Thailand's Democrats Seek Ban On Thaksin Party

[rixalex]

I raised a point to one of your replies which was completely relevant to the topic.

Sorry i did't fall in line with your regulations Chairman Mao.

I don't think anyone was trying to lay down regulations. Everyone is free to post what they wish, within the rules of course.

It is frustrating though when during a debate or discussion, you ask a direct question for it to be ignored and for the responder to head off on their own tangent. Might just as well take away the interacting with each other side of it, and post our own random unconnected thoughts.

To those who repeatedly have questioned in this thread the Democrats audacity and poor sportsmanship, in bringing this matter up, i have repeatedly asked the simple question: is it possible that PTP broken electoral laws? Yes or No.

If "yes", should laws broken be overlooked when those concerned win?

If on the other hand you confidently think "no", that PTP have done no wrong, what is the problem with having it investigated? Nothing will come of it and the Dems look silly for bringing forward a case with no grounds.

I look forward to someone directly responding to these points/questions. I'm not holding my breath though.

[yellow1red1]

apologies ,,, only read the first 10 pages... Does anybody come up with the question on who sammy hill the Elite Party thinks they could align with? BJT had, what, 6 seats?

I really agree with all the Posts that say none of them any better than the other. The Elite party has more of a formula for slicing the cake and Thaksin's is much more open ended.

The Posts that say why call it the Democratic Party? Right on. They are nothing like the Republicans in America but way more aligned to the military, elite, busineness than they are to the Democratic US party. Which parties could be branded 'socialist' not the Thai Democrat or US Replubicans,,, The thhai Phue Thai and the American Democrats, though, ,,, the arrow could be shot ... It;s joke to see expats aligning with the Democrats in Thailand and the Democrats in the US, they are way not the same.

Anyway, on this topic,,, who in the sam would the Elite Party partner up with if they throw another coup onto the fire? they should really think about that before wasting everybody's time and blood. they can't hop one one foot forever.

[OzMick]

"What you are saying is ridiculous because I doubt whether.............." Nothing is ridiculous because you doubt it.........if you knew, on the other hand, perhaps.

As I informed you after your last post, voting is compulsory in Thailand but it is not enforced. Voting is NOT compulsory in Australia, though attendance at a polling station is. If you fail to attend, there is a wide choice of possible excuses, and only a small fine. The other alternative is to change address and not re-register on the electoral roll.

The fair and balanced outcome that you get in Australia is more because politicians obey electoral law because it is strictly enforced - now isn't that a good idea?

As I asked you last post, do you think the large majority of those to feckless/idle/drunk/stupid to vote to be PTP supporters? On what do you base that, the ones that did vote?

When someone breaks a law which personally affects you, like snatching your handbag, will you call to the nearby Police "let it go, its only B10,000 and a gold chain!" or like the GK do you believe that laws are relative and that you get to decide if they are serious or not?

The weakness of non-compulsory voting regimes is that governments can be seen to lack legitimacy by those sections of the populace who chose not to cast a vote. A characteristic of non-compulsory voting is that it makes it easier for special interest groups to vote themselves into power if large sections of the population do not participate in the political process.Because it maximises voter turnout, compulsory voting also maximises the amount of campaign cost reimbursement—public moneys paid to candidates and parties polling a minimum of 4 per cent at an election.Can't remember Australia having any coups in the last couple hundred years.

In 2007 there were 13,645,073 registered voters in Australia out of a population of 20 million, which is pretty high.

If u wan't legitimacy u need to change the status quo!!

If you wish to post as a reply, could you please keep it relevant to the post being replied to, and possibly answer some of the questions raised in it.

Why compare compulsory and non compulsory voting when Thailand is compulsory but not enforced (for the 3rd time)?

The reason Australia hasn't had coups is because no Oz PM would dream of unfairly promoting his family members to high positions in the courts or military, refused to hold elections, or tried to bankrupt the country with his thieving. If Keating or Fraser had offered food aid to say Fiji, but it all had to be bought from his farm, they would have been out of a job so fast they wouldn't have time to blink.

Which legitimacy and which status quo are you referring to?

I raised a point to one of your replies which was completely relevant to the topic.

Sorry i did't fall in line with your regulations Chairman Mao.

Really, which one?

I don't have regulations, it's just that i don't like people attaching unrelated statements to a supposed conversation. If you wish to speak TO me, feel free. If you wish to speak AT me, do so as an individual post, as I prefer NOT to have my name associated with your thoughts, especially the erroneous ones.

Are you related to Yingluk? When she is asked a direct question, she also like to change the subject.

[whybother]

apologies ,,, only read the first 10 pages... Does anybody come up with the question on who sammy hill the Elite Party thinks they could align with? BJT had, what, 6 seats?

I really agree with all the Posts that say none of them any better than the other. The Elite party has more of a formula for slicing the cake and Thaksin's is much more open ended.

