webfact Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Monks teach maleness to Thai 'ladyboys' Feature - by Janesara Fugal CHIANG KHONG, July 16, 2011 (AFP) - The 15-year-old aspiring "ladyboy" delicately applied a puff of talcum powder to his nose -- an act of rebellion at the Thai Buddhist temple where he is learning to "be a man". "They have rules here that novice monks cannot use powder, make-up, or perfume, cannot run around and be girlish," said Pipop Thanajindawong, who was sent to Wat Kreung Tai Wittaya, in Chiang Khong on the Thai-Laos border, to tame his more feminine traits. But the monks running the temple's programme to teach masculinity to boys who are "katoeys", the Thai term for transsexuals or ladyboys, have their controversial work cut out. "Sometimes we give them money to buy snacks but he saved it up to buy mascara," headteacher Phra Pitsanu Witcharato said of Pipop. Novice monks' days pass as in any other temple -- waking before dawn, collecting alms and studying Buddhism -- but every Friday attention turns to the katoeys at the attached school. "Were you born as a man or a woman or can you not specify your gender - not man or woman?" asked Phra Pitsanu at a recent assembly. "You cannot be anything else but your true gender, which is a man. As a novice you can only be a man." The temple has a stricter interpretation than others of rules governing behaviour during Buddhist training that is a key childhood experience for many Thai boys. Pupils are banned from using perfume and make-up and prohibited from singing, playing music and running. "We cannot change all of them but what we can do is to control their behavior to make them understand that they were born as a man... and cannot act like a woman," said Phra Pitsanu. The Kreung Tai temple has run the course for boys aged between 11 and 18 since 2008, after former principle Phra Maha Vuthichai Vachiramethi devised the programme because he thought reports of katoeys in the monkhood had "affected the stability of Thai Buddhism". He told AFP that he hopes the teaching methods will be rolled out to other temple schools to "solve the deviant behavior in novices". It is an attitude that enrages gay rights and diversity campaigner Natee Teerarojanapong, who said trying to alter the boys' sense of gender and sexuality was "extremely dangerous". "These kids will become self-hating because they have been taught by respected monks that being gay is bad. That is terrible for them. They will never live happily," he told AFP. Gay and katoey culture is visible and widely tolerated in Thailand, which has one of the largest transsexual populations in the world, and Natee said the temple's programme is "very out of date". But Phra Atcha Apiwanno, 28, disputed the idea that society accepted ladyboys and said he joined the monkhood because of social stigma about his sexual identity. "The reason I became a monk is to train my habits, to control my expression... I didn't want to be like this," he told AFP. Monks have had limited success in their project -- three of the six ladyboys to have graduated from the school are said to have embraced their masculinity, but the remaining three went on to have sex changes. Pipop said he has struggled with his sexuality at the temple. At home in Bangkok he dressed like a girl, putting on make-up and taking hormones until he developed breasts, but he has since stopped the treatment and wears only a surreptitious dab of powder at the temple. He does not believe he will live up to his family's hopes that he will become more manly. "I can make them proud even I'm not a man," the teenager said, adding he had given up his ambition to be an airhostess and now aspires to work in a bank. He thinks he will have a sex change after graduation. "Once I leave the monkhood the first thing I want to do is to shout, to scream out loud saying: 'I can go back to being the same again!'" -- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-07-16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devaram Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha. However a woman monk cannot use makeup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tominbkk Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I don't understand what this gender modification training has to do with Buddhism. More blowhard closet queens in orange trying to stop everybody else's rights to be who and what they want to be. Again Thailand proves that their unique taliban style of Buddhism will not tolerate anything but the party line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 A waste of time. These children are clearly wire differently in the brain than their genitals are externally observed. You can't retrain a brain to be what it is not. Only add more information to what it has. If you load in basic contradictions it only breeds mental disharmony, and doesn't correct what some see as a social disharmony between the individual and society. Conservative Christians have tried this in the west and caused more deviation than was started with. This includes family men living a lie inside themselves and finally opting for abandoning their families, or even as drastic as suicide etc. A waste of time or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha. However a woman monk cannot use makeup. Not sure how you got this. I know two women who went to be monks for a spell. You just don't see them walking around asking for alms etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glegolo Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 My God, it is like going back a couple of hundred years in time. Imagine having a sociaty like Thailand, free and approving of most gays, lesbians and ladyboys and such stuff. And than within the very same sociaty having these Buddist monks living their lifes like it was the year of 1036 AD or something. No it is really time to fresh up the monks and the tempels in Thailand in order to make them modern and more in terms with today! Glegolo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maipenrai007 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Love the headline makes great reading. ROTFWL - Not buying lollies but make up!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DP25 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Again Thailand proves that their unique taliban style of Buddhism will not tolerate anything but the party line. Exactly like Taliban 2.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeral Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Women cannot be monks in Thailand - in Si Lanka yes, but not in Thailand. It shows that sexism and homophobia are not the sole preserves of Christians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supaprik Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 go the monks 555 another misguided attempt me tinks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeral Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha. However a woman monk cannot use makeup. Not sure how you got this. I know two women who went to be monks for a spell. You just don't see them walking around asking for alms etc. They were not monks - they can go to the temple and live like a monk, but they wear white etc and are not regarded as monks as such - nor do they have they same rights and obligations. THere are some women protesting this as it is not universally so in other Theravada Buddhist countries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horsewell Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 When they are finished with their education they can then go on with their lives, whatever they choose to do. It will give them some perspective and time to decide what is the best for themselves. They will also learn patients and that they will be able to get what they want if they can wait a little while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bankei Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha. However a woman monk cannot use makeup. Not sure how you got this. I know two women who went to be monks for a spell. You just don't see them walking around asking for alms etc. Althought nothing to do with Katoy monks, there are now large numbers of fully ordained nuns (Bhikkhuni) in Thailand. Not as many as the white robed Mee Chi but the numbers are increasing. Nuns/novice nuns/bhikkhuni, mee chi as well as novice/monks are not