Soi Dogs

[Sophon]

I'm not sure if this is in the correct forum, if not please feel free to move it to a more suitable location.

I live on Soi On Nut in the Suan Luang district of Bangkok. Like just about any soi in Bangkok, our soi also has it's own local population of soi dogs (around 25-30 dogs). Between over population, lack of food, diseases and parasites these dogs lead a hard life, especially the female dogs who end giving birth to a never ending line of puppy litters, most of which end up dying before they have a chance to grow up.

We (the girlfriend and I) have decided to do our little bit to help these dogs have a better life. As I am retired funds are somewhat limited, so we are initially concentrating on getting the female dogs spayed and having as many dogs as possible vaccinated against rabies. There are already quite a few Thai people in our soi feeding the dogs, but we also do our part. Later, when we hopefully have the population growth under control, we will look into things like vaccinations for other diseases and treatment of flee/tick infestations and mange. Luckily, at the moment these areas don't seem to be a major problem here.

I know that there are people reading this sub-forum that are far more knowledgeable than me in this area, so I would appreciate any advice you could give me like:

[1] Does our strategy to initially concentrate on having the female dogs spayed to control the population sound reasonable?

[2] We are currently taking the dogs to our local animal hospital for spaying (7 dogs so far). We are happy with the care given to the dogs, but I know that it could be done cheaper, so given that funds are limited we would consider alternatives. Can anyone suggest a reasonably priced alternative not too far away?

[3] We feed the dogs Smart Heart dry food. Are there better alternatives? Please keep in mind that these dogs are not pets, and we cannot afford the perfect diet anyway, since we are trying to feed at least 10-15 dogs daily.

[4] Any suggestions for medication against flees/ticks/mange, how much does it cost and where can it be bought locally?

[5] We have already had most of the "easy" female dogs spayed, most of the remaining ones are vary of people and very difficult to get close to. Any good ideas on how to catch and get these to the hospital?

[6] Any other advice?

Any advice you can give us is greatly appreciated.

Also (and I know this is a long shot), if anyone is looking to adopt a dog we have five that could urgently use a new home. These five dogs are living at a construction site, and when the construction is finished it's very likely that they will be rounded up and brought to the district dog shelter. From what I hear this is not a very nice place to live, and since these dogs are very friendly with people they will be easy to catch.

Dee: Female 7-8 months old. Small/medium size dog. Very quiet and sweet dog.

Sweet Boy: Male 6-7 months. Small dog. Shy and quiet but friendly with people

Bite Girl: Female 6-7 months. Small/medium size dog. Got her name because she used to nip at our legs when she was a puppy, but she has grown out of that now.

Jump Girl: Female 8-9 months. Medium size dog. Loves people so much that she jumps up at them (hence her name)

Big Girl: Adult female of unknown age (maybe 2-3 years?). Quite big for a Thai dog. The pack leader and dominant towards other dogs but friendly with people.

All of these dogs are very friendly with people and would make good pets. I have a particular soft spot for Dee, who is one of the sweetest dogs I have ever met. If I didn't live in a condominium building where pets are not allowed, I would absolutely adopt her myself.

All four girls have already been spayed, and I would be happy to pay for the neutering of Sweet Boy if anyone would consider adopting him. Feel free to contact me if you want more details about any of the dogs.

Sorry about the long post, and thank you in advance for any advice you can give us.

Sophon

[AyG]

First, let me congratulate you one what you're doing. It's excellent.

Might I suggest that you contact one of the organisations already doing this sort of work and get their advice? SCAD and Head Rock Dogs are the obvious ones to contact.

In terms of treatment, I would have thought that heartworm medication would be a priority. Ticks and fleas aren't fatal, but heartworm is and leads to a horrible death.

[andrew55]

Dear Sophon,

What a wonderful thing you and your gf are doing. Bless you both.

I believe there are 1 or 2 clinics in BKK that provide services such as neutering at a very low cost. Think these are subsidised from various local and o/s animal welfare groups. Hope I am not wrong. Will enquire with a vet colleage today and post or email you this pm. I will also enquire as to your other queries - diet, parasite control, vacc's etc.

I know the joy of watching a dog sleep after its first flea bath. I find that once you've washed them you become the alpha with them wanting to be part of your pack. Guess I dominate by washing and they submit by being washed. I spend time in a rural soi. If I can lasso one, hitch it in nice and close to something solid, stand back while it does death rolls on the end of the rope like a pre-menstrual croc (or my ex). They run out of air sooner or later at which time i hitch 'em in snug and tie 'em off. From that day on they'll roll onto their backs everytime they see me. Even for the rare farang visitor. Guess we all look the same to them!! Sorry to waffle...

I'll get back to you this pm or eve.

Good kharma mate.

