Salaries

[seanwg]

Hi,

In BKK now on vacation with the wife. Reading the nation, there was a job ad which interests me... I'm at the moment making us tax free money in Bermuda and I'm curious as to what a network architect / engineer makes here in Thailand.

Bermuda pays like +70K US to start.. whats it here in Thailand? I speak only a few words of thai (Thai Salary Bah!) ... I've got architect knowledge of RF/IP/IPv6/Wimax/VoIP/SS7.

Speaking to the wife only gets me info in medical fields.. she's a former nurse and its scary learning what nurses make here. My wife and I could move back to my native Canada deal with snow, she could take some courses to get her RN in Canada work for 4 months a year and then live here the remaining 8.

What do people here typically make?

Sean

[The_Other_Mac]

See this rather busy thread, for more information on your chances of landing that job.

[Thaipwriter]

Hi,

In BKK now on vacation with the wife. Reading the nation, there was a job ad which interests me... I'm at the moment making us tax free money in Bermuda and I'm curious as to what a network architect / engineer makes here in Thailand.

Bermuda pays like +70K US to start.. whats it here in Thailand? I speak only a few words of thai (Thai Salary Bah!) ... I've got architect knowledge of RF/IP/IPv6/Wimax/VoIP/SS7.

Speaking to the wife only gets me info in medical fields.. she's a former nurse and its scary learning what nurses make here. My wife and I could move back to my native Canada deal with snow, she could take some courses to get her RN in Canada work for 4 months a year and then live here the remaining 8.

What do people here typically make?

Sean

I know a few guys who work in IT here in Khon Kaen, they make in a month a similar figure to what you would spend on a good pair of shoes

[seanwg]

Wow.. its that low? What is the typical professionals salary here? ie P.Eng, or CA?

How are most people here buying the BMWs/Mercedes?

Sean

[Chang_paarp]

Wow.. its that low? What is the typical professionals salary here? ie P.Eng, or CA?

How are most people here buying the BMWs/Mercedes?

Sean

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are not doing it on Thai salaries alone.

Edited October 15, 2005 by Chang_paarp

[Heng]

Hi,

In BKK now on vacation with the wife. Reading the nation, there was a job ad which interests me... I'm at the moment making us tax free money in Bermuda and I'm curious as to what a network architect / engineer makes here in Thailand.

Bermuda pays like +70K US to start.. whats it here in Thailand? I speak only a few words of thai (Thai Salary Bah!) ... I've got architect knowledge of RF/IP/IPv6/Wimax/VoIP/SS7.

Speaking to the wife only gets me info in medical fields.. she's a former nurse and its scary learning what nurses make here. My wife and I could move back to my native Canada deal with snow, she could take some courses to get her RN in Canada work for 4 months a year and then live here the remaining 8.

What do people here typically make?

Sean

I know a few guys who work in IT here in Khon Kaen, they make in a month a similar figure to what you would spend on a good pair of shoes

My nephew just finished his masters from the US a year ago. Now making a "grand" total of 40,000 Baht a month (US$12k a year) in IT. A lot of his friends consider that a decent amount.

[OldAsiaHand]

Wealth in Thailand is seldom, if ever, earned. It is generally either inherited or stolen. Sometimes both.

[haha]

imagine this scenario....

you have a franchise like a burger king, or a mcdonalds. and the number of people who eat at your restaurant is similiar to the crowds that exist in the united states.

..then, consider that you are paying your employees about 25 baht an hour, or maybe 200 baht a day.

200x8=1600 baht in total daily salary outlay for 8 employees. (40 us dollars)

let's say your average "extra value meal" is about 75 baht or approximately 2 us dollars.

..have you figured it out yet? it shouldn't be too hard if you have a college education.

now, take this one step further, and apply the numbers to some of the big corporations here like the banks, etc.

did you know that many thai people work 6 days a week, 12 hours a day? some only get 2 days off a month.

another step further...

thailand is better off than many of its neighboring countries.

