E-Commerce Site Advice

[SoloFlyer]

Hi all,

Am about to set up an e-commerce site selling local items internationally. I'm no web expert, so I'm getting someone else to do the bulk of the site work, hopefully teaching me along the way.

I'm liking what some of these 'out-of-the-box' providers are offering. I think it would be way too big of a job to build a site from scratch incorporating some of these features which I think are important.

My pick of the bunch so far is 'BigCommerce'. I like the multi-channel retailing; automatic marketing; Facebook integration (quite important); inventory control; coupons and certificates, amongst other things.

I'm about to start meeting some candidates for the site work. What are the basics I need to flesh out with them, before we even start getting into the detailed bits.???

I will be wanting them to do:

- graphical design work (have some logo work done already from one of the design 'auction' sites) - so incorporating that into a web layout, and I guess designing the 'template' of the site.

- executing hosting and registration (with my input).

- monthly or periodic 'refreshers' of site - colour schemes, font changes, banners to keep it fresh.

- doing the initial product uploads, and teaching me how (via batch uploading - ftp, csv, or whatever ??)

- assisting coming up with postal rates - shipping rates: global/zones/ by item weight, bulk weight.

- payment systems - start with Paypal, but move on to credit cards and direct debit later.

- report generating: make sure the system offers a daily (or other period) report of all orders that can be printed/emailed to warehouse staff for quick and easy postal/shipping.

- making sure the inventory control system is working as it should.

So Im looking for any tips and advice on how to achieve these initial goals. What am I over or under shooting on? What are the obvious things I am missing already? What will web companies try to change me on?

I guess I'm particularly looking for negotiating techniques/tips to make sure I get what I want (or need, if I havent covered it here).

Edited July 6, 2011 by SoloFlyer

[manarak]

I wouldn't use a paid product if there are good free products available, like Zencart or xtcmodified, published under GPL.

I am a php programmer and able to do all of the above, including teaching you how to use the shop as a "webshopmaster".

- monthly or periodic 'refreshers' of site - colour schemes, font changes, banners to keep it fresh.

I don't think that's a good idea.

Refresh contents, yes.

Change colors and fonts, no.

That's because most customers like to recognize the shop and value stability in design and looks.

To determine the optimal software for your needs, you need to setup a precise list of requirements.

I'm ready to work for an hourly rate (with defined maximum budgets per deliverable)

or

a fixed fee + a variable % interest in the shop's sales.

[phuket Mike]

The first thing I would say is that BigCommerce is a hosted solution i.e. all your site and data is stored on their servers. You just buy a domain name and point it at their web space. Some people would have a problem with this because it means moving or extracting your data can be difficult.

Having said I think you will be hard pushed to find a better product in the open source arena, certainly BigCommerce have very good Facebook integration, pulling product details directly from your store. Most other systems only have basic integration, share, like, product reviews and wish list publication. Although there are a number Facebook applications that will add a shopping cart to your fan page, most of them require you enter the items yourself, so you have to maintain two systems.

There are many open source products I have used Prestashop, Zen and Magento, most of which are free but you will need to pay for hosting. Layout and template mods can be done relatively easily by an experienced designer/developer. Additional features can also be added by installing extensions. Personally I like Prestashop, good range of features, plug-ins and language options.

[Yme]

Agree with some of the other comments. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and it makes clients totally unbearable at times when they THINK they know all the answers and try and tell the website designer/ builder how to do the job.

If it's a modest size site there's no reason why WordPress or ZenCart cant't handle the task and we've built a few using both.

Why is Facebook so important? Do you know what the average return rate for visitors to Facebook pages is? Or how much it costs for each sale per year? Suggest you research this a bit more before you put it on your "must have" list.

Have you factored the cost os optimizing your site into the equation? Most designers and coders know nothing about SEO and if you're a commercial selling site you'll want your site optimized as much as possible - which includes the descriptive text. Don't even try and fool yourself that just because you were born speaking English (if you were) it means you can write well in English and optimize the text yourself.

Think you should focus on the basics first. A well designed, open-sourced eCommerce site that has been optimized to draw traffic that buys what you are selling.

This training? You expect it to be part of the design/build cost?

[makescents]

Frankly this is going to be an expensive en-devour.

Most of the Open Source carts listed on this thread "Zen Cart" in particular are messy to program and bloated beyond most peoples requirements. If anyone mentions OsCommerce, run like the wind.

Magento has recently become popular as of late and is easier to work with than Zen, although designers have complained that it's not easy to work with. Prestashop is also a nice clean solution, free to boot.