Good luck with the adoptees. Sure you'll miss them. I have a pick-up in bkk if you ever need a hand with transportation.

and you thought yours was long-winded...

[andrew55]

In terms of treatment, I would have thought that heartworm medication would be a priority. Ticks and fleas aren't fatal, but heartworm is and leads to a horrible death.

I think a dog needs to test clear of heartworm to safely take preventative meds. I may be wrong.

[Cuban]

Does our strategy to initially concentrate on having the female dogs spayed to control the population sound reasonable?

Sounds like a workable plan. The best thing would be via a group discount deal as mentioned above, does the place you go to charge the (farang) "list price", or are you able to do a deal where you line up five dogs in one session, these standard medical procedures can be carried out in production line fashion to reduce costs. If you are paying the piecemeal rate they will probably find a reason that operations can not be carried out in a way to reduce costs.

[3] We feed the dogs Smart Heart dry food. Are there better alternatives?

Feed raw meat scraps. Cooked bones can cause problems internally so avoid. Look at the availability of water if feeding dry biscuits. Pet dogs fed on biscuits develop tooth decay that some owners deal with via vets, a dog on the street with bad teeth will suffer infection etc. Raw fish is great and perfectly fine if just "on the turn" so a retailer can not sell it. If Mackerel or similar etc, cut off sharp spines & gill covers, otherwise head-to-tail is completely fine. My dogs love raw fish it is very good for bone growth in pups and skin/fur.

Any suggestions for medication against flees/ticks/mange, how much does it cost and where can it be bought locally?

Frontline is long lasting, but not cheap and might not be an effective use of funds. Sold at vets and some retail outlets.

To catch difficult dogs use a sedative drug in food (I can't recall the name ATM but a small yellow pill for 20 Baht a pop), one pill after 15 minutes the dog is dopey enough not to run away. If using a pole and loop to catch/control difficult dogs - use this every time you visit to give food, the dogs will associate it's presence with a food reward and not conflict. Even better if you use it to deliver food and the dogs play with it, rest it on the floor. Dogs read human facial expressions - I suggest that when you are on a hunting mission your manner and expression changes to that you have when playing with puppies - the dogs read your face and react accordingly.

Other advice: Some dogs should for their own misery or as a danger to people or other dogs should be removed from the population.

Re-housing soi-dogs.

OMG! If I were you I would think about this wonderful idea in a bit more detail before becoming a rehousing service. Dogs that live by their wits on the streets do not automatically become good house pets. Consider house training and integrating with children and other pets.

Talking about dogs that nip at your legs and "Loves people so much that she jumps up at them", is not understanding the mind of the dog. Taking the pups at 10 weeks old in a cage to JJ market is likely to produce a good future life for the dog as allowing them to learn a streetwise mindset then attempt to learn a new set of rules in a domestic setting where the new owner probably has not the time, ability or interest in teaching a street-dog to be a pet.

"....dominant towards other dogs but friendly with people." This is just because the dog has learnt on the street that appearing friendly to some humans elitists a food reward. The dog has learnt how to manipulate another animal to gain food. The dominant dog of a street pack will not easily assimilate the role of domestic pet.

The first question asked by any trainer presented with a difficult or problem pet is where did you get the dog from.

Sorry if you consider my words harsh, I have experience of a relative that attempted something similar in the past.

Trying to offer a dog as a pet you have named 'Bite Girl', good luck with that.

[elfe]

thank you so very much for your love for these animals and effort, money you put in to help them and give them a better life and a future. i just wish more people were like you.

first question, YES you will reduce population with that.

second, sorry i don't know...

third, if this food is not too expensive for you keep using it, it is not bad for those dogs. don't know about the price of smarheart but i use a brand called 'rishy' which comes about 580 baht per 15 kg and i have good results with this since many years. if you can of course it would be great if you mix meat with the food or give them treats like chicken etc be careful with bones and also be careful with bigger bones as fights will occur over them.

as someone above mentioned, make sure clean water is always available plenty in dogs area so they don't have to run far to drink.

ticks can give fatal blood parasites so should be prevented. if you use ivomec you can prevent and kill ticks, mites, some kinds of intestinal worms, and heartworm. you could buy a bottle of 100 ml for about 1500 baht. used as subcutaneous injection (neck) 1cc for 15kg bodyweight. if a dog is difficult to inject can also spurt in the mouth. ivomec is quite safe an no side effects and effective, have been using it for all my dogs since many years. don't use it for puppies under 4 months, for them use fleaandtick powder.

also deworm dogs every 6 months, deworming pills are inexpensive at vets.

against flea infestation only fleapowder (frequently used) or drop-on (expensive but last for about a month) are working.

i'm not a fan of sedating shy dogs to catch them. it is a risk they go to a place you cannot get them out too, like a hollow or such. also in their state of doze they are in danger of accident. so be very careful and cautious if using that. i know sometimes there is hardly another possibilty.