The Posts that say why call it the Democratic Party? Right on. They are nothing like the Republicans in America but way more aligned to the military, elite, busineness than they are to the Democratic US party. Which parties could be branded 'socialist' not the Thai Democrat or US Replubicans,,, The thhai Phue Thai and the American Democrats, though, ,,, the arrow could be shot ... It;s joke to see expats aligning with the Democrats in Thailand and the Democrats in the US, they are way not the same.

Anyway, on this topic,,, who in the sam would the Elite Party partner up with if they throw another coup onto the fire? they should really think about that before wasting everybody's time and blood. they can't hop one one foot forever.

Actually, BJT got 34 seats. Still no help though. Although, the PTP might like to use them (or the Matchicon factions) if a few too many MPs are banned and they are needed to shore up the majority. But I think 300 seats will be enough, and PTP would be likely to win any by-elections to replace banned MPs.

Although the Dems would like to be in government (of course), this action will not do that for them.

But that doesn't mean that they shouldn't do it. Maybe, just possibly, the new-PTP will learn that they shouldn't break electoral laws.

[473geo]

I raised a point to one of your replies which was completely relevant to the topic.

Sorry i did't fall in line with your regulations Chairman Mao.

I don't think anyone was trying to lay down regulations. Everyone is free to post what they wish, within the rules of course.

It is frustrating though when during a debate or discussion, you ask a direct question for it to be ignored and for the responder to head off on their own tangent. Might just as well take away the interacting with each other side of it, and post our own random unconnected thoughts.

To those who repeatedly have questioned in this thread the Democrats audacity and poor sportsmanship, in bringing this matter up, i have repeatedly asked the simple question: is it possible that PTP broken electoral laws? Yes or No.

If "yes", should laws broken be overlooked when those concerned win?

If on the other hand you confidently think "no", that PTP have done no wrong, what is the problem with having it investigated? Nothing will come of it and the Dems look silly for bringing forward a case with no grounds.

I look forward to someone directly responding to these points/questions. I'm not holding my breath though.

It is the inconsistencies that irritate...not the black and white are they guilty as charged........

For instance, it is my understanding that foreigners are not allowed to interfere in Thai politics..............but there are many opinions expressed on this forum......with what aim?

Therefore to follow the logic is a banned polititian allowed to express an opinion? or should you actually obey the law you so eagerly support and cease posting in the politics threads on Tvisa

Edited July 10, 2011 by 473geo

[whybother]

It is the inconsistencies that irritate...not the black and white are they guilty as charged........

For instance, it is my understanding that foreigners are not allowed to interfere in Thai politics..............but there are many opinions expressed on this forum......whith what aim....

Therefore to follow the logis is a banned polititian allowed to express an opinion, or should you actually obey the law you so eagerly support and cease posting in the politics threads on Tvisa

If Thaksin had just had interviews or just posted blogs about his thoughts, then that would have nothing to do with the PTP.

Posters on TVF have no relevant link to any political parties (regardless of how many accusations there are) and are just posting their opinions.

The difference in this case is Thaksin's DIRECT involvement in PTP's political campaign, and PTP's use of Thaksin for their own purposes (such as "Thaksin thinks. PTP acts".)

[dmcguire70]

I raised a point to one of your replies which was completely relevant to the topic.

Sorry i did't fall in line with your regulations Chairman Mao.

I don't think anyone was trying to lay down regulations. Everyone is free to post what they wish, within the rules of course.

It is frustrating though when during a debate or discussion, you ask a direct question for it to be ignored and for the responder to head off on their own tangent. Might just as well take away the interacting with each other side of it, and post our own random unconnected thoughts.

To those who repeatedly have questioned in this thread the Democrats audacity and poor sportsmanship, in bringing this matter up, i have repeatedly asked the simple question: is it possible that PTP broken electoral laws? Yes or No.

If "yes", should laws broken be overlooked when those concerned win?

If on the other hand you confidently think "no", that PTP have done no wrong, what is the problem with having it investigated? Nothing will come of it and the Dems look silly for bringing forward a case with no grounds.

I look forward to someone directly responding to these points/questions. I'm not holding my breath though.

If there are laws that say providing payment as incentive to vote is illegal,then i would say yes the Law has been broken. I still believe ,however that the Dems would have lost regardless..I also think if the Dems handed out payments to voters ,they too are breaking the law aren't they and should also be prosecuted. It's all a bit he said she said.

Is it legal to provide payment as incentive to vote? Quite possibly,but I don't know. If this is the case this subject should be dropped completely!

There's a lot of straw clutching going on here.

[OzMick]

I raised a point to one of your replies which was completely relevant to the topic.

Sorry i did't fall in line with your regulations Chairman Mao.

I don't think anyone was trying to lay down regulations. Everyone is free to post what they wish, within the rules of course.

It is frustrating though when during a debate or discussion, you ask a direct question for it to be ignored and for the responder to head off on their own tangent. Might just as well take away the interacting with each other side of it, and post our own random unconnected thoughts.

To those who repeatedly have questioned in this thread the Democrats audacity and poor sportsmanship, in bringing this matter up, i have repeatedly asked the simple question: is it possible that PTP broken electoral laws? Yes or No.

