Thai Food Origins

[silverbackman]

I heard that Thailand has a strong influence from both China and India, but in general Thai food is very close to Indian food. Especially the curry. I myself have not tried Thai food, but I'm curious how similar is Thai food to food of India (such as curry)? And by curry I mean the meat currys such as chicken, beef, pork, or fish curry. Is it as spicy? Does it taste as good?

And do Thai women generally grow up knowing how to make their own traditional food or is it like the West where women don't know how to cook their traditional food anymore?

[sbk]

Where are you from that you have never tried Thai food? I thought it was universally known to be spicy.

As for cooking, it depends on the mom, I guess. I learned to cook alot of the traditional dishes from my husband who said his mom wasn't the greatest cook.

[silverbackman]

So is the food of Thailand a mixture of Chinese and Indian food? I heard it was closer to Indian food (at least the curry).

[chownah]

I think people need to remember that Thailand has at least three different overall styles of food and maybe four. Central Thai, Northern Thai, Issan, and perhaps Southern Thai although I"ve never been south so I don't know. Of course rice is common to all of them...but even rice has a regional history....sticky rice is the traditional northern rice for example and steamed rice is the traditional central rice. I live in the north and traditional northern food is heavily influence by what grows here naturally and there is an appreciation of bitter qualities that I've experienced nowhere else...but I've never eaten traditional Indian or Chinese (as if there was one kind of Chinese food that should be used to typify its diverse cultural heritage) food so perhaps they have similar bitter foods. I would say that the traditional northern food is not like a westerner's conception of typical Indian or Chinese food.

Edited October 23, 2005 by chownah

[sbk]

Ditto southern. Influenced by Indian food, maybe, but still ultimately its own cuisine.

Chownah, speaking of bitter, what do you think of Sataw? Yuck! I say. They like the bitter leaves down here too, just can't wrap my taste buds around that stuff.

[chownah]

Ditto southern. Influenced by Indian food, maybe, but still ultimately its own cuisine.

Chownah, speaking of bitter, what do you think of Sataw? Yuck! I say. They like the bitter leaves down here too, just can't wrap my taste buds around that stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My wife likes sataw....I'll usually eat a couple or three...Its one of those things that when I eat it I can tell that someone could really develop a liking for it but its not that interesting for me. I find that my taste for the bitter dishes is highly variable...sometimes I like them and sometimes I don't....an example of a bitter dish would be hoi kom...which is water snails cooked in a bitter herb sauce. The term 'kom' in the name means bitter. In the north we call them hoi joob where the 'joob' term means kiss because you eat them by putting the opening to your mouth and seal your lips around the opening and make a strong sucking/kiss action on the open end to get the meat out. When I'm in the mood I can go through a big pile of those guys but sometimes it just doesn't work. A traditional northern dish that is bitter is geng om. It is made either from beef or water buffalo, its usually not as bitter as hoi joop...its a fairly famous northern dish and would be a good introduction to bitter northern Thai food in my opinion.

[sabaijai]

Two common curries were influenced by Indian curry recipes: kaeng matsaman and kaeng karee. The first uses certain spices common in Indian cuisine not usually found in Thai food, e.g., clove and cinnamon (not all matsaman has these spices but the classic Thai matsaman does). The second uses Indian curry powder along with other spices the Thais might normally use in 'Thai' cuisine.

The other Thai curries, i.e., kaeng phet, kaeng phanaeng and kaeng khiaw-waan are more or less native to Thailand, save for the chillies (capsicum), which were brought to South and SE Asia by the Portuguese in the 17th century. The original Thai curries, before the arrival of the capsicum, used black pepper for 'hotness', pounded with galangal, lemongrass, garlic, onions and fish or shrimp paste.

To my palate, Thai curries (even the ones 'borrowed' from India) taste very different from Indian curries, though kaeng karee definitely comes closest to Indian curries. In fact the word karee comes from the Tamil word kari, from which the English word 'curry' derives. Kari simply means 'stew made with a blend of spices' I believe, but in English and modern Indian languages has come to mean a blend of spices used for curry or, of course, the curry itself.

One big difference is that, aside from kaeng karee, Thai curries are made mostly from fresh ingredients while Indian curries are made mostly from dried or preserved ingredients.

Another is that many Indian curries make use of dairy products, especially ghee (clarified butter) and yoghurt. In Thai curries, the use of any milk product would be anathema.

