Obama Announces Deal To Raise Debt Limit, Cut Spending

[Jingthing]

Tea party people, almost by definition now, basically OPPOSE any increase in taxes, including letting TEMPORARY tax reductions like the Bush one expire. A good portion of them are bona fide ANARCHISTS and oppose ANY taxes at all! That is basically an INSANE, destructive, magical thinking type of position. That is why liberals like me think their movement is juvenile and deeply dangerous. You gave a link talking about the need for cuts AND more taxes, which is actually a liberal position, not a radical right wing tea party position. You just falsely labeled that link representing tea party. WRONG. If you are for tax increases as well as cuts, you are not tea party. So welcome comrade to the liberal fold!

Also, the tea people are total hypocrites. For a long time now, personally I have been for radical tax reform, including ending the sacred cow mortgage interest deduction. You will notice tea party people, the magical thinkers who imagine America is so exceptional the rules of math don't apply, pretty much NEVER are in favor of radical change like that that will hit THEM in the pocket. As most are right wing WHITE Christian HOME OWNERS with mortgages. They aren't real patriots as they delusionally paint themselves; patriots means being happy to STEP UP and sacrifice PERSONALLY.

BTW, when Obama caved in on allowing the Bush tax cuts to stand, that's when many real liberals lost faith in Obama. He caves in too easily to the radical right wing. Sadly, he is our only choice.

Of course I can't speak for all liberals, but I can say it is a typical liberal position to agree that long term debt is definitely a problem, but that in the shorter term, massive unemployment is a much more serious and acute problem. Without most people who want to work actually working, there is no hope to tackle the debt, and no, we don't believe in the BS trickle down Reaganomics voodoo either.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Jingthing

[cloudhopper]

The whole argument about sovereign states needing tax money to balance their budgets cracks me up. All the tax money ever paid was first loaned into existence by the very state that supposedly needs it. That is not nor has it ever been the purpose of taxes.

[flying]

Of course I can't speak for all liberals, but I can say it is a typical liberal position to agree that long term debt is definitely a problem, but that in the shorter term, massive unemployment is a much more serious and acute problem. Without most people who want to work actually working, there is no hope to tackle the debt, and no, we don't believe in the BS trickle down Reaganomics voodoo either.

Yet you obviously agree with the raising of the debt...Calling anyone who opposes raising it a terrorist/anarchist

Then please by all means explain how raising the debt ceiling will help massive unemployment?

Perhaps you will also explain how the 700 Billion Bailout/TARP created more jobs all the while increasing the debt?

Oh how about QE1 & QE2 soon to be followed surely by QE3 because they just created more debt that needs buying....Tell us how having to monetize our debt & pay interest to the FED who gladly buys it for a price.... that newly created debt... as none else really wants to anymore....Tell us how that all creates more jobs? Please do

The only BS here is the trickle down waterfall debt helps anything at all.

Edited August 4, 2011 by flying

[maiphedmaiaroi]

WW3 isnt to far away.

Dont worry we will all be fine

[snarky66]

Of course I can't speak for all liberals, but I can say it is a typical liberal position to agree that long term debt is definitely a problem, but that in the shorter term, massive unemployment is a much more serious and acute problem. Without most people who want to work actually working, there is no hope to tackle the debt, and no, we don't believe in the BS trickle down Reaganomics voodoo either.

1) The Bush tax cuts were a stimulus plan

2) Raising taxes in & of itself will not balance the budget. It is a spit in the ocean. Cutting spending is the real solution, the one obama rejects.

3) We already tried the obama $787 billion stimulus plan which failed. Possibly because only 6% went to shovel ready jobs & most of the rest went to union officials & vote buying.

[chuckd]

Tea party people, almost by definition now, basically OPPOSE any increase in taxes, including letting TEMPORARY tax reductions like the Bush one expire. A good portion of them are bona fide ANARCHISTS and oppose ANY taxes at all! That is basically an INSANE, destructive, magical thinking type of position. That is why liberals like me think their movement is juvenile and deeply dangerous. You gave a link talking about the need for cuts AND more taxes, which is actually a liberal position, not a radical right wing tea party position. You just falsely labeled that link representing tea party. WRONG. If you are for tax increases as well as cuts, you are not tea party. So welcome comrade to the liberal fold!

Also, the tea people are total hypocrites. For a long time now, personally I have been for radical tax reform, including ending the sacred cow mortgage interest deduction. You will notice tea party people, the magical thinkers who imagine America is so exceptional the rules of math don't apply, pretty much NEVER are in favor of radical change like that that will hit THEM in the pocket. As most are right wing WHITE Christian HOME OWNERS with mortgages. They aren't real patriots as they delusionally paint themselves; patriots means being happy to STEP UP and sacrifice PERSONALLY.

BTW, when Obama caved in on allowing the Bush tax cuts to stand, that's when many real liberals lost faith in Obama. He caves in too easily to the radical right wing. Sadly, he is our only choice.

Of course I can't speak for all liberals, but I can say it is a typical liberal position to agree that long term debt is definitely a problem, but that in the shorter term, massive unemployment is a much more serious and acute problem. Without most people who want to work actually working, there is no hope to tackle the debt, and no, we don't believe in the BS trickle down Reaganomics voodoo either.

"As most are right wing WHITE Christian HOME OWNERS with mortgages."

Also known as..."tax payers".

Your criticism of a political movement you disagree with is totally out of line. It is what we expect from liberals, but out of line nonetheless.

[koheesti]

WW3 isnt to far away.

Dont worry we will all be fine

Actually, you're right. All the debt owed to China and others will disappear after we win the war. The longer we wait, the more difficult winning will be. I mean, really, how else will we (the USA) get out of this ever-increasing mountain of debt? War is the only realistic answer. It won't be any long, drawn out war with foot soldiers. It'll likely be the quick missile strike variety - except with much, much larger missiles. Is there a more realistic option?

[Jingthing]

"As most are right wing WHITE Christian HOME OWNERS with mortgages."

Also known as..."tax payers".

Your criticism of a political movement you disagree with is totally out of line. It is what we expect from liberals, but out of line nonetheless.

I think you are out of line. To suggest that only right wing WHITE Christian HOME OWNERS with mortgages are taxpayers is despicable. The most politically active and vocal liberals are actually often very wealthy. I described the demographics of the tea party ACCURATELY.

Next ...

[Jingthing]

Again, I made an accurate observation about the race/class demographics of the tea party. Why is that off limits? I don't consider all tea party people racist, but I do consider their ideology very misguided.

I also know a lot of them are for reforming/simplifying the tax code as am I (not including their more radical wing who wants NOT taxes). Can someone point me to tea party sources supporting ending special breaks for real estate owners (mainly the mortgage interest deduction)? Bring it on. If you're going to streamline the tax system, all such special breaks for the wealthier MUST end. You want to balance the budget, don't you? I think you really don't, you just don't want tax money spent on people you don't like so much, hint hint.

It is funny that these tea party people didn't raise their ugly heads under Bush who was a mad spender, the medicare funding thing which failed to regulate costs for medications, etc. as it should have done, the biggest and most expensive mistake in American history with the Iraq war which he blatantly lied to start. You can't fail to wonder whether it was a coincidence that this right wing VERY WHITE movement didn't get rolling until the black man with a Muslim name became president. We aren't children. The facts are there.

BTW, there was a strong implication that the tea party people are a special class because they pay taxes. A recent Fox News propaganda tactic is to suggest that most Americans don't pay taxes, as if to imply poorer people don't have the same rights as the wealthier.

http://www.groundreport.com/Business/Tea-Party-Racism/2921697

Edited August 4, 2011 by Jingthing

[chuckd]

"As most are right wing WHITE Christian HOME OWNERS with mortgages."

Also known as..."tax payers".

Your criticism of a political movement you disagree with is totally out of line. It is what we expect from liberals, but out of line nonetheless.

I think you are out of line. To suggest that only right wing WHITE Christian HOME OWNERS with mortgages are taxpayers is despicable. The most politically active and vocal liberals are actually often very wealthy. I described the demographics of the tea party ACCURATELY.

Next ...

As Koheesti so succinctly pointed out, I did not say ONLY those you seem to hold in such contempt are taxpayers. I said those you so abhor are also known as "tax payers" as you asserted by calling them HOME OWNERS. Property taxes are a way of life in virtually every municipality, city, county and state. HOME OWNERS pay property taxes.

By your own definition that would make ALL of them tax payers.

You said it, I did not.

Over and out...

[koheesti]

Again, I made an accurate observation about the race/class demographics of the tea party. Why is that off limits? I don't consider all tea party people racist, but I do consider their ideology very misguided.

I also know a lot of them are for reforming/simplifying the tax code as am I (not including their more radical wing who wants NOT taxes). Can someone point me to tea party sources supporting ending special breaks for real estate owners (mainly the mortgage interest deduction)? Bring it on. If you're going to streamline the tax system, all such special breaks for the wealthier MUST end. You want to balance the budget, don't you? I think you really don't, you just don't want tax money spent on people you don't like so much, hint hint.

It is funny that these tea party people didn't raise their ugly heads under Bush who was a mad spender, the medicare funding thing which failed to regulate costs for medications, etc. as it should have done, the biggest and most expensive mistake in American history with the Iraq war which he blatantly lied to start. You can't fail to wonder whether it was a coincidence that this right wing VERY WHITE movement didn't get rolling until the black man with a Muslim name became president. We aren't children. The facts are there.

BTW, there was a strong implication that the tea party people are a special class because they pay taxes. A recent Fox News propaganda tactic is to suggest that most Americans don't pay taxes, as if to imply poorer people don't have the same rights as the wealthier.

http://www.groundrep...-Racism/2921697

The Tea Party has it roots in some rant by one of the hosts of a TV show on I think CNBC News. He called for a new Tea Party - it wasn't a partisan idea born from some political party.

I asked before but never got an answer - if taxes are raised, and they bring with them more revenue, WHAT will that new revenue be spent on? If it all goes to servicing the debt I could go along with that but Congress couldn't be trusted to do that. The additional revenue would go to more spending which is something we don't need. It's like I have high credit card bills and take a second job to help pay them off. Only I don't send a check to my credit card company, I go out and buy a new car instead.

[Pakboong]

Yes, the mess Obama left behind. It's all his now. He's been running the show 2.5 years with 2 years in TOTAL control.

Those evil Tea Partiers want us to stop spending when we have no money. Libs want to get more credit cards and borrow from neighbors. I wonder which way the Libs run their own personal finances when they start running low on money? Do they cut their own spending or go get more credit cards?

Neither, they issue the cards.

[Jingthing]

"As most are right wing WHITE Christian HOME OWNERS with mortgages."

Also known as..."tax payers".

Your criticism of a political movement you disagree with is totally out of line. It is what we expect from liberals, but out of line nonetheless.

I think you are out of line. To suggest that only right wing WHITE Christian HOME OWNERS with mortgages are taxpayers is despicable. The most politically active and vocal liberals are actually often very wealthy. I described the demographics of the tea party ACCURATELY.

Next ...

As Koheesti so succinctly pointed out, I did not say ONLY those you seem to hold in such contempt are taxpayers. I said those you so abhor are also known as "tax payers" as you asserted by calling them HOME OWNERS. Property taxes are a way of life in virtually every municipality, city, county and state. HOME OWNERS pay property taxes.

By your own definition that would make ALL of them tax payers.

You said it, I did not.

Over and out...

Renters pay property taxes too. The rents they pay include the property taxes the owners pay. I am not demonizing property owners. I have been one most of my life. I am suggesting that no group should get special breaks. To improve the country's financial health, cuts AND revenue, and a massively simplified tax system with no structural breaks to any group could work wonders.

Given the crash in the US real estate market that many experts agree may take 20 years to really come back, and it should never be a BUBBLE again, now would be a perfect time to kill that artificial subsidy of property so called values. When the market strengthens again, it should be based on REAL values. Not artificial prop ups.

I think my characterization of the tea party people mostly being FOR keeping the mortgage interest deduction kind of proves my point. They aren't as pure as they act.They shouldn't call themselves tea party patriots then. Patriots are about for the good of the country, not about for what benefits them, against what costs them money.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Jingthing

[Pakboong]

Long term debt/fantasies about balancing the budget anytime soon are minor problems compared to the high probability that tea party economics will lead to a real depression. The crisis NOW is jobs, jobs, jobs, and the truth is the original stimulus spending wasn't nearly BIG ENOUGH

This is the thinking that is the problem

You have it backwards.

Looking for a solution is not the problem.

Stimulus? Not big enough? The word is Bail Out... of top campaign contributors...aka: Too Big Too Fail

It stimulated nothing at all.

Jobs? Watch the report coming out this Friday. Better yet get the real numbers even today.

This new increase has not job 1 in it. There is nothing good in this for true financial reform...just as there was nothing good in the Bail Outs nor the QE 1 or 2

Except for making the problem bigger. Kicking the can once again while growing the problem

Lastly how stupid is it to allow a bunch of folks together who took us to this place & spent what they did not have.....

Nor did they have the brains to budget or to even stop spending like drunken sailors when they knew we were in trouble....

Then ask THEM???? to vote on whether THEY should be allowed more money to spend the rest of our futures.

INSANE

Better to have let those who will be expected to pay it back vote.

Have an emergency vote & let the people decide not the drunken sailors.

We always knew which way they would vote.

Same as allowing heroin addicts to vote on whether they want rehab or more heroin

A first ever Fed audit completed a week ago, disclosed that the stimulus package totaled $16 trillion. That is a lot of money for a broke drunk to be throwing around. Much of that money was loaned to foreign banks at little or no interest.

[maiphedmaiaroi]

WW3 isnt to far away.

Dont worry we will all be fine

Actually, you're right. All the debt owed to China and others will disappear after we win the war. The longer we wait, the more difficult winning will be. I mean, really, how else will we (the USA) get out of this ever-increasing mountain of debt? War is the only realistic answer. It won't be any long, drawn out war with foot soldiers. It'll likely be the quick missile strike variety - except with much, much larger missiles. Is there a more realistic option?

Nucleur war. Mass depopulation. One world goverment. This collapse of america and europe is exactly the plan the elite that really control the usa/uk/israel want all along.

and there is me worry about my new passport earlier today

Edited August 4, 2011 by maiphedmaiaroi

[Jingthing]

Nucleur war. Mass depopulation. One world goverment. This collapse of america and europe is exactly the plan the elite that really control the usa/uk/israel want all along.

and there is me worry about my new passport earlier today

Hard economic times always brings the wacko conspiracy theories out of the woodwork.

[Pakboong]

China holds $2 trillion of U.S debt. If you think of each trillion as one testicle, that's what they're holding...........now cough

Add to that an even larger amount held by the Fed in long dated bonds in order to plug the deficit in the short term. Oroboros the mythical snake eating it's own tail comes to mind.

A key point in this discourse Steely. We seldom agree on anything.

[koheesti]

A first ever Fed audit completed a week ago, disclosed that the stimulus package totaled $16 trillion. That is a lot of money for a broke drunk to be throwing around. Much of that money was loaned to foreign banks at little or no interest.

I think you mean $1.6 trillion, right?

[uptheos]

Well, one thing we do know is that liberal policies aren't hurting America..............Obama hasn't tried any.

[Scott]

A bunch of off-topic, baiting and inflammatory posts have been deleted.

If you want to continue to post, I suggest you leave Israel/Hamas/Gay-marriage and a variety of other topics out of the mix.

[koheesti]

It's not that the minority view tea party shouldn't have full rights, it's about dictating to the majority. If they win the majority, they legitimately get to run the show. But what they recently did in threatening to blow up the global economy and totally destroy the credibility of the US government to pay debts, was indeed economic TERRORISM. Again, patriots they are not. More like very dangerous fundamentalists (hypocritical ones as well, but that's typical of fundamentalists of all kinds).

So the Tea Party is trying to destroy the "credibility of the US government to pay debts"? Are you being serious? That credibility is soon becoming a fairy tale and we have Congress (controllers of the purse strings) to blame.

Edited August 4, 2011 by koheesti

[Jingthing]

It's not that the minority view tea party shouldn't have full rights, it's about dictating to the majority. If they win the majority, they legitimately get to run the show. But what they recently did in threatening to blow up the global economy and totally destroy the credibility of the US government to pay debts, was indeed economic TERRORISM. Again, patriots they are not. More like very dangerous fundamentalists (hypocritical ones as well, but that's typical of fundamentalists of all kinds).

So the Tea Party is trying to destroy the "credibility of the US government to pay debts"? Are you being serious? That credibility is soon becoming a fairy tale and we have Congress (controllers of the purse strings) to blame.

You don't get it. The tea party FORCED their rigid ideology of no new revenue sources or they would have let the US default for the first time in history. That's what made the US a great power in the first place. Go back to history of Alexander Hamilton if you want to understand.