supposed to wear make up or perfumes etc. These are part of the 8 precepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devaram Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha. However a woman monk cannot use makeup. Not sure how you got this. I know two women who went to be monks for a spell. You just don't see them walking around asking for alms etc. Hi, officially they cannot be fully ordained as a monastic in Thailand as they do in Sri Lanka and they refuse to recognize any woman who makes it to sri lanka for ordination. However I think there is a wat in Thailand that has a woman who did this but I dont know much about her or where she is and how many others got the ordination from her. On the other hand many women do live as a "maichi" which is a semi-monastic who wears white but they have a lower status in the social order and must do allot of menial tasks. The bottom line is that girls cannot go to stay in the wat when they are young to study Buddhism as the boys do therefore they dont get the training that might make them chose a better life than working at a bar or a brothel. In other words monastic ordination for women is a huge threat to the sex trade in Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimky Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Some people are born with tendencies to murder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tragickingdom Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha. However a woman monk cannot use makeup. Interesting comment, but unfortunately you are wrong. There are numerous women ordained, but when it comes to equality it is a different thing. As far as I know only in the Catholic church women are valued differently and get the important tasks of providing top notch education and healthcare, but than we come to priests and it is just like in any other religion a man's world. Sure protestants and the church of England have females but they are "Employed" and get paid to do the job. I cannot think of any other major religion where females are treated equally. Mohammedanism?? Not really.... Judaism, not at all, Christianity? of course not, in many communities they are not even allowed to become a member of a political party, though they are supposed to vote for their men. The bottom line, religious men always feel the urge to discriminate on people who are not manly enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prakhonchai nick Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Why don't the Monks just do what they do best...CHANTING! Forget all the other crap! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anon467367354 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 the flipping of one's gender seems to be epidemic in Thailand unlike any other country I have ever heard of. This is not only boys acting like girls, but girls acting and looking much like men. The "problem" will never be "solved" as long as the priority of convenience outweighs the consequence. The over consumption of Phthalates in the food chain from plastic bottles that sit in the sun and putting oily and hot food in plastic bags continues. A well known fact that Phthalates are carcinogenic and cause chromosome damage is well documented is a clear factor in gender disorders. The over use of estrogen mimicking pesticides is also well documented in causing the feminine qualities of a species to take dominance ie. hermaphroditic frogs and fish. In the case of hormones, a small amount has the same effect as a lot but in this country more is always better. More chemicals, more antibiotics, more volume, more MSG, the more "modern" the better. You can't change something that is by telling it it is not, ludicrous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirchai Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Some people are born with tendencies to murder Many people are born with an undeveloped brain and never developed it.........................:jap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Some people are born with tendencies to murder Many people are born with an undeveloped brain and never developed it.........................:jap: Well said sirchai! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorecard Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Two points: 1. I though Buddhism taught acceptance. 2. Over many years I've heard many stories about monks molesting young temple boys. A bit inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geriatrickid Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 This thread is sure to catch fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travelmann Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Like most religions based on fairy tales and gobbledey gook and no facts he made his first mistake when he uttered this or maybe they counted his chromosomes "Were you born as a man or a woman or can you not specify your gender - not man or woman?" asked Phra Pitsanu at a recent assembly. "You cannot be anything else but your true gender, which is a man. As a novice you can only be a man." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hanuman1 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 A waste of time. These children are clearly wire differently in the brain than their genitals are externally observed. You can't retrain a brain to be what it is not. Only add more information to what it has. If you load in basic contradictions it only breeds mental disharmony, and doesn't correct what some see as a social disharmony between the individual and society. Conservative Christians have tried this in the west and caused more deviation than was started with. This includes family men living a lie inside themselves and finally opting for abandoning their families, or even as drastic as suicide etc. A waste of time or worse. Quite right. Not sure what religion has to do with sexuality anyway. If anyone knows of any express (NOT implied) pronouncements from Buddha, Jesus or any other leading historical religious figure about the rights or wrongs of gaydom, let him speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHANGOVER Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 If anyone knows of any express (NOT implied) pronouncements from Buddha, Jesus or any other leading historical religious figure about the rights or wrongs of gaydom, let him speak. ....or forever hold her 'piece'! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frtiz Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 (edited) These guys should team up with Presidential Candidate Bachman and her sick institute trying to cure homosexuals. What is it with any form of religion and their misogynistic and xenophobic attitudes?. (yes I know Buddhism is not strictly deemed a religion) On reading the title I thought this was another 'Not the Nation' article but alas the sad reality is that it's not.. Edited July 16, 2011 by frtiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marc11864 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 I was wrong. Buddhism is a religion. It's the only reason for such stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobus Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Interesting article. If a person with same sex attractions sincerely wishes to comfortably be able to live a straight life and is willing to pay his dues, so to speak, it can be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katasyd Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 If he was just gay, it would be accepted and probably the abbott would take a shining to him. Homosexuality is rife in temples here and the abbott probably likes the with 'maleness' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
somchai69 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 The headline just shows how ridiculous Thailand has become. I remember seeing a group of 15 year old boys and girls in Korat, one was as camp as Christmas, but was accepted as part of the group. In a way that would never happen in the West. Tolerance is one of the keystones of Buddhism. Lets keep it that way The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha. However a woman monk cannot use makeup. Rather a contradictory statement.............?? Women cannot be Monks, they become Nuns. wearing a white robe instead of the saffron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts