Bt300 Minimum Wage To Cost Additional Bt140 Billion: Thai Chamber

[ableguy]

So what is the bottom line.......the minimum wage hike is unacceptable because business profit demands dictate business simply cannot afford it?

Or the business managers are rolling happily along and don't want to afford the new minimum wage level as they may have to get out and increase turn over to accomodate the rise?

Businesses fall into many different categories, many are operated on a very thin profit margin because of competition. The percentage of companies who make very large net profit is not that big. Small business is the backbone of total business in every capitalist country in the world - mostly small business with limited profit and high risk of failure.

The competitors who are clever will take your customers in a second if your not very careful, which means that you need to devote a lot of time to etaining clients, and often this means price, as well as gaining new clients in case a segment in your business model changes / disappears, etc etc., the old 80/20 principle.

What's to some extent missing from this whole argument is other means to share the bottom line common wealth of Thailand or any country. Redistribution of wealth.

One factor is taxes. You might note that pt have said raise daily pay and reduce corporate tax all in the same breath. Day one of economics 101 says that equation doesn't compute. And why am I left thinking that policy to reduce corporate taxes, or any taxes, is totally innapropriate when pt have offered a plate of goodies which will bankrupt thailand in five minutes. Plus there's no increased budget for education.

Policies to share the wealth need to be looked at much more seriously. The first example is health - well something is in place already but could be much better. Another simple examples, subsidized mass transport, and other factors which would comparitively put quite a lot of extra cash in the pocket of low wage earners.

Another possibility for Thailand is to 'force' a better geographical spread of factories, value added work, etc. In some states in India you apply for a licence to start a new enterprise, and if it's approved the government also indicate where it much be located within that state, to spread work opportunites, often including freight subsidies etc., taken from the overall common wealth.

The dems started the policies and laws to produce a capital gains tax, another way to redistribute wealth and common in many countries in the world, don't see pt talking about this and probably never will.

For me the long-term bottom line is: a lot more attention to real education which breeds analytical, creativy, innovative people and a better spread / volume of value added work opportunites which ultimately means that a much larger percentage of all Thais have a good quality of life through their own productivity. I don't see pt talking about any elements of this - just lots of unaffordable goodies.

Productivity to my mind is essentially a bi product of the way employees are managed, educated and trained. Are we blaming political parties for the lack of effort to develop employees? Perhaps if business is educated to accept their staff as something more than a cheap expendable resource, they may take on the role of development more readily. Many of the major corporates have these type of development programs in place......perhaps a contributor to their global success.

Quite true that productivity is very important, and resources invested wisely to generate productivity and quality gains is one way to possibly be ahead of your competition, but the clever competitor is always lurking to steal your customers, perhaps by price or perhaps by other clever marketing activities.

But it's also the responsibility of government to take care of the various foundations.

The country is lacking infrastructure to place factories the same as India does, ie railways.

[tommyboy928]

Of course, the financial wizards at Peua Thai had NO IDEA what the cost of their campaign promise might be...and the poor working people assumed it was some kind of magic made by Khun Thaksin.

Promise them anything, and then have someone else to blame when the result (election landslide) is achieved, and the thing won't fly...where was the Thai Chamber of Commerce during the campaigning?

IF READ WHAT this women has promised the Thai people in all subjects ,its a fantasy that will never come thru. So lets see in 2 years whats done. My guess its close to silo...

[kikoman]

One must forget how much the cost of living has increased in Thailand in the last ten years since I have live in Thailand. Yet the minimum wage has lagged far behind the rise in the cost of living. I for one feel that a business that can not or will not pay their employees a decent living wage, should not be in business making their profit off the backs of the working poor!

Those who say that 170 -250 plus baht per day is a living wage, I would like those individuals to try living on that amount of money each month. The Democrats have only themselves to blame for a lost election, when they were in power they had a chance to be the party for all Thai's, not just the rich (they failed in that regard).

Just my opinion!

Cheers

Edited July 16, 2011 by kikoman

[rixalex]

One must forget how much the cost of living has increased in Thailand in the last ten years since I have live in Thailand. Yet the minimum wage has lagged far behind the rise in the cost of living. I for one feel that a business that can not or will not pay their employees a decent living wage, should not be in business making their profit off the backs of the working poor!

Those who say that 170 -250 plus baht per day is a living wage, I would like those individuals to try living on that amount of money each month. The Democrats have only themselves to blame for a lost election, when they were in power they had a chance to be the party for all Thai's, not just the rich (they failed in that regard).

Just my opinion!