There exists another theory that the orgin of the word 'curry' is in fact English but it's a minority view:

curry - english?

curry - tamil?

[silverbackman]

But there isn't much difference in comparison to the different areas in India, right? For example Tamil Curry maybe quite a bit Rajastani curry or Punjabi curry in come ways but fundementally both regions currys can taste the same. Is that how it is or are Indian and Thai curries fundementally very different classes of curry?

That wikipedia article pains a picture that the curries of each state of India are as different to each other as they are to Thai curries.

[Dara]

I think people need to remember that Thailand has at least three different overall styles of food and maybe four. Central Thai, Northern Thai, Issan, and perhaps Southern Thai although I"ve never been south so I don't know. Of course rice is common to all of them...but even rice has a regional history....sticky rice is the traditional northern rice for example and steamed rice is the traditional central rice.  I live in the north and traditional northern food is heavily influence by what grows here naturally and there is an appreciation of bitter qualities that I've experienced nowhere else...but I've never eaten traditional Indian or Chinese (as if there was one kind of Chinese food that should be used to typify its diverse cultural heritage) food so perhaps they have similar bitter foods. I would say that the traditional northern food is not like  a westerner's conception of typical Indian or Chinese food.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

K'Chownah is right about the difference in the styles of food in Thailand. The Thai food scene seems to be a true melting pot - a little influence from everywhere, together with its own unique flovors.

The unique Thai flavors besides the regional cuisines mentioned here are also the "Yum"(ยำ), "Tom Yum"(ต้มยำ), "Pla" (พล่า) which are based on the misxture of lemon grass, caffir lime, lime juice, chili peppers, and sometime with galanga, sometimes with cilantro roots or leaves. Of course, the variety of "Nam Prik"(น้ำพริก) are also uniquely Thai.

Hoards other foods with all kinds of influnce - Indian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, Portugese, Western, and likely many more. IMHO, this is why Thai food is so palatable to a wide range of people - you can always get some Thai food to suit your taste.

Re: Bitter (different from "tart") foods - it is said that bitter foods are better appreciated by older people - apparently, as you get older, the taste buds change and one day, for most of us, a little bitterness tastes good. You will sometimes see older Thai folks enjoying "Kaeng Mara"(แกงมะระ) - a soup that most young people detest.....

[orchidexpert]

Thai food is so different from Indian or chinese food.

Because of ingredints such as spicy, vegetables, meat and cooking techniques.

For example: The well-known Thai food "Tom yum krung"

You need real coconut milk, river prawn, vegtables and thai spicy.If u use raw materials from other side like from china or india. The taste is so different.

And some cooking techniques from an old thai culture can make thai food very deliciuos. Now Thai food is 3rd popular food of the world.(1st is Italian, 2nd is Franch)

In Thailand, in an old traditional we spend too much time for cooking as we call "art on table"

[sbk]

Thai food is so different from Indian or chinese food.

Because of ingredints such as spicy, vegetables, meat and cooking techniques.

For example: The well-known Thai food "Tom yum krung"

You need real coconut milk, river prawn, vegtables  and thai spicy.If u use raw materials from other side like from china or india. The taste is so different.

And some cooking techniques from an old thai culture can make thai food very deliciuos. Now Thai food is 3rd  popular food of the world.(1st is Italian, 2nd is Franch)

In Thailand, in an old traditional we spend too much time for cooking as we call "art on table"

In all my years in Thailand I have never seen Tom Yum Kung made with coconut milk. I only know of two kinds, the clear kind and the red kind. I prefer the clear kind, it is more citrusy. But both are definitely made with water.

[jingjingna]

Yes Sbk, there are two kinds but the red kind definately has coconut milk in it. I prefer the clear Tom yum Goong.

[sbk]

Yes Sbk, there are two kinds but the red kind definately has coconut milk in it. I prefer the clear Tom yum Goong.

According to my cook that is Bangkok style. In the south the clear kind is more popular and the red kind is made with a paste, but no coconut milk.

I guess I've never had it because in Bangkok I rarely eat Thai food, I get plenty of that here and Bangkok is my "farang food" heaven

[jingjingna]

Out of the two most popular curries that Sabai Jai has mentioned, I would say that Kaeng Karee (yellow curry) has a distinct Chinese taste whereas the Masaaan an Indian taste. Love them both!

