Thailand grants citizenship to half a million people – but not farangs

[geraint999]

Can anyone recommend a structural engineer/draftsman in Isaan? Looking for someone to take architectural drawings and prepare plans that the authorities will approve, and the builder can consult.

[kamalabob2]

It was my experience in Buriram that a Thai Architect (several have offices in Buriram City) would hire a freelance Draftsman, or have draftsmen on staff. A licensed structural engineer also plays a real role in the plans you should submit to the local Government office for your building permit.

It was my experience in Buriram that various licensed Architects quoted a fee based on the size of the structure to be designed and NOT a percentage of the building costs. While the Architect and the Structural Engineer we hired were in fact licensed they were not required to carry any professional liability insurance.

On the approved plans for our home I see the name and license number of the Architect, then name and license number of the Structural Engineer and the name and phone number of the "drawn by:" on every page. I recall the draftsman was often late turning in plans to the architect.

The quoted cost varied quite a bit from architect to architect in Buriram. If you are in Issan, the people who KNOW who are decent architects, decent builders, etc are the owners of the building materials stores. They see the plans, and the sharper architects might work with CPAC roof specialist staff on roofing requirements in the planning stages. They might also hear a complaint or two, see who cuts corners, etc..

Of course you have not had something built in Thailand unless the on site builders skip a window, place a door opening in the wrong place, build a bathroom sink counter the wrong height, all items that are carefully indicated in Thai in the building plans.

[tassini]

If you can tell me which area you are in I may be able to help you. We have a guy who can prepare all your plans, details etc for the builders and for any local Amphur approvals. He will also supervise the construction work if required. He is really very good, the best local that I have found in 20 years here.

Tas

[geraint999]

Thanks kamalabob2 for your long and thoughtful reply. The architects are

friends in Australia so don't have in-house Thai draftsmen. They will

provide (they promise) a detailed Sketchup design.

Tassini: Nice to hear a good news story for once!

I'm in Kut Rua Kham, roughly midway between Udon Thani and Sakon Nakhon cities,

officially in Sakon Nakhon province. But I'm prepared to travel to anywhere in Isaan

to a good engineer. Of course the engineer might not want to supervise if it's too

distant :-)

Geraint

[geraint999]

If you can tell me which area you are in I may be able to help you. We have a guy who can prepare all your plans, details etc for the builders and for any local Amphur approvals. He will also supervise the construction work if required. He is really very good, the best local that I have found in 20 years here.

Tas

Hi Tas

Not sure whether you saw my last post. "I'm in Kut Rua Kham, roughly midway between Udon Thani and Sakon Nakhon cities,

officially in Sakon Nakhon province. But I'm prepared to travel to anywhere in Isaan

to a good engineer. Of course the engineer might not want to supervise if it's too

distant :-)"

I'm keen to get the name of your guy, if possible.

Geraint

[excaliber]

Thanks kamalabob2 for your long and thoughtful reply. The architects are

friends in Australia so don't have in-house Thai draftsmen. They will

provide (they promise) a detailed Sketchup design.

Tassini: Nice to hear a good news story for once!

I'm in Kut Rua Kham, roughly midway between Udon Thani and Sakon Nakhon cities,

officially in Sakon Nakhon province. But I'm prepared to travel to anywhere in Isaan

to a good engineer. Of course the engineer might not want to supervise if it's too

distant :-)

Geraint

Why would you hire an Engineer to supervise your project? or even an Architect unless they have extensive field work/experience. An Engineer is only capable of supervising the structure installation and also making and authorizing modifications that differ from the plans. But, TIT so changes are made without approval; unless of course we're talking about a large project; hotel, bank, high-end resort, etc., where there would be, in addition to a Project Manager, a full-time supervisor from the client side.

Hiring a contractor to build your house who supplies a supervisor is asking for trouble, in my opinion. He's being paid by who? The bottom line in Thailand is people listen to whoever is responsible for them getting paid. If a project manager isn't satisfied with the work done he will not sign-off or approve payment. On the other hand, a project manager or supervisor on the Contractor's payroll will listen to him.

It's ideal to find a project manager with both western building experience as well as local. Most westerner's who build houses here prefer a bit of western standard, especially the kitchens & bathrooms. For those who have already experience building a house in Thailand know and understand the uphill battle to get even decent quality not to mention a fair price.

There is indeed lots of information in this, and other forums from experienced expats who have built houses in Thailand, and I suspect, everyone would say, "It's no picnic" as well as confirming that it's far better to take the time to make sure everything is clear and detailed before the construction begins. Anything left out will usually cost you more, even simple things.

There's a mis-belief that by hiring a project manager the total costs will be much more.

