Recent Visit By Roman Polanski

[SiamOne]

It's not a matter of agreeing with you. It's a matter of speaking for you, which if Judge was more familar with your posts, has certainly never been a problem.

I agree with lots of people here... but I certainly wouldn't presume to write for them.

The middle man comment in italics was indicative of not wanting to write something inanely politically-correct as middle woman.

Whether or not you are a woman really doesn't concern me, although other members have voiced their doubts, it doesn't change my responses to your posts one way or another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had not realised he was speaking for me, just clearing up your confusion.

The middleman was referring to him, not me, I think. I mentioned your "him"

In a topic such as this, maybe a womans point of view may be different, for obvious reasons.

Your other point about other members is very funny, thanks for sharing

[sriracha john]

It's not a matter of agreeing with you. It's a matter of speaking for you, which if Judge was more familar with your posts, has certainly never been a problem.

I agree with lots of people here... but I certainly wouldn't presume to write for them.

The middle man comment in italics was indicative of not wanting to write something inanely politically-correct as middle woman.

Whether or not you are a woman really doesn't concern me, although other members have voiced their doubts, it doesn't change my responses to your posts one way or another.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had not realised he was speaking for me, just clearing up your confusion.

The middleman was referring to him, not me, I think. I mentioned your "him"

It is interesting that this is twice now that Judge has felt compelled to post for what SiamOne meant, so perhaps it's best if I just confined my future replies to him and cut out the "middle man."

To further digress or for the benefit of people that might actually enjoy redundancy or for those unfamiliar with English language sentence structure of the above:

"Judge" = Judge

"SiamOne" = SiamOne

"him" = Judge

"middle man" = SiamOne

Hopefully we have cleared up any "confusion" and we can now return to the topic at hand.

[SiamOne]

It is interesting that this is twice now that Judge has felt compelled to post for what SiamOne meant, so perhaps it's best if I just confined my future replies to him and cut out the "middle man."

To further digress or for the benefit of people that might actually enjoy redundancy or for those unfamiliar with English language sentence structure of the above:

"Judge" = Judge

"SiamOne" = SiamOne

"him" = Judge

"middle man" = SiamOne

Hopefully we have cleared up any "confusion" and we can now return to the topic at hand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

still confused reading your post again....

if the judge was posting for me, then he was the middleman. and I was the "him"

but thank you for indicating what you actually meant

[Judge]

Someone brought up the topic of men who are attracted to adolecents.

This seems to be what many people are wrongly refering to as "pedophilia".

I found this description of Ephebophilia in the encyclodepia fascinating and to stay on topic it seems to fit Mr. Polanski's sexuality pretty well.

I have highlighted some passages that had information that I wasn't aware of.

Sorry if it is overly long, but IMHO it is well worth worth reading.

Ephebophilia

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Ephebophilia, from the Greek έφηβος (ephebos) "adolescent" and φιλία (philia) "love/friendship", is a sexual preference or orientation in which an adult is primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to adolescents (usually people between the ages of 13 and 16).

Terminology

Ephebophilia, as most strictly defined, refers only to an attraction, not to sexual activity (although sexual activity can be involved). It is used in contrast with pedophilia, which is an attraction to pre-pubescent individuals. In more casual usage, however, pedophilia is often used more broadly in the western world, to describe an attraction to any person younger than the legal age of consent. For example the term "pedophile priests" is frequently used instead of "pederastic priests", in the context of the Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal, although much of the sexual behavior involved was with adolescent (i.e. post-pubescent) teens.

An alternate term, less widely used, is hebephilia.

Pederasty is a particular kind of relationship between adult males and male adolescents.

A Lolita complex refers to the attraction of a male to female adolescents, a term which stems from the book Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov.

A Shota complex refers to the attraction of any person (male or female) to male adolescents, a term which stems from Japanese culture.

