New Work Permit Requirements From The Labor Department

[lopburi3]

We are not talking about immigration in this thread - work permits are a labor department requirement. And yes we have seen reports of false paperwork being found and jail/court actions being taken. False paperwork is considered a very serious crime by all accounts I have read.

[tombkk]

Do Thai Immigration actually chase up and verify anyones degree when it is presented anyway?Would love to know that one if anyone out there can shed light?

They can if they want to. Why, are you planning to fake a degree? If so, I think your employer will be more interested, as it is his duty to check whether you really are who you say you are.

[Scott]

The programs I run require that degrees be verified. We also have to submit the transcripts for the degree and they are harder to fake.

On one occasion, the Ministry of Education questioned the authenticity of 3 degrees--this was prior to having to verify them. All three were fake. How or why they knew, I have no idea, but out of a rather large number, they found them. Two people were fired (no charges filed) and the third was allowed to continue to work because he did have a degree, but had lost it and had one made up. His information was submitted to his school and they confirmed he had a degree.

We also had a Thai employee who forged an obscure Thai document in an application for an extension of stay. The employee was held at Immigration (Suan Phlu), but not in detention. He spent a long, long night sitting their while they demanded 'bail' money for his release. It took a year for him to be exonerated and the Thai office assistant to be charged. She, by the way, did spend some time in jail.

Fake documents are not a good idea.

Added: The immigration is the first line of defense against fraud, then by the Ministry of Education (for teachers). I am not sure if the Labor people inspect too carefully.

Edited June 25, 2011 by Scott
added

[TheWalkingMan]

but if an employee has an STD, then there's questions about their morals;

[BangrakBob]

There is no requirement for a degree to get a WP.

If one however claims to have a degree then one has to be able to show the proper certs showing it.

Easy as pie.

Always has been a requirement

It hasn't, what TAWP says is correct

[Geekfreaklover]

The programs I run require that degrees be verified. We also have to submit the transcripts for the degree and they are harder to fake.

On one occasion, the Ministry of Education questioned the authenticity of 3 degrees--this was prior to having to verify them. All three were fake. How or why they knew, I have no idea, but out of a rather large number, they found them. Two people were fired (no charges filed) and the third was allowed to continue to work because he did have a degree, but had lost it and had one made up. His information was submitted to his school and they confirmed he had a degree.

We also had a Thai employee who forged an obscure Thai document in an application for an extension of stay. The employee was held at Immigration (Suan Phlu), but not in detention. He spent a long, long night sitting their while they demanded 'bail' money for his release. It took a year for him to be exonerated and the Thai office assistant to be charged. She, by the way, did spend some time in jail.

Fake documents are not a good idea.

Added: The immigration is the first line of defense against fraud, then by the Ministry of Education (for teachers). I am not sure if the Labor people inspect too carefully.

We also had a Thai employee who forged an obscure Thai document in an application for an extension of stay. The employee was held at Immigration (Suan Phlu), but not in detention. He spent a long, long night sitting their while they demanded 'bail' money for his release. It took a year for him to be exonerated and the Thai office assistant to be charged. She, by the way, did spend some time in jail.

I'm probably being thick here. But it's not clear.

The Thai in question would not need an extension to stay, being as he is Thai. Did he forge a document for a non-Thai employee that was working with him? Or did him and/or his assistant sign a forged document?

What happened?

Edited June 25, 2011 by Geekfreaklover

[kurnell]

What a load of balls. I will worry about this next March when my work permit is renewed. My lawyer does everything and I have never had to supply anything apart from a 100 baht medical certificate

[MacWalen]

Sounds reasonable.

[edwardandtubs]

There has never been a requirement for a syphilis blood test. You just need a medical form saying you don't have a long list of fatal diseases, including stage 3 syphilis. A syphilis blood test is no more necessary than an elephantiasis blood test.