I have met engineers in the philippines making 1 dollar a day. and from what I've read in the newspapers, there are over 200 million people in indonesia living on less than that.

after much thought on this in the past, I came away with the belief that the solution to this is "education". but the people have to realize this before it will bring any rewards. more importantly, the "ruling class" would have to be willing to allow this "education" to take hold. and if they want their country to prosper, they will.

my 2 cents...

[Heng]

Wealth in Thailand is seldom, if ever, earned. It is generally either inherited or stolen. Sometimes both.

(yawn)

Did those leaving inheritances earn it or all stolen as well?

[AlexLah]

Just try and find yourself a supermarket in an appartment complex.

No franchise fees and depending on location it gives you a nice 40-50.000 Bath net profit. Someone I know did that and net profit still increasing every month.

KR,

Alex

[seanwg]

My wife is thai-chinese from a middle-upper class family... she has never really talked about money..

At lunch today I kind of learned more about it.. we went to some royal thai food restaurant and everyone eating there was mostly thai-chinese.. apparantly the chinese own everything here.... and are all making piles of money off the thais. As my wife puts it, the thais like to spend everything they make, while the chinese save everything.

My wife goes.. look at everyone here... they all buy (chinese) low-so clothes and look like they have no money but they all have heavy wallets.

I see many farangs here with audi's and trophy wives/girlfriends.. what are these guys doing? I'm a bit of a day trader in us equities/forex but I've got no where near the cash to be "independently" wealthy?

Sean

Edited October 16, 2005 by seanwg

[Heng]

At lunch today I kind of learned more about it.. we went to some royal thai food restaurant and everyone eating there was mostly thai-chinese.. apparantly the chinese own everything here.... and are all making piles of money off the thais. As my wife puts it, the thais like to spend everything they make, while the chinese save everything.

No different from the Wasps or Jews stateside. As far as I know, they are no less "American" even though most aren't descended from any Apache, Caddo, Iroquois, etc. tribe.

[OldAsiaHand]

Wealth in Thailand is seldom, if ever, earned. It is generally either inherited or stolen. Sometimes both.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(yawn)

Did those leaving inheritances earn it or all stolen as well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Stolen, mostly.

Thailand is a country utterly without natural resources or an educated workforce. Other than agriculture, corruption is the only real industry it has ever had.

[Heng]

Wealth in Thailand is seldom, if ever, earned. It is generally either inherited or stolen. Sometimes both.

(yawn)

Did those leaving inheritances earn it or all stolen as well?

Stolen, mostly.

Thailand is a country utterly without natural resources or an educated workforce. Other than agriculture, corruption is the only real industry it has ever had.

LOLZ!

Have those in agriculture been stealing too?

We've been stealing natural resources from other countries?

[steveromagnino]

>>Thailand is a country utterly without natural resources or an educated workforce. Other than agriculture, corruption is the only real industry it has ever had.

Well I can think of plenty of natural resources... hmm shoot that one down - lignite, coal, lime, gems, seafood (Thailand is a heavy weight in shrimp and tuna)...besides which a lack of natural resources, according to a bunch of research by guys like Porter is not necessarily a kiss of death anyway; actually the general explanation of why Thailand is not so money hungry compared to other countries is precisely that there is rice in the fields and fish in the river.

And educated workforce - well again can think of McKinsey with its mostly Thai staff, Accenture consulting (ok they are a joke but still not that funny), CPN, Land and House and other successful Thai companies - they must be doing something other than growing rice or ripping off people....Sure the general level of education could do with improvements, but let's say the team of people I work with; well I would be happy to put them up against any other marketing team from any other country in the same industry; hel_l some of the stuff we do here has never been done before in 100 years of this industry; we have people contacting us to ask us how we run things. And we are not the only ones being asked that in this industry.

And then we look at the GDP and the massive investment in factories and labour intensive work like car assembly, windsurfer assembly (Cobra, undisputed market leader in this market worldwide)... again not all rice farming.

Then you've got tourism. That is certainly a natural resource; unless you want to argue that everyone is coming here for NEP.

No doubt there is a lot of corruption here.

