Helicopter Safety In Thailand

[billd766]

My thoughts on the first two are that the pilot of the first was getting close to both his and the helicopters limits and either he made a very small error or more likely the weather caught him out which is the more likely reason.

He must have been doing his very best and it just happened.

The second accident may have been similar to the first but with the added bit that you are trying your best but remember there is a general in the back and he may have suffered from press-on-itis to the stage where again as in the first crash he may have made a small miscalculation or more likely again the weather changed at just the wrong time and place.

I used to work on helicopters during my time in the RAF as groundcrew and we lost one on an airtest just after a major service.

A nut had a spring clip to hold it onto one of the main rotor holding bolts either broke or was not fitted.

In the chain of maintenance was the guy who fitted it, his supervisor who checked it, an independent checker, a guy who pre-flighted the helicopter and the test pilot who actually flew it.

5 guys couldn't have missed it but the clip went missing, the rotor blade went vertical and the helicopter went in from 80 feet on a clear sunny day.

At least 2 of the 3 crashes in Thailand went in during extremely bad weather in very bad terrain.

I am sad for all the crew and passengers and for their families.

[seriouseats]

Baffles me that people just wont admit that asians are not made to drive anything..

exceptions dont make the rule.. There's a reason why top airline companies rarely if ever hire asian pilots, there's a reason why in the west the people failing their driving test everyday are always 500 asians and 5 young white guys.

It's just how it is, no racism. Asians and moving objects do not go together. Just like women.. There's a reason women get more accidents than men on the road even though men are known to drive faster. Women have less driving aptitude than men by default. This is why F1 pilots are white men for the most part and why slower speed racers are still mostly white/black/brown men and not asian/women.

It's like expecting the finest white basketball team to beat the finest black basketball team, it just wont happen no matter how hard you call me a racist to make yourself feel better.

[Travel2003]

Baffles me that people just wont admit that asians are not made to drive anything..

exceptions dont make the rule.. There's a reason why top airline companies rarely if ever hire asian pilots, there's a reason why in the west the people failing their driving test everyday are always 500 asians and 5 young white guys.

It's just how it is, no racism. Asians and moving objects do not go together. Just like women.. There's a reason women get more accidents than men on the road even though men are known to drive faster. Women have less driving aptitude than men by default. This is why F1 pilots are white men for the most part and why slower speed racers are still mostly white/black/brown men and not asian/women.

It's like expecting the finest white basketball team to beat the finest black basketball team, it just wont happen no matter how hard you call me a racist to make yourself feel better.

This is going to be very interesting to follow.

[Semper]

Baffles me that people just wont admit that asians are not made to drive anything..

exceptions dont make the rule.. There's a reason why top airline companies rarely if ever hire asian pilots, there's a reason why in the west the people failing their driving test everyday are always 500 asians and 5 young white guys.

It's just how it is, no racism. Asians and moving objects do not go together. Just like women.. There's a reason women get more accidents than men on the road even though men are known to drive faster. Women have less driving aptitude than men by default. This is why F1 pilots are white men for the most part and why slower speed racers are still mostly white/black/brown men and not asian/women.

It's like expecting the finest white basketball team to beat the finest black basketball team, it just wont happen no matter how hard you call me a racist to make yourself feel better.

IMO. Just to mention (on this forum) that women drivers are inferior compared to male drivers was a big mistake. You will know shortly.

[Dag]

IMO. Just to mention (on this forum) that women drivers are inferior compared to male drivers was a big mistake. You will know shortly.

Yes, but it should not be.....lets just wait to see if you are proved correct.

[Semper]

IMO. Just to mention (on this forum) that women drivers are inferior compared to male drivers was a big mistake. You will know shortly.

Yes, but it should not be.....lets just wait to see if you are proved correct.

Wanna bet?

[BuckarooBanzai]

Thai Army helicopters grounded after 3rd crash

BANGKOK (AP) -- Thailand's Army has suspended flights of its 20 Bell-212 helicopters after three fatal helicopter crashes in eight days.