For many years, the average fees for project management on a residential home are about 100k Baht/month. Hotels & resorts up around 200k/month. So lets take an example:

Here's a nice expat who wants to build a nice house to retire in. He's read a lot on the forums and knows how to cut corners and save money. The problem is, he's not going to be at the property since he's working offshore and can only come once in awhile. ...ok...He's found on the internet the kind of house design he & his wife/girlfriend like and he has a few changes made by an architect and get the (structure) plans re-certified for getting permission to build. He assumes the plans are detailed properly although they're in Thai and not many expats can read Thai so he goes ahead with getting estimates from Contractors for labor & materials. This in itself is mind boggling and can take a lot of time. Many will say the best way is to drive around and find a house that looks acceptable to you and knock on the door and find out who the builder is....

The next step is meeting with the builder and showing him your plans. Most builders will basically figure out the area: living areas including balcony's and covered verandahs and give you a square meter price based on above average materials. You'll argue, in vain, "why do the balcony & verandah areas cost the same"?

Most materials will have a maximum price, such as floor tile @ 300 baht/sqm. If you decide you want a better grade tile or floor covering then the difference is added to the bill. Additional labor costs can also be added if out of the ordinary installation is required.

Some contractors will give you a detailed boq that will include material & labors costs, Up-country, most will not. If you supply the builder with your own boq prepared by your architect and he agrees to it then the door is left open to dispute and the builder will want more money for something saying that your boq didn't include enough steel or concrete, etc. It's best to have your own boq to compare quantities with the builders boq. You will usually find fault with the steel, concrete, cement, etc., and unless you have knowledge and experience in these areas it best to have someone from your corner to verify everything. ....ok...now the bottom line of the contract will include a 20% profit for the builder, this is in addition to any padded labor & material costs. So now, on top of the labor & materials there's 20%, plus possible set-up fees, temporary housing for the workers, etc. ....and most builders don't want a "labor only" contract since the profit is much, much less.

Although there are builder's who will take on a labor only but you'll have to be on site all the time and makes trips to Global or Homemart regularly to make sure the workers have what they need to keep working and unless you're on top of the project, i.e., knowing what's needed beforehand, you'll most probably be asked by the builder for materials needed right away, taking you away from the project when anything can happen. Example: installing the water & drain pipes under the floor and covering them up before they've been tested, this happens all the time and since the builder says to you "I guarantee 100%" the pipe don't leak. So you usually take his word for it and pray everyday that they 'don't leak', especially the septic pipes...

..many years ago I was managing the construction of an electronics factory in Korat and although the plumber bragged he was the best plumber in Korat, I insisted he remove all the dirt around the pipes that he covered up so we could test them for leakage. It was already agree but, "I forgot, but don't worry, I guarantee they don't leak". I made him remove all the dirt and he was quite upset even after finding leak ind eighteen different places, and most of them were in the ladies bathroom where there were 24 toilets and 20 sinks. If left un-repaired with a terrazzo floor there would have been major problems later on including having to shutdown the factory work to tear the floor out, not to mention the smell.

I know this is a long post/reply and there's no doubt a handful of readers that will not agree with me. There are many expats who can claim they've built a house or two without any problems but maybe one in a thousand.....

If you're building a small house, 50 to 100 Sqm then hiring a project manager wouldn't be in your budget. On the other hand, if you prefer a trouble free house to western standards as well as saving money, think about hiring a project manager who can at the very least, make periodic inspections, at critical times as well as initial meetings with builder to make sure everything is understood just to help ensure your future isn't spent fixing things instead of enjoying your home.

By the way, in keeping with the OP's subject, I work with structural engineers a lot and not one of them will supervise (successfully) the build of your house although they can design & prepare structural drawings and sign them and many will accept payment for not having to do much if hired to supervise.

Edited July 5, 2011 by excaliber

[geraint999]

Why would you hire an Engineer to supervise your project? or even an Architect unless they have extensive field work/experience. An Engineer is only capable of supervising the structure installation and also making and authorizing modifications that differ from the plans. But, TIT so changes are made without approval; unless of course we're talking about a large project; hotel, bank, high-end resort, etc., where there would be, in addition to a Project Manager, a full-time supervisor from the client side.

Hiring a contractor to build your house who supplies a supervisor is asking for trouble, in my opinion. He's being paid by who? The bottom line in Thailand is people listen to whoever is responsible for them getting paid. If a project manager isn't satisfied with the work done he will not sign-off or approve payment. On the other hand, a project manager or supervisor on the Contractor's payroll will listen to him.

It's ideal to find a project manager with both western building experience as well as local. Most westerner's who build houses here prefer a bit of western standard, especially the kitchens & bathrooms. For those who have already experience building a house in Thailand know and understand the uphill battle to get even decent quality not to mention a fair price.

