Thai Democrat Rally At Ratchaprasong 'Not Just To Woo Voters'

[webfact]

Rally 'not just to woo voters'

By The Nation

Pheu Thai, reds to issue statement; Democrats want to explain their side of last year's events at Ratchaprasong

The ruling Democrat Party is ready to face the consequences of its plan to rally at Ratchaprasong and express its views on the bloody military crackdown last year, irrespective of whether it is good or bad for its voting results, party strategist Korbsak Sabhavasu said yesterday.

"It would be fine if the people gave their votes to No 1 [Pheu Thai Party] after listening to our side of the story," Korbsak said. "If they agree with us, vote for No 10."

"The winner sets up the government while the loser becomes the opposition, that's the rule of the game," he said.

The party needed to explain its side of the story and voters have the right to know the truth before casting their ballots. Many people directly involved in the incident, such as Jatuporn Promphan and Natthawut Saikua are Pheu Thai Party candidates, he said.

The party insisted on taking the stage at the former battlefield of the red shirts, although political critics and the opposition Pheu Thai Party expressed concerns of possible violence and a deepening of the national divide.

Meanwhile, Pheu Thai and 111 banned former execs of the disbanded Thai Rak Thai will issue a statement today while the red shirts will hold a press conference about the proposed Democrat rally.

Red-shirt leader Thida Thavornset had earlier urged her followers not to be present at Ratchaprasong on the day to avoid violence which may be sparked by provocative Democrat speeches.

The Election Commission (EC) gave the green light to the Democrats to go ahead with their plan to rally at Ratchaprasong tomorrow.

The commission would not issue any warning to the party as the party had the right to speak, but it should be aware of the legal framework and a commitment made by all political parties not to ignite any violence, EC chairman Apichart Sukhagganond said.

Another EC commissioner, Wisut Pothithan, said in a democratic society everybody must have tolerance for each other. The commission does not need to warn anybody as all are mature people, he said. "As long as it is not against the law, everybody could do whatever they wanted," Wisut said.

Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva said he welcomed relatives of six dead rescue staff members to listen to the Democrats' explanations on the bloody incident. The six were killed in Wat Pathum Wanaram temple while providing medical assistance to injured protesters in May last year.

"If they listen to the other side of the truth, they would get a better understanding of the situation," he said. "I'm ready to exchange opinions with the relatives," he said.

The Democrats and Pheu Thai are accusing each other of causing the bloody incident.

The Democrats accuse the opposition of supporting the red-shirt group setting fires in the capital, while Pheu Thai and the red shirts accuse Democrat leaders of ordering the military crackdown that killed dozens of protesters.

Democrat spokesman Buranaj Smutharaks verbally clashed with Pheu Thai's Natthawut over the Democrats' Ratchaprasong plan in a television show yesterday. Buranaj said his party had aimed to extinguish the flames while Natthawut said the government should have used its heart to extinguish the fire, not saliva.

The red shirts have used the bloodshed to antagonise the Democrats almost everywhere during the election campaign trail.

Abhisit, in the deep South yesterday, faced a challenge from a Pattani resident who displayed a poster that said "He is only good at talking".

The Democrat leader yesterday pleaded with his supporters to use social media to mobilise votes for the party as there remained no way to win against the Pheu Thai.

"There are only 50 seats from the South - but we still cannot compete with them in the North and Northeast, so please use all kinds of media you have - Twitter, Facebook, mobile phone to tell voters in the North and the Northeast to vote for us to move the country forward," Abhisit said.

-- The Nation 2011-06-22

[chmiroau]

The truth is not always as it seems. The very meaning of the word truth is changeable, as per the dictionary. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/truth I am sure that if you search any other dictionary then it will show very much the same.

Truth is often a belief that is held by so many people that it is often referred to as the truth. However, as with everything the true fact is that the truth is fluid and changes depending on who is telling the story. This is extremely evident in this youtube video.

Even live first hand witnesses may not see the truth as their attention is often, if not always divided or misdirected. This ploy is exploited by magicians all over the word, and is often used by politicians to bring in new policy without the scrutiny of the press.