Characteristics

The nature of ephebophilia is not fully understood, and a variety of perspectives are held. Some regard ephebophilia as merely a milder form of pedophilia, in which the object of attraction is closer to what is "normal" than with a true pedophile. According to one theory, ephebophilia is a chronophilia, i.e. a paraphilia in which the paraphile's sexual/erotic age is discordant with his or her actual chronological age, and is instead concordant with the age of the partner.

Others argue that a consistent preference for adolescents is merely a natural and normal attraction to individuals at or near the peak of their sexual capability, and reflects a biologically "normal" reproductive strategy (in contrast to a preference for pre-pubescents, which does not and is therefore pathological). Sociobiological research shows that primate males tend to prefer young females of reproductive age. For example, a study on human male preferences showed that males from the age of 7 years and up tended to prefer the faces of 17-year-old girls over those of other ages. (See Sexual attraction of men.)

Attraction to adolescents is not commonly regarded by psychologists as inherently pathological, only when it interferes with other relationships, becomes an obsession adversely affecting other areas of life, or causes distress to the subject. An exclusive attraction to adolescents can lead to difficulties when the younger person in such a relationship reaches adulthood.

Sexual desire that includes adolescents along with older individuals is common among adults with either a heterosexual or a homosexual orientation; this is not labeled "ephebophilia" because the attraction to adolescents is not exclusive of adults. In some cultures, for adults to include adolescents among their sexual interests is considered normal, such as those in which adolescent girls have routinely been married to adult men. Nonetheless, an open attraction to adolescents may be ridiculed or disparaged as inappropriate or unhealthy, compared to forming a relationship with "someone your own age"; an attraction to adolescents is something one is expected to "grow out of." In Japanese society, the attraction of men towards teenage girls (high-school students) is a visible cultural phenomenon. The manifestations of such attraction, such as lolicon art, school uniform fetishes, and sexual relations with teenage girls (e.g. enjo kōsai) are tolerated more than in the West.

Legality

While ephebophilia itself is not regulated by any statute, aspects of sexually expressed ephebophilia may or may not be against the law. Depending on the age of consent in a given jurisdiction, an adolescent may be capable of giving legally-recognised consent to sexual activity. If the younger partner is below that age, it is commonly criminalised as statutory rape, regardless of whether the younger partner agrees to - or even initiates - the activity. The reasons for this include:

Adolescents are seen as unable to understand the physical, emotional, and social consequences of sexual activity;

Sexual acts can involve psychological coercion and abuse of power;

Sexual acts can lead to pregnancy and possibly parenthood, for which adolescents may not be emotionally prepared.

Relationships between adults and adolescents that do not include sexual activity are generally legal, assuming no other laws regarding child welfare are violated. For example, a romantic relationship with an adolescent below the age of consent is generally legal, especially when the adolescent's age is above the age at which their parents could consent to marriage. In other jurisdictions, this may be illegal.

Culture norms

In Japanese society, the attraction towards young girls is a widespread cultural phenomenon. The manifestations of such attraction, such as lolicon art and school uniform fetishes, are more tolerated than in the West, though child pornography is illegal in Japan.

Another society with tolerance for such relationships is Brazil, where ageism or prejuidicial treatment on the grounds of age has been forbidden by the Brazilian Constitution since 1998. In 1999, 28-year old Marcio Garcia, a nationally famous actor, dated 14-year old model Daniella Sarahyba for over a year in which period the relationship was accepted by the Brazilian mainstream media and by the television network which he worked for. Also in the 1990s 13-year old Kelly Key, who would become a famous singer, started dating 23-year old singer Latino, whom she married later on. Before that, in 1982, 40-year-old Caetano Veloso—a famous Brazilian singer and composer—began a relationship with 13-year-old Paula Lavigne, though he was already married at the time. He divorced and married Lavigne 3 years later. Their marriage lasted 19 years, ending only in 2004. The relationship was respected and he was not persecuted by the media or music industry. None were named as pedophiles, an accusation that could be considered as slander in Brazil.