For your modifications go to a site such as rentacoder.com or elance.com and avoid the overpriced rookies based in Thailand unless you want your site full of SQL-injection security holes.

[Tatsujin]

Hope you got a Work Permit for doing this . . .

[bangkockney]

Seems like you're looking for a business partner, not a contractor!

You should be speccing out the job and having your developer build it. It's your job to decide on shipping rates. It's your job to tell the designer how you want to manage your catalogue (XML, FTP, php backend, etc). It's your job to tell the developer what reporting tasks the system must be able to perform. It's your job to tell them hoe inventory is to be managed.

You need a job completely specced out before you start approaching developers otherwise you'll never get a reliable estimate.

Suggest you buy a copy of Top 500 Internet Retailers for inspiration.

[SoloFlyer]

I wouldn't use a paid product if there are good free products available, like Zencart or xtcmodified, published under GPL.

I am a php programmer and able to do all of the above, including teaching you how to use the shop as a "webshopmaster".

- monthly or periodic 'refreshers' of site - colour schemes, font changes, banners to keep it fresh.

I don't think that's a good idea.

Refresh contents, yes.

Change colors and fonts, no.

That's because most customers like to recognize the shop and value stability in design and looks.

To determine the optimal software for your needs, you need to setup a precise list of requirements.

I'm ready to work for an hourly rate (with defined maximum budgets per deliverable)

or

a fixed fee + a variable % interest in the shop's sales.

Thanks Manarak. I will keep you i mind. I'm working on my list of requirements, and this thread is a means to that end. When I'm nearly done, perhaps we could do an hours consultation??

Appreciate your comments on the 'refreshers'. Im thinking of using a 'magazine' style template/page design. So I would like to keep it fresh with periodic layout changes - but would keep it within the overall 'feel' of the website.

[SoloFlyer]

The first thing I would say is that BigCommerce is a hosted solution i.e. all your site and data is stored on their servers. You just buy a domain name and point it at their web space. Some people would have a problem with this because it means moving or extracting your data can be difficult.

Having said I think you will be hard pushed to find a better product in the open source arena, certainly BigCommerce have very good Facebook integration, pulling product details directly from your store. Most other systems only have basic integration, share, like, product reviews and wish list publication. Although there are a number Facebook applications that will add a shopping cart to your fan page, most of them require you enter the items yourself, so you have to maintain two systems.

There are many open source products I have used Prestashop, Zen and Magento, most of which are free but you will need to pay for hosting. Layout and template mods can be done relatively easily by an experienced designer/developer. Additional features can also be added by installing extensions. Personally I like Prestashop, good range of features, plug-ins and language options.

Thanks Mike. I understand its hosted and do have some concerns about moving if I need to later. Any ideas on how to ensure such a move would go smooth?? Am glad you support BigCommerce, and yes, thats the facebook integration I need. People I'm talking to use Prestashop. I'm waiting to see what they come up with.

[SoloFlyer]

Agree with some of the other comments. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing and it makes clients totally unbearable at times when they THINK they know all the answers and try and tell the website designer/ builder how to do the job.

If it's a modest size site there's no reason why WordPress or ZenCart cant't handle the task and we've built a few using both.

Why is Facebook so important? Do you know what the average return rate for visitors to Facebook pages is? Or how much it costs for each sale per year? Suggest you research this a bit more before you put it on your "must have" list.

Have you factored the cost os optimizing your site into the equation? Most designers and coders know nothing about SEO and if you're a commercial selling site you'll want your site optimized as much as possible - which includes the descriptive text. Don't even try and fool yourself that just because you were born speaking English (if you were) it means you can write well in English and optimize the text yourself.

Think you should focus on the basics first. A well designed, open-sourced eCommerce site that has been optimized to draw traffic that buys what you are selling.

This training? You expect it to be part of the design/build cost?

Cheers Yme. Yeah I'm trying to arm myself with some of that knowledge, from you guys, while I'm working out what I need.

Facebook is important because thats where the proof of concept comes from. Thats where the marketing has worked so far and is the basis for this expansion. I'm not looking at finding customers through SEO, but through FB networks. The concept idea has reached 5k friends in 6 months and is turning over ... a fair bit. I just want the website to be a little less 'hands-on' than requiring sitting at FB all day replying to comments to get the sales. So it really is a 'must have' for us. Once we get that organised we may look at SEO optimisation down the track.

Training: yes, a built in 'extra', if you will.

[SoloFlyer]

Frankly this is going to be an expensive en-devour.

