URGENT -- Gunman kills 'at least' 80 at youth camp near Oslo

[Lite Beer]

Norway accused wanted to "change society"

Oslo- The Norwegian man charged with the twin attacks that claimed 92 lives wanted to "change society" with his acts, his lawyer said Sunday

The 32-year-old man had told police investigators that he wanted to "strike at society, its fundamentals and how our society is governed," lawyer Geir Lippestad said in an interview with Norwegian broadcaster NRK.

The accused - named by Norwegian media as Anders Behring Breivik - has been charged with the Friday shooting spree that claimed at least 85 lives, as well the bombing hours earlier in central Oslo that killed seven people.

Meanwhile Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg and other members of government, as well as King Harald and other members of the royal family Sunday were due to attend a service at Oslo Cathedral. Flowers piled high outside the church and people also lit candles overnight.

Lippestad declined to comment further on Breivik's possible motives but said his client would offer more information on Monday at a custody hearing. Breivik had requested that the hearing not be held behind closed doors.

Breivik was also to be examined by a police doctor prior to the custody hearing. Lippestad said he could not comment on Breivik's mental status.

The death toll remained at 92 as of Sunday morning, Oslo police chief Sveinung Sponheim told reporters. Five people remain unaccounted for at the Utoya island, near Oslo, the scene of the shooting rampage where 85 people were killed.

A search was ongoing in the waters off the island. Sponheim said, adding that police were also searching through buildings in Oslo, including government offices, that were badly damaged in the blast.

About 100 people had or were undergoing treatment for their injuries. At least nine injured in the blast were in serious condition, he said.

Chilling insights into Breivik's views appeared in a manifesto and video published on the internet, just prior to the deadly acts.

Police said they were studying the manifesto. The 1,500-page manuscript titled "Declaration of Independence of Europe," outlined Breivik's views and plans in detail.

Lippestad told NRK that Breivik had worked on it "for years."

The manuscript slammed multiculturalism and stated how immigrants, especially Muslims, should be banished from Europe. It was signed with the name Andrew Berwick, likely a Anglicized version of the suspect's Norwegian name

-- The Nation 2011-07-24

[Scott]

Several posts with off-topic arguments and inflammatory remarks have been removed along with replies to them.

[Travel2003]

Denies he broke the law? Is he building an INSANITY defense?

Yes one would think so.

But then, when one read and listen to his lawyer, he acknowledge the fact that is was a gruesome act, but still claims it was nescesary.

When reading the log/diary he has in the end of the manifest on internet (1,500-page manifesto titled 2083 — A European Declaration of Independence, under the pseudonym "Andrew Berwick", ), one can see that it took him long time to plan it.

Seems to me that her will not claim insanity, but wants to be noticed.

Makes me think about all the people participating with Nazis in their killings, the more recent Pol Pot, and the school shootings. They all were not insane, even though they participated in both planning and executions of the plans.

Something for the experts.

[EvilDrSomkid]

Denies he broke the law? Is he building an INSANITY defense?

It think he is not referring to current Norwegian criminal law. He is not insane. Quite the opposite.

Going by what I have read of his posts and his video manifesto, (did you watch it?) he has a very high opinion of his own abilities, knowledge and skills. His 1500 page declaration must incredibly boring to read. He repeats himself quite a bit.

Possibly a megalomaniac in the making.

Edited July 24, 2011 by EvilDrSomkid

[Lite Beer]

Police: Operation in Oslo related to bombing

OSLO, Norway (AP) -- Police say they are involved in an operation in Oslo that is related to the bombing.

Anders Fridenberg said Sunday that the operation is in eastern Oslo. He would not give any further details.

The neighborhood appears to be residential.

Continued.. http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/EU_NORWAY_EXPLOSION?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-24-06-23-54

[Travel2003]

Denies he broke the law? Is he building an INSANITY defense?

It think he is not referring to current Norwegian criminal law. He is not insane. Quite the opposite.

Going by what I have read of his posts and his video manifesto, (did you watch it?) he has a very high opinion of his own abilities, knowledge and skills. His 1500 page declaration must incredibly boring to read. He repeats himself quite a bit.

Possibly a megalomaniac in the making.

Agree

Tried to skim through the manifesto.