Be careful what you accept as the truth.

[webfact]

Truth to come out at Ratchaprasong rally: Suthep

By The Nation

The tomorrow's rally at Ratchaprasong will aim to bring out the truth related to last year's riots in the face of false allegations, Democrat secretary general Suthep Thaugsuban said on Wednesday.

"The Democrats want to outline the facts for the people without any intentions to fuel or rekindle the conflict," he said.

Suthep confirmed he would be one of the lead speakers at the rally because he had first-hand experience on how the violence erupted.

In campaign speeches, Pheu Thai and its supporters attacked Democrat Abhisit Vejjajiva as murderer and the security forces for killing the people, he said, insisting on setting the record straight.

Reacting to the planned rally, Pheu Thai deputy leader Chat Kuldilok said he did not worry about any attempts to link his party to the riots.

Chat said he was disappointed that the country's oldest political party would stoop down to discredit Pheu Thai.

He said the Democrats would end up hurting the feelings of the red shirts even more by choosing to rally where the crackdown happened.

-- The Nation 2011-06-22

[rubl]

I guess the Democrats rallying at Democracy Monument would have given very similar comments.

The Pheu Thai deputy leader Chat Kuldilok seems a bit naive for a politician to say "he was disappointed that the country's oldest political party would stoop down to discredit Pheu Thai".

As for 'hurting the feelings of the red shirts even more by choosing to rally where the crackdown happened', words slowly start to fail me

[whybother]

In campaign speeches, Pheu Thai and its supporters attacked Democrat Abhisit Vejjajiva as murderer and the security forces for killing the people, he said, insisting on setting the record straight.

If PTP bring it up in their campaign speeches, they can't really complain about the Democrats responding.

[animatic]

The truth is not always as it seems. The very meaning of the word truth is changeable, as per the dictionary. http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/truth I am sure that if you search any other dictionary then it will show very much the same.

Truth is often a belief that is held by so many people that it is often referred to as the truth. However, as with everything the true fact is that the truth is fluid and changes depending on who is telling the story. This is extremely evident in this youtube video.

Even live first hand witnesses may not see the truth as their attention is often, if not always divided or misdirected. This ploy is exploited by magicians all over the word, and is often used by politicians to bring in new policy without the scrutiny of the press.

Be careful what you accept as the truth.

Your hypothesis doesn't match more than one part of the definition.

If something comes to be believed to be the truth that doesn't MAKE IT TRUTH.

Truth is simply reality and fact combined,

not willful or misinformed group misperception suddenly changing truth

Propaganda is intended to mask the truth, and replace it with a different version of events or facts, this being accepted by many does in NO WAY change truth, only a groups perceptions of truth.

Sorry no sale.

[animatic]

Red-shirt leader Thida Thavornset had earlier urged her followers not to be present at Ratchaprasong on the day to avoid violence which may be sparked by provocative Democrat speeches.

She said to avoid ...violence which may be sparked by provocative Democrat speeches.

She is a hoot, what a amazingly hypocritical statement.

No doubt not even close in virulence and false content to the Red Leaders 'provocative' speeches.

Her side is trying desperately to live down the violence, or spin it to others and not themselves, surely the last thing the need is a phalanx of red shirts attacking the Dems rally at Rachada.....

[animatic]

In campaign speeches, Pheu Thai and its supporters attacked Democrat Abhisit Vejjajiva as murderer and the security forces for killing the people, he said, insisting on setting the record straight.

If PTP bring it up in their campaign speeches, they can't really complain about the Democrats responding.

Quite so:

Oh we can call you what we like,

but don't hurt our feelings by denying it.

Edited June 22, 2011 by animatic

[geriatrickid]

I guess the Democrats rallying at Democracy Monument would have given very similar comments.

The Pheu Thai deputy leader Chat Kuldilok seems a bit naive for a politician to say "he was disappointed that the country's oldest political party would stoop down to discredit Pheu Thai".