[Scott]

Sorry for the confusion. A foreign employee was the applicant; the Thai employee was responsible for preparing all the paperwork. She forged a document. He, the foreign employee, was held. We argued, and the immigration seemed to agree, that the foreign employee would not be able to forge a document in a language he didn't know. He had been in the country less than two weeks.

He was, however, charged. After the investigation, the Thai employee was charged, but it took a little over a year for the court to dismiss his charges. He had already received his second extension of stay when he was called back to Court for the dismissal. His passport was held by immigration, which would release it to him for short periods of time if he needed it, but then it had to be returned to them. He got his passport to leave the country for a visa run and to open a bank account, for example.

The Thai assistant who forged the document did do time in jail, although I think it was very brief. She had been fired or resigned, so the actual outcome of her case is a little unclear.

[Arkady]

Just asking question about work related and syphilis.

My friend sign a 1 year contract in one of the intl. school in Bangkok, after working for 7 weeks, she was terminated because the school found out that she has a syphilis after doing a medical check up for work permit. The school ask her to resign than to terminate her but she cant get anything from the school. The question is , when you get a desease, the contract become invalid? What she will need to do now?

Foreigners' employment contracts are always either explicitly or implicitly subject to successful work permit applications because it is illegal to employ some one without a work permit. I think a Thai court would accept the employer's argument that the contract was invalidated because she was ineligible for a work permit, notwithstanding that it is a disease that is not going to passed on to any one at the school who doesn't have sex with her and that it can be cured easily within a couple of weeks. Anyway, she could only sue for damages in the civil court. The Labour Court which can order reinstatement couldn't take the case because she was not employed.

What will she need to do now? First of all get the syphilis cured, then look for another job.

For anyone who hasn't been totally celibate, it is probably worth investing 500 baht in your own syphilis test a few weeks before the work permit test.

[Arkady]

There has never been a requirement for a syphilis blood test. You just need a medical form saying you don't have a long list of fatal diseases, including stage 3 syphilis. A syphilis blood test is no more necessary than an elephantiasis blood test.

You are right in saying that the wording doesn't explicitly call for a blood test to certify that the applicant doesn't have tertiary syphilis and that this could be certified through physical examination without a blood test. However, the DoE only accepts a negative blood test as evidence that tertiary syphilis is not present. Thus their working regulations effectively require applicants to be free of primary and secondary stage syphilis as well.

The disease has been on the increase, and some people might find out they've got it and have the chance of avoiding ending up like Henry VIII, due to this admittedly bizarre and xenophobic regulation.

[Arkady]

It would have been very surprising indeed if they would have made it faster, more transparent, more fair (like allowing foreigners to access the social system if they pay taxes or to allow 100% ownership if we already have to come up with 100% of the money) - but NO, everything just gets more complicated and xenophobic.

You have full access to the social security system, if you pay social tax which is compulsory for all employees now, including company directors since last year. You get a social security card which you can use for medical treatment and you can claim a pension with at least 15 years' contribution in the unlikely event there is anything left in the fund to pay out by then.

There are other beautiful countries around which welcome foreign capital (be it financial or intellectual capital) with open arms, and where at least 50% of the population can speak more English than 'elo weh do you cam fom'.

It is pretty obvious which elements of Thai society you associate with. You would probably find conversation with them easier, if you troubled to learn the language.

If you are a director in Thai company you can not enroll in Social security!

George, I thought this too and challenged my accountant on it but she came back with the information that it was made compulsory for all executive directors to be enrolled in the scheme since last year. If you can provide a citation to prove this is not the case, I would appreciate it.

[DickFarang]

I would imagine "New applicants for work permits will now be required to provide proof of their Education Certificate (BA, BS, MA, MS, PhD) and a reference letter from the previous employer confirming employment." is going to be a big problem for bar and restaurant owners who don't have a university education.

And for many "English teachers", especially if they are refuse collectors or lorry drivers in their home country.

Edited June 26, 2011 by DickFarang

[DickFarang]

Just asking question about work related and syphilis.