Army Spokesman Col. Sansern Kaewkamnerd said Monday that the helicopters were ordered grounded so they could be examined after rotor failure was suspected as the cause of the latest crash Sunday that killed three soldiers and injured one.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_THAILAND_HELICOPTER_CRASH?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-25-02-55-47

[newtronbom]

Though rather getting away from the original topic, on our squadron we were not above doing something similar to newtronbom's "bulldogging". Sometimes, in idle moments during low level exercises, we'd flush out game birds, usually pheasants. The unfortunate creatures became pinned to the ground by the rotor downdraft and it was the job of the crewman to hop out whilst still in the hover and capture the birds which inevitably finished up in the officer's mess. It was a favoured way of capture, since the pheasant, when cooked, contained none of those bits of shot which you found in birds obtained in the normal way.

As you say, it can be a lot of fun. I have to mention though, that an angry 130 odd kilo stag, is a little different than a "pinned Pheasant" to catch. Certainly has a lot more "pucker factor". Still, most people would never make the jump for any reason, let alone for what some of us term fun. Counterfeit parts may be the cause of these crashes, but 3 in a week? Like another poster said, a lot of helicopters have been and are flying around all the time daily. Why this sudden peak? I hope the parts are not to blame, or we are going to see a lot more accidents. I'm sure others have thought of this too and it's being looked into as we write. It would be nice if they actually do make a statement and tell us when they do find out. Things happening in the military anywhere, tend to stay in that circle, often with good reason, so we may not find out.

[newtronbom]

Baffles me that people just wont admit that asians are not made to drive anything..

exceptions dont make the rule.. There's a reason why top airline companies rarely if ever hire asian pilots, there's a reason why in the west the people failing their driving test everyday are always 500 asians and 5 young white guys.

It's just how it is, no racism. Asians and moving objects do not go together. Just like women.. There's a reason women get more accidents than men on the road even though men are known to drive faster. Women have less driving aptitude than men by default. This is why F1 pilots are white men for the most part and why slower speed racers are still mostly white/black/brown men and not asian/women.

It's like expecting the finest white basketball team to beat the finest black basketball team, it just wont happen no matter how hard you call me a racist to make yourself feel better.

Thai Airways has a very good record. I have flown with them many times. No complaints. I would not say the same for what they call driving on the roads here though. As for women. I said it on another thread. Some can out drive most men back home. The percentage is far smaller here, but I think it's more a cultural/upbringing thing than a matter of gender and ability. I've just started teaching my 23 year old Thai stepdaughter to drive. She's taking to it like a duck to water. After only two days, she is driving better than some I see on the road daily - I am not being at all biased either - she just has the knack for it and a good head on her shoulders, along with great co-ordination. My wife is the opposite I'm sorry to say. I blame the poor driving here, on the way they are taught, the ease of getting a license and a bad attitude.

[Forethat]

It's just how it is, no racism. Asians and moving objects do not go together. Just like women.. There's a reason women get more accidents than men on the road even though men are known to drive faster. Women have less driving aptitude than men by default.

I am pretty sure statistics (last time I read som in this field) shows that women are involved in far more smaller accidents than men, and that 75% (or something in that region) of all serious and/or fatal accidents involves men.

There's a reason a woman pay less for the same typ of insurance compared to a man; they dont cause as a much havoc as men.

[seriouseats]

recently in canada i was made aware of recent statistics of cars with the most crash

mostly far strong cars that men would drive in their 40's to you know.. impress girls without having to get a penis enhancement.

From the statistic, 70% of women were driving those cars when accidents happened.

Not surprising to me, men die more often because of the young 16-22 year old crazy guys.. women have dangerous accidents all the time though, just at slower speed or they just kill the man driver in the other car.

[Travel2003]

It's just wonderful how we can use statistics the way we want.

We all use them.

Here is one:

There are so few black people playing ice hockey in USA, and still there are so many black athlets.

Conclusion must be that black people can not skate.

Regarding Asians and moving objects. Of course, this do not apply to any martial arts, or any sports where the athlete or opponent/targets are moving.

All the fighter pilots during the Vietnam and Korean wars were white.

Most of the lost choppers during the Vietnam war were piloted by South Vietnamese pilots.

[Trembly]

They are allowed to shout "bang!" as much as they like until they go hoarse. Then they get time off until they get their voices back.

Make of that what you will.

[Travel2003]

Notwithstanding all of the buffeting so far . . . . .

(if you had any experience in a major western operator of aircraft and) If you saw the training and maintenance budgets V the aircraft in the Thai Army / Navy / Air force inventory you would be afraid. You would be very afraid.

In other words, it is not a race (asian or not) issue.

Right?