As for 'hurting the feelings of the red shirts even more by choosing to rally where the crackdown happened', words slowly start to fail me

Did the PTP kill any protestors at Democracy monument? I don't think so. Democracy Monument was erected to commemorate the coup d'etat that established a constitutional monarchy. I am surprised you did not criticize the selection of the Democracy Monument on that basis.

The Democrat party holding a rally at the site of where some of its oppenents violently died is rubbing salt into a very open wound. The Democrat party can hold its rallies anywhere it is legally allowed to do so, but the selection of the site shows poor judgement and a lack of sensitivity.

[Thaddeus]

The Democrat party can hold its rallies anywhere it is legally allowed to do so, but the selection of the site shows poor judgement and a lack of sensitivity.

Both of which members of PT have in great abundance.

[animatic]

I guess the Democrats rallying at Democracy Monument would have given very similar comments.

The Pheu Thai deputy leader Chat Kuldilok seems a bit naive for a politician to say "he was disappointed that the country's oldest political party would stoop down to discredit Pheu Thai".

As for 'hurting the feelings of the red shirts even more by choosing to rally where the crackdown happened', words slowly start to fail me

Did the PTP kill any protestors at Democracy monument? I don't think so. Democracy Monument was erected to commemorate the coup d'etat that established a constitutional monarchy. I am surprised you did not criticize the selection of the Democracy Monument on that basis.

The Democrat party holding a rally at the site of where some of its oppenents violently died is rubbing salt into a very open wound. The Democrat party can hold its rallies anywhere it is legally allowed to do so, but the selection of the site shows poor judgement and a lack of sensitivity.

Quite similarly to the PTP / Red Leaders rubbing salt in the wounds of those who died opposing them, and all those who's lives they ended or disrupted as they tried to over throw the government.

Som nom na.

Edited June 22, 2011 by animatic

[rubl]

I guess the Democrats rallying at Democracy Monument would have given very similar comments.

The Pheu Thai deputy leader Chat Kuldilok seems a bit naive for a politician to say "he was disappointed that the country's oldest political party would stoop down to discredit Pheu Thai".

As for 'hurting the feelings of the red shirts even more by choosing to rally where the crackdown happened', words slowly start to fail me

Did the PTP kill any protestors at Democracy monument? I don't think so. Democracy Monument was erected to commemorate the coup d'etat that established a constitutional monarchy. I am surprised you did not criticize the selection of the Democracy Monument on that basis.

The Democrat party holding a rally at the site of where some of its oppenents violently died is rubbing salt into a very open wound. The Democrat party can hold its rallies anywhere it is legally allowed to do so, but the selection of the site shows poor judgement and a lack of sensitivity.

The PTP didn't kill anyone, neither did the Democrats. The UDD and some members maybe, the army in retaliation. Mind you with some 'rallies' of the UDD at Democracy Monument there were enough walking death and placrds with 'people died here'

The Democracrats holding a rally where government opponents died violently and a few soldiers by the way. The selection of the site is as good as Democracy Monument would be, which is a site they didn't choose.

The lack of sensitivity is in UDD leaders protesting 'why here'. Find some PTV broadcasts, play them with sound on full blast level, maybe memories will return.

[webfact]

Democrats' Final Push

With less than two weeks away from the general election, the Democrat party apparently has changed its tactics from defensive to offensive as its party leader Abhisit Vejjiva began to retaliate by referring to last year's red-shirt riots, using that as the final push to draw new support from undecided eligible voters.

The major campaign rally at Ratchaprasong Intersection on June 23 is part of the offensive tactics as the area was the site of the red-shirt mass rally last year. The months long rally crippled the business district, resulted in bloodsheds and arson attacks in various areas of Bangkok. The red-shirt group has been accusing the Prime Minister of being responsible for many deaths during the government's attempt to dispersed the protesters.

Abhisit said that during the Thursday rally, he will discuss the current situation in the country and discuss measures to restore national unity. The Democrat Party secretary-general insisted that he will defend the allegation against the caretaker premier and clarify the deaths of 91 people during last year's riots.