[Pakboong]

A first ever Fed audit completed a week ago, disclosed that the stimulus package totaled $16 trillion. That is a lot of money for a broke drunk to be throwing around. Much of that money was loaned to foreign banks at little or no interest.

I think you mean $1.6 trillion, right?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2752150/posts

http://gangstergovernment.squarespace.com/blog/2011/7/21/the-fed-audit.html

http://sanders.enews.senate.gov/mail/util.cfm?gpiv=2100075526.162188.594&gen=1

http://mbcalyn.wordpress.com/2011/07/21/the-fed-audit-newsroom-u-s-senator-bernie-sanders-vermont/

http://cryptogon.com/?p=23716

http://leconomistamascherato.blogspot.com/2011/07/fed-audit.html

These are blogs but a couple are a US Senator's site. No reason for this stuff to make the mainstream and you cannot make it up.

[uptheos]

4 out of 5 Americans supported the Dem's position on revenue increases. Dem's control 2/3 of government. But Tea Party wins. Democracy is broken.

[Credo]

Before I came to Asia, I worked full-time and had a small farm. I had 3 new vehicles, I never kept a vehicle more than 2 years. I had two tractors, traded every few years and a professional career.

Gas/fuel tax--didn't have to pay it, it was a business expense, deducted at the end of the year.

Vehicle and interest payments-- tax deductible

Lived in the country--land considered agricultural--property tax: $33.00 (Tax on the house and adjoining land: $0.99--yes 99 cents).

One year, I even qualified for earned income credit.

The year I moved to Asia, I quit work and was unemployed for over six months, living on the West Coast waiting for a start date in Asia. My income was negligible, but it was the MOST Federal income tax I ever paid. For the first time in my life, I realized it was the poorer segment of the socio-economic strata who paid for everything.

The Tea Party are holding the country hostage. Cutting expenses, most definitely, but we all must pay our fair share of taxes. I only had to do it once, and yes it hurt. The Tea Party are extremely selfish and the only interests they protect are their own.

[Jingthing]

4 out of 5 Americans supported the Dem's position on revenue increases. Dem's control 2/3 of government. But Tea Party wins. Democracy is broken.

Agreed. Democracy depends on the active participation of most citizens (yes that means more than voting and most eligible Americans don't even vote). This is a case where the most passionate and active radical fundamentalist small minority won the day. I recently posted an article suggesting this is how the minority Islamic fundamentalist party in Egypt intends to take over power in their country. If this recent tea party terror action doesn't light a fire under the asses of the silent majority in the USA to become as passionate as this dangerous minority, yes, much more damage will be done.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Jingthing

[snarky66]

No tax hikes. Correct.

We win. Obama is weak & incompetent.

[koheesti]

A first ever Fed audit completed a week ago, disclosed that the stimulus package totaled $16 trillion. That is a lot of money for a broke drunk to be throwing around. Much of that money was loaned to foreign banks at little or no interest.

I think you mean $1.6 trillion, right?

http://www.freerepub...s/2752150/posts

http://gangstergover...-fed-audit.html

http://sanders.enews...8.594&gen=1

http://mbcalyn.wordp...anders-vermont/

http://cryptogon.com/?p=23716

http://leconomistama.../fed-audit.html

These are blogs but a couple are a US Senator's site. No reason for this stuff to make the mainstream and you cannot make it up.

Those links are all just quoting the same article.

$16 trillion is one super helluva lot of money ($16,000,000,000,000). There is no way the US, EU and Japan combined could loan anywhere near that much to anyone.

[snarky66]

The solution to the problem is to vote vote obama out at the next election.

[Jingthing]

No tax hikes. Correct.

We win. Obama is weak & incompetent.

He should have let the t.p. terrorists force the US into default for the first time in history? However, I am sad to say I agree with you somewhat. He had a card he SHOULD have played. As he was dealing with reckless terrorists, he should have announced he would reject the no revenue demand no matter what and if he didn't get a REASONABLE compromise on his desk, he would order the lifting of the debt ceiling HIMSELF based on executive constitutional authority. I think he made a huge error not doing that. That also would have fired up his base as well. The left is stuck with him and it isn't realistic to oppose him in a primary. All we can do is hope he grows a bigger pair, and SOON. As he is now, he is simply not inspiring.

Edited August 4, 2011 by Jingthing