Mr T From Humble Background?

[wamberal]

During the early to mid eighties I did a lot of consulting to a very large Thai government agency.

I had lunch with Taksin one day, he was a Police Captain then, and head of the police EDP department, and he also had an IBM franchise.

My Thai colleague who arranged the lunch also arranged for me to visit the Shinawatra Silk operation in Chiang Mai along the way.

Taksin struck me at the time as a personable and clever young man. Apart from the offer of a little after-lunch relaxation, there was nothing devious or underhanded in his manner or approach.

[KhunPadThai]

I thought that Baker and Phongpaichit wrote that his Thai-Chinese family was tax farmers in CM for generations.

[britmaveric]

I get the perception there is no middle ground with fearless leader either you hate him or you love him. This seems to be the case with most Thai people I have talked to about this topic.

[skylar]

The dates he is out of the country are very convenient, if they are accurate... many a Thai with Communist tendencies/suspicions left Thailand in the 70s to escape repression and came back at a more convenient time.

[taxexile]

thought that Baker and Phongpaichit wrote that his Thai-Chinese family was tax farmers in CM for generations.

since 1908.

before that they were gambling tax farmers in chantaburi.

[chownah]

thought that Baker and Phongpaichit wrote that his Thai-Chinese family was tax farmers in CM for generations.

since 1908.

before that they were gambling tax farmers in chantaburi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is a 'gambling tax farmer'? or just 'tax farmer' for that matter. Also, how could they have been tax farmers in CM for generations, wasn't Thaksin's grandfather from China?

Edited October 30, 2005 by chownah

[Narachon]

I actually thought this thread was about "Mr. T"....

"I pity the fool..."

[Indo-Siam]

Afew year back, I got curious about Taksin, and I went digging around - and I satisfied myself that the following were true:

1) While attending a Masters Degree program in Kentucky, Taksin himself (not his wife) worked at KFC, selling chicken.

2) While he was attending the Doctoral Degre program in Texas, his wife worked flipping burgers at a Burger King. Additionally, he had a pre-dawn newspaper route.

My conclusion - whatever else you can say about this guy and his wife, they were indistrious, hard-working, and they were not prima donnas.

3) Before he got his initial police contract for a network of pagers, he was a couple of million US dollars in debt - from failed Thai business ventures in a hotel, and in a motion picture distribution business.

So - he knows what it is like to be less than broke.

This is not a lazy guy who "had it handed to him", or who built up his success from a high starting position. As far as I could tell, he did it on his own. But - his childhood was mid-to-upper middle class, and as a relation to a quite wealthy extended family.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

[taxexile]

thaksins great grandfather arrived in thailand from kwantung in the late 1860's aged about 10.

since the early 18c. the thai government auctioned the right to collect taxes on various goods and services , and allowed tax farmers to profit by collecting more than the auction bid.

most of the tax farmers were immigrant chinese .

This is not a lazy guy who "had it handed to him", or who built up his success from a high starting position. As far as I could tell, he did it on his own. But - his childhood was mid-to-upper middle class, and as a relation to a quite wealthy extended family.

he is not lazy , he has known business failure , and he was astute enough to see the business possibilities in mass communications in thailand.

but to say he did it on his own i think is missing the point.

he was extremely well connected , both through his family and through his wifes family , and through the contacts made during his posting as a police officer in kukrits office ,and i doubt if he could have achieved as much without drawing on some of those connections.

thats not to take anything away from his undoubted business acumen

i have a grudging admiration for him , in much the same way as i did for margaret thatcher.

thailand could do much worse than have him as pm.

[Neeranam]

i have a grudging admiration for him , in much the same way as i did for margaret thatcher.

I have a real hate for this guy, much like I had with Margret Thatcher.

I couldn't give a toss about his business acumen, so what?

Will Bill Gates be the next US president as he is a rich man?

He is a total &lt;deleted&gt;!

Bring back Chuan Leekpai.

[Nordlys]

My conclusion - whatever else you can say about this guy and his wife, they were indistrious, hard-working, and they were not prima donnas.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But perhaps not law-abiding? I can't see how they could be legally employed outside campus being in US on student visa. It wasn't allowed in my time (80's) although I too, had an off-campus part time job working illegally at a Japanese restaurant on weekends. Whatever they earned from working at KFC and Burger King, I'm not so quick to believe that really helped pay their tuition and board unless they worked full time. And if their financial well-being was so grave that they had to depend their living in US on Mcjobs, they could not be admitted to a college in US in the first place as they had to submit the proof of financial self-reliance which is required for obtaining a document issued from US INS called I-20 necessary for student visa application. And as international students they were not eligible for financial aid in the US. If their studies in US was state sponsored (by Thai gov't), I don't see why they would risk themselves being caught by INS and face deportation.