The target audience of the Democrat party for the capaign rally would be 'the silent majority', the eligible voters who remain undecided which candidate or political party to vote for. It is estimated that the silent majority accounts for 30 to 40 percent of the total voters and most of them are in Bangkok, one of the Democrat Party's strongholds. In the 2007 election, the Democrat party won 27 out of 36 seats in the capital.

The 91 deaths related to the 2010 red-shirt rally is a sensitive issue and an investigation by the independent fact-finding committee, chaired by Kanit Na Nakhon, has yet to deliver its finding. In the meantime, the issue has been used to attack the Prime Minister and those involved.

Whether the Democrat Party's clarification on the issue will work in its favor or improve its popularity, and by how much, has yet to be seen. Sadly, the Democrat Party and Abhisit did not make the most out of the two years in office as they were unable to deliver satisfactory results even in the eyes of the urban middle-class most of whom are, or were, in support of the party.

No one would deny that the Democrat-led coalition did not achieve anything significant. Many of their key policies, including the 15-year free education program, the income guarantee scheme for farmers, the elderly allowance, the extension of social security benefits to cover 24 million unregistered workers and etc failed to catch on. Why? Because the coalition government failed to address important and long-standing issues, such as corruption, national reconciliation and the true well-being of farmers.

Editorial, Thai Rath, Page 3, June 21st, 2011

Translated and rewritten by Wacharapol Isaranont

Please note that the views expressed in our "Analysis" segment are translated from local newspaper articles and do not reflect the views of the Thai-ASEAN News Network.

-- Tan Network 2011-06-22

[DP25]

They should have been doing this long ago. Letting the red shirts attempt to take some kind of moral high ground from their terrorist seizure of the city is ridiculous. Red Shirts deliberately set out to create as much bloodshed as possible, by launching terrorists attacks against the city from their barricaded and armed fort, until the army had no choice but to remove them. Reasoning that every government that engaged in conflict with protesters was overthrown, and the government would be forced to step down after the battle was over and the pawns were dead, paving the way for Thaksin to immediately return. Ridiculous that they have until now meekly let them use this as a propaganda vehicle.

[dutchweller]

I guess the Democrats rallying at Democracy Monument would have given very similar comments.

The Pheu Thai deputy leader Chat Kuldilok seems a bit naive for a politician to say "he was disappointed that the country's oldest political party would stoop down to discredit Pheu Thai".

As for 'hurting the feelings of the red shirts even more by choosing to rally where the crackdown happened', words slowly start to fail me

Did the PTP kill any protestors at Democracy monument? I don't think so. Democracy Monument was erected to commemorate the coup d'etat that established a constitutional monarchy. I am surprised you did not criticize the selection of the Democracy Monument on that basis.

The Democrat party holding a rally at the site of where some of its oppenents violently died is rubbing salt into a very open wound. The Democrat party can hold its rallies anywhere it is legally allowed to do so, but the selection of the site shows poor judgement and a lack of sensitivity.

The PTP complaining that it hurts their feelings that Dems Holding a legal political rally at the same place the Red shirts held an illegal Rally with ARMED, Paid, attendance.

Surely points out that the Red Shirts activity , PTP, and the criminal Taksin are all the same War machine hell bent on whatever Taksin wants?

This whole Election is a joke and will end badly whatever way it go's

Any party wins this election by votes (paid for or otherwise)

will in turn be disliked by the loosing side hence the cycle of riots, "protests", killings etc continues.

Thais Learn from an early age if you don't get what you want Kick screen cry and eventually if you make enough of a scene you will get what you want.

You only have to watch the way kids act with parents..

So it is only the adults doing the same as what they learnt gets them results when they were young.

http://www.youtube.c...5vZGfVUeY?rel=0

Edited June 22, 2011 by dutchweller

[MILT]

The truth is not always as it seems. The very meaning of the word truth is changeable, as per the dictionary. http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/truth I am sure that if you search any other dictionary then it will show very much the same.