Cheers

And with the PTP now admitting that their promise is unrealistic and impossible to implement, exactly how are they different from the Dems, apart from the fact that they are prepared to lie and give false hope in order to win power? Are the Dems to blame for not having also lied?

It's all very well, and it's all very easy to say "i think the poor should be paid more". Of course everyone wants that. Problem is it's not as easy as just saying, "ok, lets raise everyone's wages by 50% tomorrow". Kindergarten economics is all that is.

[rubl]

One must forget how much the cost of living has increased in Thailand in the last ten years since I have live in Thailand. Yet the minimum wage has lagged far behind the rise in the cost of living. I for one feel that a business that can not or will not pay their employees a decent living wage, should not be in business making their profit off the backs of the working poor!

Those who say that 170 -250 plus baht per day is a living wage, I would like those individuals to try living on that amount of money each month. The Democrats have only themselves to blame for a lost election, when they were in power they had a chance to be the party for all Thai's, not just the rich (they failed in that regard).

Just my opinion! Cheers

Even in the Western world there are not too many companies which pay more than market value or minimum wage for employees. Very simplisticly put, a business has three objectives, survive by making money, continuity with workforce through reasonable wages, a bit extra for the boss who risked his money in the first place. Nothing to do with exorbitant profits.

In Thailand the balance between reasonable wages, price settings and the like still need adjustment in favour of the workers. To 'suddenly' increase minimal wages by 50% is suicide for both companies as well as workers.

170 - 250 Bath is indeed not much, still wonder how people here survive. I will not try it, if only because as a farang I have to earn at least 60,000 B/m to be able to stay in Thailand legally

Why all this is followed by 'the Dem's have only themselves to blame' I do not really understand. The Dem's had a 25% increase over two years in their program. Sounds a bit more reasonable than the Pheu Thai's promise of an increase to 300Baht followed by 'uhm, oh, you see, that was just campaign promise, we didn't really mean it as we assumed you surely would understand'

Edited July 16, 2011 by rubl

[473geo]

One must forget how much the cost of living has increased in Thailand in the last ten years since I have live in Thailand. Yet the minimum wage has lagged far behind the rise in the cost of living. I for one feel that a business that can not or will not pay their employees a decent living wage, should not be in business making their profit off the backs of the working poor!

Those who say that 170 -250 plus baht per day is a living wage, I would like those individuals to try living on that amount of money each month. The Democrats have only themselves to blame for a lost election, when they were in power they had a chance to be the party for all Thai's, not just the rich (they failed in that regard).

Just my opinion!

Cheers

And with the PTP now admitting that their promise is unrealistic and impossible to implement, exactly how are they different from the Dems, apart from the fact that they are prepared to lie and give false hope in order to win power? Are the Dems to blame for not having also lied?

It's all very well, and it's all very easy to say "i think the poor should be paid more". Of course everyone wants that. Problem is it's not as easy as just saying, "ok, lets raise everyone's wages by 50% tomorrow". Kindergarten economics is all that is.

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

[rubl]

One must forget how much the cost of living has increased in Thailand in the last ten years since I have live in Thailand. Yet the minimum wage has lagged far behind the rise in the cost of living. I for one feel that a business that can not or will not pay their employees a decent living wage, should not be in business making their profit off the backs of the working poor!

Those who say that 170 -250 plus baht per day is a living wage, I would like those individuals to try living on that amount of money each month. The Democrats have only themselves to blame for a lost election, when they were in power they had a chance to be the party for all Thai's, not just the rich (they failed in that regard).

Just my opinion!

Cheers

And with the PTP now admitting that their promise is unrealistic and impossible to implement, exactly how are they different from the Dems, apart from the fact that they are prepared to lie and give false hope in order to win power? Are the Dems to blame for not having also lied?

It's all very well, and it's all very easy to say "i think the poor should be paid more". Of course everyone wants that. Problem is it's not as easy as just saying, "ok, lets raise everyone's wages by 50% tomorrow". Kindergarten economics is all that is.

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

The Dem's were in government from December 2008 to May 2011, two and a half year. With the brunt of the Global Financial Crisis and 2009/2010 Songkhran fun by UDD.

May I suggest you change your tack ?

[metisdead]

A post has been removed due to possible violation of copyright and non compliance of fair use. It is generally accepted, but not written into law, that quoting the first two or three sentences of an article and giving a link to the source is considered “fair use” and not a violation of copyright.

Another post has been removed due to messed up quote tags making it difficult to determine who said what.

[473geo]

One must forget how much the cost of living has increased in Thailand in the last ten years since I have live in Thailand. Yet the minimum wage has lagged far behind the rise in the cost of living. I for one feel that a business that can not or will not pay their employees a decent living wage, should not be in business making their profit off the backs of the working poor!