soidogs can make eccelent pets. i have taken in so many - also quite old dogs which had been living and fighting for life on the road for years. and all of them, even if shy or aggressive at first, became lovely and extremly thankful and attached dogs. house breaking usually is no problem and most of them don't make a mess in their house by instinct from the start (other than puppies). there are always exceptions, and f.e. some of my dogs tend to howl sometimes at night which is very disturbing, some dog will not get along with other dogs well, some dog will always pee on things inside house etc. and hard to come by. but these are RARE exceptions and also happen with dogs which have been bred or been bought in a petshop. so i can from my extensive experience advocate to take in a soi dog, they are the most loving and thankful dogs to their owner once settled which happens usually very quickly and depends on love and effort given by owner!

wishing all the best and best of luck for rehoming these wonderful dogs and them a bright future... thanks for all you do, you are wonderful!!!!

[AyG]

In terms of treatment, I would have thought that heartworm medication would be a priority. Ticks and fleas aren't fatal, but heartworm is and leads to a horrible death.

I think a dog needs to test clear of heartworm to safely take preventative meds. I may be wrong.

It's not strictly necessary to test beforehand if the dog is in reasonable shape. One approach to curing heartworm in a healthy dog is to give the heartworm medicine regularly. It takes about 18 months to get rid of the heartworm, but is far less traumatic for the dog than the more toxic drugs that quickly kill the heartworm.

[Sophon]

In terms of treatment, I would have thought that heartworm medication would be a priority. Ticks and fleas aren't fatal, but heartworm is and leads to a horrible death.

Thank you, I hadn't thought about heart worm. Ticks don't seem to be a problem here (I have only ever seen one on the dogs), probably because we have very little grass here, and the dogs don't have too many flees either. So I agree, heartworm is probably more important.

Sophon

[Sophon]

[3] We feed the dogs Smart Heart dry food. Are there better alternatives?

Feed raw meat scraps. Cooked bones can cause problems internally so avoid. Look at the availability of water if feeding dry biscuits. Pet dogs fed on biscuits develop tooth decay that some owners deal with via vets, a dog on the street with bad teeth will suffer infection etc. Raw fish is great and perfectly fine if just "on the turn" so a retailer can not sell it. If Mackerel or similar etc, cut off sharp spines & gill covers, otherwise head-to-tail is completely fine. My dogs love raw fish it is very good for bone growth in pups and skin/fur.

To catch difficult dogs use a sedative drug in food (I can't recall the name ATM but a small yellow pill for 20 Baht a pop), one pill after 15 minutes the dog is dopey enough not to run away. If using a pole and loop to catch/control difficult dogs - use this every time you visit to give food, the dogs will associate it's presence with a food reward and not conflict. Even better if you use it to deliver food and the dogs play with it, rest it on the floor. Dogs read human facial expressions - I suggest that when you are on a hunting mission your manner and expression changes to that you have when playing with puppies - the dogs read your face and react accordingly.

Other advice: Some dogs should for their own misery or as a danger to people or other dogs should be removed from the population.

Re-housing soi-dogs.

OMG! If I were you I would think about this wonderful idea in a bit more detail before becoming a rehousing service. Dogs that live by their wits on the streets do not automatically become good house pets. Consider house training and integrating with children and other pets.

The food issue is a balance between cost, benefit to the dogs and convenience. We don't have any easy/affordable source of raw meat, and dry food is easily bought and stored. I know it's not perfect, but the dogs certainly look a lot better since we have started feeding them. Other eople feed as well, so they also get rice and some scraps of meat.

We have tried giving a sedative to one dog we wanted to have spayed, but she crawled under a house when she started getting sleepy. Some of the dogs won't even take the food from us until we move away, meaning that it could easily be eaten by another dog than the one it was intended for. But we will keep trying.

I know that some soi dogs probably won't make good pets, but if I had any doubt at all about these five I would not have suggested them (I left out a sixth dog that I am not so sure about). The four younger dogs have all been socialised with people since they were puppies. Big Girl may not be suitable for a household with other pets, however.

Thank you for your advice, much appreciated.