But there are also people doing some very cool stuff and if you don't scrape the surface beyond the dirt of corruption, and not so hot education system, then you miss out on seeing the opportunities.

Seawng - the wealth in Thai Chinese hands is estimated to be around something like 55% from around 10% of the population (if I recall the study about wealth distribution from CHinese migration). This is in keeping although slightly lower than Malaysia, Philipines and Indo; Indo is the highest with 3% of the population controlling (supposedly) 70% of the wealth. It has been studied and I am simply recalling the numbers from reading maybe 3 years ago; you should check it out. However, the authors did make the point that Thai Chinese are more integrated into Thailand than any of the other countries; and most would consider themselves to be Thai first and foremost, and of Chinese decent second; which is different to the othe countries they surveyed. If it had to put down to one thing, Chinese tended to be immigrants. Immigrants have a lot of risk already, and thus want returns - work hard, save, that sort of thing. Couple that with coming from a country of intense competition already, and that's why you see Chinese poor immigrants becoming successful most places they go, not just Thailand.

That's also why you see anti Chinese, anti Jew and anti other immigrant minorities in most places; the people who are already there often don't like it. I estimate that the effort to migrate to some new place takes a certain kind of go getter person in many cases; that type of person works hard to make something from a low starting point.

Tha t said, your wife is not exactly indicative of all Thai Chinese - many of the successful ones are the most ostentatious showy people; rolexes, Benz and massive wedding ceremonies just for "face"; but I agree with her they do tend to know how to save money better than some other groups of people. And some, like my mum, would even walk rather than catch the bus to save money, even when she is a millionaire in any currency.

And certainly some of the really uneducated Thais from the poorer provinces, who may work very hard, but really don't understand principles of budgeting, planning and so on for the most part.

[thedude]

>>Thailand is a country utterly without natural resources or an educated workforce. Other than agriculture, corruption is the only real industry it has ever had.

Well I can think of plenty of natural resources... hmm shoot that one down - lignite, coal, lime, gems, seafood (Thailand is a heavy weight in shrimp and tuna)...besides which a lack of natural resources, according to a bunch of research by guys like Porter is not necessarily a kiss of death anyway; actually the general explanation of why Thailand is not so money hungry compared to other countries is precisely that there is rice in the fields and fish in the river.

And educated workforce - well again can think of McKinsey with its mostly Thai staff, Accenture consulting (ok they are a joke but still not that funny), CPN, Land and House and other successful Thai companies - they must be doing something other than growing rice or ripping off people....Sure the general level of education could do with improvements, but let's say the team of people I work with; well I would be happy to put them up against any other marketing team from any other country in the same industry; hel_l some of the stuff we do here has never been done before in 100 years of this industry; we have people contacting us to ask us how we run things.  And we are not the only ones being asked that in this industry.

And then we look at the GDP and the massive investment in factories and labour intensive work like car assembly, windsurfer assembly (Cobra, undisputed market leader in this market worldwide)... again not all rice farming.

Then you've got tourism.  That is certainly a natural resource; unless you want to argue that everyone is coming here for NEP.

No doubt there is a lot of corruption here.

But there are also people doing some very cool stuff and if you don't scrape the surface beyond the dirt of corruption, and not so hot education system, then you miss out on seeing the opportunities. 

Seawng - the wealth in Thai Chinese hands is estimated to be around something like 55% from around 10% of the population (if I recall the study about wealth distribution from CHinese migration).  This is in keeping although slightly lower than Malaysia, Philipines and Indo; Indo is the highest with 3% of the population controlling (supposedly) 70% of the wealth.  It has been studied and I am simply recalling the numbers from reading maybe 3 years ago; you should check it out.  However, the authors did make the point that Thai Chinese are more integrated into Thailand than any of the other countries; and most would consider themselves to be Thai first and foremost, and of Chinese decent second; which is different to the othe countries they surveyed.  If it had to put down to one thing, Chinese tended to be immigrants.  Immigrants have a lot of risk already, and thus want returns - work hard, save, that sort of thing.  Couple that with coming from a country of intense competition already, and that's why you see Chinese poor immigrants becoming successful most places they go, not just Thailand.