Those who say that 170 -250 plus baht per day is a living wage, I would like those individuals to try living on that amount of money each month. The Democrats have only themselves to blame for a lost election, when they were in power they had a chance to be the party for all Thai's, not just the rich (they failed in that regard).

Just my opinion!

Cheers

And with the PTP now admitting that their promise is unrealistic and impossible to implement, exactly how are they different from the Dems, apart from the fact that they are prepared to lie and give false hope in order to win power? Are the Dems to blame for not having also lied?

It's all very well, and it's all very easy to say "i think the poor should be paid more". Of course everyone wants that. Problem is it's not as easy as just saying, "ok, lets raise everyone's wages by 50% tomorrow". Kindergarten economics is all that is.

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

The Dem's were in government from December 2008 to May 2011, two and a half year. With the brunt of the Global Financial Crisis and 2009/2010 Songkhran fun by UDD.

May I suggest you change your tack ?

Ah Ok, just too busy I guess....

[Ricardo]

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

The "big hike today", which it is now clear may well be reneged-upon/delayed by Thaksin/PTP, was surely dictated by their need to get elected, and not driven by some below-inflation increase under the previous government ?

And once again may I suggest, what really helped to gather-in the votes, was a headline figure of 300B/day across-the-board nationally, rather than the present system of reduced rates depending on where the workers live. A rate of 300B/day immediately means much more, to a poor voter in the countryside, than to a (relatively) better-paid one in Bangkok or Phuket.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Ricardo

[rubl]

And with the PTP now admitting that their promise is unrealistic and impossible to implement, exactly how are they different from the Dems, apart from the fact that they are prepared to lie and give false hope in order to win power? Are the Dems to blame for not having also lied?

It's all very well, and it's all very easy to say "i think the poor should be paid more". Of course everyone wants that. Problem is it's not as easy as just saying, "ok, lets raise everyone's wages by 50% tomorrow". Kindergarten economics is all that is.

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

The Dem's were in government from December 2008 to May 2011, two and a half year. With the brunt of the Global Financial Crisis and 2009/2010 Songkhran fun by UDD.

May I suggest you change your tack ?

Ah Ok, just too busy I guess....

The last increase was January 2011. From 151 - 206 to 159 - 221 Baht/day, or an average of 6.4%. Yearly adjustments are done almost automatically, politics and economical climate may influence how much. You're tenacious I must admit, or would obdurate be a better description

[noahvail]

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

The Dem's were in government from December 2008 to May 2011, two and a half year. With the brunt of the Global Financial Crisis and 2009/2010 Songkhran fun by UDD.

May I suggest you change your tack ?

Ah Ok, just too busy I guess....

The last increase was January 2011. From 151 - 206 to 159 - 221 Baht/day, or an average of 6.4%. Yearly adjustments are done almost automatically, politics and economical climate may influence how much. You're tenacious I must admit, or would obdurate be a better description

A 6.4% increase was above inflation, yes? And workable. We are now faced with the post-election promise of a minimum wage of 1,000 baht/day within 9 years, an average increase of about 15% per year, which on a sustained basis will most certainly increase the rate of inflation.

[kikoman]

A political party knows who's bread they need to butter to win elections, The programs' that Mr. T, enacted were programs aimed at the voting majority of Thailand, (the working poor). These Thai's will vote for those that looks after their welfare, all the Democrats had to do is champion programs aimed at that group of voters. Such as price subsidy on the rice they grow (a fair price, paid for their labor), a hike in the minimum wage or a change on the payback of debts on the loans that Mr T gave them.

Work on eroding the political base of the opposition, they did not do that and it caused them to lose an election.

The working poor, work 7days a week and 12 hours a day, to get a day off they have to pay someone to work for them, they see the economic problems of feeding and housing their families, before they consider anyone else's problems. Mr T saw that and set up a political base that has won all the elections held in Thailand during the last ten years, the Democrat failed to address or act on any of those issues'.

Again only my opinion.

Cheers

Edited July 16, 2011 by kikoman

[whybother]

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

Mid 2008: http://www.thailawforum.com/news/2008/news-June-08.html

End 2009: http://thailand-business-news.com/economics/27852-thailand-raises-minimum-wage

End 2010: http://www.business-in-asia.com/thailand/minimum_wage2011.html

Inflation: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/thailand/inflation-cpi

[473geo]

The last increase was January 2011. From 151 - 206 to 159 - 221 Baht/day, or an average of 6.4%. Yearly adjustments are done almost automatically, politics and economical climate may influence how much. You're tenacious I must admit, or would obdurate be a better description

Planning a small celebration Rubl......just need to keep abreast of the potential exorbitant waitressing costs I may encounter if I delay too long.....