Sophon

[Sophon]

thank you so very much for your love for these animals and effort, money you put in to help them and give them a better life and a future. i just wish more people were like you.

first question, YES you will reduce population with that.

second, sorry i don't know...

third, if this food is not too expensive for you keep using it, it is not bad for those dogs. don't know about the price of smarheart but i use a brand called 'rishy' which comes about 580 baht per 15 kg and i have good results with this since many years. if you can of course it would be great if you mix meat with the food or give them treats like chicken etc be careful with bones and also be careful with bigger bones as fights will occur over them.

as someone above mentioned, make sure clean water is always available plenty in dogs area so they don't have to run far to drink.

ticks can give fatal blood parasites so should be prevented. if you use ivomec you can prevent and kill ticks, mites, some kinds of intestinal worms, and heartworm. you could buy a bottle of 100 ml for about 1500 baht. used as subcutaneous injection (neck) 1cc for 15kg bodyweight. if a dog is difficult to inject can also spurt in the mouth. ivomec is quite safe an no side effects and effective, have been using it for all my dogs since many years. don't use it for puppies under 4 months, for them use fleaandtick powder.

also deworm dogs every 6 months, deworming pills are inexpensive at vets.

against flea infestation only fleapowder (frequently used) or drop-on (expensive but last for about a month) are working.

i'm not a fan of sedating shy dogs to catch them. it is a risk they go to a place you cannot get them out too, like a hollow or such. also in their state of doze they are in danger of accident. so be very careful and cautious if using that. i know sometimes there is hardly another possibilty.

soidogs can make eccelent pets. i have taken in so many - also quite old dogs which had been living and fighting for life on the road for years. and all of them, even if shy or aggressive at first, became lovely and extremly thankful and attached dogs. house breaking usually is no problem and most of them don't make a mess in their house by instinct from the start (other than puppies). there are always exceptions, and f.e. some of my dogs tend to howl sometimes at night which is very disturbing, some dog will not get along with other dogs well, some dog will always pee on things inside house etc. and hard to come by. but these are RARE exceptions and also happen with dogs which have been bred or been bought in a petshop. so i can from my extensive experience advocate to take in a soi dog, they are the most loving and thankful dogs to their owner once settled which happens usually very quickly and depends on love and effort given by owner!

wishing all the best and best of luck for rehoming these wonderful dogs and them a bright future... thanks for all you do, you are wonderful!!!!

Thank you for your advice and support, I know you have a lot of experience with this.

Our thinking behind spaying the female dogs rather than neutering the males is, that if a bitch is in heat there will always be an un-neutered male dog that finds her (maybe one of the owned dogs that we cannot have neutered). So better use the funds having the females spayed. On average, the females also seem easier to handle.

We buy the Smart Heart dog food for around 900 baht for 20 kgs. Dry food is reasonably priced and a lot more convenient to handle and store than fresh food, so I think we will stick with that for the moment. The dogs seem to thrive on it. We have tried giving them fresh water, but generally the dogs don't want to drink it. They seem to prefer drinking from the ceramic pots (the ones with water plants and guppies in them).

We will start to look into ticks, fleas and heart worm. The dogs don't seem to have any ticks, and though they undoubtedly have some fleas, you have to look carefully to find them. So at the moment I don't think this is a major problem. Maybe giving pills against heart worm is the more urgent issue. Do you have any brand name for heart worm pills that you can recommend?

Like you, I am sure that soi dogs can make very god pets, I did have one myself some years back (the one in my avatar). This may not be true for every soi dog, but these five are very trusting dogs that really enjoy contact with people. I know it's not easy to find someone who wishes to adopt grown dogs, but if you don't try the chances are even smaller.

Thank you again for your support and knowledgable input.

Sophon

[Cuban]

We have tried giving them fresh water, but generally the dogs don't want to drink it

Water from the tap will smell "funny" for a dog that is used to water that has the extra bits from fish poo and standing open for days compared to the tap chemical smell. If access to water is an issue consider soaking the biscuits in water for 5 minutes prior to serving.

[bina]

neutering may be cheaper since its a quicker less problematic operation; just a snip, no stitches *usually' and thats it; spaying usually needs a few days of keeping off the streets, keeping clean, etc....

ivomac: or subcutaneous (u grab the dog by the scruff, and using same hand to hold the injection and to inject using the palm of hand to push the plunger, at the same time releasing the scruff and the dog )-- takes practice; used this method on many of my less manageable goats, and on 'yard' dogs that were less then cooperative. or oral, as someone here posted, u jsut squirt in the mouth (or hide in tunafish/oil, putting a can in front of each dog to be dosed using a general sized dose. tuna is the only thing that hides the horrible flavour of ivomac (dont ask how i know the taste (... and most dogs seem to love tuna with oil.. or sardines.make sure the ivomac is at the middle or bottom, dont mix and stir, take out layer of tune, squirt the 'mac, then put other layer of tuna and oil on top.. dog eats, doesnt notice the taste until too late....

may i suggest u get a rabies vaccine. i think in thailand they are cheap, they are effective for several years (u can get blood titer tests to see when u need a new one) and dealing with strays, rabies is a factor. an up to date tetanus could also be good (the two main jabs needed when working with animals)...

bina

israel

[Tatsujin]

As has been mentioned before, get in touch with SCAD (www.scadbangkok.org) as they also provide spey/neuter services around Bangkok and rehoming etc.