[newtronbom]

Seems to be a lot of talk about women versus men. I am sure a lot of the difference is psychological. By this I mean, that if men were raised up from babies and got told every day, to believe that they would only ever be good at say, sewing for example and nearly all the men they saw were sewing away happily and the few who were driving cars, were looked at as being oddballs, different from normal. Women were all told that they were good at driving and machinery. The fact is that not all of them would be. Just as it is a fact that not all men are great drivers and many don't have a talent for machinery. Agree that hormones and fighting and a more powerful build would still be there, but try and imagine the difference it must make, being brought up that way. Whether this can account for all the disparity, I don't know for sure, but I don't think so. There still seems to be a gender related difference that I can't quite put my finger on. I could be wrong. As to the budget limitations on military training, if correct, it is even more surprising that airmen here are as professional and capable as they are, training under such a disadvantage. Hearing the number of fighter jets and helicopters up each day just here in Bangkok, I would not have thought their budget too tight. I know a few "career military" guys - as opposed to the people who just get enlisted when they turn 20 - who live in my area. Couple of flyers, a special forces lad, a counter terrorism guy and one who I think is an officer in the Infantry. All highly educated, well spoken and all except the special forces guy, speak quite good English. Their system does seem very different from what I knew, but then I am over 30 years out of date. They don't make the same salary that we do, but they are still well paid by Thai standards, unlike the police force for example. I don't see Asians being any less able than westerners. They do seem to specialize more though, not so many "Jack of all trades" around like back home.

[Dag]

^ Its the common sense decision making factors and asian face saving scenarios that make the difference......look at the roads and the driving.....do you really think the skies would be that much different.......and a high education does not make the difference......just look and talk to people that employ university graduates here and ask

[newtronbom]

^ Its the common sense decision making factors and asian face saving scenarios that make the difference......look at the roads and the driving.....do you really think the skies would be that much different.......and a high education does not make the difference......just look and talk to people that employ university graduates here and ask

In the West, we call face saving not getting embarrassed. There is a difference between the road and the sky too. In the sky you are among professionals, on the roads it's mostly amateurs! As for education, I said they were "highly educated" by which I did not mean your average BA grad that anyone can pass and that level of ed does make a difference, as most people never try it, let alone graduate! Shows both brains and dedication, which are not easy to find as you seem to know.You should know too, that stupid decisions are made by "jet jockeys" in particular and others world wide, to either avoid embarrassment/save face or "one up" the next guy. If their trick bit of flying comes off they are a hero, if not it's a disgrace or sometimes death. Unofficially encouraged world wide. It is these type flyers who will go the extra distance to get the job done. If they all flew by the book, there would be many who would have never been rescued. If you know a military or rescue flyboy/lady just ask them and see if I am Wrong!

[Dag]

You do not have to be a professional to pass an exam......I should know.

Going the extra mile and knowing what you are doing while doing it is also very different.

You really think the military pass system is much different to the rest of the countries attitude to passing you even if you fail ??

I know of a western military guy that was brought out here to teach some specific procedures to your so called highly educated individuals and he failed them all because...gee whiz....they were not up to scratch. He got sent home for not passing the spoilt military brats and was told 'that is not how it is done here, you cannot fail them'.....seems no different in the military than elsewhere...just higher class of such.

You should know the difference with your 100 ++ hours.

[DP25]

I know of a western military guy that was brought out here to teach some specific procedures to your so called highly educated individuals and he failed them all because...gee whiz....they were not up to scratch.

I've met dozens of these guys in Soi Cowboy

[Dag]

I know of a western military guy that was brought out here to teach some specific procedures to your so called highly educated individuals and he failed them all because...gee whiz....they were not up to scratch.

I've met dozens of these guys in Soi Cowboy

I dont blaming them for going there after said training difficulties.....gotta destress somewhere.

[peter1963]

Baffles me that people just wont admit that asians are not made to drive anything..

exceptions dont make the rule.. There's a reason why top airline companies rarely if ever hire asian pilots, there's a reason why in the west the people failing their driving test everyday are always 500 asians and 5 young white guys.

It's just how it is, no racism. Asians and moving objects do not go together. Just like women.. There's a reason women get more accidents than men on the road even though men are known to drive faster. Women have less driving aptitude than men by default. This is why F1 pilots are white men for the most part and why slower speed racers are still mostly white/black/brown men and not asian/women.