If "yes", should laws broken be overlooked when those concerned win?

If on the other hand you confidently think "no", that PTP have done no wrong, what is the problem with having it investigated? Nothing will come of it and the Dems look silly for bringing forward a case with no grounds.

I look forward to someone directly responding to these points/questions. I'm not holding my breath though.

It is the inconsistencies that irritate...not the black and white are they guilty as charged........

For instance, it is my understanding that foreigners are not allowed to interfere in Thai politics..............but there are many opinions expressed on this forum......with what aim?

Therefore to follow the logic is a banned polititian allowed to express an opinion? or should you actually obey the law you so eagerly support and cease posting in the politics threads on Tvisa

For myself at least, the aim is education and entertainment.

Yes, banned politicians are allowed to express an opinion, just not participate in the process. Your next question is illogical - AFAIK nobody posting here is a banned politician, and if they were, I doubt that it would be illegal to ANONYMOUSLY express an opinion.

@RIX I won't bother to answer your question as I suspect you know my views. good luck with it, though.

[473geo]

It is the inconsistencies that irritate...not the black and white are they guilty as charged........

For instance, it is my understanding that foreigners are not allowed to interfere in Thai politics..............but there are many opinions expressed on this forum......whith what aim....

Therefore to follow the logis is a banned polititian allowed to express an opinion, or should you actually obey the law you so eagerly support and cease posting in the politics threads on Tvisa

If Thaksin had just had interviews or just posted blogs about his thoughts, then that would have nothing to do with the PTP.

Posters on TVF have no relevant link to any political parties (regardless of how many accusations there are) and are just posting their opinions.

The difference in this case is Thaksin's DIRECT involvement in PTP's political campaign, and PTP's use of Thaksin for their own purposes (such as "Thaksin thinks. PTP acts".)

Oh I think some of the statements and wanton criticisms of party members and political comments on Tvisa would indicate direct involvement, if attempting to influence is the crime?

[OzMick]

I raised a point to one of your replies which was completely relevant to the topic.

Sorry i did't fall in line with your regulations Chairman Mao.

I don't think anyone was trying to lay down regulations. Everyone is free to post what they wish, within the rules of course.

It is frustrating though when during a debate or discussion, you ask a direct question for it to be ignored and for the responder to head off on their own tangent. Might just as well take away the interacting with each other side of it, and post our own random unconnected thoughts.

To those who repeatedly have questioned in this thread the Democrats audacity and poor sportsmanship, in bringing this matter up, i have repeatedly asked the simple question: is it possible that PTP broken electoral laws? Yes or No.

If "yes", should laws broken be overlooked when those concerned win?

If on the other hand you confidently think "no", that PTP have done no wrong, what is the problem with having it investigated? Nothing will come of it and the Dems look silly for bringing forward a case with no grounds.

I look forward to someone directly responding to these points/questions. I'm not holding my breath though.

If there are laws that say providing payment as incentive to vote is illegal,then i would say yes the Law has been broken. I still believe ,however that the Dems would have lost regardless..I also think if the Dems handed out payments to voters ,they too are breaking the law aren't they and should also be prosecuted. It's all a bit he said she said.

Is it legal to provide payment as incentive to vote? Quite possibly,but I don't know. If this is the case this subject should be dropped completely!

There's a lot of straw clutching going on here.

Vote-buying incentives are illegal, be they cash, food,alcohol, gifts.

Yes, the Democrats may have lost regardless. firstly, they have been inaccurately portrayed as responsible for the BKK deaths, and secondly because the didn't offer unfunded ridiculous handouts.

To be prosecuted, you have to be caught and solid evidence presented. Hearsay is not good enough. Providing solid evidence is difficult when so many deals are done behind doors.

More of the straw clutching is being done by those for some reason against following electoral law, with rabid accusations of sour grapes and trying to hold onto power. The result of the election will not be changed by either case - though we MAY have a different PM.

Edited July 10, 2011 by OzMick

[473geo]

I raised a point to one of your replies which was completely relevant to the topic.

Sorry i did't fall in line with your regulations Chairman Mao.

I don't think anyone was trying to lay down regulations. Everyone is free to post what they wish, within the rules of course.

It is frustrating though when during a debate or discussion, you ask a direct question for it to be ignored and for the responder to head off on their own tangent. Might just as well take away the interacting with each other side of it, and post our own random unconnected thoughts.

To those who repeatedly have questioned in this thread the Democrats audacity and poor sportsmanship, in bringing this matter up, i have repeatedly asked the simple question: is it possible that PTP broken electoral laws? Yes or No.

If "yes", should laws broken be overlooked when those concerned win?

If on the other hand you confidently think "no", that PTP have done no wrong, what is the problem with having it investigated? Nothing will come of it and the Dems look silly for bringing forward a case with no grounds.

I look forward to someone directly responding to these points/questions. I'm not holding my breath though.

It is the inconsistencies that irritate...not the black and white are they guilty as charged........

For instance, it is my understanding that foreigners are not allowed to interfere in Thai politics..............but there are many opinions expressed on this forum......with what aim?

Therefore to follow the logic is a banned polititian allowed to express an opinion? or should you actually obey the law you so eagerly support and cease posting in the politics threads on Tvisa

For myself at least, the aim is education and entertainment.

Yes, banned politicians are allowed to express an opinion, just not participate in the process. Your next question is illogical - AFAIK nobody posting here is a banned politician, and if they were, I doubt that it would be illegal to ANONYMOUSLY express an opinion.

@RIX I won't bother to answer your question as I suspect you know my views. good luck with it, though.

Anonymous interference in Thai politics..........but interference by foreigners is a crime, therefore the 'stick to the letter of the law' posters on Tvisa are declaring double standards by posting?

,

[geriatrickid]

Gosh, I still don't have an answer.

Do the people defending the complaints against PTP honestly believe that the motive is based solely on the accusers' love of Thailand, an respect for the rule of law and respect for the electoral process?

Or is the reluctance to respond because people know that the complaints are all about harrassment?

Lots of fanciful statements, but not one definitive answer that states that the Democrats are motivated by their respect for the law. Interesting.

If you aren't prepared to enforce electoral law, why bother with elections at all? Why not just point a gun at people's heads next time? He with the most guns wins. Oh wait you think that's wrong...

...so why aren't you prepared to have electoral law enforced?

I am fully supportive of enforcing electoral laws. However, proper law enforcement requires judgement and common sense. Many of the allegations seem to me petty harrassment. Do you even know what the complaints relate to? Do you know who is involved? It seems to me that you do not.

According to published reports, as of June 30 the Election Commission had received a total of 111 direct complaints about alleged campaign violations of which around 51 related to allegations of slander and/or "intimidation" by candidates. A reliable Bangkok newspaper reported that only 17 alleged cash handouts in return for votes, four complained of candidates organising food and social gatherings to gain support, 20 alleged government interference and non neurality, and 19 were related to campaign billboards and campaign rallies. Although these complaints were accompanied by evidence, in many cases, it is argued to be flimsy and unreliable. As of that date, there were also 410 anonymous complaints made via the EC's call center and/orwebsite with no supporting evidence.

The Thai Financial Post on July 3 reported that the were 185 complaints of electoral fraud and another 1,929 complaints made via the call center and/or website. Most of the reported fraudulent acts are allegations of vote buying or allegations of bias by state officials.

If there are legitimate serious breaches, then I certainly have no issue with the enforcement of the law I fully support the enforcement. What I do not support is launching a witch hunt based upon unfounded allegations The demand for zero tolerance is hypocritical. Those foreigners making the demand certainly do not obey the law 100% of the time. I'd wager that some of TVF's fiercest proponents of "upholding" the law are themseves not fully compliant with the laws concerning visas, land ownership, investments or other activity. And yet here they are holier than thou preaching the gospel according to the all knowing farang. I can't wait until there is an enforcement effort undertaken on visas and land ownership. A lot of the whiners will have something to really whine about then.

Edited July 10, 2011 by geriatrickid

[AleG]

If there are legitimate serious breaches, then I certainly have no issue with the enforcement of the law I fully support the enforcement. What I do not support is launching a witch hunt based upon unfounded allegations The demand for zero tolerance is hypocritical. Those foreigners making the demand certainly do not obey the law 100% of the time. I'd wager that some of TVF's fiercest proponents of "upholding" the law are themseves not fully compliant with the laws concerning visas, land ownership, investments or other activity. And yet here they are holier than thou preaching the gospel according to the all knowing farang. I can't wait until there is an enforcement effort undertaken on visas and land ownership. A lot of the whiners will have something to really whine about then.

"Thaksin thinks, Pheu Thai acts" Can you explain how that is not against banned politicians interfering in the political process?

[rixalex]

It is the inconsistencies that irritate...not the black and white are they guilty as charged........

Since when was the question, what irritates you?

The black and white of guilty or not guilty is the nub of the issue here. Are they or aren't they? If they are, they face the consequences, if not, they are innocent. All this other babbling is a complete irrelevance.

For instance, it is my understanding that foreigners are not allowed to interfere in Thai politics..............but there are many opinions expressed on this forum......with what aim?

Therefore to follow the logic is a banned polititian allowed to express an opinion? or should you actually obey the law you so eagerly support and cease posting in the politics threads on Tvisa

You talk about following logic but how can you follow something you have no grasp of?

[rixalex]

I am fully supportive of enforcing electoral laws. However, proper law enforcement requires judgement and common sense. Many of the allegations seem to me petty harrassment. Do you even know what the complaints relate to? Do you know who is involved? It seems to me that you do not.

According to published reports, as of June 30 the Election Commission had received a total of 111 direct complaints about alleged campaign violations of which around 51 related to allegations of slander and/or "intimidation" by candidates. A reliable Bangkok newspaper reported that only 17 alleged cash handouts in return for votes, four complained of candidates organising food and social gatherings to gain support, 20 alleged government interference and non neurality, and 19 were related to campaign billboards and campaign rallies. Although these complaints were accompanied by evidence, in many cases, it is argued to be flimsy and unreliable. As of that date, there were also 410 anonymous complaints made via the EC's call center and/orwebsite with no supporting evidence.

The Thai Financial Post on July 3 reported that the were 185 complaints of electoral fraud and another 1,929 complaints made via the call center and/or website. Most of the reported fraudulent acts are allegations of vote buying or allegations of bias by state officials.

If there are legitimate serious breaches, then I certainly have no issue with the enforcement of the law I fully support the enforcement. What I do not support is launching a witch hunt based upon unfounded allegations The demand for zero tolerance is hypocritical. Those foreigners making the demand certainly do not obey the law 100% of the time. I'd wager that some of TVF's fiercest proponents of "upholding" the law are themseves not fully compliant with the laws concerning visas, land ownership, investments or other activity. And yet here they are holier than thou preaching the gospel according to the all knowing farang. I can't wait until there is an enforcement effort undertaken on visas and land ownership. A lot of the whiners will have something to really whine about then.

With regards the last sentence, you seem the number one culprit.

All that people are asking for is the law to be applied. If a crime has been committed, punish, if not, don't. This is what you are arguing (at great winding length) against.

[OzMick]

I don't think anyone was trying to lay down regulations. Everyone is free to post what they wish, within the rules of course.

It is frustrating though when during a debate or discussion, you ask a direct question for it to be ignored and for the responder to head off on their own tangent. Might just as well take away the interacting with each other side of it, and post our own random unconnected thoughts.

To those who repeatedly have questioned in this thread the Democrats audacity and poor sportsmanship, in bringing this matter up, i have repeatedly asked the simple question: is it possible that PTP broken electoral laws? Yes or No.

If "yes", should laws broken be overlooked when those concerned win?

If on the other hand you confidently think "no", that PTP have done no wrong, what is the problem with having it investigated? Nothing will come of it and the Dems look silly for bringing forward a case with no grounds.

I look forward to someone directly responding to these points/questions. I'm not holding my breath though.

It is the inconsistencies that irritate...not the black and white are they guilty as charged........

For instance, it is my understanding that foreigners are not allowed to interfere in Thai politics..............but there are many opinions expressed on this forum......with what aim?

Therefore to follow the logic is a banned polititian allowed to express an opinion? or should you actually obey the law you so eagerly support and cease posting in the politics threads on Tvisa

For myself at least, the aim is education and entertainment.

Yes, banned politicians are allowed to express an opinion, just not participate in the process. Your next question is illogical - AFAIK nobody posting here is a banned politician, and if they were, I doubt that it would be illegal to ANONYMOUSLY express an opinion.

@RIX I won't bother to answer your question as I suspect you know my views. good luck with it, though.

Anonymous interference in Thai politics..........but interference by foreigners is a crime, therefore the 'stick to the letter of the law' posters on Tvisa are declaring double standards by posting?

,

You have changed the question, but the answer is the same. As long as I post under a pseudonym, you have no proof that I am a foreigner, and I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners. I also express my opinion amongst friends and family, but I don't attend political rallies or armed insurgencies.

As you also continue to post, I can only assume that you think the same way, or given the OP, that you think electoral law should be broken with impunity.

[473geo]

It is the inconsistencies that irritate...not the black and white are they guilty as charged........

Since when was the question, what irritates you?

The black and white of guilty or not guilty is the nub of the issue here. Are they or aren't they? If they are, they face the consequences, if not, they are innocent. All this other babbling is a complete irrelevance.

For instance, it is my understanding that foreigners are not allowed to interfere in Thai politics..............but there are many opinions expressed on this forum......with what aim?

Therefore to follow the logic is a banned polititian allowed to express an opinion? or should you actually obey the law you so eagerly support and cease posting in the politics threads on Tvisa

You talk about following logic but how can you follow something you have no grasp of?

Edit: no point in being dragged down to an inappropriate level

Edited July 10, 2011 by 473geo

[animatic]

'jkolak' timestamp='1310110431' post='4543965'

How stupid can you get. Being banned means they cannot serve in office. It doesn't mean they have to wear muzzles on their mouths.

Being banned means that they can't be INVOLVED in politics, NOT only that they cannot serve in office.

Tell That To Newin and Banhan

And to k. Thaksin, and about 100+ others from various parties. Only one more day for Thai citizens and Thai legal entities to file a complaint with the EC, so hurry up

As phiphidon already pointed out to you, it was filed quite some time ago against the Newin group coalition with the Dems in a clear-cut case of a banned politician being involved with a government, when the EC ruled in favour of the Dems. Sooooo......either the EC will be consistent, or the EC will be.....er.....partial. I, personally, would be surprised if the EC was anything other than consistent.

Then again if the totality of the evidence is significantly different and significantly more damning to the accused, then being consistent is not proper. Just because it is the same law doesn't mean the facts to be judged are the same, or that an over lay of similarity means the outcome should be exact.

Let the facts as found stand on their own merits, and the judgment reflect those facts.