[chonabot]

Yes Sbk, there are two kinds but the red kind definately has coconut milk in it. I prefer the clear Tom yum Goong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I concur with sbk , but Tom Kha Kung has Coco milk in it.

I suppose you can alter anything to taste how you want , but my wife who has cooked most styles of Thai-fusion would never consider adding milk to a hot and sour dish. To the OP , recommend that you learn some more about Thai food , it can take years , before you compare it with your knowledge of Indian foods.

[sbk]

Just can't understand where the OP comes from that he/she has never tried Thai food. I thought you could get it in major cities nearly everywhere!

[sabaijai]

Tom yam / ต้มยำ comes in two basic styles, 'clear' (sai / ใส ) and 'creamy' (khon / ข้น). Tom yam sai / ต้มยำใส does not use coconut milk while tom yam khon / ต้มยำข้น does.

Regionally it's the Thais in central and southern Thailand who will eat tom yam khon (and dishes with coconut milk in general), while the rest of the country prefers tom yam sai. Of course not everyone in one region prepares it in exactly the same way and there are plenty of central and southern Thais who prefer naam sai (but fewer northerners and northeasterners who like naam khon)

Most restaurants, wherever you go in Thailand, offer both styles. In fact when Thais order tom yam in a restaurant, the wait person will usually ask sai reu khon, clear or creamy? If a foreigner orders tom yam they might not ask, worried the foreigner won't understand the question.

The amount of coconut milk added is a only a couple of spoonfuls, so you may have eaten it many times and not noticed the coconut

Tom yam is one of the oldest documented dishes in Thailand and the addition of coconut milk seems to be a later development. My Thai gourmet friends say tom yam sai is the 'real' tom yam (they claim coconut milk muddies the sharp flavours) but I have noticed that more Thais in general are ordering the khon version than used to, My impression is that the cream camp may even outnumber the clear aficionados - older generation preferring clear, younger thais creamy. That's a generalisation based on my own observations travelling around Thailand, I don't have any figures to back it up.

Splashes of red on the surface of the soup can be a giveaway that coconut milk has been added, because the chilli in the tom yam chilli paste will adhere to the coconut fat floating on top. Some recipes for tom yam don't use tom yam chilli paste, though, and instead all the ingredients are fresh. In that case coconut milk is almost never added anyway. 'Original' tom yam doesn't/didn't use chilli paste either.

The only place I would order tom yam with shrimp or other seafood is in Bangkok or at the seaside. The prawns upcountry usually aren't very fresh and I find it's a better bet, taste-wise, to order tom yam plaa chawn (with snakehead fish, harvested in rivers and canals throughout Thailand) or tom yam kai (with chicken). My Thai friends in Chiang Mai almost never oreder tom yam with shrimp, rather with freshwater fish or chicken. (If a new farang arrival is at table, they might order TYK because farangs are often familiar with the name already.)

Tom khaa kai is another dish altogether and of course it always contains coconut milk - lots of it.

[sbk]

Tom yam /  ต้มยำ comes in two basic styles, 'clear' (sai / ใส ) and 'creamy' (khon / ข้น). Tom yam sai / ต้มยำใส does not use coconut milk while tom yam khon / ต้มยำข้น does.

Regionally it's the Thais in central and southern Thailand who will eat tom yam khon (and dishes with coconut milk in general), while the rest of the country prefers tom yam sai. Of course not everyone in one region prepares it in exactly the same way and there are plenty of central and southern Thais who prefer naam sai (but fewer northerners and northeasterners who like naam khon)

Most restaurants, wherever you go in Thailand, offer both styles. In fact when Thais order tom yam in a restaurant, the wait person will usually ask sai reu khon, clear or creamy? If a foreigner orders tom yam they might not ask, worried the foreigner won't understand the question.

The amount of coconut milk added is a only a couple of spoonfuls, so you may have eaten it many times and not noticed the coconut

Tom yam is one of the oldest documented dishes in Thailand and the addition of coconut milk seems to be a later development. My Thai gourmet friends say tom yam sai is the 'real' tom yam (they claim coconut milk muddies the sharp flavours) but I have noticed that more Thais in general are ordering the khon version than used to, My impression is that the cream camp may even outnumber the clear aficionados - older generation preferring clear, younger thais creamy. That's a generalisation based on my own observations travelling around Thailand, I don't have any figures to back it up.