Good luck OP, and thank you for caring.

[Galong]

In terms of treatment, I would have thought that heartworm medication would be a priority. Ticks and fleas aren't fatal, but heartworm is and leads to a horrible death.

Thank you, I hadn't thought about heart worm. Ticks don't seem to be a problem here (I have only ever seen one on the dogs), probably because we have very little grass here, and the dogs don't have too many flees either. So I agree, heartworm is probably more important.

Sophon

During certain times of the year, ticks are a huge problem for my five rescued dogs. Two of them have gotten really sick from tick fever. They both spent a lot of time at the vet.

The only thing that seems to work is monthly shots. It costs 900 Baht per month to get all five dogs shots... well worth it of course.

Keep up the wonderful work with our four-legged friends OP. You're both very kind souls!

[elfe]

well if you got yourself a bottle of ivomec and inject dogs yourself you could save a lot of money and maybe spend it on poor soidogs...

[Galong]

well if you got yourself a bottle of ivomec and inject dogs yourself you could save a lot of money and maybe spend it on poor soidogs...

If you're referring to my comment, how much is a bottle of ivomec? Where does one get a bottle? How would I know how much to give my dogs as they range in size from very small to fairly large? My vet gives me really good prices on dog and cat care (yep, got three rescued cats too even though I'm not really a cat person) and I kinda like to support the vet too. They make house calls, which is worth a lot to me too as it saves the hassle of carrying all of them to the vet for whatever ails them.

I pay for all of the soi dogs in my neighborhood whenever one has a problem. I've spent about 50K Baht this year on other people's/street dogs. It's beyond my conscience to let them suffer.

[elfe]

thank you for caring also for stray dogs or other peoples dogs who would not want to pay for any vet or medicine bills, am very happy for that!!! of course you would want to support your vet even more he/she comes to your house and also for being there in an emergency. as i stated already in my post further above, a bottle of ivomec (the euro-import as it's more effective than the cheaper local brands) costs about 1500 baht per 100ml. inject 1cc for 15 kg bodyweight. for normal use, as in parasite prevention use it every 2 months or even every month if necessary. for tick infestation you have to use it after 15 days again to kill the hatched babies. for mites/mange and heartworm infestation there are other dosages and frequencies for treatment.

[F1fanatic]

Like everybody else I have to thank you for taking care of the neglected soi dogs.

As you're (obviously) looking for cheap food - chicken carcasses are v cheap and the dogs love them.

And before anybody points out that they're not ideal, of course they're not! But they're v cheap and its only one in 10,000 (?) that choke on a chicken bone. Wild dogs eat chickens and their bones.

Heartgard prevents Heartworm, but is v expensive so you need to find a friendly vet that will provide it 'at cost'.

It sounds as if ticks are not a problem, which is v lucky as one of my dogs nearly died from a tick-borne parasite.

[Sophon]

neutering may be cheaper since its a quicker less problematic operation; just a snip, no stitches *usually' and thats it; spaying usually needs a few days of keeping off the streets, keeping clean, etc....

ivomac: or subcutaneous (u grab the dog by the scruff, and using same hand to hold the injection and to inject using the palm of hand to push the plunger, at the same time releasing the scruff and the dog )-- takes practice; used this method on many of my less manageable goats, and on 'yard' dogs that were less then cooperative. or oral, as someone here posted, u jsut squirt in the mouth (or hide in tunafish/oil, putting a can in front of each dog to be dosed using a general sized dose. tuna is the only thing that hides the horrible flavour of ivomac (dont ask how i know the taste (... and most dogs seem to love tuna with oil.. or sardines.make sure the ivomac is at the middle or bottom, dont mix and stir, take out layer of tune, squirt the 'mac, then put other layer of tuna and oil on top.. dog eats, doesnt notice the taste until too late....

may i suggest u get a rabies vaccine. i think in thailand they are cheap, they are effective for several years (u can get blood titer tests to see when u need a new one) and dealing with strays, rabies is a factor. an up to date tetanus could also be good (the two main jabs needed when working with animals)...

bina

israel

Yes, I know that having the males neutered is a simpler and cheaper procedure, but we have decided to (at least initially) concentrate on the females. We are afraid that even if we manage to neuter all the male soi dogs, there will still be intact males with owners in the neighbourhood. And I am sure that these will manage to get to any un-spayed females.

We will definitely start taking care of potential flee/tick/heartworm problems when I get back to Bangkok next month (I am back in Europe on holiday now). I am confident that most of the dogs will let us inject them, but there are a few we cannot even get close to when feeding them. It's good to know that Ivomac can also be given orally, now we just have to find somewhere to buy it (and suringes), but I guess the animal hospital we use should be able to help us with this.