It is boring.

I think the word "rant" can be used?

A lot of hate, sprinkled with some stats which can be used which way one wants.

He is good with words. He proves that in the Norwegian discussion Forum he participated in.

It is probably very interesting to people studying Breivik's behavour, in order to get into his mind.

An other interesting thing is that he already seem to know that being alone is the best, because no forms of communication needs to be used, thus the possibility to be picked up is minimal.

Also, as already mentioned in the media, he never really threathened anyone or encouraged anyone to do any harm, online, until he released to so called manifesto.

This made it difficult to pick him up on the radar.

[EvilDrSomkid]

Denies he broke the law? Is he building an INSANITY defense?

It think he is not referring to current Norwegian criminal law. He is not insane. Quite the opposite.

Going by what I have read of his posts and his video manifesto, (did you watch it?) he has a very high opinion of his own abilities, knowledge and skills. His 1500 page declaration must incredibly boring to read. He repeats himself quite a bit.

Possibly a megalomaniac in the making.

Agree

Tried to skim through the manifesto.

It is boring.

I think the word "rant" can be used?

A lot of hate, sprinkled with some stats which can be used which way one wants.

He is good with words. He proves that in the Norwegian discussion Forum he participated in.

It is probably very interesting to people studying Breivik's behavour, in order to get into his mind.

An other interesting thing is that he already seem to know that being alone is the best, because no forms of communication needs to be used, thus the possibility to be picked up is minimal.

Also, as already mentioned in the media, he never really threathened anyone or encouraged anyone to do any harm, online, until he released to so called manifesto.

This made it difficult to pick him up on the radar.

The only call for violence I managed to find was that he urged bombing of Saudi. He feels that since Shia Muslims are in a minority that they are not really a threat. He said that feeding the oil rich Sunni dictatorships is worse than Iran.

He has probably read Robert Baer's books. VERY interesting reading, btw.

But that is a whole other topic.

I have not seen any mention of what he did for a living. The company he founded 3 years ago apparently was just a cover for being able to buy the fertilizer. He has been planning this for years.

edit: Regarding the video manifesto, I must add, he is the first person I have seen to admire Vlad " The Impaler" Tepek.

Edited July 24, 2011 by EvilDrSomkid

[norwayeagle]

From Police log:

17.27: Shots reported fired at Utøya to Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.30: Operations central in Oslo police distrikt received the message as well.

17.38: Oslo police distrikt receives request for SWAT from Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.52: First Police patrol arrive the area - must wait for prober boat.

18.03: Boat on it's way reported.

18.09: SWAT arrives.

18.25: SWAT land on the island.

18.27: Gunman arrested.

The entire operation takes exactly 60 minutes,

including waiting for boat and the SWAT to move from Oslo (prox 30-32 Km) to operations area.

Norwegian police do not have helicopters?

Hola Sensei...well they do,but am very glad asked and that you find this a "bit un professional !

Thanks for your awaken mind

The issue regarding helicopters have also been covered in the Norwegian media (by the Police).

The desicion in regards to use the helicopter or not was taken, based upon time, logistics, etc.

Im not sure if Norwayeagle is Norwegian, but if you are, you should be able to read this in the Norwegian media.

SWAT or armed guards on every gathering.

How many must be gathered, before armed personnel should be present?

Name one single country, in the histroy of the world, where that has been feasable.

edit due to spelling

You have great knowledge my friend

[mpoppel]

NRK just now reporting that one of those injured on Utoya has died in hospital; death toll now 86 and overall 93 killed

[Travel2003]

Denies he broke the law? Is he building an INSANITY defense?

It think he is not referring to current Norwegian criminal law. He is not insane. Quite the opposite.

Going by what I have read of his posts and his video manifesto, (did you watch it?) he has a very high opinion of his own abilities, knowledge and skills. His 1500 page declaration must incredibly boring to read. He repeats himself quite a bit.

Possibly a megalomaniac in the making.

Agree

Tried to skim through the manifesto.

It is boring.

I think the word "rant" can be used?

A lot of hate, sprinkled with some stats which can be used which way one wants.

He is good with words. He proves that in the Norwegian discussion Forum he participated in.

It is probably very interesting to people studying Breivik's behavour, in order to get into his mind.