The basic questions are:

Was there enough actual evidence to convict Newin for collusion with the Dems?

Apparently not. It seems Newin stays far enough in the back ground not to leave a paper trail or direct links. Is this right, no, but is this convict-able... seems not.

Is there significantly more evidence to use against Thaksin?

Well:

Thaksin Thinks, PTP Does. Is the sales pitch for the whole campaign.

Any time Thaksins aims are/were 'misstated' by PTP mps or leadership,

one word from Thaksin or via Noppadom and they change,

turn on a dime to his way.

Thaksin announces Yingluck, Yingluck is installed.

Thaksin says Minkwan takes the censure lead, he does,

Minkwan doesn't win Thaksin shoves himn to the bootm of the pile again.

Hopeful mp candidates rush to Thaksins side and great expense,

hoping for his nod to their campaigns.

New mps rush to Thaksin after their election,

before lucrative cabinet posts are assigned.

Thaksin rally posters across the country linking Thaksin to the PTP,

MORE pictures of Thaksin than any of the candidates, except his sister.

And on and on.

Edited July 10, 2011 by animatic

[OzMick]

Gosh, I still don't have an answer.

Do the people defending the complaints against PTP honestly believe that the motive is based solely on the accusers' love of Thailand, an respect for the rule of law and respect for the electoral process?

Or is the reluctance to respond because people know that the complaints are all about harrassment?

Lots of fanciful statements, but not one definitive answer that states that the Democrats are motivated by their respect for the law. Interesting.

If you aren't prepared to enforce electoral law, why bother with elections at all? Why not just point a gun at people's heads next time? He with the most guns wins. Oh wait you think that's wrong...

...so why aren't you prepared to have electoral law enforced?

I am fully supportive of enforcing electoral laws. However, proper law enforcement requires judgement and common sense. Many of the allegations seem to me petty harrassment. Do you even know what the complaints relate to? Do you know who is involved? It seems to me that you do not.

According to published reports, as of June 30 the Election Commission had received a total of 111 direct complaints about alleged campaign violations of which around 51 related to allegations of slander and/or "intimidation" by candidates. A reliable Bangkok newspaper reported that only 17 alleged cash handouts in return for votes, four complained of candidates organising food and social gatherings to gain support, 20 alleged government interference and non neurality, and 19 were related to campaign billboards and campaign rallies. Although these complaints were accompanied by evidence, in many cases, it is argued to be flimsy and unreliable. As of that date, there were also 410 anonymous complaints made via the EC's call center and/orwebsite with no supporting evidence.

The Thai Financial Post on July 3 reported that the were 185 complaints of electoral fraud and another 1,929 complaints made via the call center and/or website. Most of the reported fraudulent acts are allegations of vote buying or allegations of bias by state officials.

If there are legitimate serious breaches, then I certainly have no issue with the enforcement of the law I fully support the enforcement. What I do not support is launching a witch hunt based upon unfounded allegations The demand for zero tolerance is hypocritical. Those foreigners making the demand certainly do not obey the law 100% of the time. I'd wager that some of TVF's fiercest proponents of "upholding" the law are themseves not fully compliant with the laws concerning visas, land ownership, investments or other activity. And yet here they are holier than thou preaching the gospel according to the all knowing farang. I can't wait until there is an enforcement effort undertaken on visas and land ownership. A lot of the whiners will have something to really whine about then.

" Many of the allegations seem to me petty harrassment. Do you even know what the complaints relate to? Do you know who is involved? It seems to me that you do not."

Well pardon you for your arrogance. CD has posted extensively on this subject, but only you know the facts and intentions, and get to decide if the matter is petty or not.

Yes, there are a large number of complaints, but the subject of the OP was clear , obvious and well -documented, but petty in your view. Not in the view of others though.

Your last paragraph can only described as moral equivalence. Love or hate him, Bill O'Reilly is correct that it has no place in logical argument.

Still waiting for answers GK. none come to mind?

[473geo]

You have changed the question, but the answer is the same. As long as I post under a pseudonym, you have no proof that I am a foreigner, and I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners. I also express my opinion amongst friends and family, but I don't attend political rallies or armed insurgencies.

As you also continue to post, I can only assume that you think the same way, or given the OP, that you think electoral law should be broken with impunity.

We are discussing the action of breaking the law, you make my point so well, no matter if you are immune to prosecution, YOU are aware that YOU broke the law....that is where the double standards come in calling for the letter of the law to be followed

I've always followed the belief of one of my former business managers............rules are but a line in the sand, you may put your foot right over the line, you may just nudge your toe over the line.....but you will not be allowed to move the line...........

[dmcguire70]

Incentives to vote go on in one way or another in every country. Its called satisfying your constituents in exchange for their vote.

Here in Australia we call it pork barrelling and it happens at state and federal level.

This government is legitimate,even the army has accepted the peoples vote ,so why can't the moderators here do the same.

It's like a child throwing his toys out of the cot.