I recently had rabies vaccine after being bitten by a dog that very likely had rabies (judging from her sudden and drastic change of behaviour). To be honest it wasn't much of a bite and barely broke the skin, but I guess that should keep me safe for the next year or so?

Thank you for your advice.

Sophon

[Sophon]

As has been mentioned before, get in touch with SCAD (www.scadbangkok.org) as they also provide spey/neuter services around Bangkok and rehoming etc.

Good luck OP, and thank you for caring.

We will contact them, especialy for advice/help with catching the dogs we are unable to get close to. However, I have the feeling they are quite busy at the moment with their recent move.

Thank you for the suggesion.

Sophon

[Sophon]

I kinda like to support the vet too. They make house calls, which is worth a lot to me too as it saves the hassle of carrying all of them to the vet for whatever ails them.

I agree with this sentiment. The hospital we use also have pick-up and return service of the dogs, and as we don't have a car ourselves, that is quite valuable for us. The doctor also came to our soi to vaccinate against rabies. We are very happy with their service and quality of care.

But when trying to take care of many animals on limited funds, in the end it comes down to finding a balance between cost, quality and convenience.

Sophon

[Sophon]

as i stated already in my post further above, a bottle of ivomec (the euro-import as it's more effective than the cheaper local brands) costs about 1500 baht per 100ml. inject 1cc for 15 kg bodyweight. for normal use, as in parasite prevention use it every 2 months or even every month if necessary. for tick infestation you have to use it after 15 days again to kill the hatched babies. for mites/mange and heartworm infestation there are other dosages and frequencies for treatment.

Could you expand on the treatment dosages/frequencies for mites, mange and heartworm? Isn't there tablets for preventive care against heartworm?

What kind of preventive regime would you suggest against heartworm, fleas and ticks for dogs that currently have no problems (to keep them that way)?

Thanks in advance.

Sophon

[Sophon]

Like everybody else I have to thank you for taking care of the neglected soi dogs.

As you're (obviously) looking for cheap food - chicken carcasses are v cheap and the dogs love them.

And before anybody points out that they're not ideal, of course they're not! But they're v cheap and its only one in 10,000 (?) that choke on a chicken bone. Wild dogs eat chickens and their bones.

Heartgard prevents Heartworm, but is v expensive so you need to find a friendly vet that will provide it 'at cost'.

It sounds as if ticks are not a problem, which is v lucky as one of my dogs nearly died from a tick-borne parasite.

At the moment the feeding is the least of our costs. We are not necessarily looking for the very cheapest or best food available. It's more important for us to find a balance between price and convenience, but of course the food should be something the dogs thrive on. If we find a cheap source for chicken carcasses of other byproducts we may start supplementing with that, but for the moment I think we will stick with the dry dog food for the sake of (our) convenience.

I have just found out today that there is actually one dog with tick problems in our soi, but it's not a soi dog but a dog owned by a quite poor family. The dog currently has puppies, but we have offered to pay to have her spayed when the puppies are a little older (currently they are about 4-5 weeks). We will try to take care of her parasite problems as well, but since she has owners we can only do what they agree to.

Thank you for your suggestion.

Sophon

[elfe]

hi sophon, gosh... more puppies....

i would go with ivomec injections every one or two months ( i do it every two months and it's fine) which kills ticks, mangemites, some intestinal worm and heartworm larvae. the tablets against heartworm have ivomec as ingredient, it is the same thing but a far less dose as heartworm larvae die of a very low dose of ivomac, other than tick and mange.

for flea use fleapowder (frequently) or drop-on (once a month) i use it rarely as my dogs don't roam around and new ticks cannot be brought in but sometimes other dogs visit us at the fence outside and some flea jump over... but with free dogs the flea problem is a never ending story. don't think the dogs don't have much flea if you only see few on them, that indicates already a lot and they live not on the dogs but in places where the dogs sleep or around that and only jump on dogs for suck blood. flea transfer eggs from tapeworm so they are not harmless and should be eliminated. if you see flea, deworming is a must.

for mama of puppies you can inject ivermec, it will kill all ticks in latest 24 hours and is not bad for the babies if they drink her milk, done that many times. for flea, rub flea and tick powder on whole family at least once a week. try to take off the ticks from puppies. deworm puppies with puppy deworming syrup, inexpensive in petshops or at vets.

provide mum with extra rich and frequent food, she needs it now, if you can. also the puppies need puppy food already. puppy vaccination at 2 mths age first time. deworming every two weeks for 3 times at least.