[473geo]

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

Mid 2008: http://www.thailawfo...ws-June-08.html

End 2009: http://thailand-busi...es-minimum-wage

End 2010: http://www.business-...m_wage2011.html

Inflation: http://www.tradingec...d/inflation-cpi

My time is an extremely valuable commodity.......don't suppose you could draw up a succinct appraisal of your links......

[noahvail]

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

Mid 2008: http://www.thailawfo...ws-June-08.html

End 2009: http://thailand-busi...es-minimum-wage

End 2010: http://www.business-...m_wage2011.html

Inflation: http://www.tradingec...d/inflation-cpi

My time is an extremely valuable commodity.......don't suppose you could draw up a succinct appraisal of your links......

-1

[otherstuff1957]

In 2008, the minimum wage in BKK was 195b

in 2009, 203

in 2010, 206

and 2011, 215

So, during the 2 1/2 years that the Democrats were in power, the minimum wager rose by about 10%, or about 4% per year.

The annual inflation rate during this same period, has been.....

You guessed it.... about 4%.

Edited to add, I was using beginning of the year rates, which is why my data differs from the post above!

Edited July 16, 2011 by otherstuff1957

[whybother]

A political party knows who's bread they need to butter to win elections, The programs' that Mr. T, enacted were programs aimed at the voting majority of Thailand, (the working poor). These Thai's will vote for those that looks after their welfare, all the Democrats had to do is champion programs aimed at that group of voters. Such as price subsidy on the rice they grow (a fair price, paid for their labor), a hike in the minimum wage or a change on the payback of debts on the loans that Mr T gave them.

Work on eroding the political base of the opposition, they did not do that and it caused them to lose an election.

The working poor, work 7days a week and 12 hours a day, to get a day off they have to pay someone to work for them, they see the economic problems of feeding and housing their families, before they consider anyone else's problems. Mr T saw that and set up a political base that has won all the elections held in Thailand during the last ten years, the Democrat failed to address or act on any of those issues'.

Again only my opinion.

Cheers

PTP and the Democrats promised similar programs to help the poor. The PTP promised a fair bit more. Now they're going back on their promises. Maybe the poor will make a different decision next time. But probably not.

[473geo]

In 2008, the minimum wage in BKK was 195b

in 2009, 203

in 2010, 206

and 2011, 215

So, during the 2 1/2 years that the Democrats were in power, the minimum wager rose by about 10%, or about 4% per year.

The annual inflation rate during this same period, has been.....

You guessed it.... about 4%.

Thank you otherstuff - appreciated

So I guess the bottom line is........ no attempt to narrow the gap.....

[whybother]

In 2008, the minimum wage in BKK was 195b

in 2009, 203

in 2010, 206

and 2011, 215

So, during the 2 1/2 years that the Democrats were in power, the minimum wager rose by about 10%, or about 4% per year.

The annual inflation rate during this same period, has been.....

You guessed it.... about 4%.

Inflation is running at 4% now, but most of 2010 is was about 3% and in 2009 it was negative.

edit: so on average wage increases were higher than inflation.

Edited July 16, 2011 by whybother

[Tompa]

The majority of small shops like this are not registered businesses so don't pay tax and would not care one bit in following the new 300b rule.

Some noodle shops I go into have 4-5 girls working. 1-2 girls could do the job but still they have 4-5 girls. Mostly friends or relatives from some faraway village. The proprietor, who may or may not be related to them "takes care" of these girls so they don't come to harm. They sleep in the back or upstairs somewhere.

No one works very hard and no one's paid very much, and the proprietors aren't making much either. While i'm all for raising the minimum wage to 300 baht (or even 400), what do you think will be the consequences for these little noodle shops I'm talking about?

Edited July 16, 2011 by Maestro
Fixed quote tags.

[rubl]

How much of a percentage minimum wage rise did the democrats phase in during their ownership?......just interested.....as 15% per year would have negated the requirement for such a big hike today

Mid 2008: http://www.thailawfo...ws-June-08.html

End 2009: http://thailand-busi...es-minimum-wage

End 2010: http://www.business-...m_wage2011.html

Inflation: http://www.tradingec...d/inflation-cpi

My time is an extremely valuable commodity.......don't suppose you could draw up a succinct appraisal of your links......

That's probably why you keep on asking to explain, give examples, etc. etc. All those things you cannot be bothered to search, check, look up yourself, as your time is too valuable, certainly more than a simple 221 Baht a day. May I assume you're still in the USA earning your bread and butter and possibly a bit more. All your posts on this particular topic do suggest that.