That's also why you see anti Chinese, anti Jew and anti other immigrant minorities in most places; the people who are already there often don't like it.  I estimate that the effort to migrate to some new place takes a certain kind of go getter person in many cases; that type of person works hard to make something from a low starting point.

Tha t said, your wife is not exactly indicative of all Thai Chinese - many of the successful ones are the most ostentatious showy people; rolexes, Benz and massive wedding ceremonies just for "face"; but I agree with her they do tend to know how to save money better than some other groups of people.  And some, like my mum, would even walk rather than catch the bus to save money, even when she is a millionaire in any currency.

And certainly some of the really uneducated Thais from the poorer provinces, who may work very hard, but really don't understand principles of budgeting, planning and so on for the most part.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

an excellent and thoughful post, steveromagnino, which itself highlights the gulf between ignorance and enlightenment on this very forum.

it would be a gross exageration to say that all thais are uneducated, and like you point out, there are many thais occupying jobs which require them to be of a certain global intellectual standard. however, i think the point is worth making that few of them would have been wholly educated in thailand.

education reform continues to be neglected by this governmment, and thailand is in danger of falling further behind in developing the kind of education system that is so important for developing countries to stay relevant and competitive. more progressive governments are already reshaping education in this new age to focus on upgrading of teaching skills, they recognise the importance to leverage on IT and international languages such as english as learning tools, developing from a young age creative thinking skills, critical thinking and problem solving skills, the habit of self-learning, team and community based learning, cross cultural learning. it is amazing how far behind thailand really is in education.

your observations on the chinese diaspora are also well formed. in the context of education, i cant help but feel that chinese-thai elitism will worsen if a broader based education agenda is not embraced by policy makers. in the long run however, the chinese-thais themselves will suffer because their move up the value chain will be hampered by a lack of an educated work-force.

agree totally that thailand's natural wealth in agriculture is part of the reason why native thais are more laid back and less go getting. a key question for me is whether there is a real need to bring globalisation and advancement to thailand. many people cite a slow erosion, degradation, of traditionals morals and values and that a thai farmer, when presented with more money, will spend it in ways that will further burden him. again this boils down to education for me. education is the most central issue in thailand's future.

[steveromagnino]

The dude -

yep totally agree.... edukaychun is da key :-) There are two key issues; one of mobilising the culture to want to achieve certain things, and the other of giving them the skills to do that.

I personally believe that there is no "conspiracy" anymore like there used to be to stop being getting smarter and more knowledgeable.. it is more just incompetence in the civil service and other areas that leads to an ongoing problem still not resolved. This is not helped by the fact that so many of the smartest people do study overseas, thus reducing the brain pool at universities and so on locally. You are only as smart as the people you study with after all.

Influencing culture is done in many countries; I just think that the values of many of the people in power here are not necessarily appropriate to be taught; while other values that need to be taught (for example the need to budget and not live beyond your means) are either ignored or what the govt does (30b healthcare, debt forgiveness etc) actually encourages ppl to rely on the govt to look after them.

There are solutions; step by step Thailand is improving in some areas, and falling back in others.

But not much of that of that improvement will ever emminate from some of the negative people who spend too much time on these webboards Oops, maybe that includes me?!

[~G~]

education reform continues to be neglected by this governmment, and thailand is in danger of falling further behind in developing the kind of education system that is so important for developing countries to stay relevant and competitive. 

Two sad examples:

About a year ago I opened an account in an SCB branch in the center of BKK. I considered the english of the people in that branch to be terrible.

...Until I wanted to open an account in another branch. Also in central bangkok, quite a big one. Their english was even worse. I do speak everyday Thai but I have to use English when it comes to banking terms.

Me: "Do you speak english?"

Bank Employee: "No"

- "Does anyone in the bank speaks english?"

- "No."

- "Does the branch manager speaks English?"

branch manager?! (Someone show this farang the way out )

- Can you process an LC?