good luck

[bina]

ivomac/ivermac... european or american brands much more effective. when u buy ivermac, u can get large bottles for chickens and other animals that get oral dosages... the injectable stuff comes in higher concentration so u have to work out the dosages. ivermac dosages can be found readily on the internet... its officially (on label use) only for certain animals but various countries allow off label use including on people for certain parasites... there is a lot of leeway in overdosage for most large mammals, so if u miss a millileter or two its not a problem... our vets recommend to give the maximum dosage otherwise it is ineffective. therefore when injecting non cooperative animals, aim for maximum dosage rather then minimum since some might get in to the animal. igt tastes absolutely horrible btw, and when injecting can also for a pocket of the drug under the skin, so sometimes have to massage it in a bit after... and might itch. btw, never use ivermac on collies or collie mixes, nor in injectable form on horses as it will kill them. can be bought in farm stores for cheaper then in vet clinics and in thailand dont htink u need a prescription from a vet/ as for syringes... for small animals (rabbits etc), a 1000 unit syringe and diabetes needles (the short ones) work well; for larger animals, 1.5 mil and a larger longer needle (needles go by numbers and ivomac is thick and oily). to inject subcutaneously is easy once u get the hang of it, fairly painless to dogs, and worse comes to worse, u push the needle out the other side of the site (u pick up skin, make a tent, move your own finger out of way, and shoot with the palm of hand in to the syringe handle)... lots of stuff on the net in utube on how to SQ inject animals.

carambates (flea powder) works for about two days, for adult outdoor dogs u can get powder for chickens,same chemicals but more industrial strenght and probably cheaper from a farm store then a vet clinic. its a bit higher dosage, works better, but not for lactating bitches or young pups... use gloves and stand down wind from the powder. good to dust the general sleeping areas they lay around, but not around their water sources... if u over powder a dog, he will froth at tmouth and be sluggish, hose him down well to get the powder off.

rabies preventative : not sure if the shots u got are also a preventative.. check it out with health services and do a blood titer to see how your antibodies are ... believe it or not i worked for 10! years with aniamsl including wild injured mammals, and then vet assistant and never got the shot cause health clinics here wouldnt give to me- rules now changed, its a requirement for anyone working with livestock... as we say in hebrew: more luck then brains... bitten much , no rabies.

spaying sounds good plan also...

raw chicken carcasses are fine, uncooked bones are not dangerous to dogs, its the cooked bones that cause problems.

i think that rabies shots would be a must; here there are plans that use rabies vaccine in bait for oral distribution among wild packs with some effectiveness, not sure if thailand does that but rabies vaccines are one thing that most coutnries dont allow anyone but a vet or wildlife officer to deal with, for whatever reasons.

and rabies cannot be mixed in a syringe with other meds. sometimes a vet will give a med cocktail of antibiotics and vitamins or ivomac depending on the animals and the vet bt rabies is never mixed. the dosage is the same btw for all mammals, from dogs to goats and horses...at least here.

good luck...

bina

israel

[camu]

Fantastic effort indeed -- many thx -- every little bit helps -- I facilitate quite a bit of sterilization work of stray cats and dogs in BKK and can certainly help you get them done at at very good price -- doing the females first is indeed the right approach! Vaccination against rabies is of course important -- if you can get hold of the dogs it's always better to vaccinate them after they've recovered from their surgeries -- most practical to give them a combined vaccine that includes rabies. Older dogs have usually built an immunity already so rabies would be the only thing truly required. It's easy to treat dogs like this against mange, most intestinal worms, heart worm as well as ticks and fleas with ivermectin given orally mixed in some tasty food -- the easiest by far is the tablet-form -- cheap and effective -- no need to get dogs blood-tested first. Ticks are rampant lethal here and many dogs suffer from blood parasites from which they can easily die -- this too is easily treated with an antibiotic called doxycycline -- also inexpensive but requires a daily routine for several weeks. When dogs are lethargic, don't eat much and become thin and sick-looking that's usually a sign that blood parasites are present although the best thing is to have them blood-tested. Fleas can cause tape worm which also makes dogs very thin and unhealthy -- also easily treatable with a couple of doses of more specific dewormers. Additionally, dogs that are not easily picked up, being shy, unsocialized and/or aggressive my staff and I can often blow-dart which a sedative -- I have a dog truck and cages for transportation. I'll send you a personal message via your email so that you can get in touch with me -- I can easily get you all the meds I described and guide you with dosages, etc. Best I have a look at the entire lot and take it from there.

Thank you again for your great effort -- we need tons of people like you whom I am always happy to help!

Camu

[Sophon]

hi sophon, gosh... more puppies....

I know As cute as they are and as much as I love puppies, we really need to get this under control. Thats why the priority for us right now is on getting the dogs spayed.

Just in the small side soi I live in we had three dogs giving birth about six weeks ago. The one I mentioned in my post had six puppies (one of which has since died), another right in front of my condo had five puppies (two have been adopted, a little too early but we cannot control that) and the third apparantly had three puppies, but she is hiding them so we haven't seen them yet. But the people in this soi like to take puppies back home when they go back up north/northeast to their homes in the rainy season (to harvest rice?), so the surviving puppies tend to get adopted.