Truth is often a belief that is held by so many people that it is often referred to as the truth. However, as with everything the true fact is that the truth is fluid and changes depending on who is telling the story. This is extremely evident in this youtube video.

Even live first hand witnesses may not see the truth as their attention is often, if not always divided or misdirected. This ploy is exploited by magicians all over the word, and is often used by politicians to bring in new policy without the scrutiny of the press.

Be careful what you accept as the truth.

A perfectly believable falsehood (sometimes) is more useful than the inexplicable truth.

[thaihome]

...The Democrat party holding a rally at the site of where some of its oppenents violently died is rubbing salt into a very open wound. The Democrat party can hold its rallies anywhere it is legally allowed to do so, but the selection of the site shows poor judgement and a lack of sensitivity.

No, I think the Democrats holding the rally at this very spot is very good judgement. Nobody actually died at this spot. This is almost exactly where the Dems are going to put the stage.

Most of the people that were shot, were shot in this situation

And this is generaly who they were

If the PTP wants to commemorate the memory of the riots, this is the location they should do so.

[hanuman1]

I guess the Democrats rallying at Democracy Monument would have given very similar comments.

The Pheu Thai deputy leader Chat Kuldilok seems a bit naive for a politician to say "he was disappointed that the country's oldest political party would stoop down to discredit Pheu Thai".

As for 'hurting the feelings of the red shirts even more by choosing to rally where the crackdown happened', words slowly start to fail me

Did the PTP kill any protestors at Democracy monument? I don't think so. Democracy Monument was erected to commemorate the coup d'etat that established a constitutional monarchy. I am surprised you did not criticize the selection of the Democracy Monument on that basis.

The Democrat party holding a rally at the site of where some of its oppenents violently died is rubbing salt into a very open wound. The Democrat party can hold its rallies anywhere it is legally allowed to do so, but the selection of the site shows poor judgement and a lack of sensitivity.

The PTP didn't kill anyone, neither did the Democrats. The UDD and some members maybe, the army in retaliation. Mind you with some 'rallies' of the UDD at Democracy Monument there were enough walking death and placrds with 'people died here'

The Democracrats holding a rally where government opponents died violently and a few soldiers by the way. The selection of the site is as good as Democracy Monument would be, which is a site they didn't choose.

The lack of sensitivity is in UDD leaders protesting 'why here'. Find some PTV broadcasts, play them with sound on full blast level, maybe memories will return.

The PTP didn't kill anyone, neither did the Democrats. The UDD and some members maybe, the army in retaliation.

Thanks for making this distinction between the PTP and UDD. It's just another example of how the lazy, disingenuous and deliberately devisive formula trumpeted by the military cheerleaders: PTP = UDD = Thaksin is flawed and serves only to disrupt constructive debate by willfully ignoring the pertinent differences between these players.

You have done this thread a good turn, in my opinion.

Edited June 22, 2011 by hanuman1

[Who, me ?]

I guess the Democrats rallying at Democracy Monument would have given very similar comments.

The Pheu Thai deputy leader Chat Kuldilok seems a bit naive for a politician to say "he was disappointed that the country's oldest political party would stoop down to discredit Pheu Thai".

As for 'hurting the feelings of the red shirts even more by choosing to rally where the crackdown happened', words slowly start to fail me

Did the PTP kill any protestors at Democracy monument? I don't think so. Democracy Monument was erected to commemorate the coup d'etat that established a constitutional monarchy. I am surprised you did not criticize the selection of the Democracy Monument on that basis.

The Democrat party holding a rally at the site of where some of its oppenents violently died is rubbing salt into a very open wound. The Democrat party can hold its rallies anywhere it is legally allowed to do so, but the selection of the site shows poor judgement and a lack of sensitivity.

Rubbing salt. Poor judgement. Lack of sensitivity. Can I ask you, Geriatrickid where were you last year when the reds were around, protesting, rioting, provoking, harassing, threatening, shooting, burning, killing? Do you think they were showing extremely smart judgement? Do you think they were full of sensitivity? If you were around, you would have seen how these reds acted. So honestly, rubbing salt on their wounds is only justice, and a very light one. Don't make yourself look like a fool, you certainly are better than your post shows....