It's like expecting the finest white basketball team to beat the finest black basketball team, it just wont happen no matter how hard you call me a racist to make yourself feel better.

This is going to be very interesting to follow.

I lokk forward too!

[Thai at Heart]

I go with contaminated fuel, although the statement about getting rid of watermelon soldiers was a bit chilling.

Did all the helicopters come from the same base?

[xbusman]

I would really doubt contaminated fuel caused these accidents. Each and every preflight includes taking a sample from the sump and visually inspecting the fuel. The odds that something was introduced into three machines and was missed by all three pilots is rather remote. The more I hear of these, and the subsequent grounding of the fleet, the more I am inclined to believe that they have a counterfeit parts problem.

[Dag]

yeah....and the contaminated fuel only kicks in over the same area....spook sensitive fuel.

[newtronbom]

You do not have to be a professional to pass an exam......I should know.

Going the extra mile and knowing what you are doing while doing it is also very different.

You really think the military pass system is much different to the rest of the countries attitude to passing you even if you fail ??

I know of a western military guy that was brought out here to teach some specific procedures to your so called highly educated individuals and he failed them all because...gee whiz....they were not up to scratch. He got sent home for not passing the spoilt military brats and was told 'that is not how it is done here, you cannot fail them'.....seems no different in the military than elsewhere...just higher class of such.

You should know the difference with your 100 ++ hours.

Can't say that you're wrong. I am only going on the people I have met myself and I admit I can only have seen a fraction of the big picture. Having said that though, I too have met a few western experts, some of whom have written off their students who in their opinion had no talent and no future. When those same students came under the study of another instructor in a different field, he was full of praise. While there are more than a few "spoiled brats" in the system, there are also some good ones. We get the same in our culture too - maybe not to the same extent - but there just the same. The attitude and approach of the instructor plays a major role in the response to the students anywhere. Here in the end though, you are correct in that a lot depends on who your daddy is and who you know. I agree. I still think though, that it is far more difficult in the military here than in a normal situation. Even the Thais, can't afford to lose planes and people. I also don't believe your guy was told "you can't fail them" - more that was what his opinion/reaction was. If they are so incompetent, why don't more jets fall out of the sky? Last news I heard on the 3rd crash was suspected tail rotor failure. We will see.

[Dag]

Dont forget that with no civil heli operations here to speak of, their experience with them is behind closed doors and nowhere near the exposure or experience of the west.

Whatever went wrong it is for sure a mixture of things....because the same thing happening at the same time to 3 machines is just not realistic....unless the spooks did get involved.

I firmly believe it is a mixture of the face saving phenomenon which would incorporate pilot error, inexperience, training and probably instrumentation.

When the blackhawk crashed 2 other machines turned away and made a sounder judgement to land and wait...one was an environmental departments machine...the other cannot remember now......that same decision should have been made by the blackhawk...why not ??

Anyway...accidents happen everywhere, so they do not have the sole copyright on that.

I have had several friends and acquaintances lose their lives over the years in those wonderful machines.

[Trembly]

I think we should all take a moment to remember that Asian equipment husbandry is almost uniformly wank (with notable exceptions to the North East of the continent). The 'first principles' are apparently not part of the cultural consciousness.

If you walk past some of the local machine-shops that are still around in Bangkok you will see what I mean. Same with most of the other mechanical contraptions devised or modified in Asia. Have a good listen to the vehicles (of any origin) that ply these roads and you will often hear the sound of suffering machinery.

I don't think that it is a coincidence that the Japanese, for example, have considerably more rigorous and definite ideas about the physical world around them than Thais.

The Gurkhas have consistently shocking kit husbandry and they are part of the British Army (paid, trained and equipped).

I'm half Thai myself and I really don't mind saying so; it is the plain truth of mine eyes.

[Trembly]

One rather pedantic correction :

I think we should all take a moment to remember that Asian equipment husbandry is almost uniformly wank (with notable exceptions to the North East of the continent). The 'first principles' are apparently not common currency in the cultural consciousness.

If you walk past some of the local machine-shops that are still around in Bangkok you will see what I mean. Same with most of the other mechanical contraptions devised or modified in Asia. Have a good listen to the vehicles (of any origin) that ply these roads and you will often hear the sound of suffering machinery.

I don't think that it is a coincidence that the Japanese, for example, have considerably more rigorous and definite ideas about the physical world around them than Thais.