My friend sign a 1 year contract in one of the intl. school in Bangkok, after working for 7 weeks, she was terminated because the school found out that she has a syphilis after doing a medical check up for work permit. The school ask her to resign than to terminate her but she cant get anything from the school. The question is , when you get a desease, the contract become invalid? What she will need to do now?

Anywhere else I would say she has a suit against the school for firing her for having a medical condition. But this is Thailand and I doubt she has as much recourse.

I don't think this is right in any case.

She should have seen a private doctor and not the schools doctor... then she could have had treatment and then NOT have syphilis, no problem. It is a totally treatable disease and not communicable to students except via sexual contact.

If you ever had syphilis in your life it can always be detected in your blood, no matter by which doctor.

Edited June 26, 2011 by DickFarang

[tombkk]

If you ever had syphilis in your life it can always be detected in your blood, no matter by which doctor.

Probably, but the question is not whether it's detectable, the question is what the doctor writes in the certificate...

[tombkk]

If you are a director in Thai company you can not enroll in Social security!

George, I thought this too and challenged my accountant on it but she came back with the information that it was made compulsory for all executive directors to be enrolled in the scheme since last year. If you can provide a citation to prove this is not the case, I would appreciate it.

I am a director in my company, and I have social security.

[swerver]

so i'm wondering if you're married to a Thai and don't have a uni degree, you'll never work here legally? is that right?

This is what I am baffled about.. And would like Sunbelt or someone to clarify.

Are they really saying they dont want anyone to invest in Thailand who doesnt have a degree ??

I am totally unaffected by this, but am baffled if thats what they are asking for.

Interesting reading all the kibitzing about Thai WP.

Analyzing all that is being said in this Forum about Thai WP it is most obvious that the writers have ONLY tried to apply for a WP in Thailand.

If all you writers have worked like myself for some fifty years all over the world Indonesia, Australia, New Zealand, USA, Iran, Italy, Turkey, Iraq, South Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, Singapore, Malasia, Saudi Arabia, may have forgotten one or two, but you get the idea. REAL EXPAT. I left my country of birth 1948 and haven't lived there ever since. Purely by circumstance, not because I wanted to, I landed up in Thailand in retirement due to me having a few residences, all paid for as left over from working in Thailand, and surrounding countries. What Thailand is doing is nothing more and nothing less than all these countries named above did to me in one form or another. When HIV/AIDS came on the world scene I already had worked in Saudi Arabia for five years and then all of a sudden at the next work visa renewal I had to take the full blown test for HIV/AIDS. With another country, it demanded me to have the passport of the country of the contracting company's country, which of course the company through, lets say pulling strings, obtained for me from his country. Another country I worked in I could not have their visa in my passport because there were countries which would not let me in their country with such a visa. So their visa was on a piece of paper which I presented with my passport when entering that country. And so it went on-and-on during my fifty year working life as an expat. And all you guys writing in this forum think you have problems. LOL and have a nice day in LOS. As Trink always said TIT

Edited June 26, 2011 by swerver

[laolover]

It's pretty obvious that they want us here if we can 'prove our worth' so to speak but don't want us here if we can't!! Also, maybe fewer people will bother to get a work permit and this will lead to extra 'revenue' to the usual suspects when finding Aliens working without said permit!!!

Thailand, still proving to be ultra Nationalistic, inward looking and backwards, just what one should expect from a 3rd world mentality with an old elite in control.

Before you lament over what you call the 3rd world mentality - spend a few thoughts on how it works in any of the 1st worlds. Can anybody just come and get a work permit without proving by any means that he is qualified for the job? If you apply for a job in your home country, do you mention your degree in your resume and attach some documents to it?

Some people bash on Thailand as a 3rd world country every and each time it makes a step closer to the first world.

Yeh it is getting closer to a corporate run 1st world isnt it.....only allow the corporate suck ups to work OR the totally uneducated Laos, Burmese and cambodian. GEE where would all these Thai officaials and corporate (FARANG and THAI) workers be without the household help from Myanmar! Driver,cook,housekeeper,Nanny,gardner etc.....WHERE would all the thai companies emplyoying labor to build LARGE buildings and maintain them be without the totally uneducated asian foreign workers. Several of our townhomes built by AP used at least 70 percent Burmese labor.