But if someone want a puppy, just let me know

i would go with ivomec injections every one or two months ( i do it every two months and it's fine) which kills ticks, mangemites, some intestinal worm and heartworm larvae. the tablets against heartworm have ivomec as ingredient, it is the same thing but a far less dose as heartworm larvae die of a very low dose of ivomac, other than tick and mange.

for flea use fleapowder (frequently) or drop-on (once a month) i use it rarely as my dogs don't roam around and new ticks cannot be brought in but sometimes other dogs visit us at the fence outside and some flea jump over... but with free dogs the flea problem is a never ending story. don't think the dogs don't have much flea if you only see few on them, that indicates already a lot and they live not on the dogs but in places where the dogs sleep or around that and only jump on dogs for suck blood. flea transfer eggs from tapeworm so they are not harmless and should be eliminated. if you see flea, deworming is a must.

for mama of puppies you can inject ivermec, it will kill all ticks in latest 24 hours and is not bad for the babies if they drink her milk, done that many times. for flea, rub flea and tick powder on whole family at least once a week. try to take off the ticks from puppies. deworm puppies with puppy deworming syrup, inexpensive in petshops or at vets.

provide mum with extra rich and frequent food, she needs it now, if you can. also the puppies need puppy food already. puppy vaccination at 2 mths age first time. deworming every two weeks for 3 times at least.

good luck

We have given the owners a bag of puppy food to supplement the milk they get from their mother. The mother looks ok, we feed her when we see her, but she spends most of her time inside the house.

Thank's again for all your advice.

Sophon

[Sophon]

Fantastic effort indeed -- many thx -- every little bit helps -- I facilitate quite a bit of sterilization work of stray cats and dogs in BKK and can certainly help you get them done at at very good price -- doing the females first is indeed the right approach! Vaccination against rabies is of course important -- if you can get hold of the dogs it's always better to vaccinate them after they've recovered from their surgeries -- most practical to give them a combined vaccine that includes rabies. Older dogs have usually built an immunity already so rabies would be the only thing truly required. It's easy to treat dogs like this against mange, most intestinal worms, heart worm as well as ticks and fleas with ivermectin given orally mixed in some tasty food -- the easiest by far is the tablet-form -- cheap and effective -- no need to get dogs blood-tested first. Ticks are rampant lethal here and many dogs suffer from blood parasites from which they can easily die -- this too is easily treated with an antibiotic called doxycycline -- also inexpensive but requires a daily routine for several weeks. When dogs are lethargic, don't eat much and become thin and sick-looking that's usually a sign that blood parasites are present although the best thing is to have them blood-tested. Fleas can cause tape worm which also makes dogs very thin and unhealthy -- also easily treatable with a couple of doses of more specific dewormers. Additionally, dogs that are not easily picked up, being shy, unsocialized and/or aggressive my staff and I can often blow-dart which a sedative -- I have a dog truck and cages for transportation. I'll send you a personal message via your email so that you can get in touch with me -- I can easily get you all the meds I described and guide you with dosages, etc. Best I have a look at the entire lot and take it from there.

Thank you again for your great effort -- we need tons of people like you whom I am always happy to help!

Camu

Thanks your for the info and your kind offer to help. It really is very much appreciated. I would love if we could catch the more difficult dogs and get them spayed (none of them are agressive, only scared) and get them spayed.

I will reply to your pm by mail.

Thanks again.

Sophon

[dotx]

As has been mentioned before, get in touch with SCAD (www.scadbangkok.org) as they also provide spey/neuter services around Bangkok and rehoming etc.

Good luck OP, and thank you for caring.

We will contact them, especialy for advice/help with catching the dogs we are unable to get close to. However, I have the feeling they are quite busy at the moment with their recent move.

Thank you for the suggesion.

Sophon

If you're in Europe at the moment, get a dart gun. If you learn how to use them well, they're a good tool to catch the unfriendly dogs. Better than pills, since the darts are effective within minutes, so the dogs don't have time to crawl too far. We're doing the same thing (spaying the local females) in my neighborhood and the dart gun has been a godsend. There were 3 females we couldn't catch and kept having puppies. We finally decided we couldn't wait any longer and just used the dart gun (a friend bought it in England and brought it over). Worked fine and the dogs (finally!) got the much-needed surgery.

[Sophon]

A short update.

Thanks to the invaluable help of Camu we have managed to get another 12 dogs to the vet over the last couple of days, many of which we would not have been able to catch on our own. One of these also have a (perhaps cancerous) growth that hopefully the vet can remove.

Another 10 or so dogs and we should have the situation under control

Thank you again to everyone for their advice, and a special thanks to Camu.

Sophon