[tigermonkey]

The truth is not always as it seems. The very meaning of the word truth is changeable, as per the dictionary. http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/truth I am sure that if you search any other dictionary then it will show very much the same.

Truth is often a belief that is held by so many people that it is often referred to as the truth. However, as with everything the true fact is that the truth is fluid and changes depending on who is telling the story. This is extremely evident in this youtube video.

Even live first hand witnesses may not see the truth as their attention is often, if not always divided or misdirected. This ploy is exploited by magicians all over the word, and is often used by politicians to bring in new policy without the scrutiny of the press.

Be careful what you accept as the truth.

Your hypothesis doesn't match more than one part of the definition.

If something comes to be believed to be the truth that doesn't MAKE IT TRUTH.

Truth is simply reality and fact combined,

not willful or misinformed group misperception suddenly changing truth

Propaganda is intended to mask the truth, and replace it with a different version of events or facts, this being accepted by many does in NO WAY change truth, only a groups perceptions of truth.

Sorry no sale.

Unfortunately, your version of truth is at odds with that of K. Abhisit.

You state ( quite correctly) that " Truth is simply reality and fact combined " -- in other words 'one truth' and no " different versions of events".

K. Abhisit says that "If they listen to the other side of the truth' . How many sides are there ? Is truth to be a two edged sword or a polygon ?

One can only conclude that the rally is about " Propaganda....to mask the truth "

[thaihome]

Thanks for making this distinction between the PTP and UDD. It's just another example of how the lazy, disingenuous and deliberately devisive formula trumpeted by the military cheerleaders: PTP = UDD = Thaksin is flawed and serves only to disrupt constructive debate by willfully ignoring the pertinent differences between these players.

You have done this thread a good turn, in my opinion.

How do explain the number of UDD leaders on the PTP party list? Tell me again about the pertinent differences in the players?

TH

[webfact]

Democrat Sec-Gen to Take Stage at Downtown Rally

The Democrat Party secretary-general says he will take the stage during the party's major election campaign rally at Ratchaprasong Intersection tomorrow, to clarify the allegations against the prime minister.

Democrat Party Secretary-General Suthep Thaugsuban confirmed that he is taking the stage in the party's major campaign rally at Ratchaprasong Intersection tomorrow.

He said he wants to counteract the Pheu Thai Party's allegations that Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva ordered the military and security forces to kill red-shirt protesters during last year's riots.

Suthep challenged the Pheu Thai Party to file a petition with the Electoral Commission if it is offended by his speech.

However, he said he believes there will not be such a problem, as everything he will say is based on facts.

The Democrat insisted that the rally is not intended to provoke conflict, but rather to present the truth to the public and tell them that Abhisit has fallen victim to unfair accusations.

In response to claims that the rally is aimed at instigating a disturbance so that the election has to be aborted, Suthep said the government and his party do not intend to stall the election at all.

-- Tan Network 2011-06-22

[hanuman1]

Thanks for making this distinction between the PTP and UDD. It's just another example of how the lazy, disingenuous and deliberately devisive formula trumpeted by the military cheerleaders: PTP = UDD = Thaksin is flawed and serves only to disrupt constructive debate by willfully ignoring the pertinent differences between these players.

You have done this thread a good turn, in my opinion.

How do explain the number of UDD leaders on the PTP party list? Tell me again about the pertinent differences in the players?

TH

There are some UDD leaders on the PTP party list. Others on the PTP party list have nothing to do with the UDD. This is one reason why the PTP is NOT the same as the UDD. Does this make sense to you?

[jdinasia]

Thanks for making this distinction between the PTP and UDD. It's just another example of how the lazy, disingenuous and deliberately devisive formula trumpeted by the military cheerleaders: PTP = UDD = Thaksin is flawed and serves only to disrupt constructive debate by willfully ignoring the pertinent differences between these players.