Edited October 19, 2005 by Judge

[Butterfly]

He is not the only one. A number of talented "directors" in Hollywood are known "pedos"

another famous "French" director who made it to Hollywood is famous for having sex and having dated girls as young as 14 (I won't name names here)

I am not a NAMBLA supporter, but do we need to go after those characters ?

it's different from the "pedos" here who pay for young desperate and poor children. Those deserve a bullet in the head.

[chownah]

He is not the only one. A number of talented "directors" in Hollywood are known "pedos"

another famous "French" director who made it to Hollywood is famous for having sex and having dated girls as young as 14 (I won't name names here)

I am not a NAMBLA supporter, but do we need to go after those characters ?

it's different from the "pedos" here who pay for young desperate and poor children. Those deserve a bullet in the head.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you read the previous post? Just wondering. It says that a pedophile properly means someone who likes pre-pubescent children. Pre-pubescent means before sexuality is active in a child. With this definition there is no evidence that Polanski is a pedophile. It seems that the proper term for him is probably an 'ephebophile'....which means someone who likes adolescent children. Adolescent means a child whose sexuality has recently emerged. There seems to be a big difference in how various societies view these two different categories. Its worth a read even though its long.

Edited October 19, 2005 by chownah

[britmaveric]

ok pedophile isnt proper terminology - lets settle for sick/twisted pervert instead.

[Johpa]

And of course none of you here have acces to the largest group of pedophiles in the Kingdom because you don't speak their language.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

would you like to explain your last remark?

or is it so off-topic and nonsensical that you had better withdraw it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is neither nonsensical nor off-topic although perhaps controversial. See my earlier reference about the Bnagkok tea houses, where, if you are unaware, little Thai is spoken.

[SiamOne]

And of course none of you here have acces to the largest group of pedophiles in the Kingdom because you don't speak their language.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

would you like to explain your last remark?

or is it so off-topic and nonsensical that you had better withdraw it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is neither nonsensical nor off-topic although perhaps controversial. See my earlier reference about the Bnagkok tea houses, where, if you are unaware, little Thai is spoken.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well it is certainly off topic (Roman Polanski?) but sounds interesting

so tell us more about these tea houses. I have never heard of them, it's true

so explain

[chownah]

ok pedophile isnt proper terminology - lets settle for sick/twisted pervert instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which is more sick/twisted...someone who likes to have sex with nubile females or someone who likes to look at pictures of nubile females and w@nk?

[Boon Mee]

What SiamOne was saying was quite clear and easy to understand already.

I was just trying to be helpful and polite and not point that out. 

Don't feel too abused here Judge, it's just that it is so seldom on here we see someone like yourself being helpful. Especially with a 'hot button' topic like this one.

Keep up the good work!

[Judge]

ok pedophile isnt proper terminology - lets settle for sick/twisted pervert instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm afraid that psychologists don't agree with you as far as most ephebophile's being "perverted", however some certainly are.

It is certainly possible - considering his history - that Roman Polanski could be one of them.

Attraction to adolescents is not commonly regarded by psychologists as inherently pathological, only when it interferes with other relationships, becomes an obsession adversely affecting other areas of life, or causes distress to the subject. 

[cdnvic]

Attraction to adolescents is not commonly regarded by psychologists as inherently pathological, only when it interferes with other relationships, becomes an obsession adversely affecting other areas of life, or causes distress to the subject. 

I read a paper on this in uni once that basicly backed that theory up. It found that the majority of men who had been busted with underage (not children, but young teens) girls hade almost all had trouble socially in their teens and were still trying to connect with the females who were at their stunted level of social maturity. The majority of the test subjects responded to counselling when coached on proper social skills, and those who went on to successful relationships with adult women had almost zero recividism.

It makes sense that a pedophile, and those attracted to adolecents are catagorized differently. There's many 15yr olds that have all the physical charicteristics of an adult. With an 8yr old there's just no excuse, to be attracted to that you must have alot more wrong with you than just being uncomfortable with adult relationships.

Now here's a question for you.....

Pedophilia is justifiably loathed by almost all people in society and so it should be. Does this stigma actually make the problem worse? Do the "hang 'em high" voices deter those who have these tendencies from seeking help before they act on it? (unlike those sickos at nambla who form a club) How do you make it so they can come forward before they harm some kid?

cv

[sriracha john]

Someone  brought up the topic of men who are attracted to adolecents.

This seems to be what many people are wrongly refering to as "pedophilia".

I found this description of Ephebophilia in the encyclodepia fascinating and to stay on topic it seems to fit Mr. Polanski's sexuality pretty well.

I have highlighted some passages that had information that I wasn't aware of.

Sorry if it is overly long, but IMHO it is well worth worth reading. 

Regarding the subject person of this thread, it should be pointed out that, as outlined in post #118, he more closely resembles the definition of pedophile.

[sriracha john]

ok pedophile isnt proper terminology - lets settle for sick/twisted pervert instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As all these terms... (and perhaps I shouldn't have introduced the new vocabulary into the thread, but oh well)... are psychological and medical terms. As such, they are open to a wide variety of interpretations and speculation in their application to specific individuals.

The only real terms that need to be applied to the subject of this thread are the legal ones, which are clear and finite, with little room left for interpretation.

As for Mr. Polanski, they are:

Wanted fugitive.

Convicted rapist.

[Judge]

Someone  brought up the topic of men who are attracted to adolecents.

This seems to be what many people are wrongly refering to as "pedophilia".

I found this description of Ephebophilia in the encyclodepia fascinating and to stay on topic it seems to fit Mr. Polanski's sexuality pretty well.

I have highlighted some passages that had information that I wasn't aware of.

Sorry if it is overly long, but IMHO it is well worth worth reading. 

Regarding the subject person of this thread, it should be pointed out that, as outlined in post #118, he more closely resembles the definition of pedophile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that actual pedophiles are attracted excusively to pre-pubesant children.

Polanski has a well-known history with girls and women of all different ages, and I have the feeling that all of them were physically sexually mature.

If I am correct about these guesses, I think that this would rule him out as being a pedophile.

[SiamOne]

As for Mr. Polanski, they are:

Wanted fugitive.

Convicted rapist (statutary).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

can't argue with that, even 30+ years later

[Judge]

Now here's a question for you.....

Pedophilia is justifiably loathed by almost all people in society and so it should be. Does this stigma actually make the problem worse? Do the "hang 'em high" voices deter those who have these tendencies from seeking help before they act on it? (unlike those sickos at nambla who form a club) How do you make it so they can come forward before they harm some kid?

cv

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is only my opinion, but I try, as much as I can, to put myself in their place.

IF they are as sexually attracted to children as much I was to women in my younger days - thinking of nothing else - how would they be able to think rationally about anything but their own needs?

As far as violence goes, I know that I've never even considered rape - no matter my desperation - so I think that many pedophiles would think in a similar manner, but, if they feel that God made them the way they are, they would justify what they consider to be "consensual" sex in any way that they could.

I don't really there is any other solution for these types than capital punishment.

If you let them live in seclusion their lives will be miserable. If you let them mingle in society, they will destroy children's lives.

Just my opinion.