Splashes of red on the surface of the soup can be a giveaway that coconut milk has been added, because the chilli in the tom yam chilli paste will adhere to the coconut fat floating on top. Some recipes for tom yam don't use tom yam chilli paste, though, and instead all the ingredients are fresh. In that case coconut milk is almost never added anyway. 'Original' tom yam doesn't/didn't use chilli paste either.

The only place I would order tom yam with shrimp or other seafood is in Bangkok or at the seaside. The prawns upcountry usually aren't very fresh and I find it's a better bet, taste-wise, to order tom yam plaa chawn (with snakehead fish, harvested in rivers and canals  throughout Thailand) or tom yam kai (with chicken). My Thai friends in Chiang Mai almost never oreder tom yam with shrimp, rather with freshwater fish or chicken. (If a new farang arrival is at table, they might order TYK because farangs are often familiar with the name already.)

Tom khaa kai is another dish altogether and of course it always contains coconut milk - lots of it.

OK, quizzed my two girls, one a local islander, one from Surat Thani mainland. Islander says: here the commonly made Tom Yum is the clear one. Few people make the red one and noone adds even the tiniest bit of coconut milk. This girl has been cooking for years, her mother was a cook as well. Mainlander says: people there eat the red one but noone adds even a spoonful of coconut milk.

Both say: they believe it to be a Bangkok dish with coconut milk.

So, either Surat Thani is unique in the South or the coconut milk idea is from either further south or further north.

[jingjingna]

..See, I told you, the red style has got coconut milk in it!

[sbk]

Didn't say I didn't believe you just they don't do it here. It certainly is not anything made in Surat Thani, so if it southern as Sabaijai suggests then it is southern excluding Surat Thani.

[jingjingna]

Or perhaps it differs region to region? Here in Chonburi they always present it with coconut milk added.

[sbk]

True, I have heard it is a central dish from everyone I know here and since Chonburi is clearly central that makes sense. Just surprising Sabaijai so clearly states it's Southern when noone here makes it.

But, back to topic at hand . I have read that the chilies in Thai food were brought over from South America ; that must have been quite a revolutionary change to SE Asian food, since so much of it is chili based.

[sabaijai]

OK, quizzed my two girls, one a local islander, one from Surat Thani mainland. Islander says: here the commonly made Tom Yum is the clear one. Few people make the red one and noone adds even the tiniest bit of coconut milk. This girl has been cooking for years, her mother was a cook as well. Mainlander says: people there eat the red one but noone adds even a spoonful of coconut milk.

Both say: they believe it to be a Bangkok dish with coconut milk.

I'd suggest a sample of two is probably not going to settle the question either way for either the south in general or for Surat Thani Province. There is also the question of what their families preferred. Also you mentioned one is an islander. On Ko Samui and Ko Pha-Ngan it would be another story as the main cuisine on these islands was Hainanese-influenced, and Chinese Thai cooks tend not to use coconut milk in tom yam.

Aside from my own observations travelling in the south and other regions in Thailand, I'm currently translating an academically oriented book on Thai food history written by two Thai ajahns, and this topic came up in the text. The general rule of thumb, according to the food history ajahns, is that tom yam khon is more common in central and southern Thailand than in northern or northeastern Thailand. My own observations, ordering in restaurants and watching Thais order in restaurants, suggests the same.

Comparing Bangkok and the south, it may very well be that coco milk is more commonly added to Bangkok tom yam than to southern tom yam, since that's the general trend (adding coconut milk) all over Thailand, and Bangkok usually leads the way. But in general more coconut milk is used in southern cooking then in any other Thai regional cuisine.

I prefer the clear kind myself.

[sabaijai]

But, back to topic at hand  . I have read that the chilies in Thai food were brought over from South America ; that must have been quite a revolutionary change to SE Asian food, since so much of it is chili based

Definitely. It was the Portuguese who introduced chillies to both South and SE Asia. Prior to the 17th C the Thais 'heated' their curries with black pepper.

And further back to the original topic. I've sampled most of the major curry genres in India and none of them seem at all similar to Thai curries other than sharing a few ingredients, save for matsaman and kaeng karee. Even these are have their own Thai identity based on differences in cooking techniques, the order that the ingredients are added, length of cook time, etc.

[solo siam]

I'd say that Thai Curries are a cross between Chinese and Indian styles of cooking, Indian curries cook for a long time, whilst most chinese stir fry food in a matter of minutes.