An other interesting thing is that he already seem to know that being alone is the best, because no forms of communication needs to be used, thus the possibility to be picked up is minimal.

Also, as already mentioned in the media, he never really threathened anyone or encouraged anyone to do any harm, online, until he released to so called manifesto.

This made it difficult to pick him up on the radar.

The only call for violence I managed to find was that he urged bombing of Saudi. He feels that since Shia Muslims are in a minority that they are not really a threat. He said that feeding the oil rich Sunni dictatorships is worse than Iran.

He has probably read Robert Baer's books. VERY interesting reading, btw.

But that is a whole other topic.

I have not seen any mention of what he did for a living. The company he founded 3 years ago apparently was just a cover for being able to buy the fertilizer. He has been planning this for years.

edit: Regarding the video manifesto, I must add, he is the first person I have seen to admire Vlad " The Impaler" Tepek.

According to Norwegian newspaper VG:

He worked in a callcenter for Telia 1999-2003. Did his job fairly well.

He started E-commerce Group AS, and IT (and datastorage/service) company in 2005. That company went bust in 2008.

He started the Geofarm in 2009.

His political career seems to have been going nowhere, and he was not particular outspoken.

Friends say his extreme political views to the far right came very late (late 20s).

I have not seen anything regarding his education.

[Travel2003]

NRK just now reporting that one of those injured on Utoya has died in hospital; death toll now 86 and overall 93 killed

Yes, and in addition there are 66 injured from the island, and another 30 persons injured from the bomb blast.

The numbers are so staggering, I honestly still have problems comprehend how many they are.

It will sink in when the entire list with names, age, and gender is released.

[Ulysses G.]

Slaughtering innocent children has nothing to do with politics. It is all about hatred and evil.

[transam]

Slaughtering innocent children has nothing to do with politics. It is all about hatred and evil.

Very true. Most nations have suffered the same carnage. In UK l lost my fire arms license cos of a few nutters. You will never stop the nutter, if no gun then something else.

RIP my Norwegian friends.

[Travel2003]

Denies he broke the law? Is he building an INSANITY defense?

It think he is not referring to current Norwegian criminal law. He is not insane. Quite the opposite.

Going by what I have read of his posts and his video manifesto, (did you watch it?) he has a very high opinion of his own abilities, knowledge and skills. His 1500 page declaration must incredibly boring to read. He repeats himself quite a bit.

Possibly a megalomaniac in the making.

Turns out parts of the manifest is direct copy paste from Ted Kaczynski's manifest.

He just changed some words here and there to make it look like another issue.

Anyhow,

I really hope someone manage to tell him that he is nothing else than a coward and a plagiarist.

That he is not important to this world.

He is just another lunatic mass morderer that will only be remembered for his wrongdoings.

[JUDAS]

I may be wrong but another sickening aspect of this crime is the punishment he may receive. I believe the maximum sentence under Norwegian law is 21 years. Arnfinn Nesset was Norway's worst serial killer, who received the maximum 21 years..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnfinn_Nesset

[Steely Dan]

I may be wrong but another sickening aspect of this crime is the punishment he may receive. I believe the maximum sentence under Norwegian law is 21 years. Arnfinn Nesset was Norway's worst serial killer, who received the maximum 21 years.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnfinn_Nesset

I would just add that such a sentence would seem liberal in the extreme - I suspect the irony of this is not lost on the accused.

[geriatrickid]

I may be wrong but another sickening aspect of this crime is the punishment he may receive. I believe the maximum sentence under Norwegian law is 21 years. Arnfinn Nesset was Norway's worst serial killer, who received the maximum 21 years.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnfinn_Nesset

I would just add that such a sentence would seem liberal in the extreme - I suspect the irony of this is not lost on the accused.

Norway's correctional system emphasizes rehabilitation, treatment and reintegration, and the results show that it works. There are about 3600 inmates in the system with an approximate 140 other detainees in treatment facilities at specialised hospitals. I think the court proceedings will shock many non Scandanavians as there will not be an emphasis upon punishment or retribution. Rather, the system will work on the premise that the accused was a mentally ill person. If considered mentally ill and a danger to society, the accused if convicted will be sent to a hospital's psychiatric treatment center and not released until such time as the assessment is that the detainee no longer presents a threat to society. Considering the events and the information so far, I doubt this man will ever be released.