Most of the Open Source carts listed on this thread "Zen Cart" in particular are messy to program and bloated beyond most peoples requirements. If anyone mentions OsCommerce, run like the wind.

Magento has recently become popular as of late and is easier to work with than Zen, although designers have complained that it's not easy to work with. Prestashop is also a nice clean solution, free to boot.

For your modifications go to a site such as rentacoder.com or elance.com and avoid the overpriced rookies based in Thailand unless you want your site full of SQL-injection security holes.

Yeah Scents, thats what I'm worried about with OSource ... and what happends when the one we use gets 'dated'??? Its a big push towards the package deal.

Thans for the tips on rentacoder and elance ... we did our logo design using a similar service.

[SoloFlyer]

Seems like you're looking for a business partner, not a contractor!

You should be speccing out the job and having your developer build it. It's your job to decide on shipping rates. It's your job to tell the designer how you want to manage your catalogue (XML, FTP, php backend, etc). It's your job to tell the developer what reporting tasks the system must be able to perform. It's your job to tell them hoe inventory is to be managed.

You need a job completely specced out before you start approaching developers otherwise you'll never get a reliable estimate.

Suggest you buy a copy of Top 500 Internet Retailers for inspiration.

BKKy, you putting your hand up?? Your probably right I could use one. This is part of me speccing out the job. I do wanna tell the developer all the things you mention, but I'm trying to arm myself up with the options first. And hence I'm here, appreciating your input.

Will look at that top500.

[Darrel]

Don't even try and fool yourself that just because you were born speaking English (if you were) it means you can write well in English and optimize the text yourself.

I doubt that anyone who was born speaking English would need to be fooling around with ecommerce websites to earn a living. A couple of appearances on TV and in magazines would set them up for life.

Edited July 8, 2011 by Darrel

[manarak]

I wouldn't use a paid product if there are good free products available, like Zencart or xtcmodified, published under GPL.

I am a php programmer and able to do all of the above, including teaching you how to use the shop as a "webshopmaster".

- monthly or periodic 'refreshers' of site - colour schemes, font changes, banners to keep it fresh.

I don't think that's a good idea.

Refresh contents, yes.

Change colors and fonts, no.

That's because most customers like to recognize the shop and value stability in design and looks.

To determine the optimal software for your needs, you need to setup a precise list of requirements.

I'm ready to work for an hourly rate (with defined maximum budgets per deliverable)

or

a fixed fee + a variable % interest in the shop's sales.

Thanks Manarak. I will keep you i mind. I'm working on my list of requirements, and this thread is a means to that end. When I'm nearly done, perhaps we could do an hours consultation??

Appreciate your comments on the 'refreshers'. Im thinking of using a 'magazine' style template/page design. So I would like to keep it fresh with periodic layout changes - but would keep it within the overall 'feel' of the website.

Thanks.

Layout requirements are very important for shops, because most shops will only allow a limited number of possibilities regarding layouts. So it is important to make that input at the very beginning, so that the capabilities of the shop's template engine can be verified.

IMO, it is important that you keep the header and the fonts identical from one 'issue' to another (as newspapers and magazines do). And the main product menu should always be in the same place too, so that returning customers find it easily.

Sure I can help you with the shop, consultation or more :-)

Another poster also had a good point about Bigcommerce being a hosted solution.

I would avoid that - the reason being that it might not be easy to get "off the hook" afterwards.

If you have your own independent shop, you really control your codebase, the database, content and the pictures, email addresses for marketing, etc.

And many tasks can be automated, such as sending emails or SMS.

[bangkockney]

Or just do it right first time and build for purpose.

Too much shoe-horning with an ecommerce build will be disastrous.

You say check the template engine is up to the job. I say make it fit for purpose right from the get-go.

The most important requirement is to be able to easily incorporate multivariate testing. I've yet to see an out-of-the-box solution that lets you do this intuitively.

You could easily waste money making OS fit-for-task when a custom build would have been better (and represent better value).

[manarak]

Frankly this is going to be an expensive en-devour.

Most of the Open Source carts listed on this thread "Zen Cart" in particular are messy to program and bloated beyond most peoples requirements. If anyone mentions OsCommerce, run like the wind.

Magento has recently become popular as of late and is easier to work with than Zen, although designers have complained that it's not easy to work with. Prestashop is also a nice clean solution, free to boot.

For your modifications go to a site such as rentacoder.com or elance.com and avoid the overpriced rookies based in Thailand unless you want your site full of SQL-injection security holes.

Yeah Scents, thats what I'm worried about with OSource ... and what happends when the one we use gets 'dated'??? Its a big push towards the package deal.