...

Thanks Excalibar

Sorry to be so long replying. I rarely get to monitor this site.

My basic problem is that I want a rather different house from the usual. With plans produced by my architect I think I need:

1. a draftsman to prepare plans in Thai,

2. a project manager with local experience,

3. a builder.

I realize this will be expensive but want the peace of mind.

Of course the project manager needs to be answerable to me and completely independent of the builder. I was thinking that perhaps it might be possible to combine 1 and 2, but, from what you say, I guess not.

[bbradsby]

You'll need a structural engineer to prepare the footings, foundation & superstructure plans & specs, and a Thai translation of your architectural set - not just linguistics, but also construction means & methods unless your Aussie friends are very familiar with working in LoS. I'd be happy to assist. PM me as TV doesn't want email addresses or websites thrown about in the forums.

[excaliber]

Why would you hire an Engineer to supervise your project? or even an Architect unless they have extensive field work/experience. An Engineer is only capable of supervising the structure installation and also making and authorizing modifications that differ from the plans. But, TIT so changes are made without approval; unless of course we're talking about a large project; hotel, bank, high-end resort, etc., where there would be, in addition to a Project Manager, a full-time supervisor from the client side.

Hiring a contractor to build your house who supplies a supervisor is asking for trouble, in my opinion. He's being paid by who? The bottom line in Thailand is people listen to whoever is responsible for them getting paid. If a project manager isn't satisfied with the work done he will not sign-off or approve payment. On the other hand, a project manager or supervisor on the Contractor's payroll will listen to him.

It's ideal to find a project manager with both western building experience as well as local. Most westerner's who build houses here prefer a bit of western standard, especially the kitchens & bathrooms. For those who have already experience building a house in Thailand know and understand the uphill battle to get even decent quality not to mention a fair price.

...

Thanks Excalibar

Sorry to be so long replying. I rarely get to monitor this site.

My basic problem is that I want a rather different house from the usual. With plans produced by my architect I think I need:

1. a draftsman to prepare plans in Thai,

2. a project manager with local experience,

3. a builder.

I realize this will be expensive but want the peace of mind.

Of course the project manager needs to be answerable to me and completely independent of the builder. I was thinking that perhaps it might be possible to combine 1 and 2, but, from what you say, I guess not.

Because you're wanting to build a house "out of the ordinary", you will need to find a flexible builder and not one who just 'say's' he can/will build anything you want. It's good to have a contract in both Thai and English to include everything that's questionable, i.e., "No Sub-contractors without owner's consent". It's common practice to meet with you and agree on everything, sign a contract and never see him again as he's passed the job off to someone else and is happy with his commission.

I can't really comment too much since the design is unknown at this time. Bear in mind that if you do want to build something unusual then you or designated project manager or supervisor need to be on-site most of the time to make sure the builder is indeed building the foundation, structure and finishes the way they are detailed in the plans, and of course, stock up on the aspirin.

You might be surprised to know that many builders don't bother looking at the details of the plans and build the way they know how and will cut corners whenever possible. Don't get me wrong, there are good builders out there but you have to babysit them in order to get what you desire and even with full-time babysitting, you will have problems. I can make a list of them but I'd probably get banned for using up too much space.

In regards to the structural engineer: Unless you hire an expensive one out of Bangkok you may have some problems in communicating unless you speak and understand Thai with emphasis on construction words, phrases, techniques and requirements. Most (in my experience) Structural Engineers in Thailand will 'overbuild', i.e., use more concrete and steel in the design than necessary. There are Thai standards (matathon) of design for the foundation & structure that most use. For example: The span between support columns will dictate the size of the horizontal beams, usually .20m wide x height (based on the distance between columns). This may be fine but most would-be homeowners these days use lightweight aerated block where the structure standards are designed and built for heavier materials such as concrete block or brick.

Finding a good builder is probably the most difficult and next would be getting a fair price. Make sure the builder you intend on hiring prepares his own BoQ and cross check it with the one your Architect prepares. You will usually find discrepancies that can add up to a substantial sum. If you can find a Project Manager who is also an Architect, understands English fluently, can work with the structural engineer, prepare the plans, details & BoQ then you'll be one step ahead of the game. The fewer people involved the better for obvious reasons.

Not much more I can say without knowing more information about your project.

best of luck....

[geraint999]

Because you're wanting to build a house "out of the ordinary", you will need to find a flexible builder and not one who just 'say's' he can/will build anything you want. It's good to have a contract in both Thai and English to include everything that's questionable, i.e., "No Sub-contractors without owner's consent". It's common practice to meet with you and agree on everything, sign a contract and never see him again as he's passed the job off to someone else and is happy with his commission.