[rixalex]

Edit: no point in being dragged down to an inappropriate level

You are the one attempting to drag the discussion down by trying to make the banal comparison of anonymous foreigners exchanging political views on an internet forum with a politician who has been banned from political activity but yet allowed himself to be the voice and the face at the centre of an election campaign.

[OzMick]

You have changed the question, but the answer is the same. As long as I post under a pseudonym, you have no proof that I am a foreigner, and I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners. I also express my opinion amongst friends and family, but I don't attend political rallies or armed insurgencies.

As you also continue to post, I can only assume that you think the same way, or given the OP, that you think electoral law should be broken with impunity.

We are discussing the action of breaking the law, you make my point so well, no matter if you are immune to prosecution, YOU are aware that YOU broke the law....that is where the double standards come in calling for the letter of the law to be followed

I've always followed the belief of one of my former business managers............rules are but a line in the sand, you may put your foot right over the line, you may just nudge your toe over the line.....but you will not be allowed to move the line...........

" ..........I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners."

Did you miss that bit? If you think that I am wrong please take it up with moderation, ask them why they allow political threads with illegal "participation" by foreigners. What are we up to now, 800 posts? Should we all be fined, jailed or deported? will PTP look after their sycophants?

So you are a manager; that explains the snide remarks about my previous employment. Paper pushers always need to look down on those that do the actual work, actually PRODUCE tangible results rather than reports for the next paper pusher up the line. Especially when they are better paid.

[473geo]

You have changed the question, but the answer is the same. As long as I post under a pseudonym, you have no proof that I am a foreigner, and I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners. I also express my opinion amongst friends and family, but I don't attend political rallies or armed insurgencies.

As you also continue to post, I can only assume that you think the same way, or given the OP, that you think electoral law should be broken with impunity.

We are discussing the action of breaking the law, you make my point so well, no matter if you are immune to prosecution, YOU are aware that YOU broke the law....that is where the double standards come in calling for the letter of the law to be followed

I've always followed the belief of one of my former business managers............rules are but a line in the sand, you may put your foot right over the line, you may just nudge your toe over the line.....but you will not be allowed to move the line...........

" ..........I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners."

Did you miss that bit? If you think that I am wrong please take it up with moderation, ask them why they allow political threads with illegal "participation" by foreigners. What are we up to now, 800 posts? Should we all be fined, jailed or deported? will PTP look after their sycophants?

So you are a manager; that explains the snide remarks about my previous employment. Paper pushers always need to look down on those that do the actual work, actually PRODUCE tangible results rather than reports for the next paper pusher up the line. Especially when they are better paid.

But you see OZ my interpretation and your interpretation differ......and yet either could be correct......and until the final arbitrator, a court of law, makes a decision....we are both entitled to our opinion.......which of course will carry no influence on any person reading this thread, otherwise we could be seen as trying to influence........makes you wonder why people get upset about anonymous opinions

Couldn't agree more about paper pushers.......that is why my hands on management style is so successful..........

Snide remarks?.........observations on the evidence you so kindly provided.......

[OzMick]

Incentives to vote go on in one way or another in every country. Its called satisfying your constituents in exchange for their vote.

Here in Australia we call it pork barrelling and it happens at state and federal level.

This government is legitimate,even the army has accepted the peoples vote ,so why can't the moderators here do the same.

It's like a child throwing his toys out of the cot.

"Here in Australia............" hmmm.

Pork barreling exists, but an informed and educated electorate expects, no demands, that the funding for promises is explained AND tested by independent accountants. There is no question that the govt is legitimate, should legitimate govts be accountable under the law?

BTW questioning of moderation is against forum rules and may lead to a holiday of a week, but this time, not to Thailand. Rawang (that means be careful in Thai)

[DumFarang]

You have changed the question, but the answer is the same. As long as I post under a pseudonym, you have no proof that I am a foreigner, and I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners. I also express my opinion amongst friends and family, but I don't attend political rallies or armed insurgencies.

As you also continue to post, I can only assume that you think the same way, or given the OP, that you think electoral law should be broken with impunity.

We are discussing the action of breaking the law, you make my point so well, no matter if you are immune to prosecution, YOU are aware that YOU broke the law....that is where the double standards come in calling for the letter of the law to be followed

I've always followed the belief of one of my former business managers............rules are but a line in the sand, you may put your foot right over the line, you may just nudge your toe over the line.....but you will not be allowed to move the line...........

This is actually a really good example of rules/laws and the philosophy of law enforcement, well my philosophy anyway. It reminds me of John Goodman's character in the movie The Big Lebowski when he spots someone's foot cross the line a bit in a bowling competition and when the guy claims he was legal Goodman goes as far as pulling a gun on him. Obviously it's the act of a disturbed man who constantly struggles with PTSD, and just as in your example the line on a bowling lane isn't going anywhere is it? But, do we as viewers condone that form of law enforcement, of course not. No sane person would.

My interpretation of laws/rules is similar to this. The line is the line, but should we lose a toe that crosses it and gets pulled back fairly quickly. Should it be so strict that a penalty must be enforced? When equating this to the real world I think not. In bowling I would probably take a different view.