[Butterfly]

He is not the only one. A number of talented "directors" in Hollywood are known "pedos"

another famous "French" director who made it to Hollywood is famous for having sex and having dated girls as young as 14 (I won't name names here)

I am not a NAMBLA supporter, but do we need to go after those characters ?

it's different from the "pedos" here who pay for young desperate and poor children. Those deserve a bullet in the head.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you read the previous post? Just wondering. It says that a pedophile properly means someone who likes pre-pubescent children. Pre-pubescent means before sexuality is active in a child. With this definition there is no evidence that Polanski is a pedophile. It seems that the proper term for him is probably an 'ephebophile'....which means someone who likes adolescent children. Adolescent means a child whose sexuality has recently emerged. There seems to be a big difference in how various societies view these two different categories. Its worth a read even though its long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These are NAMBLA definitions. I think the word "pedos" can be safely used for anyone under the age of 18 in our western societies. The age of consent is some legal bullshit. Who cares. Are they emotionally ready ? that's the only real question. I don't care if young Africans women can have children as young as 14 and be sexually active at 12. They live in a different culture with different emotional expectations. But in the western world, having sex with teens is still technically a "pedo" act. I am not saying it's immoral or wrong or right, just that they are NOT ready and that's all that counts,

[Judge]

He is not the only one. A number of talented "directors" in Hollywood are known "pedos"

another famous "French" director who made it to Hollywood is famous for having sex and having dated girls as young as 14 (I won't name names here)

I am not a NAMBLA supporter, but do we need to go after those characters ?

it's different from the "pedos" here who pay for young desperate and poor children. Those deserve a bullet in the head.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you read the previous post? Just wondering. It says that a pedophile properly means someone who likes pre-pubescent children. Pre-pubescent means before sexuality is active in a child. With this definition there is no evidence that Polanski is a pedophile. It seems that the proper term for him is probably an 'ephebophile'....which means someone who likes adolescent children. Adolescent means a child whose sexuality has recently emerged. There seems to be a big difference in how various societies view these two different categories. Its worth a read even though its long.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

These are NAMBLA definitions. I think the word "pedos" can be safely used for anyone under the age of 18 in our western societies. The age of consent is some legal bullshit. Who cares. Are they emotionally ready ? that's the only real question. I don't care if young Africans women can have children as young as 14 and be sexually active at 12. They live in a different culture with different emotional expectations. But in the western world, having sex with teens is still technically a "pedo" act. I am not saying it's immoral or wrong or right, just that they are NOT ready and that's all that counts,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you Professor!

[chownah]

ok pedophile isnt proper terminology - lets settle for sick/twisted pervert instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As all these terms... (and perhaps I shouldn't have introduced the new vocabulary into the thread, but oh well)... are psychological and medical terms. As such, they are open to a wide variety of interpretations and speculation in their application to specific individuals.

The only real terms that need to be applied to the subject of this thread are the legal ones, which are clear and finite, with little room left for interpretation.

As for Mr. Polanski, they are:

Wanted fugitive.

Convicted rapist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I disagree that the only thing we need to discuss here is the legality. I can see that you tend to be discussing the legal aspects primarily but for me the legal aspects are secondary to the other aspects...namely peoples perceptions and how it effects their moral/philosophical stands. For me the legal situation is very clear and needs no discussion....just look at the court records (he was convicted of a crime (statutory rape, I think) and is now a fugitive from the American legal system).....it is the attitudes that people have surrounding this that are not easily deciphered and understood....at least for me.

[monochaser]

Someone  brought up the topic of men who are attracted to adolecents.

This seems to be what many people are wrongly refering to as "pedophilia".

I found this description of Ephebophilia in the encyclodepia fascinating and to stay on topic it seems to fit Mr. Polanski's sexuality pretty well.

I have highlighted some passages that had information that I wasn't aware of.

Sorry if it is overly long, but IMHO it is well worth worth reading. 

Regarding the subject person of this thread, it should be pointed out that, as outlined in post #118, he more closely resembles the definition of pedophile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that actual pedophiles are attracted excusively to pre-pubesant children.

Polanski has a well-known history with girls and women of all different ages, and I have the feeling that all of them were physically sexually mature.

If I am correct about these guesses, I think that this would rule him out as being a pedophile.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good job Judge. I think you have established that Polanski may not be a pedo. I salute you. So basically what he is for sure is:

A. Convicted Rapist of a 13 year old

B. Convicted Felon

C. Fugitive

D. Convicted Scumbag

Thanks again pal

[Butterfly]

ok pedophile isnt proper terminology - lets settle for sick/twisted pervert instead.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm afraid that psychologists don't agree with you as far as most ephebophile's being "perverted", however some certainly are.

It is certainly possible - considering his history - that Roman Polanski could be one of them.

Attraction to adolescents is not commonly regarded by psychologists as inherently pathological, only when it interferes with other relationships, becomes an obsession adversely affecting other areas of life, or causes distress to the subject. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think there is a natural attraction to young women for most men, it's inherent in men sexual drive. So it's definitely not pathological, even though society would like us to believe otherwise. OTH, because our society has certain emotional structure and expectations, we can't "act" on those temptations. Likewise, we don't beat and kill people over little pretense because our instinct tell us to.

[SiamOne]

Good job Judge. I think you have established that Polanski may not be a pedo. I salute you. So basically what he is for sure is:

A. Convicted Rapist of a 13 year old

B. Convicted Felon

C. Fugitive

D. Convicted Scumbag

Thanks again pal

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This topic brings out the reactionaries amongst us; how about stringing him up from the nearest tree when you get the chance?

A. Correct, for Statutary Rape

B. That is the same thing

C. Yes, he did not want to be jailed

D. This shows your true colours. Is scumbag a legal term?

If anyone has any feelings of forgiveness after 30 years, it would be a nice thing. It seems however that the reactionary elements all want to stand up and be counted, well done.

How many of you men would walk away if you were talking to a very cute girl and getting on well, she has consented to accompany you home. There, after getting comfortable and excited etc, she lets drop that she is underage.

Oh, all of you, congratulations, you are very good men!

[Boon Mee]

Someone  brought up the topic of men who are attracted to adolecents.

This seems to be what many people are wrongly refering to as "pedophilia".

I found this description of Ephebophilia in the encyclodepia fascinating and to stay on topic it seems to fit Mr. Polanski's sexuality pretty well.

I have highlighted some passages that had information that I wasn't aware of.

Sorry if it is overly long, but IMHO it is well worth worth reading. 

Regarding the subject person of this thread, it should be pointed out that, as outlined in post #118, he more closely resembles the definition of pedophile.

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that actual pedophiles are attracted excusively to pre-pubesant children.

Polanski has a well-known history with girls and women of all different ages, and I have the feeling that all of them were physically sexually mature.

If I am correct about these guesses, I think that this would rule him out as being a pedophile.

Good job Judge. I think you have established that Polanski may not be a pedo. I salute you. So basically what he is for sure is:

A. Convicted Rapist of a 13 year old

B. Convicted Felon

C. Fugitive

D. Convicted Scumbag

Thanks again pal

You left out Eurotrash...

[chownah]

Polanski has admitted to the press in blunt words that he likes very young girls.  I would like to consider the time he was with the 15 year old and since I don't know, I'm going to consider that where they were it would be legal for them to have consensual sex.  I would guess that many here would find this to be repulsive even though it is illegal...perhaps some would say that it is immoral.  My questioin is, if a man of his age did have consensual sex with a 15 year old and in a place where this is legal, then is the 15 year old harmed in some way...even if the 15 year old is a happy and willing partner who perhaps even seeks him out for companionship and sex?  Even if you feel that she is too immature to make the decision to have sex with him, I still ask, if he does is he harming her in some way?  and if so...what is the nature of this harm.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is an extremely difficult arena of discussion. Some examples range from the perplexingly-named "Protestant Foundation for Responsible Family Development" from the Netherlands (I'd appreciate our Dutch members who are likely more familiar with this organization to voice their opinion of it) which offers up there is virtually no harm to children from sexual contact, but instead society should feel empathy towards the harm it causes to the pedophile:

"We must also mention the harm caused to people of a pedophile nature. Through all of these prejudices and misconceptions, they are condemned to a half existence of not being themselves and cannot come to terms with themselves over their own feelings. If they do try to live according to their nature, they live in fear of discovery and punishment. This sometimes leads to tragedies - and these in turn reinforce the prejudices. It is a vicious circle. You can truly call this harm."

http://www.ipce.info/library_3/files/psvg_81_en.htm

A different viewpoint is maintained by a team of New Zealand researchers who conducted an extensive study on the subject and found "higher rates of major depression, anxiety disorder, conduct disorder, substance use disorder, and suicidal behaviors."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...st_uids=8885591

A Harvard study reports similar findings with "odds of suicide attempts were 2-4 times higher among women and 4-11 times higher among men"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.f...2&dopt=Abstract

In reference to your specific example, however, is to raise the issue of ephebophilia, which is actually a whole different arena for discussion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

EPHEBOPHILIA...a new word for me. I googled it and was surprised.

Always happy to broaden the vocabulary and knowledge base here...

Ephebophilia is for adults to be interested in or to have sex with adolescents....this seems to describe Polanski (by his own admission). I wish this term had come out earlier....I think that defining pedophilia as interest or sex with pre-adolescent children and ephebophilia as interest or sex with adolescent children would make a HUGE difference in people's attitudes.

I'm not sure I would change my opinion of Polanski. Saying he prefers "very, very young women" and the 13 (can't get any younger "teen" than thirTEEN) year old rape is more indicative of a pedophile. He reportedly was often found in the company of 12-13 year olds and from what I understand about ephebophiles is that they are more inclined to an older segment.

I also googled "Protestant Foundation for Responsible Family Development" and found a booklet about pedophilia published by them. It is a thoughtful piece but I must warn those who have strong negative reactions to the topic of pedophilia that it will likely push your buttons hard since it describes what activities commonly perfomed by pedophiles and suggests that unless force is used they do no harm in and of themselves.....I really think that reading it might push some 'over the edge' temporarily so be cautious.....but I think its worth reading even if you disagree with it.

Was the booklet you found different than the one on the first link I posted? It is indeed quite a provocative writing. Along the lines of the above pedophile vs ephebophiles discussion, one of things it does state is:

"Pedophiles are drawn to children between the ages of about eight and fifteen."

(Coincidentally, the same age frame Polanski seems to prefer.)

The two psychological studies youi gave links for were interesting. If a researcher wants to do a study of sexual child abuse to discover its negative effects, what does the researcher do? Well, they go to places where child abuse has been reported and then study the people or data involved. It is unlikely that the scenerio which I described above (a willing, experienced 15 year old) would ever be included in one of these studies because there is no harm perceived by any of the parties involved......the studies covered situations which are not typical of my scenerio in the least....but they are good studies since they do show that when children are victimized there are consequences that could continue throughout their life and it underscores how vulnerable children are and why they need to be protected.

I realize that the studies showing the damage done by abuse didn't necessarily match your specific scenario, but I'm not of aware of any empirical studies that do. With a lack of proper research into it, we're left with conjecture. My take is that it may be harmful as adolescents are often unable to totally understand the physical, emotional, and social consequences of sexual activity. Of course, the same might also be said of many of those people classified as "Adults." The potential for the type of increased difficulties described in the above-cited studies is certainly there. This very potentiality is partially why the majority of societies often make these liaisons illegal. What's your take?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I somehow missed this post of yours so I'll respond now.

You say that Polanski was 'reportedly' often with 12 to 13 year olds....where was this reported? I'm not wanting to open the door to rumors...but I do understand the point that drawing a line between pre-pubescence and adolescence is problematic.

