or roof slab prefered. Fagors 200 liter is installed on a stand approx 30-40 cm allowing easy service

We never adjust heat setting, just disconnect on breaker when hotwater is not needed. Even 3 days later water is still hot.

Hmm, thanks for that pointer, I will take a look. I don't

really need 200L, but will take a look and consider it.

Can you please tell me where you saw them ?

Thanks !

rudi

I bought my 200 liter Fagors directly from Fagor, but they are also sold by Homepro. Never checked the spec, but assume they have anodes in smaller boiler tanks as well

Used the same tanks in Europe, and they are 12-15 years old by now.

[luudee]

I'd like to know to, where to get an 10kw OR 8 Kw multi point heater?

My 8KW flow through heater is a simple flow through thing, which the

sales drone said can be used as a "central" heater. If you are

interested and can wait, I'll give you mine really really cheap ... :-)

I think I picked it up at HomeWorks ....

rudi

[luudee]

The 10KW multi point was at HomePro in Chiang Mai (Hang Dong/Big C Branch) and has the catchy name of Panasonic DH10 BM1 - if you Google it you should get some info, although strangely I could find no mention of it (or any) water heaters on the Panasonic website. Price was about 9000 baht.

The boilers with sacrificial anode were from Nopadom which is a big Home Mart dealer in Chiang Mai. The size we were shown was about 100L so they do come in smaller sizes - I'll be buying one in the next few days and will post the make and model number for you.

Thanks, I will go and ask again. And will make sure to

specially check out the Fargo's in greater detail.

Anybody knows how to describe an "sacrificial anode" in

Thai ? Or if there is a Thai term for it ?

Thanks !

rudi

[ETatBKK]

I am using both Panasonic 8kW and 10kW models in my house. they are multi-point connection, but not strong enough for multi-point supply at the same time. also, the lengthly multi-point piping ( just within 10m+ ) the water not hot and not stable enough.

tank version certainly a better choice, just they consume more. good for house with number of users, and who alway take bath ( not shower ).

[Greenside]

The level of knowledge about boilers is pretty low it seems. From what I (think) I understand, most of the boilers have a sacrificial anode but only a couple of manufacturers actually advertise the fact - Ariston and Steibel Eltron being the ones that come to mind. The other brands just say the units need regular service which probably most people ignore if they are still getting some hot water.

Our choice finally came down to the fact we wanted a horizontally mounted 100L unit which ruled Steibel Eltron out (vertical only, they told us) and the Ariston fell by the wayside due to a very flimsy control knob that imparted zero confidence in the build quality. We came away with a 105L Alpha which has a 5 year warranty on all the parts including the element, a good finish and re-assuring solid build quality. Price 12,200 baht.

Thanks for all your input. Time will tell.

[PattayaParent]

I'd like to know to, where to get an 10kw OR 8 Kw multi point heater?

My 8KW flow through heater is a simple flow through thing, which the

sales drone said can be used as a "central" heater. If you are

interested and can wait, I'll give you mine really really cheap ... :-)

I think I picked it up at HomeWorks ....

rudi

Thanks, I think I actually have an 8kw, it's a 10kw I could do with really as it's for a double jacuzzi and the 8kw doesn't really get the water hot.

Next time I'll ensure I have enough ceiling space above the bathroom to install a tank.