The Gurkhas have consistently shocking kit husbandry and they are part of the British Army (paid, trained and equipped).

I'm half Thai myself and I really don't mind saying so; it is the plain truth of mine eyes.

[newtronbom]

One rather pedantic correction :

I think we should all take a moment to remember that Asian equipment husbandry is almost uniformly wank (with notable exceptions to the North East of the continent). The 'first principles' are apparently not common currency in the cultural consciousness.

If you walk past some of the local machine-shops that are still around in Bangkok you will see what I mean. Same with most of the other mechanical contraptions devised or modified in Asia. Have a good listen to the vehicles (of any origin) that ply these roads and you will often hear the sound of suffering machinery.

I don't think that it is a coincidence that the Japanese, for example, have considerably more rigorous and definite ideas about the physical world around them than Thais.

The Gurkhas have consistently shocking kit husbandry and they are part of the British Army (paid, trained and equipped).

I'm half Thai myself and I really don't mind saying so; it is the plain truth of mine eyes.

You are 100% right about the usual attitude towards machinery here. I have still not pinned down the reason for this either. Way back, when I still believed I could change things in the world, I tried to change this with some of the people I had got to know. I explained, argued, persuaded and I demonstrated what I meant in case I was not being clear(my Thai was a bit limited back then). Zero. I am sure more than a few could see what I was on about, A couple offered me a beer and said "Jai Yen" it's bad luck to fiddle with something that works. Doesn't need fixing. I now know there is no single word in the Thai language for "Maintenance". I even gave the example of taking good care of a buffalo, so he keeps working. But he's not a machine I was told. Every now and then though, you will see an exception to this rule. I regularly pass this house where the owner has an ancient Austin-Morris of what model I don't know, but it's in "mint condition". He can be seen every weekend working on it. I had passed him a couple of times before I stopped one day and asked him what he was fixing. Nothing he replied. You need to work on a machine regular and take care of it, if you want it to stay in good condition. Don't you know that? I can't remember the exact words he used next, but they basically meant that "Thai people can teach you foreigners some things". When I left, it must have taken at least 5 mins for my jaw to catch up with me. I believe the Military (all branches) does have a maintenance program. As someone posted though, the budget they have would dictate how much they can do. Whether they are trained to understand the reasons for maintenance, or whether they are just following orders, it's hard to say. The ones who I know around here understand it, though they get others to do it for them. It's mainly an attitude/culture thing and not laziness. What you say regarding the Japanese is also true, but then no one is like the Japanese anywhere. I taught English there for 7 months before I couldn't take it any more. Too different for me. Good to visit, but not to stay. They are generally nice people though, despite their strange ways. Even a few "Yakuza" I got to know at a couple of night spots I used to go to, weren't too bad. Always very polite - like most Japanese I've met. Just different.

[newtronbom]

Dont forget that with no civil heli operations here to speak of, their experience with them is behind closed doors and nowhere near the exposure or experience of the west.

Whatever went wrong it is for sure a mixture of things....because the same thing happening at the same time to 3 machines is just not realistic....unless the spooks did get involved.

I firmly believe it is a mixture of the face saving phenomenon which would incorporate pilot error, inexperience, training and probably instrumentation.

When the blackhawk crashed 2 other machines turned away and made a sounder judgement to land and wait...one was an environmental departments machine...the other cannot remember now......that same decision should have been made by the blackhawk...why not ??

Anyway...accidents happen everywhere, so they do not have the sole copyright on that.

I have had several friends and acquaintances lose their lives over the years in those wonderful machines.

I too Dag, have lost a few to "rattlers". Why is it, that private operators are so few and far between here? I know of only one and they fly VIPs to a few hotels - or used to from the old airport and may still do from the new one. I would think there is a good demand, though with the bad rep T/L has, how many would use them is hard to say. Could it be too many restrictions? Price would not matter to many Thais. There are quite a few private planes here though. Owned by both Thais and foreigners. Helicopters are so common in NZ where I come from. Many farmers own one and a lot use them to go shopping in town. Same with light aircraft(some of those ARE held together with tape and wire. I've seen it) though there are not many things that will stop the likes of a Piper Cub - bar losing a wing, engine failure just means putting it down quicker than planned. They glide a long way with no power as will a Cessna 172. Accidents will always happen regardless. Meticulous care and maintenance just keep the odds down to a minimum. Most people though, seem to think that accidents only happen to others and not them, is my experience.