You have done this thread a good turn, in my opinion.

Rubl (and you) are only partially correct. Since obviously running Jatuporn (PTP MP) and Natthuwut and Arisaman's wife and so many more red shirt leaders as party-list MP's, --- conclusively links the PTP and UDD together. That Thaksin is the controlling force behind both is obvious to anyone with even a smidgen of intellectual honesty.

[animatic]

Thanks for making this distinction between the PTP and UDD. It's just another example of how the lazy, disingenuous and deliberately devisive formula trumpeted by the military cheerleaders: PTP = UDD = Thaksin is flawed and serves only to disrupt constructive debate by willfully ignoring the pertinent differences between these players.

You have done this thread a good turn, in my opinion.

Rubl (and you) are only partially correct. Since obviously running Jatuporn (PTP MP) and Natthuwut and Arisaman's wife and so many more red shirt leaders as party-list MP's, --- conclusively links the PTP and UDD together. That Thaksin is the controlling force behind both is obvious to anyone with even a smidgen of intellectual honesty.

It seems smidgens are becoming harder to find as the election draws near....

[jdinasia]

Thanks for making this distinction between the PTP and UDD. It's just another example of how the lazy, disingenuous and deliberately devisive formula trumpeted by the military cheerleaders: PTP = UDD = Thaksin is flawed and serves only to disrupt constructive debate by willfully ignoring the pertinent differences between these players.

You have done this thread a good turn, in my opinion.

Rubl (and you) are only partially correct. Since obviously running Jatuporn (PTP MP) and Natthuwut and Arisaman's wife and so many more red shirt leaders as party-list MP's, --- conclusively links the PTP and UDD together. That Thaksin is the controlling force behind both is obvious to anyone with even a smidgen of intellectual honesty.

It seems smidgens are becoming harder to find as the election draws near....

They have always been a bit hard to find in Thailand. Tops is sold out completely

[animatic]

The truth is not always as it seems. The very meaning of the word truth is changeable, as per the dictionary. http://www.merriam-w...ictionary/truth I am sure that if you search any other dictionary then it will show very much the same.

Truth is often a belief that is held by so many people that it is often referred to as the truth. However, as with everything the true fact is that the truth is fluid and changes depending on who is telling the story. This is extremely evident in this youtube video.

Even live first hand witnesses may not see the truth as their attention is often, if not always divided or misdirected. This ploy is exploited by magicians all over the word, and is often used by politicians to bring in new policy without the scrutiny of the press.

Be careful what you accept as the truth.

Your hypothesis doesn't match more than one part of the definition.

If something comes to be believed to be the truth that doesn't MAKE IT TRUTH.

Truth is simply reality and fact combined,

not willful or misinformed group misperception suddenly changing truth

Propaganda is intended to mask the truth, and replace it with a different version of events or facts, this being accepted by many does in NO WAY change truth, only a groups perceptions of truth.

Sorry no sale.

Unfortunately, your version of truth is at odds with that of K. Abhisit.

You state ( quite correctly) that " Truth is simply reality and fact combined " -- in other words 'one truth' and no " different versions of events".

K. Abhisit says that "If they listen to the other side of the truth' . How many sides are there ? Is truth to be a two edged sword or a polygon ?

One can only conclude that the rally is about " Propaganda....to mask the truth "

Or counter-propaganda to reveal the truth, differentiated from anti-propaganda or inverse-propaganda which is hiding one false truth with another false truth.

One way to look at it is.

5 people see an incident, like a shooting,

from 5 different angles

and 5 levels of attention to the exact time and place of the shooting

and 5 different reactions and directions of view AFTER the shooting.

If they are questioned separately by 5 different statement recorders,

there will be 5 different statements each truthful to THEIR VIEW,

but NONE THE TRUTH absolutely.

Some might actually have stated the actual truth, thney had the most accurate view point and least potential bias, and others only part of it, and some completely false perceptions of it accidentally or by intentional bias. BUT none of this means that the totality of their statements doesn't reveal a total and unchangeable truth.