They have a lot of similar ingredients; Cardamom, Turmeric, Ginger, Garlic, Coriander, pepper, tamarind etc... but a very different taste due to the different ways that those ingredients are used. Indian curries are generally very warming whilst Thai curries tend to be hot/sharp/sweet/sour.

[Plus+]

When my girls order Tom Yam they usually order the coconut milk one. When they cook it at home they make it "clear", or, for health reasons, add Nestle's "Carnation" condensed milk instead (it has less fat).

Geng Karee (sp) comes in two kinds, too - the Chinese one is cooked faster, and the Indian one is cooked longer so that fat separates from the coconut milk. They defenitely look different even if the taste is close. As for Indians - Northern Indians don't even use coconut milk in the first place. The spices are identical, but it's true - Thais use fresh ingredients while Indians use mostly dry spices. Also Thais prepare curry pastes (fresh spices cooked with oil and water) and sell them everywhere while Indians prepare masalas - mixtures of dry spices. Lots of Indian spices are unobtainable in Thailand. I even forgot their names - it's been so long. Also try finding semolina. Pure unobtanium. And beans, too - Thais don't make soups (dhals) out of them - they make deserts! With coconut milk, whereas in India dhal is as staple food as rice. And bread - Thais don't have any bread at all. I don't know why. Maybe they have enough noodles already (Indians don't have noodles at all).

Chillies are native to South America, not to Asia, so both Indians and Thais used black pepper in the old days. In Thailand now it's usually "white" pepper, not dried in the sun yet, and it's appropriately called "prik Thai".

Old Indian temples still use their native ingredients to prepare food for their deities - no tomatoes, no eggplants, no corn or other non-native beans, no chillies etc. I haven't heard of anything like that in Thailand.

Whatever the similarities are, the end result is that very few Thais can stand, let alone appreciate, Indian food. They'd go with a "slit eye" cuisine anytime instead - Chinese, Japanese, Lao etc. They can eat tons of it and adapt their tastes. Not to Indian food. Might be not politically correct, but it's true - very few Thais patronise Indian restaurants.

Also, I think, it's worth mentioning that some fifty years ago then current ruler/dictator tried to instill Thainess into Siamese and invented a few "Thai" dishes to fight against Chinese food. "Phad Thai" is what they call it now and the latest big name proponent was previous Bangkok governor Samak Sundaravej who had his own cooking show on TV, and anywhere he went people cooked "Phad Thai" for him so that he could pass his judgment.

As an end user - Thai food is always Thai. You can try to trace the roots of any particular dish but it will be like "kimono" from "My fat Greek wedding". There's unmistakable Thainess to whatever they cook here.

[meadish_sweetball]

When my girls order Tom Yam they usually order the coconut milk one. When they cook it at home they make it "clear", or, for health reasons, add Nestle's "Carnation" condensed milk instead (it has less fat).

Yuck.

Either clear or with coconut milk, but NEVER condensed or regular milk for me. I was once served green curry made on regular milk, it tasted awful.

As for the South and coconut milk in Tom Yam: my friend's family is from Pattani, and his grandma always makes her Tom Yam with coconut milk. Far away from Surat though.

[sbk]

Quite Far!

I'd be interested in the influence of the Srivijaya Empire on food in the South. I know that the Middle and Lower South was a part of the empire and Chaiya was actually a fairly main town.

[jayenram]

Cardamom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never seen cardomom in Thailand. Even in Malaysia I've only seen the green (white) variety.

However, I made this curry last night:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...pic=25416&st=60

And I thought it was wonderful. FG said it's ok, but there's something in there that I don't like. I couldn't get to the bottom of what it was. Anybody got any ideas?

[joe beets]

Cardamom

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never seen cardomom in Thailand. Even in Malaysia I've only seen the green (white) variety.

Today, cardamom is cultivated in India, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Guatemala, Mexico, Thailand and Central America.

http://www.avalon.net/~slainte/cardamom.html

I'm always pulling cardamom pods out of the curries and masamans I get from the charming muslim ladies on the lower level at Seri Center - aroy maak! They're here - ask around. (Okay, maybe not so easy to find in Isaan.)

I have to add, last week I got a batch from them that was way undersalted; I started adding salt, and my GF stopped me and poured me out some nam pla. Mind you she can't stand any of that kaek food, but damned if she wasn't spot on this time. I suppose that's one major difference between Thai gaeng gari and its Indian equivalent.

Cheers - enjoying this thread.

jb