- LC. Oh No. (laughing) Cannot.

- Why?

- LC. Yes. Can.

- What is the comission you charge?

Bank Employee: Smiles and gives me some forms in Thai to sign.

Me: Smiles back and goes out to find another branch...

Another example:

I had a sales assistant with a university degree. Now we have many overseas clients. One day she asked me if Vietnam and Cambodia are the same country.

[Heng]

Nothing sad at all about the first example. Although for the second one, I agree.

[Heng]

That's also why you see anti Chinese, anti Jew and anti other immigrant minorities in most places; the people who are already there often don't like it.  I estimate that the effort to migrate to some new place takes a certain kind of go getter person in many cases; that type of person works hard to make something from a low starting point.

Tha t said, your wife is not exactly indicative of all Thai Chinese - many of the successful ones are the most ostentatious showy people; rolexes, Benz and massive wedding ceremonies just for "face"; but I agree with her they do tend to know how to save money better than some other groups of people.  And some, like my mum, would even walk rather than catch the bus to save money, even when she is a millionaire in any currency.

Good post, Steve. Although there are plenty of "lazy" or at the very least "non go getting" immigrant/migrant cultures and members there of all over the world; Bangkok as an example is full of millions of such folk.

And IMO, I think an even greater number of the successful Thai Chinese, and old school "polite" Thai pudee are the least showy and still stick to the "keep your gold under your coat" way of thinking. These are the folks that when you show up to do a deal on a piece of property at their modest two building shophouse with steel/wood/glasses/etc. shop on the left/home on the right, they take out the title deed from a book of deeds as big as a telephone book.... "I don't like to part with property, but my husband is of the opinion that the negative hong jui (feng shui) connotations of the T intersection isn't good for business." One is often left thinking, the hong jui must not be all that bad because you're likely sitting on quite a bit of value in property there.

[phastmike]

someone's drinking water from the klong san sap...

[Heng]

Not a problem, as long as they are paying for it.

[steveromagnino]

Another example:

I had a sales assistant with a university degree. Now we have many overseas clients. One day she asked me if Vietnam and Cambodia are the same country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, since it was occupied, it was for a while the same country... so what year was that again?????

Agreed the english is bad, but I cannot think why it should be a requirement of a bank to have to speak English. The national language is Thai. Agreed, a very non-progressive way to look at things, but SCB is not that progressive is it?!

If you want a really lame banking operation, check out Citibank.

[thedude]

I personally believe that there is no "conspiracy" anymore like there used to be to stop being getting smarter and more knowledgeable.. it is more just incompetence in the civil service and other areas that leads to an ongoing problem still not resolved.  This is not helped by the fact that so many of the smartest people do study overseas, thus reducing the brain pool at universities and so on locally.  You are only as smart as the people you study with after all.

Influencing culture is done in many countries; I just think that the values of many of the people in power here are not necessarily appropriate to be taught; while other values that need to be taught (for example the need to budget and not live beyond your means) are either ignored or what the govt does (30b healthcare, debt forgiveness etc) actually encourages ppl to rely on the govt to look after them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

oh there certainly isn't a conspiracy in the sense that its not organised, but i'd bet that "keeping people where they are" is part of an unspoken agenda, because creating reliance is part of what gives them political power. thaksinomics, while inspired for its time, is no long term economic solution, and people should not mistake it for being so, it was part of a clever and timely power gambit. but now that there is a clear majority in government, its dissappointing that they are not acting beyond themselves. no amount of pump priming will make up for their inaction on the education front.

on your other point, greed and gratification are natural and universal motivators especially in mass politics, and politicians everywhere exploit this in various ways, some more obvious than others. what is unique in thailand however, is that it operates within a buddhist setting with very interesting results. the buddhist precept of karma and acceptance of ones' fate, when magnified to a national scale, lends itself to a sense of helplessness because people are so ready to live with the status quo rather than disturb someone powerful who is pursuing his own karmic fate. ironically, it is the very compelling nature of buddhism as a peace-loving and open religion that i feel, hampers national progress. this explains the attitude of many farangs on this site - they enjoy the outward manifestation of the culture, but they cannot abide by the values that create it in the first place.

a reform-minded harvard educated monk (i forget his name) has blamed this on the thai buddhist order which has for too long wrongly emphasised the importance or meaning of alms giving, which reinforces the idea of karma in a negative way because people start to believe that they can undo a wrong by simply buying spiritual credit through alms. this is an easy way out that leads to an overall state of moral decay. there is too much reliance on the idea of karma and less on what he calls the Mangala 38, which i understand to be a chain of principles that puts the responsibility on the individual to good through action rather than accept other people's wrongs, and the notion that goodness is something that needs to be actively upheld by the community.

cultural change requires an adjustment of values rather than merely encouraging behavior though education. unfortunately, thailand is losing its religious footing - something like 5% of those surveyed actually go to a wat on a regular basis. and like europe, we are seeing a slide toward liberalism. but whereas in europe, society is upheld by strong civic consciousness, in thailand we get "acceptance", and thai kids get a mix of low education standards and pop culture.

[~G~]

I cannot think why it should be a requirement of a bank to have to speak English.  The national language is Thai.  Agreed, a very non-progressive way to look at things, but SCB is not that progressive is it?!

Nothing sad at all about the first example.

Exactly, why should bank staff speak English? This is Thailand, have all those farangs learn Thai first if they want to do business here Oh, but that way we might be loosing foreign investments, have less transactions and earn less? (so we might want at least one or two people in the big central branches to speak english?)

On second thought, who cares!

[britainmal]

According, to The Asian weekly magazine, the average salary in Bangkok is 50,000 baht a month. So, don't think every Thai person is making peanuts otherwise you would not see all the nice luxury cars on the beautiful streets of Bangkok and see Thais going to expensive restaurants, and sending their sons and daughters abroad to study.

[WhiteShiva]

I cannot think why it should be a requirement of a bank to have to speak English.  The national language is Thai.  Agreed, a very non-progressive way to look at things, but SCB is not that progressive is it?!

Nothing sad at all about the first example.

Exactly, why should bank staff speak English? This is Thailand, have all those farangs learn Thai first if they want to do business here Oh, but that way we might be loosing foreign investments, have less transactions and earn less? (so we might want at least one or two people in the big central branches to speak english?)

On second thought, who cares!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, let's just seal the borders and all will be fine. Thailand doesn't need all these pesky foreigners and their money. nor their products. No need to export or import goods. Kick out the farangs, the indians, the japanese, the chinese and everybody else who hasn't lived here for at least 20 generations. Thailand would be so much better off......

[charles]

According, to The Asian weekly magazine, the average salary in Bangkok is 50,000 baht a month.  So, don't think every Thai person is making peanuts...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe the Asian weekly magazine is talking complete b*llocks. On the other hand, you have to be careful with "averages", just a very small proportion of people making astronomical amounts can pump an "average" right up. Hang on, that sounds a bit like Bangkok...

[thedude]

According, to The Asian weekly magazine, the average salary in Bangkok is 50,000 baht a month.  So, don't think every Thai person is making peanuts...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe the Asian weekly magazine is talking complete b*llocks. On the other hand, you have to be careful with "averages", just a very small proportion of people making astronomical amounts can pump an "average" right up. Hang on, that sounds a bit like Bangkok...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Asian weekly's survey was probably conducted in English, which in itself would give a bias sampling. Its also probably a survey of Asian executive salary and not that of the general population.

[~G~]

According, to The Asian weekly magazine, the average salary in Bangkok is 50,000 baht a month.  So, don't think every Thai person is making peanuts...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Maybe the Asian weekly magazine is talking complete b*llocks. On the other hand, you have to be careful with "averages", just a very small proportion of people making astronomical amounts can pump an "average" right up. Hang on, that sounds a bit like Bangkok...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No one can pump the average up that high. This figure is close to average salaries in some western countries. Britainmasl, could you please quote that survey from the magazine?