If an arbitrary leader only accepts 1 partial versions and decides

THAT is the only good one, because it furthers his interest the most,

and this is promulgated everywhere, most who see it might be lead to believe This is 'the truth' when it in reality is not.

The truth is immutable, renditions of the truth are not.

So hearing fairly stated all versions of an incident

'will more closely reveal a accurate truth than relaying on

one sole view to the exclusion of all others.

So Abhisit is saying, via a not necessarily accurate translation of his words, that the version of truth stated so far is incomplete and doesn't show the whole'Truth of the story' even if it is believed to do so by some.

Is this more clear?

Edited June 22, 2011 by animatic

[rubl]

The PTP didn't kill anyone, neither did the Democrats. The UDD and some members maybe, the army in retaliation.

Thanks for making this distinction between the PTP and UDD. It's just another example of how the lazy, disingenuous and deliberately devisive formula trumpeted by the military cheerleaders: PTP = UDD = Thaksin is flawed and serves only to disrupt constructive debate by willfully ignoring the pertinent differences between these players.

You have done this thread a good turn, in my opinion.

Mind you it ain't easy with at least a dozen UDD leaders now on the PTP party list as candidates for the coming elections. A number of them have played prominently in PTV shoutcasts from the main stage at Ratchaprasong April - May 2010

Edited June 22, 2011 by rubl

[hanuman1]

Thanks for making this distinction between the PTP and UDD. It's just another example of how the lazy, disingenuous and deliberately devisive formula trumpeted by the military cheerleaders: PTP = UDD = Thaksin is flawed and serves only to disrupt constructive debate by willfully ignoring the pertinent differences between these players.

You have done this thread a good turn, in my opinion.

Rubl (and you) are only partially correct. Since obviously running Jatuporn (PTP MP) and Natthuwut and Arisaman's wife and so many more red shirt leaders as party-list MP's, --- conclusively links the PTP and UDD together. That Thaksin is the controlling force behind both is obvious to anyone with even a smidgen of intellectual honesty.

Of course the PTP and UDD have links. Who said that they haven't? This does not mean that they are the same, does it? You keep going on about honesty whilst at the same time constantly peddling this lie.

You know exactly what you are doing. You simplify your analysis to exclude relevant details so you can come up with pithy-looking formulas to more easily convince others to think the same way as you. You are welcome to your crusade, but don't lecture others about intellectual honesty, please!

Edited June 22, 2011 by hanuman1

[jdinasia]

Thanks for making this distinction between the PTP and UDD. It's just another example of how the lazy, disingenuous and deliberately devisive formula trumpeted by the military cheerleaders: PTP = UDD = Thaksin is flawed and serves only to disrupt constructive debate by willfully ignoring the pertinent differences between these players.

You have done this thread a good turn, in my opinion.

Rubl (and you) are only partially correct. Since obviously running Jatuporn (PTP MP) and Natthuwut and Arisaman's wife and so many more red shirt leaders as party-list MP's, --- conclusively links the PTP and UDD together. That Thaksin is the controlling force behind both is obvious to anyone with even a smidgen of intellectual honesty.

Of course the PTP and UDD have links. Who said that they haven't? This does not mean that they are the same, does it? You keep going on about honesty whilst at the same time constantly peddling this lie.

You know exactly what you are doing. You simplify your analysis to exclude relevant details so you can come up with pithy-looking formulas to more easily convince others to think the same way as you. You are welcome to your crusade, but don't lecture others about intellectual honesty, please!

Which relevant details am I leaving out? That "Thaksin Thinks PTP does" is an official slogan of PTP? That PTP has placed all of the top leaders of the UDD/redshirts that were active during the redshirt insurrection in 2010 on the party-list? (Pardon -- there may be a couple of leaders not on the party-list like Arisaman -- his wife is on it since Arisaman is on the run from the law -- there may be a couple more without college degree's, I am not sure). That Thaksin is the real leader behind the redshirts? ----

They aren't linked --- they are part of the same 3 backed beast.