This case will certainly present a challenge to the Norwegian people as the legal remedies available may be insufficient to respond to the severity of the crime. When the laws were made and adapted no one in Norway ever thought a madman like this would appear.

[balo]

Even if he only will get a maximum penalty of 21 years in prison , there is another law that can be used .

The Norwegian society must be protected from him and he will have to report his movements to the police for the rest of his life.

But im not sure the victims of this tragedy will ever forget , Breivik will be 53 years old when he will be released from prison.

[koheesti]

I dont remember how to attach a picture here, so the following link is to an article in a Norwgian newspaper.

It is the picture which is important.

http://www.vg.no/nyh...?artid=10080648

btw - for those who can't read Norwegian, if you open the webpage in the Google Chrome browser it will translate to English for you.

[Lite Beer]

KILLER: this picture shows Anders Behring Breivik on The island, where he attacks your joints against youths who were in the Labor Party youth summer camp. NRK-photographer Marius Arnesen didn't know what he had caught on film before. Photo: Marus Arnesen/NRK

[Pakboong]

Among the oddities I find in the news reports is a car bomb with a trunk full of explosives could not do any where near that much damage. The blast has been reported to be equal to 20 tons of explosives. A car trunk, like the one pictured, could not even hold 1% of that amount.

[orosee]

Among the oddities I find in the news reports is a car bomb with a trunk full of explosives could not do any where near that much damage. The blast has been reported to be equal to 20 tons of explosives. A car trunk, like the one pictured, could not even hold 1% of that amount.

TNT Equivalent

If he had used TNT, he would have had to move 20 tons (which would have been very hard for him to do).

Choosing an explosive with a higher energy density, he was able to get by with a smaller vehicle.

That's why a Megaton nuclear warhead doesn't weigh one million tons (an amazing rocket that would be!).

[animatic]

From Police log:

17.27: Shots reported fired at Utøya to Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.30: Operations central in Oslo police distrikt received the message as well.

17.38: Oslo police distrikt receives request for SWAT from Nordre Buskerud police distrikt.

17.52: First Police patrol arrive the area - must wait for prober boat.

18.03: Boat on it's way reported.

18.09: SWAT arrives.

18.25: SWAT land on the island.

18.27: Gunman arrested.

The entire operation takes exactly 60 minutes,

including waiting for boat and the SWAT to move from Oslo (prox 30-32 Km) to operations area.

I answer you to be polite .The Specials should have been there from the day 1 they opened the gathering !

Why? It was a youth gathering, maybe one or two guards needed,

but there was no history to expect anything like this.

The SWAT team seems to have moved pretty quickly...

can you imagine the time to do this in Bangkok?

This is sadly a grand horrible anomaly,

which will now close tighter the heretofore

open and relaxed Norwegian culture.

Edited July 25, 2011 by animatic

[jybkk]

Even if he only will get a maximum penalty of 21 years in prison , there is another law that can be used .

The Norwegian society must be protected from him and he will have to report his movements to the police for the rest of his life.

But im not sure the victims of this tragedy will ever forget , Breivik will be 53 years old when he will be released from prison.

A prisoner can be detained indefinitely if he is considered to still be a danger.

The maximum penalty awarded is 21 years. After that time can be added if he is still considered a danger in five year blocks.

Life imprisonment in Norway

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaBy law it is possible to receive life imprisonment in Norway, but there are no examples of such after the latest correctional law passed in 2002. There are basically two types of maximum penalty laws:

• The maximum determinate penalty is 21 years imprisonment, but only a small percentage of prisoners serve more than 14 years. Prisoners will typically get unsupervised parole for weekends etc. after serving ⅓ of their sentence (a maximum of 7 years) and can receive early release after serving ⅔ of their sentence (a maximum of 14 years).

• The maximum indeterminate penalty, called "containment" (Norwegian: forvaring), is also set at 21 years imprisonment, and the prisoner is required to serve at least 10 years before becoming eligible for parole. "Containment" is used when the prisoner is deemed a danger to society and there is a great chance of committing violent crimes in the future. If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after serving the original sentence, the prisoner can receive up to five years additional containment.

If the additional time is served, and the offender is still considered dangerous, a prisoner can continue to receive up to five years additional containment, and this, in theory, could result inactual life imprisonment. ^[1] However, the offender can be paroled or released at any time if it is determined that the offender is no longer a danger to society.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_imprisonment_in_Norway

[webfact]

NORWAY TRAGEDY

Thai government offers condolence to Norway

By The Nation

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Sunday sent a letter of condolence to his Norwegian counterpart over July 22's twin shooting and bomb attacks in Oslo and a nearby island which killed at least 92 people and wounded several more.

The outgoing Thai premier's condolence letter was sent to Norwegian Prime Minster Jens Stoltenberg.

Meanwhile Foreign Minister Kasit Priomya also offered condolences to his counterpart Jonas Gahr Støre, Norwegian Foreign Minister.

Thai Foreign Ministry published a statement in its website, condemning the attacks in Oslo and Utoya Island on July 22 which caused numerous deaths and injuries.

"All forms of violence against innocent civilians are never justified, no matter the cause," according to the statement.

The Thai government also expressed its profound sympathies and condolences to the victims and the bereaved families, as well as to the Government and people of Norway.

The tragedies in Norway presently have claimed at least 92 lives, injured 97 others and left several missing.

Police said on Sunday that the suspect in Norway's twin attacks says he acted alone in a "cruel" but "necessary" slaughter planned over many months, according to a news report by Agence France-Presse (AFP).

-- The Nation 2011-07-25

[Travel2003]

Among the oddities I find in the news reports is a car bomb with a trunk full of explosives could not do any where near that much damage. The blast has been reported to be equal to 20 tons of explosives. A car trunk, like the one pictured, could not even hold 1% of that amount.

TNT Equivalent

If he had used TNT, he would have had to move 20 tons (which would have been very hard for him to do).

Choosing an explosive with a higher energy density, he was able to get by with a smaller vehicle.

That's why a Megaton nuclear warhead doesn't weigh one million tons (an amazing rocket that would be!).

The police states in an article the bomb must have been minimum 1100 pounds heavy.

That is about 5-6 barrels.

Seems like it was a mini van used.

[remiss]

Number of killed has been adjusted to 68 at Utøya and 8 in Oslo.

The police also asserts that they arrived at the scene at Utøya as soon as possible.

Number of dead people may be adjusted at a later time since they are still searching..

Edited July 25, 2011 by remiss

[koheesti]

Number of killed has been adjusted to 68 at Utøya and 8 in Oslo.

The police also asserts that they arrived at the scene at Utøya as soon as possible.

Number of dead people may be adjusted at a later time since they are still searching..

Do you have a link to that 68 number?

[endure]

Number of killed has been adjusted to 68 at Utøya and 8 in Oslo.

The police also asserts that they arrived at the scene at Utøya as soon as possible.

Number of dead people may be adjusted at a later time since they are still searching..

Do you have a link to that 68 number?

From the London Times (it's behind a paywall):

"Meanwhile, police revised the death toll, saying that 68 young activists from the ruling Labour Party had died at their camp on Utoya, rather than 84. A total of eight people died in the bombing of Oslo’s government quarter, revised upwards from seven.

Both totals could still go up, warned police chief Oystein Maeland, who put the discrepancy down to the confused situation officers found on Utøya, the lengthy searches of the island and the surrounding fjord, and the need to prioritise survivors. "

[Travel2003]

Number of killed has been adjusted to 68 at Utøya and 8 in Oslo.

The police also asserts that they arrived at the scene at Utøya as soon as possible.

Number of dead people may be adjusted at a later time since they are still searching..

Do you have a link to that 68 number?

Most Norwegian newspapers online report it.

The police state they did not want to adjust the numbers again and again, after the 80+ estimate was reported since the press stated 10+.

In order to not create more confusion, the police did not adjust the numbers before now.

Especially the topography made it difficult to count all the bodies, since they were spread all over the island, and several were also in the water.

Then it got dark, and it got even more difficult, and some errors were made with the count, which forced them to do the count again.

The Police states the number was not the highest priority, but to make sure a search for bodies (or survivors) were made.

The numbers could always be dealt with later, but not the initial search.