[rubl]

The last increase was January 2011. From 151 - 206 to 159 - 221 Baht/day, or an average of 6.4%. Yearly adjustments are done almost automatically, politics and economical climate may influence how much. You're tenacious I must admit, or would obdurate be a better description

Planning a small celebration Rubl......just need to keep abreast of the potential exorbitant waitressing costs I may encounter if I delay too long.....

Your previous posts here on this topic suggest you are probably in the USA at the moment. Gives a possibly succinct meaning to 'abreast' and 'waitresses'. Did you have 'Hooters' in mind ?

[siampolee]

Some noodle shops I go into have 4-5 girls working. 1-2 girls could do the job but still they have 4-5 girls. Mostly friends or relatives from some faraway village. The proprietor, who may or may not be related to them "takes care" of these girls so they don't come to harm. They sleep in the back or upstairs somewhere.

No one works very hard and no one's paid very much, and the proprietors aren't making much either. While i'm all for raising the minimum wage to 300 baht (or even 400), what do you think will be the consequences for these little noodle shops I'm talking about?

Quoting from a quote source unknown, however it hits the nail squarely on the head, I presume someone whoever posted the above post has lived and worked here for a year or two and has family here. Common sense and practicality prevails.

[473geo]

A little wide of the mark Rubl.......but you kind of got my point.......you see I believe my time is actually no more valuable than any other

But perhaps we easily forget there are those who simply do not have the opportunity to have a life outside work.......now if any of you guys think that is not a cause worth serious attention........

Well you are about as wide of the mark as the Rubl speculation about my circumstances.....

[473geo]

Some noodle shops I go into have 4-5 girls working. 1-2 girls could do the job but still they have 4-5 girls. Mostly friends or relatives from some faraway village. The proprietor, who may or may not be related to them "takes care" of these girls so they don't come to harm. They sleep in the back or upstairs somewhere.

No one works very hard and no one's paid very much, and the proprietors aren't making much either. While i'm all for raising the minimum wage to 300 baht (or even 400), what do you think will be the consequences for these little noodle shops I'm talking about?

Quoting from a quote source unknown, however it hits the nail squarely on the head, I presume someone whoever posted the above post has lived and worked here for a year or two and has family here.Common sense and practicality prevails.

Harsh as it may sound, evaluating the future of the Thai economy on noodle shops is probably a sign that somebody has been here far too long

[rubl]

A little wide of the mark Rubl.......but you kind of got my point.......you see I believe my time is actually no more valuable than any other

But perhaps we easily forget there are those who simply do not have the opportunity to have a life outside work.......now if any of you guys think that is not a cause worth serious attention........

Well you are about as wide of the mark as the Rubl speculation about my circumstances.....

Terribly sorry and all that, old thing, but this last reply of yours is a bit of BS. you said "My time is an extremely valuable commodity.." No other poster here has even suggested that. You zigzag along, without real contribution apart from annoyance, IMHO.

Perhaps you too easily play games on the internet without giving thoughts to those who are still working at this very moment and have no choice but to do so. With 'my time is an extremely valuable commodity' you suggested ... ...

Don't worry, I had enough of your BS. You can stay here on this topic and play with yourself.

[rubl]

Some noodle shops I go into have 4-5 girls working. 1-2 girls could do the job but still they have 4-5 girls. Mostly friends or relatives from some faraway village. The proprietor, who may or may not be related to them "takes care" of these girls so they don't come to harm. They sleep in the back or upstairs somewhere.

No one works very hard and no one's paid very much, and the proprietors aren't making much either. While i'm all for raising the minimum wage to 300 baht (or even 400), what do you think will be the consequences for these little noodle shops I'm talking about?

Quoting from a quote source unknown, however it hits the nail squarely on the head, I presume someone whoever posted the above post has lived and worked here for a year or two and has family here.Common sense and practicality prevails.

Harsh as it may sound, evaluating the future of the Thai economy on noodle shops is probably a sign that somebody has been here far too long

Or someone whose name starts with a 473 felt to have nothing better to do

Edited July 16, 2011 by rubl

[siampolee]

473geo

.I consider that the little man or woman employing a small staff is indeed a far better indicator of a countrys economic progress and economic stability as opposed some corrupt deviuous entity controlled by the likes of Thaksin in Thailand or Murdoch in the West intent on feathering their own nests.

My time is charged out at 5000 baht an hour , cheap maybe but for a Thai it's astronomical. I'm paid for what I know and the results I get plus the time I spent learning about what is what regarding ny sphere of operations.

You are the same I presume?

Edited July 16, 2011 by siampolee