This brings me to my final point......I guess if I can t work here anymore, we (my wife and I) will lose any of the buildings with a mortgage (fortunately only a couple), but I will still need to be employed somehow to continue my sons International school education, car repairs, home repairs etc etc etc...if forcing dedicated husbands and fathers who pay tons of tax.....many many times more than most Thai workers, to despair, is making a step closer to (1st world) WHATEVER the Heck that is!!!! Then I surely do not belong in a first world corporate run country. Its a sad statement after 21 years here......and to bloody old to start over again.

Surely these new laws must not apply to small business owners who invest 2,000,000 baht or more capital, pay wages taxes and benefits for Thai employees and on top of it all VAT tax and emploment tax!!!!!!

Clarification would be nice,

[tombkk]

Here is your clarification: The most significant change is the size of the photograph you have to bring. How does that effect your son's elite education?

[saengsureeya]

Here is your clarification: The most significant change is the size of the photograph you have to bring. How does that effect your son's elite education?

[Misty]

If you are a director in Thai company you can not enroll in Social security!

George, I thought this too and challenged my accountant on it but she came back with the information that it was made compulsory for all executive directors to be enrolled in the scheme since last year. If you can provide a citation to prove this is not the case, I would appreciate it.

I am a director in my company, and I have social security.

I'm an executive director in my company, and several years ago I was prevented from registering for Thai social security. As Arkady says the laws have changed, I've asked our staff to check if the executive directors in our firm now need to register. Will post whatever they come back with.

Tom, are you an executive director in the company where you're registered for social security? If so, when did you register?

[swerver]

If you are a director in Thai company you can not enroll in Social security!

George, I thought this too and challenged my accountant on it but she came back with the information that it was made compulsory for all executive directors to be enrolled in the scheme since last year. If you can provide a citation to prove this is not the case, I would appreciate it.

I am a director in my company, and I have social security.

I'm an executive director in my company, and several years ago I was prevented from registering for Thai social security. As Arkady says the laws have changed, I've asked our staff to check if the executive directors in our firm now need to register. Will post whatever they come back with.

Tom, are you an executive director in the company where you're registered for social security? If so, when did you register?

Good luck to you with your Thai Social Security as a farang.

This can be changed with the stroke of a pen one way or another.

Reminds me of Saudi Arabia were Saudi Social Security WAS also a requirement for foreigners working in Saudi Arabia. That means ALL foreigners regardless of skin color.

One morning King Fahd woke up with whatever it was he woke up with, but with the stroke of his pen he eliminated that requirement. The company 50% and the foreign employees’ 50%. Down the rat hole, over and out. It was through the relented pressure from India and the Philippines governments who did have many thousands of their citizens in the Saudi system, many on pension which also went down the drain, that Fahd after a number of years relented to return the employees’ 50%. What about the employers’ 50%? Think again. King Fahd just pocketed that. What about the interest on the employees’ 50%? From an Arab country, you must be dreaming. They don’t have interest, it is not allowed by Sharia Law. That is why one of the Royal Family is a Board Member of City Bank so they can reap in the interest. Remember, were there is a will there is a way, that is if and when you are part of the in crowed. Have a nice time with Thai Social Security; I wouldn’t hold my breath, I may turn blue around the gills.

[Arkady]

Just asking question about work related and syphilis.

My friend sign a 1 year contract in one of the intl. school in Bangkok, after working for 7 weeks, she was terminated because the school found out that she has a syphilis after doing a medical check up for work permit. The school ask her to resign than to terminate her but she cant get anything from the school. The question is , when you get a desease, the contract become invalid? What she will need to do now?

Anywhere else I would say she has a suit against the school for firing her for having a medical condition. But this is Thailand and I doubt she has as much recourse.

I don't think this is right in any case.