Thans for the tips on rentacoder and elance ... we did our logo design using a similar service.

What happens when your system gets dated?

Well, in general the system runs fine (if you chose well) and hackers stop attacking you.

I have been using opensource software for over 10 years now, and only had a major security problem when I was learning PHP at the beginning.

Now I use mostly "dated" PHP systems (CMS, OSCommerce...).

I manage my own servers (the hardware is my physical property), and I run ModSecurity, which is a pretty good defense wall against most common attacks.

I also run hardened PHP, obfuscated server and software versions, upload directories mounted with noexec flag, etc.

No problem for over 7 years now. *touches wood*

[manarak]

Or just do it right first time and build for purpose.

Too much shoe-horning with an ecommerce build will be disastrous.

You say check the template engine is up to the job. I say make it fit for purpose right from the get-go.

The most important requirement is to be able to easily incorporate multivariate testing. I've yet to see an out-of-the-box solution that lets you do this intuitively.

You could easily waste money making OS fit-for-task when a custom build would have been better (and represent better value).

Yes... my production versions are always modified from an opensource base.

I take software that more or less does what I want, and then I modify it to do exactly what I want.

[SoloFlyer]

I wouldn't use a paid product if there are good free products available, like Zencart or xtcmodified, published under GPL.

I am a php programmer and able to do all of the above, including teaching you how to use the shop as a "webshopmaster".

- monthly or periodic 'refreshers' of site - colour schemes, font changes, banners to keep it fresh.

I don't think that's a good idea.

Refresh contents, yes.

Change colors and fonts, no.

That's because most customers like to recognize the shop and value stability in design and looks.

To determine the optimal software for your needs, you need to setup a precise list of requirements.

I'm ready to work for an hourly rate (with defined maximum budgets per deliverable)

or

a fixed fee + a variable % interest in the shop's sales.

Thanks Manarak. I will keep you i mind. I'm working on my list of requirements, and this thread is a means to that end. When I'm nearly done, perhaps we could do an hours consultation??

Appreciate your comments on the 'refreshers'. Im thinking of using a 'magazine' style template/page design. So I would like to keep it fresh with periodic layout changes - but would keep it within the overall 'feel' of the website.

Thanks.

Layout requirements are very important for shops, because most shops will only allow a limited number of possibilities regarding layouts. So it is important to make that input at the very beginning, so that the capabilities of the shop's template engine can be verified.

IMO, it is important that you keep the header and the fonts identical from one 'issue' to another (as newspapers and magazines do). And the main product menu should always be in the same place too, so that returning customers find it easily.

Sure I can help you with the shop, consultation or more :-)

Another poster also had a good point about Bigcommerce being a hosted solution.

I would avoid that - the reason being that it might not be easy to get "off the hook" afterwards.

If you have your own independent shop, you really control your codebase, the database, content and the pictures, email addresses for marketing, etc.

And many tasks can be automated, such as sending emails or SMS.

Thanks Mana, ... As much as I would like to have the whole thing built independently, I cant justify it just yet. And I'm not up to speed on all the technical stuff.

Thanks for your comments on Layout. I see where your coming from.

[SoloFlyer]

Or just do it right first time and build for purpose.

Too much shoe-horning with an ecommerce build will be disastrous.

You say check the template engine is up to the job. I say make it fit for purpose right from the get-go.

The most important requirement is to be able to easily incorporate multivariate testing. I've yet to see an out-of-the-box solution that lets you do this intuitively.

You could easily waste money making OS fit-for-task when a custom build would have been better (and represent better value).

BKKney, how much would it cost to build a custom site with the requirements I'm looking for?

[SoloFlyer]

How much should I be paying for a customised template for a bigcommerce site?

[dave111223]

Most of the Open Source carts listed on this thread "Zen Cart" in particular are messy to program and bloated beyond most peoples requirements. If anyone mentions OsCommerce, run like the wind.

Magento has recently become popular as of late and is easier to work with than Zen, although designers have complained that it's not easy to work with. Prestashop is also a nice clean solution, free to boot.

You describe Zen Cart as "bloated" and yet you recommend Magento?? Magento requires a VPS or dedicated server just to run it without 20 second page loads... and package is 20MB!

[makescents]

Most of the Open Source carts listed on this thread "Zen Cart" in particular are messy to program and bloated beyond most peoples requirements. If anyone mentions OsCommerce, run like the wind.

Magento has recently become popular as of late and is easier to work with than Zen, although designers have complained that it's not easy to work with. Prestashop is also a nice clean solution, free to boot.