I'm not sure if the pamphlet I found is the same because I missed your link....its probably the same one, though...at least it is from the same society so the attitude is most likely the same. As you point out they say that pedophiles are attracted to children between the ages of 8 and 15....this is the range for the last years of pre-pubescence...some children are start puberty as late as 15. Starting puberty at the age of 10 is considered normal but earlier that this is considered to be 'precocious puberty'. So I would say that between the ages of 8 to 15 would be an age for finding pre-pubescent children...I'm not concerned if the pamphlet includes ephebophilia in its definition of pedophilia....I make a distinction and I think that the biology of the human species indicates that a distinction is understandable.

As to your last paragraph...(talking about the studies of child abuse victims and that they do not represent the scenerio I presented but that they should still be taken as indicators of the increased possibility of harm because adolescents are often unable to totally understand the physical, emotional, and social consequences of sexual activity), I do agree with you about this. Children are vulnerable to manipulation and as they mature they become less so...this happens at varing rates depending on the individual. Most if not all societies do have laws to regulate the sexual activity of children and of adults toward children and these laws vary considerably on the age of sexual consent. The law has to draw a line in terms of age for this as there is no other easy way to make an appearance of fairness. Onset of menstruation was (and perhaps still is) used in some societies. My opinion on this is that the law must be clear and unbiased but in fact the age at which a person is capable of making an informed decision about having sex varies highly from individual to individual and I, personally, will not condemn anyone who have sex with another individual who is capable of making an informed decision about sex....regardless of age. I know that the law can not be worded this way but even most legal systems have latitude for allowing for variations of this sort...that's why we have judges and juries...so that the law is more fairly interpreted.

About the difference between pedophilia and ephebophilia: Many years ago....so long that I do not know the source....I read that a study was done of what characteristics a female has that indicates to males (we're talking humans here) that she is ready for sex. The study was done across cultures as they were looking for a biological recognized attribute, not a cultural one. I believe that the outcome was that the one and only female attribute that was universally recognize by males across all cultures was having hips that were some certain percentage(I forget what it was) larger than the waste. This means that biologically when a female goes into puberty and her hips widen this is a signal to males that she is available for mating. I'm not saying that I think that this justifies someone having sex with her....I'm just saying that biologically it is natural for a male to be sexually attracted to adolescents...it is not perverted....it also means (at least to me) that seeking out pre-pubescent females for sex is probably not natural and is probably indicitive of some developmental problem.

Edited October 20, 2005 by chownah

[sriracha john]

As for Mr. Polanski, they are:

Wanted fugitive.

Convicted rapist.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

can't argue with that

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

common ground then, good.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

are we getting towards the last word on the Polanski matter ? Make it like a good steak ... not overdone

[Boon Mee]

are we getting towards the last word on the Polanski matter ?  Make it like a good steak  ...  not overdone   

Bet he didn't know he was this famous, eh?

...well overdone...

[sriracha john]

This topic brings out the reactionaries amongst us; how about stringing him up from the nearest tree when you get the chance?

If anyone has any feelings of forgiveness after 30 years, it would be a nice thing. It seems however that the reactionary elements all want to stand up and be counted, well done.

How many of you men would walk away if you were talking to a very cute girl and getting on well, she has consented to accompany you home. There, after getting comfortable and excited etc, she lets drop that she is underage.

Oh, all of you, congratulations, you are very good men!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can only forgive someone who asks for it. By evading his punishment.... irregardless if it was 100 years, he has not asked for forgiveness.

If he had faced his crime at the time and served his due sentence, people would be more inclined to react the way you want them to be.

If the Kanchanaburi policeman double murderer of Brits had managed to elude police for a long period of time, would we all be saying.... "oh it's ok, forgive him."

would you expect us to??

OR....

as in the case of the subject of this discussion, he already knew she was 13.. so your scenario doesn't really match. Having already known her age, he went on to administer a powerful tranquilizer, followed by alcohol, and then forced himself on her with a sodomizing act. How many of you men here would do that?

I don't know. I know I wouldn't.