[taxexile]

my grudging admiration has nothing to do with his wealth , its to do with his abilities.

thatcher was not wealthy when she entered politics.

why do you hate him so much ?

why do you think he is so bad for thailand ?

[taxexile]

If their studies in US was state sponsored (by Thai gov't), I don't see why they would risk themselves being caught by INS and face deportation.

maybe they worked purely for the experience of working and for the self improvement that work can bring to already disciplined people.

the pocket money they received would have been useful as would have the english language experience.

[Heng]

This is not a lazy guy who "had it handed to him", or who built up his success from a high starting position.  As far as I could tell, he did it on his own.  But - his childhood was mid-to-upper middle class, and as a relation to a quite wealthy extended family.

Cheers!

Steve

Indo-Siam

People can't choose their starting points so it's hardly his fault that his parents and grandparents, etc. didn't squander their family's assets before they passed away like a lot of other families.

As for the work angle in the US... in a country where you have millions living on welfare and unemployment, wanting to work or go into business had the "illegal stigma" about on par with speeding or not abiding by gasoline rationing (my dad got his start pumping gas before renting out a back room at the gas station and turning it into Austin's first Asian grocery store.... and then eventually buying the gas station and turning into Austin's first Asian supermarket). My parents both got greencards after a few years in country, Thaksin and Khunying P. might have been able to also.

[xbusman]

Going to guess here again. People that come from "average" stock who drive to become vastly wealthy begin at a early age with a very strong work habit and frugal habits. Often these are so deeply ingrained that after accumulating the wealth they still work non stop 24/7/365 and wear inexpensive clothes, review the dinner bill carefully, etc.

I would guess that as students they lived exceedingly frugally, worked every spare moment in any job that they could get, and came back with more money than they left with.

Even as I review the comments by other members, I can see that Kuhn and Kuhnying never went home and watched the soaps on TV or hung at the Som Tam cafe all night. They were trying new businesses, working two and three jobs, mixing with people in power, looking for opportunity.

[Heng]

Going to guess here again. People that come from "average" stock who drive to become vastly wealthy begin at a early age with a very strong work habit and frugal habits. Often these are so deeply ingrained that after accumulating the wealth they still work non stop 24/7/365 and wear inexpensive clothes, review the dinner bill carefully, etc.

I would guess that as students they lived exceedingly frugally, worked every spare moment in any job that they could get, and came back with more money than they left with.

Yes, there are many types. I have friends who were born well to do but work very hard and don't splurge (not exactly buying only from clearance or factory outlets, but not only buying ready to wear at Gaysorn either) and then you have those who live day to day, partying/spending/not working, waiting for their fat inheritance. It's hardly a crime when those from the first group reward themselves with expensive toys for their OWN hard work.

[mbkudu]

I always think it interesting that the poor now never want to admit to being poor, but the rich now love to say how poor they 'were'.

[meadish_sweetball]

He strikes me as a truly industrious man as well, one who wouldn't squander away his time discussing politicians on a web board.

To return to the original question, my GF knows what's in Baker's/Phongpaichit's book to be the truth, which, like Indo-Siam and taxexile also suggests, is that he was not brought up in a rich family, but had rich people as well as relatively high-ranking military officers in the extended family.

[Johpa]

thought that Baker and Phongpaichit wrote that his Thai-Chinese family was tax farmers in CM for generations.

since 1908.

before that they were gambling tax farmers in chantaburi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is a 'gambling tax farmer'? or just 'tax farmer' for that matter. Also, how could they have been tax farmers in CM for generations, wasn't Thaksin's grandfather from China?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tax farmer is just another term for tax collector. Prior to the 19th century taxes in Thailand were usually paid, for those who were not slaves, as corvee labor. Most men had to go to work or go to war for several months a year for the crown or the local lord who was in turn under the domination of the nearest crown. This was the tax as the older Thai societies were non-monetary. It is also the most common explanation given as to why Thai culture became matrilocal (husbands settled with the wife's family) as the husbands often did not return from their corvee labor. And it is perhaps the reason you see women in control of the market place and the economy of the home although this is changing with the combination of East Asian and Western influence to the detriment of women in Thailand

Greatly simplified, in the 19th century the Thai economy began to monetize with foreign imports and exports. There was a need to collect more than just labor, expecially from the non-landowning full time laborers who were mostly imported Chinese. Since the Thais came from a non-monetary financial system (yes there were various types of "coins" used in limited circles) , they were not on the top of the list to be hired to collect revenues. But since even the poorest Chinese peasant had a very good understanding of money,debt, and interest, the Crown gave monetary economic monopolies to Chinese people, including the right to collect taxes, of which a variable percentage could be kept by the tax collector. Ther monetary economy was ceded to the Chinese from the begining.