She should have seen a private doctor and not the schools doctor... then she could have had treatment and then NOT have syphilis, no problem. It is a totally treatable disease and not communicable to students except via sexual contact.

What you are overlooking is that she cannot file a suit for unfair dismissal because she was working illegally without a work permit. An unfair dismissal suit would have to be heard by the Labour Court and, as such, would have to be regarded as a suicide action because she and the school would be prosecuted for violation of the Working of Aliens Act. I think that most developed countries would also prosecute in such a case, although they wouldn't have such weird anti-syphilis laws. If they did, the suit would have to be against the government not the employer.

A more interesting legal situation would arise in a case where an employee caught syphilis after already getting a work permit and was then fired for not being able to renew the work permit. Also, as others have pointed out, patients who have been cured of syphilis can still test positive for the basic VDRL blood test. Doctors use more sophisticated alternative tests to check that treatment has been effective. Therefore those who have been cured might need to have a different test done. If the DoE only accepts the VDRL test, they may have no alternative but to pay a clinic under the counter for a fake certificate. The VDRL is not particularly reliable anyway, as it can give false negatives in the first stage and false positives in the case of mononucleosis and lupus as well cured syphilis cases. The whole syphilis test thing is very extremely badly thought out by the Ministry of Labour and gives a very strong impression of having the sole intention of causing inconvenience and humiliation to the expat workers without a thread of discernible benefit to the country, except hole in the wall medical clinics.

Edited June 27, 2011 by Arkady

[Arkady]

Good luck to you with your Thai Social Security as a farang.

This can be changed with the stroke of a pen one way or another.

Reminds me of Saudi Arabia were Saudi Social Security WAS also a requirement for foreigners working in Saudi Arabia. That means ALL foreigners regardless of skin color.

One morning King Fahd woke up with whatever it was he woke up with, but with the stroke of his pen he eliminated that requirement. The company 50% and the foreign employees’ 50%. Down the rat hole, over and out. It was through the relented pressure from India and the Philippines governments who did have many thousands of their citizens in the Saudi system, many on pension which also went down the drain, that Fahd after a number of years relented to return the employees’ 50%. What about the employers’ 50%? Think again. King Fahd just pocketed that. What about the interest on the employees’ 50%? From an Arab country, you must be dreaming. They don’t have interest, it is not allowed by Sharia Law. That is why one of the Royal Family is a Board Member of City Bank so they can reap in the interest. Remember, were there is a will there is a way, that is if and when you are part of the in crowed. Have a nice time with Thai Social Security; I wouldn’t hold my breath, I may turn blue around the gills.

I have no idea what was the structure of the scheme in Saudi or why foreigners got excluded from it and am none the wiser after reading this comment which perhaps would have been better posted in a thread about expats working in the Middle East. However, one thing that needs to be made clear is that the Social Security system, which predated the formation of the NHSO (that operates the gold card scheme), is on a very shaky financial foundation and there is no obvious way that it will be able to meet its pension obligations without a major infusion of additional funding, even though it is just about managing to cover its medical obligations.

As it stands, there is no obvious reason why the government would want to exclude foreign workers from the scheme because the vast majority of them are never going to meet the requirements to draw their pensions from the fund which requires 15 years of contributions and no facility to draw your pension from overseas. The major issue facing the government regarding social security for foreign workers is not the expat professional workers but the 4 million unskilled workers from neighbouring countries, three quarters of whom are undocumented. The government has already learned the hard way that denying healthcare to these people constitutes a highly dangerous health hazard to Thai citizens, particularly those living in border areas, due to untreated infectious diseases, not to mention the loss of productively to Thai employers.

In sum, that the Social Security scheme will be restructured at some point within the next 10 years is a stone cold racing certainty because it will otherwise have to default on its pension obligations. However, I would be willing to bet that the restructure will not exclude foreign workers. It is easy enough to restructure it in a way that expat workers as a whole remain net contributors, rather than net beneficiaries. So why cut them out?

