Monks Teach Maleness To Thai 'Ladyboys'

[BlueSmurf]

So why do you think (to everyone) that there seems to be a unusual amount of trans gender people in Thailand? Ok I know all some will say not enough! But...have a guess even or give it some thought to why..

here are the reasons that I have been told.

1.Lean bhap..thats copy to be in the gang.

2. Thailand is more open in general towards being gay.

3. Parents would rather see their daughter with another girl as a teenager than with a boy who may get here pregnant.

4. Poisons in the air and food.

5.Born that way.

6. Too much soy milk and tophu in the diet as a teenager which has too many female hormones in..The N.H.S. in the UK warns not to give this to teenage boys!

7.Being taught by elders and piers thats its acceptable to be Bi sexual..

I would probely agree across the board with all this reasons which add up to the reason we seem and do see more cross gender people in Thailand.

So any other reason you all can think of?

I don't have the answer and disagree with a number of the reasons you stated as being possible reasons but to add to the list of possibilities ...

8: for economic reasons (to work in the sex trade)

9: It is much easier for an Asian man to pass as a women than most other races

10: It is a common, easy to have and inexpensive surgery here compared to elsewhere (but this may be a chicken before the egg thinking)

8..Yes I would agree

9.No not a reason in itself and 10. Same as 9 which comes first... But Hey I had the head start !

[DumFarang]

Not being to religious myself (I am a reborn again Pagan) I feel that religion is a way to put forth a set of moral ides. these are ideas that society could base its self on. That is not to say it happens all the time.

It would be self defeating if it was based on what the culture is like today.

The title was very misleading. It should have said preach rather than teach.

By the way this is 2011 we now have a spell check on are computers.

Pot, kettle

[Nisa]

So why do you think (to everyone) that there seems to be a unusual amount of trans gender people in Thailand? Ok I know all some will say not enough! But...have a guess even or give it some thought to why..

here are the reasons that I have been told.

1.Lean bhap..thats copy to be in the gang.

2. Thailand is more open in general towards being gay.

3. Parents would rather see their daughter with another girl as a teenager than with a boy who may get here pregnant.

4. Poisons in the air and food.

5.Born that way.

6. Too much soy milk and tophu in the diet as a teenager which has too many female hormones in..The N.H.S. in the UK warns not to give this to teenage boys!

7.Being taught by elders and piers thats its acceptable to be Bi sexual..

I would probely agree across the board with all this reasons which add up to the reason we seem and do see more cross gender people in Thailand.

So any other reason you all can think of?

I don't have the answer and disagree with a number of the reasons you stated as being possible reasons but to add to the list of possibilities ...

8: for economic reasons (to work in the sex trade)

9: It is much easier for an Asian man to pass as a women than most other races

10: It is a common, easy to have and inexpensive surgery here compared to elsewhere (but this may be a chicken before the egg thinking)

8..Yes I would agree

9.No not a reason in itself and 10. Same as 9 which comes first... But Hey I had the head start !

With 9 I was thinking there may be just as many Americans (as an example) who would like to change gender, cross dress or present themselves as a women in various ways but the fact that they are usually much larger, have much more body hair and their bodys & faces in general or just more masculine makes this very difficult.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Two points:

1. I though Buddhism taught acceptance.

2. Over many years I've heard many stories about monks molesting young temple boys. A bit inconsistent.

Hmmm....which other religion has that problem?

Which one doesn't?

[DumFarang]

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Well...I feel terrible about that.

[BlueSmurf]

Quoting Nisa's reply to my original post..With No.9 I was thinking there may be just as many Americans (as an example) who would like to change gender, cross dress or present themselves as a women in various ways but the fact that they are usually much larger, have much more body hair and their bodys & faces in general or just more masculine makes this very difficult.

Davidwright

I don't think so unless we would have all the other reasons i suggested .But if you are right they do seem to have a problem over there! lol..Not a pretty sight I have to say..but then thats facism...Have to agree I would rather have a beer with a Katoey than a tall hairy american...Opps just if I had to make the choice....

Edited July 16, 2011 by davidwright

[DumFarang]

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Does a Ladyboy technically have to have a penis? I mean if they have completed the transition from male to female (post-op) are they still a ladyboy or would they be considered transsexual?

Part of the problem discussing issues like this is defining the terms. Thai's themselves simply refer to all outwardly gay men as ladyboys while I think most of us believe it is either shemales or gay men who put themselves out there as being women .. at least in appearance.

I could be wrong but I believe ladyboy is a Thai reference and if this is true then it would make sense to use the local definition and not the more broader shemale definition. Even the OP itself is making its own definition by saying that Ladyboy is synonymous with transsexuals when in fact this would mean they would have had to undergone some sort of surgery.

[DumFarang]

Two points:

1. I though Buddhism taught acceptance.

2. Over many years I've heard many stories about monks molesting young temple boys. A bit inconsistent.

Hmmm....which other religion has that problem?

Which one doesn't?

Touche.

[ThaiStudMuffin]

I think they better focus on the corruption here in Thailand than the Lady-boys. Especially the jet ski scammers that are shafting tourists out of their money and fun. Even the police are in on it. Let the lady-boys do as they want. They mean no harm. But hang the scammers and corrupt police by the BALLS!!!!

[hungryhippo]

You are very much wrong. Buddhism is very tolarant of all other religons. Even with in the world of Buddhism there are places where it is tolerated. Just because some try to change the beliefs of the lady boys it does not mean they are intolerant.

Except when it comes to ladyboys as shown, women who wish to be monks, not requiring whoever comes prime minister of Thailand be non-Buddhist (guess you forgot about that already), anything related to sex, etc. This list goes on and on.

No, Buddhism is like every other religion. Looks amazing on paper, but everyone who follows it are intolerant, sexist bigots.

[ginjag]

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket. 5555555555555 they are this if they are (cut) or they that if they carry a hand bag, or walk that way, or speak that way, or when they get angry they slap your knees, if they wear pink they are one of those.:lol::cheesy:

Edited July 16, 2011 by ginjag

[Nisa]

Quoting Nisa's reply to my original post..

With No.9 I was thinking there may be just as many Americans (as an example) who would like to change gender, cross dress or present themselves as a women in various ways but the fact that they are usually much larger, have much more body hair and their bodys & faces in general or just more masculine makes this very difficult.

Davidwright

I don't think so unless we would have all the other reasons i suggested .But if you are right they do seem to have a problem over there! lol..Not a pretty sight I have to say..but then thats facism...Have to agree I would rather have a beer with a Katoey than a tall hairy american...Opps just if I had to make the choice....

It could also be a part of evolution in terms of controlling population by simply having more men (and women) attracted to the same sex. Asians "appear" to be more evolved physically 'in my opinion" then much of the rest of the world. If true then we would expect to see this happening across all Asia but it is not. This simply could be because of it being more socially acceptable.

I've heard Iran actually leads the world with the number of transvestites but as I also understand the government encourages gays to sex change operations and actually help pay for them. And I am not even sure Thailand has all that many actual transsexuals. Aren't most ladyboy's we that we see still packing a penis and simply taking pills or getting implants? Who knows, maybe those who go all the way with the surgery can fool us all.

[Nisa]

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket.

You need to have "common" definitions when speaking about such things. Your definition of gay is different than that of the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays. You have also now lumped many lady boys into simply being gay since if the have male genitalia they are clearly male by definition across the globe. So, it can cause a lot of confusion in who and what we are talking about using your definition of gay. I guess we could call the Ladyboy's with a penis "Gay Ladyboys" .

[theanimaster]

If anyone knows of any express (NOT implied) pronouncements from Buddha, Jesus or any other leading historical religious figure about the rights or wrongs of gaydom, let him speak.

....or forever hold her 'piece'!

:grin:

[BlueSmurf]

Quoting Nisa's reply to my original post..

With No.9 I was thinking there may be just as many Americans (as an example) who would like to change gender, cross dress or present themselves as a women in various ways but the fact that they are usually much larger, have much more body hair and their bodys & faces in general or just more masculine makes this very difficult.

Davidwright

I don't think so unless we would have all the other reasons i suggested .But if you are right they do seem to have a problem over there! lol..Not a pretty sight I have to say..but then thats facism...Have to agree I would rather have a beer with a Katoey than a tall hairy american...Opps just if I had to make the choice....

Thought provoking stuff with all the evolution bit...But I think you are right about its only a small percentage who have the chop and indeed the Thai government have been trying to stop males under the age of I think 25 from having it done...there was a program on Thai TV last year about it...which goes back to my first point No 1. lean Bhap! Copying others to be one of them or be in a group..even being a fashion thingTthat could be another reason FASHION! hey?

It could also be a part of evolution in terms of controlling population by simply having more men (and women) attracted to the same sex. Asians "appear" to be more evolved physically 'in my opinion" then much of the rest of the world. If true then we would expect to see this happening across all Asia but it is not. This simply could be because of it being more socially acceptable.

I've heard Iran actually leads the world with the number of transvestites but as I also understand the government encourages gays to sex change operations and actually help pay for them. And I am not even sure Thailand has all that many actual transsexuals. Aren't most ladyboy's we that we see still packing a penis and simply taking pills or getting implants? Who knows, maybe those who go all the way with the surgery can fool us all.

Sorry Nisa I got this a little mixed up....seems to run with the post though? Edited July 16, 2011 by davidwright

[DumFarang]

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket.

You need to have "common" definitions when speaking about such things. Your definition of gay is different than that of the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays. You have also now lumped many lady boys into simply being gay since if the have male genitalia they are clearly male by definition across the globe. So, it can cause a lot of confusion in who and what we are talking about using your definition of gay. I guess we could call the Ladyboy's with a penis "Gay Ladyboys" .

Suffice to say the murky point has gotten cloudier.

[BlueSmurf]

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket.

You need to have "common" definitions when speaking about such things. Your definition of gay is different than that of the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays. You have also now lumped many lady boys into simply being gay since if the have male genitalia they are clearly male by definition across the globe. So, it can cause a lot of confusion in who and what we are talking about using your definition of gay. I guess we could call the Ladyboy's with a penis "Gay Ladyboys" .

I had a Gay yes Gay friend come over for a 2 week holiday last year..He was a litle confused with it all here..His quote was " I like my men to be men" when I asked him if he liked Ladyboys! So there is confusion in all groupsif you have to group people.My opinion for whats its worth is "Live and let Live"! When you are old enough to decide then its up to you what so called gender you want to be...

[kalbo123]

What I have noticed, here in Chiang mai, (don't know about other places in Thailand) a lot of ladyboys are gone, where you saw before a group of girlfriends always joined with at least 1 ladyboy they seem to be be joined by at least 1 tomboy nowadays.....

Very strange.. don't know where the ladyboys went.. and I don't know where all the tomboys come from all of a sudden...

Edited July 16, 2011 by kalbo123

[ginjag]

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket.

You need to have "common" definitions when speaking about such things. Your definition of gay is different than that of the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays. You have also now lumped many lady boys into simply being gay since if the have male genitalia they are clearly male by definition across the globe. So, it can cause a lot of confusion in who and what we are talking about using your definition of gay. I guess we could call the Ladyboy's with a penis "Gay Ladyboys" .

I had a Gay yes Gay friend come over for a 2 week holiday last year..He was a litle confused with it all here..His quote was " I like my men to be men" when I asked him if he liked Ladyboys! So there is confusion in all groupsif you have to group people.My opinion for whats its worth is "Live and let Live"! When you are old enough to decide then its up to you what so called gender you want to be...

You are near enough the mark. The gay male I would think could be dominant or passive, as in the gay female (lesbian). To many people I suppose if you are effeminate you could be taken to be passive(not always) and the muscled man to be masculine(not always) generally though. Nisa you got me confused by saying gay and lesbian are not the same ??????.............Lesbians are gay ladies. if not what are they ????

[diehard60]

My God, it is like going back a couple of hundred years in time. Imagine having a sociaty like Thailand, free and approving of most gays, lesbians and ladyboys and such stuff. And than within the very same sociaty having these Buddist monks living their lifes like it was the year of 1036 AD or something. No it is really time to fresh up the monks and the tempels in Thailand in order to make them modern and more in terms with today!

Glegolo

What do you consider "make them modern andmore in terms of today"? Like the gay priests in the catholic religion??????? Oh you are good. hahahahahahahaah

[DumFarang]

What I have noticed, here in Chiang mai, (don't know about other places in Thailand) a lot of ladyboys are gone, where you saw before a group of girlfriends always joined with at least 1 ladyboy they seem to be be joined by at least 1 tomboy nowadays.....

Very strange.. don't know where the ladyboys went.. and I don't know where all the tomboys come from all of a sudden...

The ladyboy population has exploded here where I am in the south. Ladyboy migration?

[Nisa]

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket.

You need to have "common" definitions when speaking about such things. Your definition of gay is different than that of the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays. You have also now lumped many lady boys into simply being gay since if the have male genitalia they are clearly male by definition across the globe. So, it can cause a lot of confusion in who and what we are talking about using your definition of gay. I guess we could call the Ladyboy's with a penis "Gay Ladyboys" .

I had a Gay yes Gay friend come over for a 2 week holiday last year..He was a litle confused with it all here..His quote was " I like my men to be men" when I asked him if he liked Ladyboys! So there is confusion in all groupsif you have to group people.My opinion for whats its worth is "Live and let Live"! When you are old enough to decide then its up to you what so called gender you want to be...

Excluding those who get into it for the sex trade .. I'd have to assume Ladyboys themselves are not attracted to gay men. It would seem they want a man who likes women or on the other end of the stick (no pun intended) they simply don't want to be gay. I also think that if a gay person was attracted to a Ladyboy, they may not be all that gay as they think. It would seem more logical that curious hetrosexual men or bisexual men would be the ones most interested in a Ladyboy .. ones with a penis anyway.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Nisa

[endure]

OMG, you think the difference between gay men and ladyboys is a technicality? That's simply ignorance.

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket.

You need to have "common" definitions when speaking about such things. Your definition of gay is different than that of the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays. You have also now lumped many lady boys into simply being gay since if the have male genitalia they are clearly male by definition across the globe. So, it can cause a lot of confusion in who and what we are talking about using your definition of gay. I guess we could call the Ladyboy's with a penis "Gay Ladyboys" .

I had a Gay yes Gay friend come over for a 2 week holiday last year..He was a litle confused with it all here..His quote was " I like my men to be men"

Bingo!

[Nisa]

What I have noticed, here in Chiang mai, (don't know about other places in Thailand) a lot of ladyboys are gone, where you saw before a group of girlfriends always joined with at least 1 ladyboy they seem to be be joined by at least 1 tomboy nowadays.....

Very strange.. don't know where the ladyboys went.. and I don't know where all the tomboys come from all of a sudden...

The ladyboy population has exploded here where I am in the south. Ladyboy migration?

Do either of you hear much about Ladyboy suicides? I remember years ago I read an article about the very high rate of suicides by ladyboys. It seem to infer that many worked in the cities and then when they got older they returned home only to become very depressed and kill themselves. I've always wondered how much truth was in the story but always think about it when i see Ladyboys and the very very few older ones I see.

[Nisa]

Nisa you got me confused by saying gay and lesbian are not the same ??????.............Lesbians are gay ladies. if not what are they ????

I didn't say gay and lesbian were not the same. What I said was. "... the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays "

I like you define both male and females attracted to the same sex as being gay.

Edit: maybe it is different up North, but in Bangkok I learned long ago not to refer to a women as gay because it confused Thais and I received a response on more than one occasion asking how a women can be gay.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Nisa

[DumFarang]

Hey Jingthing, you really have to laugh at some of the posters comments on gay issues, it's nearly impossible to answer some posts. If some posters do not understand why don't they ask?? rather than the crap that they believe in. The gay meaning to my mind is man to man and woman to woman, people mix up all the others and put them into 1 basket.

You need to have "common" definitions when speaking about such things. Your definition of gay is different than that of the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays. You have also now lumped many lady boys into simply being gay since if the have male genitalia they are clearly male by definition across the globe. So, it can cause a lot of confusion in who and what we are talking about using your definition of gay. I guess we could call the Ladyboy's with a penis "Gay Ladyboys" .

I had a Gay yes Gay friend come over for a 2 week holiday last year..He was a litle confused with it all here..His quote was " I like my men to be men" when I asked him if he liked Ladyboys! So there is confusion in all groupsif you have to group people.My opinion for whats its worth is "Live and let Live"! When you are old enough to decide then its up to you what so called gender you want to be...

Excluding those who get into it for the sex trade .. I'd have to assume Ladyboys themselves are not attracted to gay men. It would seem they want a man who likes women or on the other end of the stick (no pun intended) they simply don't want to be gay. I also think that if a gay person was attracted to a Ladyboy, they may not be all that gay as they think. It would seem more logical that curious hetrosexual men or bisexual men would be the ones most interested in a Ladyboy .. ones with a penis anyway.

Gay men aren't necessarily attracted to gay men. They have gender roles just like hetero couples. It's much easier to make out when you see two lesbians where one is a bull and the other is still effeminate. So, essentially, a ladyboy isn't doing anything different than a gay man playing the feminine role. They will still be going with the same type of masculine man. Obviously a sex change is a different thing, but then a man is a transsexual. So, I don't see the difference in one man dressing up like a woman and another playing the feminine role, apart from the obvious wardrobe shift. Either way neither one of them ever takes on the masculine role to my knowledge. If you ask me one of them is just an overachiever. Two things can still be the same thing even with degrees that separate them.

[hellodolly]

So why do you think (to everyone) that there seems to be a unusual amount of trans gender people in Thailand? Ok I know all some will say not enough! But...have a guess even or give it some thought to why..

here are the reasons that I have been told.

1.Lean bhap..thats copy to be in the gang.

2. Thailand is more open in general towards being gay.

3. Parents would rather see their daughter with another girl as a teenager than with a boy who may get here pregnant.

4. Poisons in the air and food.

5.Born that way.

6. Too much soy milk and tophu in the diet as a teenager which has too many female hormones in..The N.H.S. in the UK warns not to give this to teenage boys!

7.Being taught by elders and piers thats its acceptable to be Bi sexual..

I would probely agree across the board with all this reasons which add up to the reason we seem and do see more cross gender people in Thailand.

So any other reason you all can think of?

As for no.1 I would say that its a fair to say that maybe children who have become a Katoey at a eary age need time to find out if its what they really want so maybe there could be a reason for councilling at a early age? I will get slated for that but as I said some do it to become one of the gang..Told to me and seen by Thais...

Well I would not agree with 4 6 and 7 but I believe the others have merit.

Number 2 I believe to mean Thailand is more open to it as you say. It is because of the open mindedness that they have that it looks like there is a lot more of it here than in Countries less tolerant of it. They do how ever have just as many only they tend to hide it.

[DumFarang]

What I have noticed, here in Chiang mai, (don't know about other places in Thailand) a lot of ladyboys are gone, where you saw before a group of girlfriends always joined with at least 1 ladyboy they seem to be be joined by at least 1 tomboy nowadays.....

Very strange.. don't know where the ladyboys went.. and I don't know where all the tomboys come from all of a sudden...

The ladyboy population has exploded here where I am in the south. Ladyboy migration?

Do either of you hear much about Ladyboy suicides? I remember years ago I read an article about the very high rate of suicides by ladyboys. It seem to infer that many worked in the cities and then when they got older they returned home only to become very depressed and kill themselves. I've always wondered how much truth was in the story but always think about it when i see Ladyboys and the very very few older ones I see.

A fair share of them die of disease too. Obviously that doesn't account for all, but it's common.

[DumFarang]

Nisa you got me confused by saying gay and lesbian are not the same ??????.............Lesbians are gay ladies. if not what are they ????

I didn't say gay and lesbian were not the same. What I said was. "... the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays "

I like you define both male and females attracted to the same sex as being gay.

Edit: maybe it is different up North, but in Bangkok I learned long ago not to refer to a women as gay because it confused Thais and I received a response on more than one occasion asking how a women can be gay.

I think I'd go crazy trying get one of them to comprehend that. Mental note: never try to explain the definition of gay to a Thai person.

[chooka]

I think they are flogging a dead horse. You can't turn a gay man straight.