Toxin is the end result of this historical process, a Thai-Chinese man attempting to become Emperor of Thailand.

[taxexile]

by the end of the 19th century the gov. had replaced the tax farm system of collection by centralised collection , but not for taxation on gambling , opium and liquor.

as the chinese were the main consumers of those products the government found it efficient to continue to allow chinese entrepreneurs to collect those duties.

these rights to collect taxes were auctioned.

[sbk]

My conclusion - whatever else you can say about this guy and his wife, they were indistrious, hard-working, and they were not prima donnas.

But perhaps not law-abiding? I can't see how they could be legally employed outside campus being in US on student visa. It wasn't allowed in my time (80's) although I too, had an off-campus part time job working illegally at a Japanese restaurant on weekends. Whatever they earned from working at KFC and Burger King, I'm not so quick to believe that really helped pay their tuition and board unless they worked full time. And if their financial well-being was so grave that they had to depend their living in US on Mcjobs, they could not be admitted to a college in US in the first place as they had to submit the proof of financial self-reliance which is required for obtaining a document issued from US INS called I-20 necessary for student visa application. And as international students they were not eligible for financial aid in the US. If their studies in US was state sponsored (by Thai gov't), I don't see why they would risk themselves being caught by INS and face deportation.

If their studies in US was state sponsored (by Thai gov't), I don't see why they would risk themselves being caught by INS and face deportation.

maybe they worked purely for the experience of working and for the self improvement that work can bring to already disciplined people.

the pocket money they received would have been useful as would have the english language experience.

Assuming he violated the terms of his student visa, I find this quite hypocritical, he thinks its alright to violate the terms of a US visa but god help any foreigner in Thailand who does so?

[taxexile]

arent foriegn students in the usa allowed to do up to 15 or so hours of work a week ?

most of us did things in our younger days that we probably speak out against now.

thaksin is guilty of far worse acts of hypocrisy than working illegaly as a foriegn student and then 30 years later not repealing the immigration rules in his own country .

[sbk]

arent foriegn students in the usa allowed to do up to 15 or so hours of work a week ?

most of us did things in our younger days that we probably speak out against now.

thaksin is guilty of far worse acts of hypocrisy than working illegaly as a foriegn student and then 30 years later not repealing the immigration rules in his own country .

Nordlys said yes, allowed to work but not off campus. And I don't think he was quite that young was he?

And yes, of course he is guilty of far worse but the hypocrisy speaks to state of mind, I believe. Shows an attitude that the rules only apply to others not himself.

[taxexile]

Shows an attitude that the rules only apply to others not himself.

cant argue with that.

[chownah]

It was my understanding that at the end of the 19th century the northern provinces were not actually under the control of the central gov't and that they didn't really come under central rule until after WWII....and that even then it was a struggle. Is this right?

[taxexile]

chiang mai was formerly an independant state , between 1870 to about 1900 bangkok gradually imposed control and sidelined the local rulers.

thaksins great grandfather moved to that area around that period to take up the opportunities presented by the change of rule.

he collected taxes from gambling houses in mae rim and doi saket.

although it was part of the thai state , it was remote from bangkok , and until the railway was completed in 1921 the journey from chiang mai to bangkok took up to 3 months (by boat , horse and elephant!!)

i cant find any info. on whether there was any kind of struggle between chiang mai and bangkok , but i cant imagine the chiang mai rulers would have just given over power to bangkok without some thing in return.

[plachon]

Interesting dialogue on Mr Big guys n' gals, but still a bit inconclusive as to the original quest to know what the ordinary Somchai in the street thinks about his origins. Whereas some of us thrive on searching out info and reading up on the latest Baker & Pongpaichit tome to find these fascinating bits of trivia on Numero Uno, Thais generally-speaking are not such ferrets for facts, although they will travel to the ends of the country to get their fortunes told or consult a lottery ticket soothsayer I note.

So, please don't give up yet, try your somtam lady in the soi or the next taxi driver (mines of info), if the Mrs refuses to look up from her manicure in front of the telly, or the g/f says, "Farang fink too mut, Have another beer honey".

Chownah, I believe the last Jao Muang / princeling to give up autonomy in the North was in Nan, who ceded authority to Bangkok around the early 1930s, but I may be off the mark on this so am ready to be corrected. I can easily imagine it being a law unto itself, until the road cut across the mountains from Phrae and central authority could be set up.

[ilyushin]

He has lived a much better life than anyone on this forum. He looks like he came from a low class family ( bottom feeders). Dad was MP must have been really bad.