However, including banned politicians in an electoral campaign isn't grazing the other side of the line with one's toe. It's stepping right over it and acting as if it doesn't or, even worse, shouldn't exist. If anything does come of this that works out negatively for the PTP I can only say, "you should've respected the line a bit more and known just how much leeway it can allow if your foot barely crosses it."

[OzMick]

You have changed the question, but the answer is the same. As long as I post under a pseudonym, you have no proof that I am a foreigner, and I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners. I also express my opinion amongst friends and family, but I don't attend political rallies or armed insurgencies.

As you also continue to post, I can only assume that you think the same way, or given the OP, that you think electoral law should be broken with impunity.

We are discussing the action of breaking the law, you make my point so well, no matter if you are immune to prosecution, YOU are aware that YOU broke the law....that is where the double standards come in calling for the letter of the law to be followed

I've always followed the belief of one of my former business managers............rules are but a line in the sand, you may put your foot right over the line, you may just nudge your toe over the line.....but you will not be allowed to move the line...........

" ..........I don't accept that stating my opinion is "interference"or 'participation", especially in an english-language forum aimed at foreigners."

Did you miss that bit? If you think that I am wrong please take it up with moderation, ask them why they allow political threads with illegal "participation" by foreigners. What are we up to now, 800 posts? Should we all be fined, jailed or deported? will PTP look after their sycophants?

So you are a manager; that explains the snide remarks about my previous employment. Paper pushers always need to look down on those that do the actual work, actually PRODUCE tangible results rather than reports for the next paper pusher up the line. Especially when they are better paid.

But you see OZ my interpretation and your interpretation differ......and yet either could be correct......and until the final arbitrator, a court of law, makes a decision....we are both entitled to our opinion.......which of course will carry no influence on any person reading this thread, otherwise we could be seen as trying to influence........makes you wonder why people get upset about anonymous opinions

Couldn't agree more about paper pushers.......that is why my hands on management style is so successful..........

Snide remarks?.........observations on the evidence you so kindly provided.......

Either interpretation could be correct, but mine is shared by moderation and every other poster it would seem. BTW I am known locally by my posting name, so it is not a totally anonymous posting.

Hands on management style - I have a fair idea what you have your hand on. Another manager set the manning scale, refusing to call in one man on overtime for a saving of less than a thousand dollars. By doing so, he broke the terms of the companies insurance policy which led to a bill in the millions. As usual, management put out an explanatory letter containing "Due to unforeseen circumstances........ " and how many times have I seen that. FUBs, the lot of you!

[animatic]

Drawing a zero tolerance to corruption line in the sand,

and not allowing any moral equivocation or historical grievances

color the actual use of law, should be sacrosanct as a basis

for implementing Democracy correctly.

It is a benchmark for the implementation and functioning of

checks and balances which is inherent to democracies proper functioning.

Oh, they got away with it in the past!

Oh, stopping it now, is a 'double standard'!.

Oh, they had guys doing the same thing!

We tried to convict them and they got off!

None of these arguments can be allowed in a proper democracy with the rule of law as reasons to NOT try and investigate or prosecute a probable crime.

Draw the line in the sand and prosecute ALL probable instances,

and those that meet the standards of proof WILL get punished.

Do it now, and not delayed; because it wasn't done properly in the past,.

From now on rule of law, and learn to deal with it, or fall.

Edited July 10, 2011 by animatic

[DumFarang]

Drawing a zero tolerance to corruption line in the sand,

not allowing an moral equivocation or historical grievances

color the actual use of law should be sacrosanct as a basis f

or implementing Democracy correctly.

It is a benchmark for the implementation and functioning of

checks and balances which is inherent to democracies proper.

Oh, they got away with it i the past!

Oh, stopping it now, is a 'double standard'.

Oh, they had guys doing the same thing.

None of these arguments can be allowed in a proper democracy with the rule of law.

Draw the line in the sand and prosecute ALL instances,

and those that meet the standards of proof WILL get punished.

Do it now, and not delayed, because it wasn't done properly in the past,.

From now on rule of law, and learn to deal with it, ar fall.

And who is paying all these people who can smother the line with enough eyes and ears to catch every little infraction?

Your stringent view looks nice on paper, but do you actually believe it's humanly possible?

[473geo]

Either interpretation could be correct, but mine is shared by moderation and every other poster it would seem. BTW I am known locally by my posting name, so it is not a totally anonymous posting.

Hands on management style - I have a fair idea what you have your hand on. Another manager set the manning scale, refusing to call in one man on overtime for a saving of less than a thousand dollars. By doing so, he broke the terms of the companies insurance policy which led to a bill in the millions. As usual, management put out an explanatory letter containing "Due to unforeseen circumstances........ " and how many times have I seen that. FUBs, the lot of you!

I guess when you do not know somebody, their employment record or achievements, it is ok to have the opinion that they fit in the same pidgeon hole as some crap manager in the electrical provison business.........yep great enhancement to your thinking process there OZ.