You describe Zen Cart as "bloated" and yet you recommend Magento?? Magento requires a VPS or dedicated server just to run it without 20 second page loads... and package is 20MB!

I recommended Magento because they offer a hosted solution.

If you're getting 20 second page loads then you need to check your configurations.

[manarak]

Most of the Open Source carts listed on this thread "Zen Cart" in particular are messy to program and bloated beyond most peoples requirements. If anyone mentions OsCommerce, run like the wind.

Magento has recently become popular as of late and is easier to work with than Zen, although designers have complained that it's not easy to work with. Prestashop is also a nice clean solution, free to boot.

You describe Zen Cart as "bloated" and yet you recommend Magento?? Magento requires a VPS or dedicated server just to run it without 20 second page loads... and package is 20MB!

I recommended Magento because they offer a hosted solution.

If you're getting 20 second page loads then you need to check your configurations.

I never really understand people who complain about a software being bloated.

Size may have mattered when diskspace was expensive, but at the price 500GB or 1TB disks sell for today, the 20 or 30 MB more or less don't matter at all.

The most important thing is that the software is secure and very flexible, coded in a way that is not too abstract and allows for easy customization. It should also include a lot of features (that you can deactivate if you don't need them) and allow for modular inclusion of third party mods.

The more explicit and linear the code, the easier the software will be to modify.

Performance matters, but to the extend to chose the software that will render 300ms quicker than the other.

Regarding bloated code, it can be sent through an optimizer like Zend Optimizer or something similar, so that it doesn't matter so much...

I prefer bloated, explicit and linear over elegant and abstract code that is difficult to modify because everything is in objects and arrays that get fed directly into templates.

Anyway, the speed advantage does not play out until the shop is big enough to be completely overhauled by professional programmers and the maintenance sourced out.

[dave111223]

I recommended Magento because they offer a hosted solution.

If you're getting 20 second page loads then you need to check your configurations.

That's with all the caching settings turned on, but on a shared hosted.

Host Solution = Cookie cutter site held hostage where you will never be able to properly customize, should the need arise (ie something like needing to write a script to export orders in a specific format for a label printer etc..)

Size may have mattered when diskspace was expensive, but at the price 500GB or 1TB disks sell for today, the 20 or 30 MB more or less don't matter at all.

I use 20MB as a comparison; when most carts like Zen-cart, osCommerce weigh in at like 3-4MB and even CRE Loaded (which has more features that Magento) is only 6MB...so why would this cart necessitate 20MB (4 or 5 times more than the average cart)? Because it's over written...

Why would you need to wrap MySQL functions with about 5 different intertwined classes with each class containing 1000s of lines of code? The truth is you don't; it's just become super anal-retentive; it's code in that way to be "neat" and "smart" just for the sake of being "neat/smart" and nothing else. It provides no performance boost and means that any custom code requires about 10 times as long to write, because you've got to trace anything back through about 8 different classes to find where data is coming from.

I mean i'm all for tidy OOP but you've got to draw a line somewhere; every time i work on Magento i want to punch myself in the face.

Also i think too many people look at the outside of the cart and this "this is better", "this one is worth" just because of the default themes it comes with. Yes Magento looks good out of the box, osCommerce by comparison looks like a 10 year old piece of crap, but who runs a store that just "out of the box"...?

Many people think they will be fine with a cookie cutter stored but there truth is as soon as you start actually selling products in volume you will need to customize things to make more efficiently for you.

For example if wasn't able to print of 20 invoices at a time, or print out EMS forms on a dot matrix it would be a real pain in the butt...

[SoloFlyer]

Thanks for the input guys.

[manarak]

Why would you need to wrap MySQL functions with about 5 different intertwined classes with each class containing 1000s of lines of code? The truth is you don't; it's just become super anal-retentive; it's code in that way to be "neat" and "smart" just for the sake of being "neat/smart" and nothing else. It provides no performance boost and means that any custom code requires about 10 times as long to write, because you've got to trace anything back through about 8 different classes to find where data is coming from.

I mean i'm all for tidy OOP but you've got to draw a line somewhere; every time i work on Magento i want to punch myself in the face.

Totally agree!

[makescents]

I never really understand people who complain about a software being bloated.

Because bloated software is slow and doesn't scale.

[manarak]

I never really understand people who complain about a software being bloated.

Because bloated software is slow and doesn't scale.

That isn't true anymore.

Today, it can be quite fast and can scale up and beyond the point where the shop is so big that the owner will be able to afford a complete re-programming and outsource the maintenance.

Did you read my post?