Edited June 27, 2011 by Arkady

[Misty]

I'm an executive director in my company, and several years ago I was prevented from registering for Thai social security. As Arkady says the laws have changed, I've asked our staff to check if the executive directors in our firm now need to register. Will post whatever they come back with.

Good luck to you with your Thai Social Security as a farang.

This can be changed with the stroke of a pen one way or another.

Reminds me of Saudi Arabia were Saudi Social Security WAS also a requirement for foreigners working in Saudi Arabia. That means ALL foreigners regardless of skin color.

One morning King Fahd woke up with whatever it was he woke up with, but with the stroke of his pen he eliminated that requirement. The company 50% and the foreign employees’ 50%. Down the rat hole, over and out. It was through the relented pressure from India and the Philippines governments who did have many thousands of their citizens in the Saudi system, many on pension which also went down the drain, that Fahd after a number of years relented to return the employees’ 50%. What about the employers’ 50%? Think again. King Fahd just pocketed that. What about the interest on the employees’ 50%? From an Arab country, you must be dreaming. They don’t have interest, it is not allowed by Sharia Law. That is why one of the Royal Family is a Board Member of City Bank so they can reap in the interest. Remember, were there is a will there is a way, that is if and when you are part of the in crowed. Have a nice time with Thai Social Security; I wouldn’t hold my breath, I may turn blue around the gills.

I think this thread is about Thai work permit & visa issues - not retirement planning. My interest is whether executive directors are now required to register and contribute to Thai Social Security - in particular, I don't want the fact that I'm not registered to be an issue the next time I renew my work permit and one year business visa extention.

Personally, I'd rather continue not to contribute. Certainly would not look for a payout as part of any retirement planning, but in any event thanks for the warning

[laolover]

Here is your clarification: The most significant change is the size of the photograph you have to bring. How does that effect your son's elite education?

Oh thanks. Maybe I will move to esahn and enroll my son in a thai government school, or american christian school. I have great dreams (as does he at 5) of becoming a bulldozer operator or cleaning bathrooms in a hotel. Shame on those elite schools! Cheers Bud! I already have larger size photos but thanks for the winning tip! Cleared everything right up for me.

[samran]

Here is your clarification: The most significant change is the size of the photograph you have to bring. How does that effect your son's elite education?

whinging for whingings sake.

A common Thai Visa affliction.

[tombkk]

Here is your clarification: The most significant change is the size of the photograph you have to bring. How does that effect your son's elite education?

Oh thanks. Maybe I will move to esahn and enroll my son in a thai government school, or american christian school. I have great dreams (as does he at 5) of becoming a bulldozer operator or cleaning bathrooms in a hotel. Shame on those elite schools! Cheers Bud! I already have larger size photos but thanks for the winning tip! Cleared everything right up for me.

If that is your decision, based on the size of the photograph, enjoy. <shrug>

[tombkk]

If you are a director in Thai company you can not enroll in Social security!

George, I thought this too and challenged my accountant on it but she came back with the information that it was made compulsory for all executive directors to be enrolled in the scheme since last year. If you can provide a citation to prove this is not the case, I would appreciate it.

I am a director in my company, and I have social security.

I'm an executive director in my company, and several years ago I was prevented from registering for Thai social security. As Arkady says the laws have changed, I've asked our staff to check if the executive directors in our firm now need to register. Will post whatever they come back with.

Tom, are you an executive director in the company where you're registered for social security? If so, when did you register?

I am working in my company, officially my title is Managing Director, but in reality I'm not that big. But I guess legally I'm an executive director. I registered sometime last year, and I have a Social Security Card, which is supposed to give me free healthcare. Alas, I haven't used it yet.

My take on this issue: If you are only a director, i.e. a shareholder with some decision rights, you are neither required to enlist in, nor entitled to, Social Security. If you work for the company (regardless of whether you are also a director), you pay taxes and contribute to Social Security (and if you are a foreigner, you need a work permit for that).

I don't really know whether this is legally correct, but that is how I understand the situation in Thailand. Somebody with legal knowledge please chip in.