I can't really comment too much since the design is unknown at this time. Bear in mind that if you do want to build something unusual then you or designated project manager or supervisor need to be on-site most of the time to make sure the builder is indeed building the foundation, structure and finishes the way they are detailed in the plans, and of course, stock up on the aspirin.

You might be surprised to know that many builders don't bother looking at the details of the plans and build the way they know how and will cut corners whenever possible. Don't get me wrong, there are good builders out there but you have to babysit them in order to get what you desire and even with full-time babysitting, you will have problems. I can make a list of them but I'd probably get banned for using up too much space.

In regards to the structural engineer: Unless you hire an expensive one out of Bangkok you may have some problems in communicating unless you speak and understand Thai with emphasis on construction words, phrases, techniques and requirements. Most (in my experience) Structural Engineers in Thailand will 'overbuild', i.e., use more concrete and steel in the design than necessary. There are Thai standards (matathon) of design for the foundation & structure that most use. For example: The span between support columns will dictate the size of the horizontal beams, usually .20m wide x height (based on the distance between columns). This may be fine but most would-be homeowners these days use lightweight aerated block where the structure standards are designed and built for heavier materials such as concrete block or brick.

Finding a good builder is probably the most difficult and next would be getting a fair price. Make sure the builder you intend on hiring prepares his own BoQ and cross check it with the one your Architect prepares. You will usually find discrepancies that can add up to a substantial sum. If you can find a Project Manager who is also an Architect, understands English fluently, can work with the structural engineer, prepare the plans, details & BoQ then you'll be one step ahead of the game. The fewer people involved the better for obvious reasons.

Not much more I can say without knowing more information about your project.

best of luck....

Thanks again. Lots of good advice. The design is rather nebulous at this stage, but I've made a couple of decisions. One is to use pile foundations rather than trust Thai builder footings. (The site is old rice paddy.) And the second is to raise the house so there is a crawl space that will enable me to inspect plumbing, at least where it is below the house. Hoping this will minimize the burial of leaks. Oh and yes, I intend to use aerated blocks, so the house will be over designed from what you say.

[JRinger]

Because you're wanting to build a house "out of the ordinary", you will need to find a flexible builder and not one who just 'say's' he can/will build anything you want. It's good to have a contract in both Thai and English to include everything that's questionable, i.e., "No Sub-contractors without owner's consent". It's common practice to meet with you and agree on everything, sign a contract and never see him again as he's passed the job off to someone else and is happy with his commission.

I can't really comment too much since the design is unknown at this time. Bear in mind that if you do want to build something unusual then you or designated project manager or supervisor need to be on-site most of the time to make sure the builder is indeed building the foundation, structure and finishes the way they are detailed in the plans, and of course, stock up on the aspirin.

You might be surprised to know that many builders don't bother looking at the details of the plans and build the way they know how and will cut corners whenever possible. Don't get me wrong, there are good builders out there but you have to babysit them in order to get what you desire and even with full-time babysitting, you will have problems. I can make a list of them but I'd probably get banned for using up too much space.

In regards to the structural engineer: Unless you hire an expensive one out of Bangkok you may have some problems in communicating unless you speak and understand Thai with emphasis on construction words, phrases, techniques and requirements. Most (in my experience) Structural Engineers in Thailand will 'overbuild', i.e., use more concrete and steel in the design than necessary. There are Thai standards (matathon) of design for the foundation & structure that most use. For example: The span between support columns will dictate the size of the horizontal beams, usually .20m wide x height (based on the distance between columns). This may be fine but most would-be homeowners these days use lightweight aerated block where the structure standards are designed and built for heavier materials such as concrete block or brick.

Finding a good builder is probably the most difficult and next would be getting a fair price. Make sure the builder you intend on hiring prepares his own BoQ and cross check it with the one your Architect prepares. You will usually find discrepancies that can add up to a substantial sum. If you can find a Project Manager who is also an Architect, understands English fluently, can work with the structural engineer, prepare the plans, details & BoQ then you'll be one step ahead of the game. The fewer people involved the better for obvious reasons.

Not much more I can say without knowing more information about your project.

best of luck....

Thanks again. Lots of good advice. The design is rather nebulous at this stage, but I've made a couple of decisions. One is to use pile foundations rather than trust Thai builder footings. (The site is old rice paddy.) And the second is to raise the house so there is a crawl space that will enable me to inspect plumbing, at least where it is below the house. Hoping this will minimize the burial of leaks. Oh and yes, I intend to use aerated blocks, so the house will be over designed from what you say.

Lots of really good information from Excaliber, appears to know his stuff.... although it seems your topic of looking for a structural engineer is a bit premature since your design is "nebulous"? You don't even have a plan yet and you're looking for a structural engineer. Kind of like the cart before the horse?